I am considering a new gun for Christmas,(Yes its the season to start planting hints with the wife for the present you want.)

After a fair amount of research and guilty day dreaming about ether a Weatherby vanguard sporter 30-06 or... a Ruger Mark ll in 350 Rem Mag. I'm stuck. I can't have both. I need to get her something too and she doesn't shoot.

Price is not the issue as they are about the same price new in the box.
I hand load so ammo is not an issue either.
Both are walnut and blue so appearance isn't an issue. Although the fit, finish and smoothness of the action in the Weatherby is noticably better though the Ruger will smooth out with a little TLC. I have two others and know this to be true.
Both have adjustable triggers so that isn't an issue.
I have a spare scope that will work with either, so that isn't an issue.

You see my delema. What do you think? Roy or Ruger?

What's your intended purposes and what else do you have to run?

Dober

Either will probably be used at no more than 300yrds Max. Eyes are the limiting factor.
As for others I don't need either one of these guns. I just find both of them very attractive for different reasons. I have a 06 in a 7600 and I have a 35 Whelen too.
The biggest animule I would use them for would be maybe Moose or Bison. I don't think there is a big bear in my future, though I wouldn't turn down a hunt if I win the Lottery!

The availability of ammunition being found any where you are likely to travel too would dictate the 30-06. Unless you just want to be different, then the 350 Mag. Have fun with which ever you get...there's no bad choice.

It sounds like you should pick the rifle, and not the cartridge. Sounds as if you are flush with Rugers, maybe try a Howa (Vanguard).

Well if I could get a Vanguard Sporter in 350 rem mag, this thread would not have been started. Love them or hate them, Rugers, both Mark 11s and Hawkeyes are very rough right out of the box. And that is giving them the best of it. I have two bought new and both were initally very disappointing. The thing that sells me Rugers is that they sell so many interesting calibers at reasonable prices and the guns can be good shooters and they appear to be uncommonly rugged.

Conversely, unless you are interested in standard calibers and/or the 257 or 300 Roy, Weatherby makes it a little more difficult to say "Gimme!" The Vanguard Sporter is well made, beautiful, smooth and offers a 24" barrel and 5 shot capacity in most standard calibers. And based on everything I've read or heard, shoots all the calibers it's offered in, very, very well! It's just not offered in a 350 Rem Mag with a 22" barrel.

Pity, but that's what makes horse racing.

Guess of the two I'd be going with the spark plug 350 just to be a bit different.

Maybe even in a M7 CDL...grin

Dober

Well Dober, I'd just bet that a M7 CDL would be a very fine piece of work, but somewhat more expensive than the Ruger. I could be wrong. The Ruger can be had sub-$500. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

thanks,

Around here the Hawkeye's go for just under 600 now, not sure on the M7 CDL but it is most likely a bit more, but not much more I'd guess....I think

Dober

i believe as people age they begin to steer away from recoil. since you mentioned your eyes affect the limits of your shooting, and you already have a 35 for bison, i'd get the 06' who knows, it may end up being the most accurate rifle you own.

.350 mag is a hell of a package in a short action. You hand load, so ammo is not an issue. Brass can be easily purchased.



+1 Mark- a .350 Model 7 rocks. Especially a custom shop gun . You can pick them up used if you look around, at a big savings compared to the new ones.

I'm somewhat fond of the 350 rem mag. I'm sure you know the 350 pushes 225's as fast as the -06 pushes 180's.

For some reason the -06 has just never excited me enough to own one. I know what the round can do, and often extol it's virtues. But if I opt for a full length action 30 cal, it'll be a 300 win mag, and for -06 performance, I'll always go with the short action .308 win.

458- I like the way you think. I am VERY fond of the .308 and the 7-08 (which I load for my son).

The Hawkeye's trigger is not adjustable but very good. The Vanguard trigger is like a lottery. I have 3 Vanguards and 2 triggers cleaned up very well. My 257 is the Sporter model your looking at, it required a $110 Timney to get a decent trigger.

458: Thanks for the info on the 225 potential in the 350. I didn't know that. Good Info. My initial interest was in loading the 200grn to 3000fps to get 3800fpe! I'd probably try a Scirocco or Nosler Partition. Very big hammer. If that turned out to be accurate, then I wouldn't load anything else in that rifle. The load uses AA2520 if you want to look it up.

Hotsoup: Thanks for your concern, the problem with my eye is correctable but the problem is with my shooting eye so that even with glasses through a 9x power scope I'd probably not take a 300yrd shot unless it was a very big animule. As for the vanguard 30-06 accuracy, that was my thinking too and the source of my interest in that rifle. Based on what I've read that would seem to be a distinct possiblity too.

Sakoluvr: Very nice group. I'll check out the M7/350.

MagMarc: Right about the Hawkeye trigger, but the 350 I'm interested in is the Mark 11.

Thanks for all the good info so far.

Sorry Hawkeye I should have read more closely. The bad news is that the MarkII is not adjustable either. You have to go back to the plain 77 to get that. You can get a Timney but they are pain to install on the MarkII or change springs. I changed springs in mine and it improved but it is still not great.

Ok, based on the other rifles you have, you don't really NEED either of these guns to fill a hole in you battery. So I would go whith whichever rifle makes you happy.

-Mb

I'm with Dober, The Model 7 CDL 350 mag. is way cool. I've been having a lot of fun with Mine. Recoil?, shoot it on the bench all the time, one handed, and I'm a little Guy. It jumps, but no more than a lot of others.

I prefer the Ruger over the Remington and Vanguard rifles for hunting. The Ruger has control round feeding and a three position safety. In my view a superior design.

As for the cartridges I am a .35" fan. Get the 350. Your thinking about it so get it.

350 Remington Magnum.

Hawkeye,

Guess I'll wade in. I agree with 458 Lott that the 30-06 just doesn't excite me. It is an excellent cartridge, and I once owned one. However, it went so I could buy a 300 WSM when they came out. I have a Remington 673 in 350 RM which I picked up new at a very good price, and I have a Ruger Hawkeye in 358 Winchester. The 358 is way more accurate than it should be. The 350 is a great calibre, but I do sort of wish I had waited until the CDL came out. I said all that to say that of the two rifles and calibres you name, I'd go with the 350 RM. Either way, you won't go wrong.

Consequently, what will you be getting your wife? Mama gets a nice gift with each rifle. I have often said that each of my rifles cost me well over $5,000. The cost of carpeting, dining room suites, etc. just add so much to those rifles.

The 30-06 is the one most tested caliberd in history, has been proving itself in the game fields sincer about 1903..You can never go wrong with it...A 150 gr. at 2900 FPS, a 180 at 2700 FPS and a 220 at 2500 FPS is pretty hard to beat anywhere in the world.

There is no better caliber for the one gun man than a 30-06..Antelope at 400 yards or Lion in the Selous at 50 yards, and many an elephant and buffalo has succumbed to its thunder.

If the 350 is an option and I don't see it as one, then I personally would go on up to the .338 Win.

does wby chamber the 338-o6? i know they have factory ammo for it.

I too vote for the 350 mag. I own the Remington 673 Model and a Ruger stainless / black synthetic stock 350 mag. The 673 is a much heavier rifle so I shoot the Ruger more. I'm leaning towards a model 7 also. Can be had for $719.00 on gunbroker. Very lite rifle compared too the 673.

Ken

There was a CDL 350 mag. @ one of the local shops this summer. I think the tag was $600 or so. it looked good to Me.

I'd go with Ruger Hawkeye, Hawkeye

I'm a Hawkeye too - Univ of Iowa '83.

You basically already have both calibers listed. Your Whelen and the .350 Rem Mag are ballistic twins. But then, maybe that's the draw - if so, I'd go with the .350 for sure.

But, me personally, I'd be planning on the Hawkey in 375 Ruger.

That'd be a great addition to your cabinet - a real sledge hammer on the moose and bison that you list...

Thanks for all the good advice and info. I should add one other piece of info. I'm a 35 guy too. I have a 35 Rem, 358 win and 35 Whelen which pretty much gives me all the 35 Cal bullet I need from 50yds out to 300yds and from 50lb pigs to 1000lb buffalo, without buying anything.

But I still have an itch for the Ruger 350 rem mag for some strange reason.

Any other 35 guys will need no further explanation anyone else will not understand any more than I do.

I'll probably get the 350... unless I go back over to Academy and and ask the counter guy to let me handle the Vanguard Sporter again in which case I may weaken. That is just one sweeet rifle.

This just isn't getting any easier.

DrMike, its good to meet another long married guy that loves his wife as well as he knows her. I think there is a vacation in my near future. Don't ask I wont know where till she tells me. If she asks if we have any Dramamine in the house, I'm in trouble. lol

"...as people age they begin to steer away from recoil..."

REALLY!!

I guess I'm not as old as the calendar says...

Somehow I find myself shooting 223's more than my 500 Jeffrey, and I sold both of my 458 lotts.

They used to but not anymore. Rem, Win, Ruger, Wby, etc don't chamber for it. But you can always find an old 25-06, 270, 280, 30-06 and send it off to some gunsmith for a replacement .338 barrel. That's what I did with my old .30-06 110 Savage. Sent it off to ER Shaw for a new SS 2.5 contour .338 barrel.

In 1971, upon my return from RVN, I bought myself a Ruger Flatbolt M77RS in .350RemMag.

I have never......ever....regretted that purchase.

Long live the 350 rem.mag. The original short mag.

Notwithstanding the "rouhness" issue(which will go away with use)I would take the 30/06 Hawkeye in a heartbeat.You already pointed out the rugged,simple design, which to me is far more important than most other considerations. I'd be happy to hunt about anything, anywhere with a Ruger Hawkeye.

I am not a fan of either rifle, but my vote goes to the Ruger in 350 Rem mag. I feel the Ruger has better resale value and even better if chambered for the 350 RM. Moreover, the 350 RM is different and has that cool factor. The Howa in 06 is too mundane for my tastes. Lou

Hawk

Yes, get the short action Whelen a/k/a 350RM. You will like it, for sure. Good addition to your 35cal collection.

WN

i only gave 685 tax and all for my mod 7 350 mag. i love it!!!! i also really like my 673 guide gun in 350. theres def. a differance in pick em up and set em down between the 06 and the 350 thats for sure

Well fellows, you've worked a bad influence on me and I've tracked down a very nice looking lightly used Ruger MarkII 350 Rem Mag which I hope I can work a deal on. I'm getting kind of excited, if all goes well I may have it in a week or so.

I've never seen a Mark II model like this one. It has open sights and is stainless in the walnut stock. Very purty shooter. I hope it shoots purty too. This is a change for me and my first stainless. I thought it would be useful in poor weather.

I'll get a picture to show off with as soon as I can.

Thanks again for all your helpful advice.

Enjoy your guns now, tomorrow is promised to no one.

The Ruger is too much rifle for the 350 Remington Mag. I'd try to find a Remington 700 in .30-06.

I have both calibers and actually the '06 is going down the road soon. Nothing against the caliber, no doubt that very soon I will buy another, but I do love those 35s.

The cartridge is fantastic in the rifles it was developed for (the Model 600 & Model 673 Remington.) It just doesn't make sense in a full size rifle.

I like both calibers, but the 350 Remington Mag is a great caliber, to work with. I have owned a Remington 700 Classic for several years. I have always handloaded for it. I think it makes a fine rifle in the Classic model with the 22 inch barrel. And IMHO, is the full equal to the 35 Whelan in a shorter action, and I personally consider it eaiser to handload for. I like it better because it's more positive to headspace for, and even if it was short, I have that belt to headspace on, although I always headspace on the shoulder.

You can load everthing from 357 pistol bullets for it, up 250gr stompers. I like the economical Speer 180gr psp. and I like the 200gr sierra roundnose. Both bullets hit deer hard, I have always loved the way it smacks game when it hits.

Why not? Seriously, not trying to start any wars here but I would like to here why it doesn't? If a 35 Whelen does or a 30-06 does then why doesn't a 350 Rem Mag?

The .350 Rem Mag was designed to give .35 Whelen performance in a light weight compact carbine. If you're going to carry the weight of a full sized rifle (Model 700 or M77)there are many better cartridges to choose from. Just my 2 cents.

Even the .30-06 (with heavy bullets) is just as good if not better.

So the 06 is better in a full size rifle than the 350? Ok? So if you take that '06 case and neck it up to 35 caliber you have a Whelen which has about the same case capacity as a 350. So the '06 with heavy bullets is better out of rifle than a 35 Whelen is?

For all most all hunting situations, yes the .30-06 is a better cartridge than the .35 Whelen.

In the field (and on paper)there is little if any detectable difference. Both will harvest anything in North America.

The point being is that if you are going to carry the extra weight of a full size rifle, buy a long action rifle. Then you're not so limited in the real big game cartridges you can choose from. The .350 Rem Mag. is a great niche cartridge for short, light weight, compact carbines that ride in float planes in places like Alaska.

Swampman:

I don't understand your position relitive to the potential of the two cartriges. The 350rm will load the 180grn to +/- 3000fps; the 200grn +/- 3000fps; the 225grn to +/- 2700fps. This isn't to say that the 06 is in any way an inferior cartrige. Far from it. But to say the 06 with heavier bullets is its equal,is IMHO, not correct.

The .30-06 can push a 220 grain bullet 2700 fps. That's close enough that no animal will know the difference.

The .30-06 can get 2938 fps from a 24-inch barrel rifle with the 180.

According to my Hornady reloading manual your .350 Rem. Mag. numbers are very optimistic.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/350_Rem_Mag.htm

Those loads sound too hot to me. But OK. We don't agree and that is a good thing. Life would be boring if we all did.

Sorry boys, your right I should have given attribution with my comment. All the MAX loads listed in my prior comments are listed in either Lee Reloading, 2nd Edition, Speer Reloading #13 or in the One Caliber One book for 35 Remington and 350 Remington Magnum. I'm certain only because that is my reloading library and I have been looking up possible loads for my 350 when it arrives.

Also plese understand that I used the word "potential" I did not nor do I now recommend that anyone use the maximum load for any caliber for any rifle, but the loads exist and the loads available for the 06 do not cover bullets of this weight at the velocities listed. I didn't make this up.

If you want a real eye opener compare the 200grn and 250grn Max loads with the same weight bullets for the 300 win mag against the 350 rem mag. I was surprised.

I'm sure the guys that have been shooting the 350 are just smiiling because they know the potential of their guns and have seen the results.

Enjoy your guns today, tomorrow is promised to no one.

The main advantage of the 30-06 is that ammo can be found almost anywhere that ammo is sold, espacally that outback country store. They won't have 35 Whelen or 350 Rem. Mag, usually. But those big medium 35's have a big frontal area, and In my experience I believe that game (at least at medium and short ranges) gets hit harder, and goes down quicker. I will throw the .348 Winchester in there too.

At anyrate, this debate will never get settled, I own and hunt with .308wins, 30-06's, 350Rem mag, and the 348 win, as well as the 45/70 and even the 450 Alaskan in an original model 71.

Which gun gets used the Most by me? For me it's the little .308 Win, mostly because it's chambered in an older steel framed BLR. I like the rifle better for general use, so I accept the caliber it's chambered in. And In reality, I can't recall a single time that I though it handicapped me, as opposed to using one of the other rounds.

If you have the money and time to play with several guns, and you have opportunity to hunt some of the bigger game, then by all means, have at it. If you're just hunting deer, and you only what to buy one rifle or two, then get a .30-06, .308, .270, etc in a rifle you really like and you're good to go.

Lastmohecken,

I couldn't agree more if you include a 35 Cal in the mix. LOL.


Enjoy your guns today,Tomorrow is promised to no one.

All these 350 RM threads lately are making me want one...

Are there any others besides the M7 and Ruger Mark 2 being chambered in the 350?

Those short fat bastids loaded with a RN just look like they'd put a hurtin on something. At any rate, my next rifle is going to be something new to me... The other one I was considereing was a T3 Lite stainless in 25-06

This is the only one that makes sense.

http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/centerfire_rifles/model_673.asp

That 673 might, might have had a chance, were it not for the ribbed barrel. Even still, I wish I'd have bought the .243 model that I found, if only for collector purposes.

Hawkeye02,
I was referring to the 30-06 loads Swampman recited.

A great example that Remington pumps out some ugly models...

I shot the 350 Rem a little, but it didn't impress me much..The 30-06 is by far my favorite choice of the two...

If I wanted a 35 caliber, which I don't, I would opt for the 35/338 or the 350 Norma magnum. Now that is a hammer...

LoneEagle,

Not a problem. I was responding to Swampmans comment that the loads I mentioned were "Optomistic". He is a Rem/06 guy that likes to stir the pot just for entertainment but it's important for folks to know where stipulated performance comes from. Thats why I responded.
I didn't want to get into a P***ing match about which caliber can kill the most dead. It's all personal preference. 35 guys are odd ducks at best when viewed by 270 and 30 cal guys. I plead guilty.
Still it's interesting and fun to see the pot getting stirred.

Enjoy your guns now, tomorrow is promised to no one.

Remington 673 is a French word that translates to "Butt Ugly Brown Star Award"

I did some digging last night after I got off the 'Fire. Seems that the stainless All Weather Rugers have been discontinued. And I didn't see a stainless Mod 7 offered?

The M77 MK II's have been discontinued.... Thats why I made sure I got one in June:) Still unfired but I did pickup some brass and a 1x4x20 VX II for it. I just have not made up my mind if I will keep it or find a M77 in 35 whelen like I wanted to begin with.

Jake

I LOVE my Model 7 Rem KS Custom Shop rifle that Carl Feldcamp pimped for me. But then again, I am a short action slut. So far, I killed 2 bucks with mine this year. It has become my go to rifle. It wears a Leupold 2.5x8 The other rifles are getting lonely. I have not even shot my .358 this year, and I HAVE to hunt with my old Sako .308 mannlicher this weekend, because I hear it crying in the safe.




Good luck with the new Ruger. It sounds like a beauty.

These are my two favorite hunters....



Top gun is a Ruger All-Weather MKII in .350 RM. The barrel was shortened to 18.25" and a Williams ramp front with NECG open rear sight added. Since I have a bunch of 250 grain .35 bullets that I have collected over the years that is what this one shoots. The scope has since been switched to a 1.5-6 Tasco Titan. Looks better on the gun and gathers more light at dusk.

Bottom gun is a 60s vintage Remington M600 with 1.5-5 Leupold. It mainly uses 225 grain Nosler Petition or 220 grain Speer HotCore.

If you have never loaded for the .350 before you can forget about the longer Swift, Nosler BallisticTip and Banes-X. Many of spitzer designs are just too long for the even longer than Remington Ruger magazine.

You may alo want to invest in one of the Lee Factory Crimp dies. Some of the 225+ bullets have to be seated fairly deep and the FCD works great at keeping them from telescoping into the case...

The only .350 left on the market is the M7 CDL. The gun has wonderful balance...only wish they would bring the exact same gun out in stainless...

Bob

It's true that the All Weather Mark II 350 RM, stainless/Syn. was discontinued when the Hawkeye was released, but if you are looking for one there are still a few available on Gunbroker. They are are fairly inexpensive being under 500., with some around 450.. Quite a buy if you want one. I suspect that when they're gone, They're Gone!

"Personally, I see no need to upgrade the power of the 30-06 by increasing its speed. I have long held that if you want more power than is available in the 30-06, you do not want more velocity, you want more bullet. Three cartridges that might really use additional velocity are the 308, the 350 RM, and the 458, since each of these is hampered by a case capacity too small for optimum ballistics. (John Gannaway can indeed achieve full velocity in the 350 RM, but only by loading up to the point where the cases are not re-usable.)"

Jeff Cooper

....You guys got me thinking of re-barreling my Remington 660 to 350. It's in 6mmRem now, so it'd require some bolt work though.Any ideas on gunsmith costs for such bolt work?