Came across a Savage 10 FM "SIERRA" in 300 WSM, it only has a 20 inch barrel. Anyone ever try a WSM with a barrel that short? How do they shoot?

I am looking to replace my gun I leave with family back east for a week of PA whitetail / Bear season it sure beats taking a additional bag on the airline. The price is right�

For me it would be too short, possibly action heavy, some velocity loss, and muzzle blast most likely. You will get a lot of opinions, but it would be a 24" tube for me.

http://www.savagearms.com/10fm.htm

What are you going to hunt at what ranges? For a rifle with a 20" barrel the 308 seems to be a fit!

Full length action? A full length actioned, 20" barreled 30 cal short magnum?

Idiots...

Agreed.

+2

I chrono'd a 300 WSM at 24", then had the barrel cut to 22" and chrono'd it again... lost right at 75 fps with the same 180 gr. load.

From a muzzle-blast, performance perspective, there's nothing in the world that would induce me to own a 300 WSM with a barrel less than 23".

Brad: 20" barrels sound like 308-ville to me

Ive got a 300 wsm with a 22 and I can say from the perspective of Blast and velocity its fine. I don't doubt that it would be 80FPS faster with two more inches or barrel but if I was chasing every last drop of 30cal speed I wouldn't be shooting a 22" barrel wizum.

As for accuracy I am not sure that barrel length has much to do with accuracy, if the rifles balance is off then it might be more challenging to shoot well from field positions.

At the range I wear eye and ear protection so most anything without a brake is no big deal. hunting I may shoot a handful of times a year, also no big deal. For me it would be more a question of balance and feel.

Ruger makes the RCM in a 20" and the 300 RCM and 300WSM are close enough that maybe a 300RCM shooter could chime in on noise and blast.

All my hunting there is under 200 yards, tree stand hunting or ground. I was hoping to find a Savage 10 fcm scout rifle in .308, but they are priced around $575..this one has been passed by for so long the dealer has it down to under $350.00 for a new savage with the accutrigger it seems like a great price for a gun that will be get used 3 or 4 days a year. plus I am not out much if it comes up missing

+3!! That seems weird that Savage even did that. However, I wonder what it would cost to rebarrel? Probably have as much more wrapped up in it as if you were to just go and buy one with a 24" barrel......worth checking into.

It would actually be a 30-06+P-ville and LOUD!

Would likely shove a 180 at 2,800 or more...

You just described the reason for the existence of the 308 Win. It's model-perfect in a 20" barrel.

Do yourself a favor and don't screw up your hearing with a short barreled 300 WSM with power totally unnecessary for hunting as you describe.

every time barrel length related to cartridges is discussed, the same truisms get tossed out.

can someone explain how a 20" 300 mag, which would push a 180 at ~2800 fps with factory ammo, is somehow inferior to a 20" 308 that would shoot the same bullet to ~2500 fps?

Shouldn;t terminal ballistics and preference to carry-ability be the goal, rather than this intangible 'efficiency'?

As far as muzzle blast, maybe I spent way too may hours in a drill shack or in a helicopter, but can you guys seriuosly differentiate the noise/blast level between 20 to 24 inch barrels to the point of finding a short barreled rifle actually unbearable to shoot?

Happy New Year!!

Well, they're call "truisms" for a reason! Yes, all that noise and blast is real to those of us that have protected our hearing and, if you think the "terminal ballistics" difference is meaningful on WT deer and black bear at woods ranges, then I have a bridge in NY for your consideration.

Best Wishes and Happy New Year!

Its a short action, not "full length." Two digit model numbers denote short action. Three digits = long action.

This year I built two Savage 110's in 458 win mag, one 24", one 20". The only time I noticed one being louder was shooting off of a back deck. The noise reflecting from the house and deck was extreme! The 24" rifle was not nearly as loud. My cousin stood next to me as I shot two does in the woods. Neither one of us thought it was any louder than normal, no ear ringing. I think that short, light 458 with sane loads is now my favorite hunting rifle.

I think a $350 WSM would be a fine rifle for what you want. Leaving a rifle in PA is a great idea. I should leave one in Missouri in case I fly next year.

If that rifle is the new center feed action, pounce! They are much smoother, and feed as well as anything. Better than any crf I can afford, and miles better than the old Savage staggered feed.

Plus, you can always load it like a 308 if its too loud.

620mm has been proven to be the ideal length.

24.40944881 inches? Yup. Sounds about right!

laughin'!


I'm telling you, the Finns have it figured out!

I may be wrong, I think that action looks long enough to house a H&H. Blocking a long action doesn't make it a short action. Again, I may be wrong on that.

But if it is a long action, doesn't that kinda defeat the whole purpose of a shortie cartridge? You know, the shorter, lighter, faster to cycle BS that manufacturers spoon-feed us?

As for the 20" tube, it was definitely muzzle blast I was thinking of.


As for loading it down "like a 308" if it's too loud, I hope you're kidding about that.

"Yup, bought a new rifle! It's a magnum length action but I feed it little shortie cartridges. Makes total sense! The barrel is so short I can't shoot it without hearing protection so I really can't hunt with it! I can load it down to 308 levels so I can shoot it, it only takes 60 grains of powder. But here's the best part...I still get to impress all the Range-Rambos by telling them that I'm shooting the 300WSM they read about in Guns & Ammo!"


Happy New Year!

.................Yes I have! And if you want that 20" Savage, you get it!! I will gladly take a very small velocity loss and in return gain an easier carrying, better handling, quicker to the target compact rifle.

I have a compact 16.5" barreled Ruger Frontier chambered in the 300 WSM. It is deadly accurate and will handle anything at any range a 24" er will do!

In fact, the chrony result differences in velocities between 2 24" 300 WSMs and my Frontier, using the same identical reloads, averaged between a 3.8% to a 4.5% in overall velocity loss.

With my Frontier, I have propelled a 150 grainer in excess of 3100 fps, a 180 in excess of 2900 fps and a 200 grainer @ 2800 fps. And I haven`t even tried Rel 17 yet! 3000 fps with a 180 grainer and from 16.5" tube using Rel 17?... Don`t bet against it!

All this hype and biz about muzzle blast and noise,,,is just that! Hype!

Anyone who thinks that a 24" or greater barrel length is the only suitable way to make good use of a 300 WSM, is sadly mistaken! It`s not the barrel length that matters as much as the performance that comes out from one!

Good grief.

Those speeds are more than a bit hinky sounding to me. A 16.5" tube should run a 180 in and around 2725 fps, not 2900....

Your 7.5" shorter than what is normally used in a 300 WSM, you will lose somewhere between 25-33 fps per inch. At that much of a shorter barrel you should be running a 180 right along @ 30/06 speeds.

Something in the hen house at quite right.

I'd be for thinking that you've either the fastest 30 cal tube in the world, and or your clock in giving you hinking readings. Or you're on the all time all star red line team and should really be thinking about pushing back from the scale a bit.

But, from reading your post I think you'll just take offense to this (when you should be taking note) so never mind. Powder River let er buck and don't forget to wear your safety glasses and helmet (just like when I lost my virginity...grins).

And if you care to clue us in what is your load that will allow you to run a 180 @ 2900 in a 16.5" tube?

Many thx and best of luck to ya!

Dober

[/quote].................Yes I have! And if you want that 20" Savage, you get it!! I will gladly take a very small velocity loss and in return gain an easier carrying, better handling, quicker to the target compact rifle. [/quote]


Now this part of your post I do concur with. I feel basically the same way, albeit I do know that it'll be a bit noisy and I know that from personal experience as I owned one a few years back.

It shoot great, handled great, but was more than a bit rough on the ears.

Dober

I run up just such a deal on very slightly used (10 shots) 16L Savage in .300 WSM. I got it and have had a blast with it ever since. Buy it and enjoy it!
Good shooting!
Marcus.

...............Dober!....A little skeptical are we now??...Ready for some fun?

Do you currently own a Ruger Frontier chambered in a 300 WSM?
If so, any chrony experience with one? Is the answer no to both by chance? Possibly?

If you feel that the hens in my hen house are a little out of order, or that my chrony is in the twilight zone or whacked out, I`ll do my best to line the hens up for you and have a word with my chrony to make sure its not sick! Kinda like getting all the ducks lined up in a row too?

Who says I should be only running at 30-06 speeds? How do you determine that? A loss of 25 to 33 fps per inch? With some rifles maybe!

First, I will refer you to please see "shootingtimes.com" then click on "long guns." Then scroll down to page 6 at the bottom and click. Then find the article entitled "Short Answer About Scout Style Rifles" by Dick Metcalf. Then go to the page 3 sub-heading within that article entitled "Short Barrel, Long Reach."

His Frontier, a 16.5" tubed test rifle in 7mm/08, propelled a 140 gr. factory bullet @ 2647 fps. That same identical 140 gr factory ammo from a 24" 7mm/08 rifle, chrony`d at 2770 fps. Well! Well! Lets do some math here! 2770-2647= a 123 fps difference, divide by the 7.5" for the barrel length difference and look what we have. 123 fps divided by 7.5" = a loss of 16.4 fps PER INCH, or an overall loss of 4.5%!...UH OH!.. Whooops! That`s from Dick Metcalf! He also says that ALL calibers chambered in the Frontier, will or should have similiar results!

Let`s go further shall we. Please go to "reloadersnest.com," then hit "rifles" then scroll down and find 300 WSM. There you`ll see a bunch of reloads, which can be duplicated..... And with some,,,I did exactly that!!

First, please find 150 gr. and click. Find load # 7544. From a 24" barreled 300 WSM, using 65.5 gr. W/760, what`s his velocity? I read 3255 fps. That exact same load in my Frontier chrony`d at 3118 fps on average. 3255-3118= 137 fps difference divided by the 7.5" of shorter barrel length = 18.26 fps per inch! Or an overall velocity loss of 4.21% when you do the math....How about another?.....This is fun!

Second! Please find 180 gr. and click. Find load # 10475. From that 24" barreled 300 WSM, using 69 gr. Rel 19, what velocity do you read? I read 3050 fps. That exact same load chrony`d 2917 fps on average from my Frontier. Let`s do the math again; 3050-2917=133 fps divide by 7.5" which = 17.73 fps per inch, or an overall velocity loss of 4.37%......Getting interesting for ya now? How about one more time shall we!

Third! Please find 200 gr, then find load # 10476. From this 24" barrel, I read 2930 fps using 68 gr of Rel 19. I chrony`d that exact load at 2811 fps on average. 2930-2811= 119 fps divide by 7.5" = 15.86 fps per inch or an overall loss of 4.07%.....

How are the hens in my hen house doing now?? Still a bit hinky??

BTW! We had a second back up chrony to verify the first!!....UH OH!.....Whooops again!

When you take all three loads and their percentages of loss and average them out, you come up with an overall loss in velocity of 4.216% from the loads that I duplicated. Metcalf`s percentage loss was what in that article?......4.5%!!!!!!!

Hey! Maybe those other 24" 300 WSMs were fast barrels too?? Right?

25 to 33 fps per inch? Well! Not in my case sir! In the examples above, if you calculate what,, as you say,, should be the loss from 25 to 33 fps per inch from their velocities given, you`d come up with an overall velocity loss of between 187.5 fps to 247.5 fps. That calculates to 5.75% to a possible 7.59% of overall loss for the 150 gr. A 6.14% to a possible 8.10% of overall loss for the 180 gr and 6.39% to a possible 8.44% of overall loss for the 200 grainer......Those percentages are TOTALLY IN-CONSISTENT with Metcalf`s chrony findings and mine as well. In fact, my findings are far more consistent and extremely closer with his vs your estimations.

Many have a tendancy to under-estimate the performance from the shorter barrels. I cannot speak for other cartridges, (except my 375 Ruger Alaskan`s ballistics from its 20" tube), but when it comes to the 300 WSM, its performance from the shorter tube, is outstanding! A great shorter barreled round in a handy 35.5" compact rifle, which BTW has some reeeeel good long range capability,,,wouldn`t you say?

BTW! They all grouped,,,,quite well!

Don`t worry. I didn`t take any offense. However! It`s just alot of fun presenting the facts!........Any questions?

And! Good luck to you too!

What are your handload details for the above load?

What chronograph are you using?

Thanks.

Thx 4 the morning chuckle.......

Now tell us what loads you're running.

Dober

..........There were two chronographs used; Competetion Electronics Pro Chrono Digital and a Shooting Chrony Beta Master.......The details to my above three loadings as I have stated and referenced, are there for all to see on "reloadersnest." under the "rifle" section and under "300 WSM."

Load # 7544 for the 150 grain
Load # 10475 for the 180 "
Load # 10476 for the 200 "

All details and the components listed there, were duplicated by me.

............Glad to have made your day with a little morning chuckle!..See my above post!.. It`s all there for ya! The load details which I duplicated, where to go to reference them and the Metcalf article which supports my results.

I guess you have a real difficult time in believing that 24" barreled 300 WSMs can really produce, in some rifles, about 3050 fps with a 180 gr bullet.

In turn, it seems you also have even more difficulty in fathoming that a 16.5" tubed 300 WSM, can produce, in some rifles, 95.5% of the total velocity of what the 24" ers can produce? Believe it or not, it is what it is!

Maybe too, you had a difficult time in believing that one of your other members here, recently posted on another thread his chrony results with a 24" 300 RSAUM, using 62 gr of Rel 17, behind a 180 grainer and getting 3150 fps?

The 300 WSM, as listed by Alliant`s loading data shows a max of 66 gr using the Rel 17. But then again, each individual rifle has its own tolerance for a max load, as well as its own velocity characteristics.

I`m sure that your chuckles will really increase, after I`m done playing around with some Rel 17?

I enjoy making people laugh!!.....Looking forward to it!

Me too....don't 4-get your glasses and helmet...

So how many grains of what do you run behind your 300 shorty?

Thx

Dober

Maybe too, you had a difficult time in believing that one of your other members here, recently posted on another thread his chrony results with a 24" 300 RSAUM, using 62 gr of Rel 17, behind a 180 grainer and getting 3150 fps?

[/quote]


This is just me but IMO the person running the above load shouldn't forget his glasses and or helmet either...but then again maybe R17 is a magical powder and it really can jump sane speeds by 250 fps...

Time will tell, but I for one feel that R17 will be good but after it's initial honey moon period that soome people will come back down to their senses...

Side note and this is just out of curiousity but you wouldn't happen to be in your late 20's-40 and under 5' 10" would you?

Thx

Dober

This is just me but IMO the person running the above load shouldn't forget his glasses and or helmet either...but then again maybe R17 is a magical powder and it really can jump sane speeds by 250 fps...

Time will tell, but I for one feel that R17 will be good but after it's initial honey moon period that soome people will come back down to their senses...

Side note and this is just out of curiousity but you wouldn't happen to be in your late 20's-40 and under 5' 10" would you?

Thx

Dober [/quote].............Who said anything about a person running "above load."...I`ve read about the new technology regarding the properties of RL 17.... It`s called "welcome to the 21st century" as new and better things come to be after research and development, which are then brought to the marketplace.....Sometimes, new things take some time to get use to, which as we all know, can disrupt some older school 20th century thinking!

As far as coming to their senses? You just want to try some RL 17 yourself and maybe a few other things before you assume things, criticize it, or slam it down ahead of time or even assume it can`t be done!

Although I wear glasses when shooting, I won`t be needing a helmet as you advise, to protect me from any recoil!!

As to your side note?... I happen to be 57 years old, w/35+ years of hunting and reloading experience and stand 6'3" tall and weigh 240 lbs., with 7% body fat!

"Big Squeeze" is my user name for a reason!

Too bad you live out of So. Calif. I`d be happy to invite you to the range. I`ll even cook up some of my .375 Ruger 300 gr. reloads for ya. Down here when the weather gets moderately warm and warmer, I shoot with a tank top on or just have one of my Hawaiian shirts on! With that criteria, would you prefer 40 rounds or 60 rounds for a one day session on the bench? Sorry, no lead sleddin or helmets allowed!

Why don't you just list the details here?

Why don't you just list the details here?

I'm sure we'd all like to learn what it is you're doing so we can avoid it...

Why don't you just list the details here?

I'm sure we'd all like to learn what it is you're doing so we can avoid it... [/quote]............For you? Why should I offer anything more other than what I`ve already given. I have already proven that what I have stated can be done, how it can be done, why and given references.

You on the other hand, as well as Doby or whoever, offer nothing more than opinions. You have offered absolutely nothing that can effectively dis-prove my shorter barreled chrony findings!

As you so eloquently add to your above post,,,"so we can avoid it",,,doesn`t appear to me, that if I offered anything more, that it would be appreciated. It would instead be mocked, be disputed and spun as garbage. So why should I offer you anything further, especially when you would wish to avoid it anyway!

So if you don`t mind, I choose not offer anything more.

I've loaded for FIVE 300 WSM's... 2,900 with a 180 (and your other loads) from a 16.5" barrel is absolutely the stupidest thing I've read on the dis-information net in years... the laws governing physics weren't suspended for your appearance on planet earth... if in fact that's where you're from.

...............You wouldn`t have the guts to call me liar to my face now would you? I`ll buy you the plane ticket for you to come down here and try. You wouldn`t finsh the sentence pal.

I don`t give a rip how many 300 WSM`s you have loaded for, fondled with or slept with.

Why don`t you go find a 300 WSM Ruger Frontier if you can, which were discontinued by Ruger for patent reasons, reload for it and chrony it.

Here`s another little tid bit for ya! When the site gets back up, go to "gunblast.com and find the 2/05 article when Jeff Quinn did a review of my same rifle. His best factory 180 grainer did 2796 fps. Who`s to say that in another Frontier, that same load couldn`t do 2850 or 2900.

Did it ever occur to you that some barrels are just faster than others by maybe an aditional 50-100 fps when firing the same identical loads. Maybe my "smith" who told me that, is lying too?

Were those who submitted loads on "reloaders nest" who got 3050 fps and more with a 180 grainer lying too!

Was Dick Metcalf lying when he reported a 4.5% reduction
in velocity from a barrel 7.5" shorter when compared to a 24" er?

You can call it stupid, dis-information, lying or anything you damn well please and rant and rave all you want to.

But one thing is for sure! You can`t come up with anything to counter me or dis-prove me.

Until you go and get a 300 WSM Frontier for yourself, experiment with reloads and chrony it, you`re nothing more than an idiot trying to make a case based on an opinion of dis-belief rather than offer anything else or do your damn reading and research!

Seriously Squeeze, if you're 6'3" and 240 doesn't that lil gun seem sort of like it's from a boxc of cracker jacks?

I mean really I am 6'1" and 210 and I couldn't fathom working with such a lil rifle. Now my 9 year old Grandson sure, but guys our size...? Like I said somethings wrong in the hen house.

And what's your 180 grain load? Go ahead just stick it up here it no big deal to do so.

As for shooting your 375 Ruger with the 300's not me man! I hate and can't handle recoil much over a 270 so no way would you get me shooting that rig...

Doby

Perhaps it's a typo but those loads are all from a 24" barreled M70?


Added:
Nevermind, figured it out(I think).
Those are the loads you are shooting out of your 16.5" barrel.

Any 300 I own with have the classic 26 inch tube..My 300 Win. now belonging to my son and my old 300 H&H all have 26 inch tubes..if I want a short tube then I will opt for a different caliber like a .308, 270 or 06..The 270 btw handles short barrels surprisingly well, better than most calibers I have tried.

The .270 really shines with bbl's longer than 22" as JB found out.

I had two 270's built with longer barrels after reading the acticle JB wrote in which he mentioned the 26" Shaw. The first was a Lilja at 25" and the second was a Kreiger at 26". I ended up cutting each to 23". The average loss was 24 fps per inch. The load was 61 grains of H4831sc and 130 grain TSX. The throat was cut a little long to accomodate an oal of 3.49" and this allowed the hotter load. Both were much more pleasant to pack after being shortened.

Rin-I too had a 25" tube on a .270 (just 4 giggles I'd love to do it on an 06 some day as well).

I also cut it to 23" so it would fit the scabbard. Either way it worked very well on game when the shot was directed properly.

Dober

............That little rifle that you think belongs in a cracker jack box, shoulders very fast, is a fast pointer, carrys extremely well in any terrain, is a delight in the field, and will do anything that anyone could do, using any 300 WSM with a longer barrel. Timber gun, bush gun, open plains gun, mountain gun, fast for any surprises, you name it! You can name the game too; elk, moose, bear, anything on the N/A continent and throw in all plains game too! That rifle you call a "cracker jack box" rifle would run circles around you; in shouldering, pointing, aiming and firing!

Something is wrong in my hen house? I`m the fox in yours pal.

Can`t handle 40-60 rounds of .375 Ruger?? Well, you should not have mentioned that I would need glasses and a helmet then!

As I said, go to "reloadersnest" and find that 180 gr load for yourself. I gave it to ya in one of my posts; the load #, the charge and even the powder. Why should I give you anything more?

Everybody`s a liar and my rifle belongs in a cracker jack box? Well! Go blank yourself pal!

Good to see you're maturing so well at 57 years...grin

Dober

..........You certainly were and are no better yourself, in fact much worse!

I smell an Indian Leg Wrestling match!

I tell you what why don't you go back to blow drying your chest hair ok...

And please don't have me shoot your 375 with 300's I don't think I could handle it....grin

On second thought, if you ever get up here bring it along and we can spend a day out shooting chucks and pds and rocks with it (and my 340's and 375 Wby's and) and see how it goes. But....for some reason I really aint all that worried about those kinds of recoil levels. I've worn out enough of those kinds of barrels to of lost any concern for them many moons ago.

Dober

..............What such intelligence! Duh!...Well take care Doby! The fun is over!

Dats for sure and thx for the morning and eve giggles.

And seriously, I really don't care what you shoot. And I know that you don't care what I shoot just as long as we're both out there getting after it for me is what it's really all about.

And if you ever come this way bring your fly rod and we'll beat up on some dry's one day and then next we'll hit the chuck and pd fields with our 375's. As long as we both keep our mouths shut I reckon we'll do just fine.

Ciao my friend

Doby