Okay, I need a lever rifle in my gun safe. I have been looking at some pre-64 M94 and the 336. Which would you guys recommend.

savage 99. winchester 88 you asked!

I'd have to agree that the Savage 99 is THE choice in a lever rifle.

However, if you ment a "traditional" style rifle, the 336 (or other Marlin rifles....1895, 1894) would be my easy choice over the Model 94 Winchester. As much as I like my 94's have too many inferior features to compete with the Marlin design.

Let's compare:

The 94's top ejection (and the Angle-Eject is just a top ejecter that can't shoot straight) makes scope mounting "challenging". The Marlin's flat top is "made" for scope mounting.

The open top design of the 94 is not nearly as good at keeping trash and dirt out of the action as is the Marlin's solid top.

The 94 action is strong enough for the cartridges it chambers (particularly the Big Bore version).....but falls far short of the stronger Marlin.

In general (there ARE exceptions) the Marlin is much more accurate that the typical 94.

And finally.....the Marlins are available in two of my favorite (and most useful) caliber that have nevr been seen in the 94, the .35 Remington (no rimless rounds in the 94's) and the .45-70 (too big for the 94, but works just fine in the Marlin 1895).

If you want to pretend to be John Wayne (although he actually carried a Model 92.....not a 94....in all those movies), then get the Winchester. If you want the "best" rifle in a traditional style lever gun.....it's the Marlin all the way!

I just cannot stand a scoped lever gun though......

You don't HAVE to scope a Marlin.....but the option is there if you ever want to. Most tend to think of the Winchester as the typical "cowboy" rifle carried in the old west.......but don't realize the basic Marlin design is older than the Model 92-94 designs.

99 or 336

Just too add a different perspective�.
First off, the strength issue. The Marlin 336 is not �stronger� than the Model 94 Winchester. I have shot both rifles chambered for the 30-30AI and in my experience the Model 94 Angle Eject rifle will accept heavier charges than the Model 336.
I have pictures of at least four Marlin 336 rifles which failed in the receiver barrel thread area. The only picture I have seen of a Model 94 Winchester which failed is the one in P.O. Ackley�s Handbook for Shooters and Reloaders � this due to a deliberate overload.
If anyone has a picture of a Winchester Model 94 � top eject, Angle Eject or Big Bore which has failed I would like to see it.

In my opinion the Model 99 Savage is generally built too light and with poor balance � The R Models accepted. I hunt with a late 358 Model 99 and the rifle is muzzle light which affects the way it comes to the shoulder and swings. This particular rifle has shot its forend off three times, the tenion in the pencil thin barrel tearing out of the dovetail.
The Model 99 is an odd rifle to make repeat shots with until you develop a feel for the rifle. The lever springs open at the shot but the cock on closing requires some getting used too. I prefer the pistol grip rifles to the straight stock for this reason.

As too the question of accuracy the Winchester Angle Eject rifles and the Big Bores will shoot with any Model 99 Savage or Model 336 Marlin I have seen � EXCEPT the new 308MX chambered for the 308 Marlin Express cartridge.

As to the matter of big cartridges, there are a few Big Bore Winchesters around in 450 Marlin and the Big Bores may be converted to the 458 � 2� wildcat cartridge. I have been shooting a Model 94 chambered for the 444 Marlin cartridge for quite awhile and have found it to be quite satisfactory.

I don�t know why there are comments about the Model 94 Angle Eject being difficult to mount a scope. Simply purchase one of several scope mounts and install it on the rifle. If you prefer a receiver sight Williams and XS have one available.

As to the top of the Winchester allowing trash into the action I can only comment the only three lever-action rifles which have jammed on me in the field have been 1 Savage Model 99 and 2 Marlins � a Model 1894 and a new Model 308MX.

When it comes to cosmetics the folks at USRA-Winchester definitelymade some serious mistakes. The crossbolt safety with the large divot in the right side of the receiver was a blunder. The rebounding hammer and the long take-up trigger was another. Quality control in the last few years of USRA�s tenure did quite a bit of damage to reputation of reliability to the Model 94.

If you wish to read about a history of unreliable lever-action rifles read the comments on Marlin reliability in Recreation Magazine (available on Google books) starting with 1902.

I enjoy shooting the Marlin and the Winchester lever-action rifles but I don�t believe one has any particular superiority over the other.

Lots of 99's ain't muzzle light, must certainly depends on version.

My 99F takedown is about as balanced a rifle as I have.

Couple days ago I got an issue from Rifle magazine called "The Legacy of Lever Guns", subscription. Should be on magazine racks. Good issue with historical articles on all the famous lever actions.

I'm partial to the Marlin 336, which I own in 30.30. I think it's just better made and more refined than the '94 Win. With Hornady's LeverEvolution ammo, it's become a serious 250 yd hunting rifle with very respectable accuracy. One of the biggest plus factors is scope mounting, very solid and tidy...particularly if you use a Leupold one piece base, and Burris Signatures.



The new Marlin 308 and 338 Express calibers definitely would be the way to go today.

One of my first hunting rifles was an old, very worn looking M64 Winchester in .30-30. Very slick action. Very nice, 3 lb. trigger. 2-2.5 ich groups w/ factory 150 gr. WW ammo.
My second buck was killed with a Marlin 336 in .35 Remington. Very accurate rifle for a lever gun. Try 1.5 inch groups @ 100 yds. Both rifles, BTW, wore peep sights.
I've got an 1894 CL Marlin that, with a 3X scope, has shot groups at 100 yds. at 3/4 of an inch. It's a .25-20.
I've owned a Savage 99F in .358. I still kick myself for selling it. Try an inch and a half or better with several loads. 3X scope.
Currently, I'm still drooling over a Winchester 94 made in 1947. Very good condition. Very slick action. Trigger too heavy, but I'll bet that can be fixed. It's a .25-35. The guy that's selling it wants $995 for it.
Buy what tickles your fancy. There all pretty good. E

And I think Savage is really missing the boat by not re-introducing the '99, considering new technology available in manufacturing that would both keep costs reasonable and and improve the rifle. Clip fed in 270, 300 and 325 WSMs, I'd bet they couldn't keep up with demand for years to come.

The thought of a clip feed 99 in 325 Wizzum just made me throw up a little.

TOO funny!

I am new to the levergun affliction. Have only shot one head of big gmae with a lever rifle, a feral piggie in Calif. with a MArlin 1895 in 45/70. In the last year I have aquired a model 71 in 348AI, and model 88 in 358, and a takedown deluxe model 99 in 250 Savage. Hoping to try them all out this year. They ALL look and feel great in the hands. Bought the red and black plaid wool stuff along with the LL Bean Maine hunting shoes to go all out with the retro theme, should be a fun year.

If you can get your hands on a model 71, this would be my first choice for you for a really cool and fun do it all levergun. 2nd choice would be one of the terrific model 99's in various guises. Fantastic guns in many ways.

I'm no officiando on the Savage, but I don't think a rotary mag in a '99 has room for those fat little WSMs, eh?

Reviving an ol' classic of tremendous popularity, and making it capable of taking on just about anything out there ain't such a bad idea, is it?

Winchester 1895 405 WCF
and a Stainless BLR 325 WSM
AMRA

Just cuzz you can put 40DD's on Audrey Hepburn don't mean you should.

Rotary magazine is one the nice things about it. Hell, might as well make a 50BMG.

LOL!

From a marketing point of view, bringing the rifle up to date to handle new and efficient calibers would be a must do consideration, when investing all the start up dough required.

I'm sure the folks at Marlin would attest to the new life brought to their production lines by the introduction of the new Hornady ammo. Apparently they can't even begin to keep up with orders for the lever guns in the Express calibers.

Thinking just some of the standard SA cartridges would sing just fine (708, 260, 243, 308, 358, 300 Savage, 250 Savage, 22/250 and gasp 338 Federal).

Course Savage could get real sneaky and come out with the 25/08 Savage chambered in the new/old rotary magazine 99.

That wold be cool, but no flies on the 358 Win which Savage has already done succesfully. Try to find a 99 in that caliber for less than the cost of the B.O. health plan!

Not much one could not do with one of these or, for that matter a pretty easy to find 308 version.

I still say one of these or a model 71 in .348 are pretty danged cool.

I SO should have bought a 71 before the price got out of control. Want a '92 in 38/40 also.

I still see '71's kicking around here in smaller stores for less than $1,000; but even then they aren't that much less than a grand.

Browning BLR, mine is a .308 Win:


.45/70 Marlin 1895:




Of course there's always the wonderful .22 Marlin 39A! Probably the most useful of all lever guns:


Agree with those pushing the Savage 99 too - one heck of a rifle!

I'd go (and have) 336 with peeps.

I would have to go with the Marlin 336 in 30-30 its a deer huters classic. Mine has accounted for more deer then any tother rifle I have. I will be upgrading the mounts on mine soon and hopeful the scope in the spring.

All these rifle loonies have given you good advice as to why the brand they prefer is the best. I would take all of their advice and build a battery of leverguns. Start with a 30/30 in a Model 94, add a 45/70 in a Marlin M1895 (those are the easy ones). Then start looking for a nice Savage 99 in 250 or 300 SAV, finally go get yourself a Model 88 in .243 or .308 WIN. After obtaining the basic examples above you could add a Marlin 39 or Winchester 9422 for the low side, then find a nice M71 in .348 WCF for the high side. Of course you need to save a spot for a .405 WCF in case you need some lion medicine, and them maybe a few more to fill in the holes. You don't have get all this done in a week, give yourself a year or two to get it all done.

Get the Marlin 336, easier to clean and do it from the proper end than a Win 94.

A 336 with loads that it likes can shoot way better than most people think.

I really enjoy lever actions, they work well for us lefties.
I have traditional hammer levers and a few hammerless. Out of all my levers my favorites are the 88 & 99 for scope mounted and the 64 for carry. I really can't find fault with any of them.
Model 64, 30-30
Model 94AE, 30-30
Model 39A, 22
Model 336, 35rem.
Model 88, 338-08 (338 Federal)
Model 99R, 358win.

What I have always wanted to see is a Marlin chambered 348 Win. I know that Model 71 purists will howl with rage but I think that would make a great woods rifle.

Landrum

IIRC--The 348 is too fat for the svelte Marlin frame.

My choices in no particular order:

Marlin 336 in 30-30, or 35 rem;

Marlin 1894 in 44 mag;

Savage 99 in 308, 243, or 358;

BLR in 308;

1894 in 30-30.

All are solid rifles.

I have a new '92 Trapper in .45 Colt that I have never pulled the trigger on. I bought it in 2002, new, out of a special run of 500 Winchester's (made by Miroku). Thought that I might do some CAS with it along with my .45 Colt Vaquero but never did. I cant' see the sights on it now and don't want to modify it in any way for a receiver sight while it is still ANIB. Maybe I should Benoit it and put a 50mm objective lens 6-18 scope on it?? Maybe I will sell it soon.

I also have a '94 (pre-64, 1947 vintage) .32 Win Spec. and a Marlin 1895, .45-70. I shoot both of these and have owned the Model 94 since 1974.

BTW, the Marlin Model 336 (36) action design has been around since WWII not the 1800's. Also, it is fair to say that the Model 94 has probably killed more deer than the Marlin 336, since it predates the Model 336 by 50 years.

The 50 Alaskan is based off of the 348 case I think so it should work fine in a Marlin.

Landrum

50 is shorter

I'm not a big lever action fan, but do like my Model 64 in 30/30. Redfield is a recent upgrade.

If I recall correctly, the original Marlin design dates to 1893, so it beats the Winchester '94 by a year.

I have had the privilege of shooting an original Marlin 1893 in .25-36 Marlin, and I would pick it over any 94 Winchester I have had.

I have generally found Marlins to be accurate than the Wins.


.

I have a M92 in 38-40 and like the hell out of it. 24" round barrel, very good condition, made in 1906. Likely carried more than it was fired, since there is virtually no wear on loading gate or cartridge elevator? I am the second owner, since the lady I bought it from never shot it and her uncle bought it new. ;O)

Got dies, haven't gotten around to whuppin'up a load for it yet. No real need, as it shoots WW 180gr soft points very well and I have several boxes of them.

Favor Winchester M94s for looks, Marlin 336s for function and accuracy. Have both. My favorite Marlin is a nifty little 336SC in 35 Rem. Don't load for that thing yet either, since it is so accurate with 200gr Core Lokts. It has a Williams receiver sight, suits me fine.

Scopes on lever guns are an abomination, as they are on hunting revolvers. Just my opinions and I'm more than old enough to have 'em.

336 Marlin with a Bushnell Banner 1.5-4.5X32.

I'm sorry, but putting a scope on a lever-banger is about the worst form of perversion going these days. It looks more wrong and out of place than a square boob... I've met a ballerina with tourettes syndrome that was more graceful... I would rather have a daughter that was a cheap slut than a son that would put a scope on a lever-banger...

I understand that Remington owns Marlin. Based on that, I'd say you'd need a Remington scope to go on that Marlin.



.

Marlin was the first to chamber a lever action in the powerful 45-70 caliber. This was the Marlin model 1881, which pre-dates the Winchester model 1886 by 5 years.

-

You just can�t go wrong with a Marlin with a peep sight. Pick your caliber from a classic to one of the new ones. Mine's a 450M

I'm rather fond of my 336's. With all the other rifles in the safe, they get some serious play every season. Easy in the hand when moving through brush and they're just plain cool. I've got two, 30-30AI, one with scope and one with peep. The terrain dictates which one I grab, but I admit to preferring the one w/o scope cause it's just "right."

Savage 99 is the one with class..

Win 94 vs Marlin 336. Apples and oranges.

Win 94 -- Excellent pointability. Made the 16" Wrangler in .30-30 and .32Win that are handy for 4-wheelers and pickup seats. Big Bores are still out there. Likely a good investment.

Marlin 336 -- Easy to scope. Stronger action than the standard 94. Probably equal to the Big Bore. Lots of them available in .35Rem and .45-70.

The Fords and Chevys of the lever world. Sav 99's are the Caddys.

Savage 99 is my favorite lever gun....especially the older ones.....favorite "fun gun" is my Marlin 1895G in 45-70, if yah handload its a blast.....can load it from 45 colt levels all the way up to punishing levels.....

I really like my Marlins. I thought that a Win 64 would be just perfect, since I loved my early 336A's in the same configuration. But, I never liked the action in comparison to the 336, so I sold it to a friend.

I currently have 5 Marlins. 3 in the 24" barrel, 2/3's magazine pistol grip model. Two in .35 Remington, a caliber I've really grown to appreciate, and one in .30-30. One Marlin is the standard carbine in .32 Special. One in .444.

I have a Browning 71, in .348 of course, that just keeps a constant smile on my face. And a Savage EG in .300.

My next lever purchase will be a 92 clone in .45 Colt. I'm not as emphatically against scopes on levers as one previous poster, but I sure like my peep sights.

I love levers, and would recommend older Marlin 336's. One in .30-30 and one in .35 Remington. But, I sure wouldn't argue against a pre-64 94.

Henry McCann-am a lover of lever and single-shots myself-have owned many short tube Winchesters-Model 71 in 348 I was told was a 3-inch rifle at 100 yds.- back in the late 60's I found a stash of 150gr. bullets stoked with 4831-with a sidemounted Redfield scope this rifle constantly grouped under 1 inch-what a deer killer-how does your Browning group the 200 and 250gr bullets?-am very interested

re:DanAdair-I love scopes on lever guns, although I have some without-I believe it's more humane if you are going to shoot at deer as far as 300 yds to have something you are sure will put the pill in the boiler room-my wife loves scopes so much, she wants to have me mount one on her old Marlin 410 lever action-just to see how it will shoot slugs-she does love to kill those gophers!

Want a '92 in 38/40 also.

Don't do that!

You will then get dies, a good mold and start shooting
one hole groups at 50 yards with plinking loads.

Then you will start looking through old loading books
to duplicate a few WHV loads for hunting.................

Your other rifles won't see the light of day.

Hard to really pick what is the best lever-action because so many aspects of the decision are subjective. I think all the actions are strong enough for the rounds they are chambered for, and wouldn't spend time obsessing over that.

One neat feature of the Marlin, if one appreciates it, is that it is a simple thing to unscrew and remove the lever and bolt for cleaning from the breech. And the Marlin is generally more affordable than the Winchesters, especially if talking about pre-64. And all model 71's are pricey be they Browning or Winchester. I have a Browning carbine and don't regret the price I paid for it, but I do dislike the price and availability of its brass.

I have a Savage 99C and Winchester 88. I prefer the Winchester over the Savage. Also have a BLR ... like it too . All three of these have a measurable difference in feel of how the lever works. Not surprising as they are quite different in their designs. The 88 needs to be worked fast ... has less leverage on extraction with it's scissor-jack like mechanism. The Savage takes considerably more force, and for more of the stroke, to lock it in closing ... as william iorg mentioned, it takes some getting used to with these levers. The BLR lever is very smooth with its gear, and like the 88, requires just a little more effort at the start of extraction. The 88 has the best carry balance of this group with the BLR just behind it (to me). Both the BLR and Savage are very light, but my 99C seems a little too light at the barrel and it kicks me the sharpest. I attribute it to stock fit and forward light barrel. The 99 and 88 are both .308 and the BLR is .358 Win.

On the tube fed levers, I lean towards the Marlin ... For flat-out coolness and elegance, the 71 rules. It is a little heavier than the Marlin.

On the spitzer firing levers ... I'm on the fence between my 88 and BLR as the best. I really like them both. Never handled a Finnwolf. For me, the 99 is at the rear of the pack, but I like it.

I think the fastest handling lever (quickness to the shoulder) is the Winchester 92 carbine ... although I don't own one, I have handled them. I do have a cowboy Marlin 1894 carbine in .45 Colt and it is also quite quick to shoulder ... not a huge difference between it and the Winny 92 in that respect.

My Marlin in .35 Rem just feels right in the woods and it's action is butter smooth. It was built in 1950 and has a 20" barrel. My newer Marlin 444 is not as friendly to carry at 22" ... not quite as well balanced and light, but still very good.

Well, I rambled enough but that's some of my perspective on it. I hocked a pre-64 Winchester 30-30 in mint condition so I could make rent that month while in college. I really wish I had it back.

Just one comment.. don't judge the Savage 99's by the clip models. They can be good hunting guns, but they resemble the pre-1960 rotary models about as much as a Winchester 88 does.

Rotary magazine with lever safety and a serial number less than 1 million. That's the keys to a great Savage 99..

re:GUYM-I have seen alot of s--t in my 60 odd years of hunting, but that's the first damn squirrel I've seen shooting a Marlin 39A from the prone position!! Well, maybe not, I have seen a few squirels at the shootin' range! This is my first day on the job here, and this is FUN!!! I like it better than talking about politics!! You can tell we live out in the country. I bought plenty of 22's when O got in I ought to be able to keep a 39A going for another 50-100 years. My great-great grandchildren will be using them!!

Never got into lever guns that much but if they made one chambered for 500 S&W, I'd be all over it.

Agree ... I wouldn't judge all Savage 99's off the 99C with clip ... which is why I made sure to specify it. Prices on the older rotary models have gone high enough I doubt I'll ever get one unless I stumble over a good deal.

As for the Model 88, the post-64 Winchester 88's have functional improvements over the pre-64's ... the press checkered stock is purely an aesthetic consideration. I think the post 64 88 is a better 88 -- an exception to the rule for Winchesters for pre- vs. post-64. I also happen to like the press checkering on that rifle, but that is subjective.

My first rifle was a Marlin 336 in 44mg. It is a slick, accurate rifle and death to a deer. Over the years I have developed a real weakness for a lever action rifle and have tried them all. Winchesters, Marlins, Brownings, Savages, I haven't found one yet I didn't like. My post 64 Winchester 88 is much smoother than a pre 64 I owned and shot better too. Trigger was pretty bad on both. I didn't care much for the Sako even though it looked a lot like the Winchester 88 it just didn't feel right and I passed on that one. If it came down to keeping one it would be the Marlin 336 in 44mg.

You should get one of the custom lever rifle builders to build you a custom model 71 in 50 Alaskan. THAT is real levergun power!

the .348 was just a necked down 45-70 wasn't it. it has the same base diameter.
i have had marlins and winchesters and use a 94 when it rains.
the 336 lever pivot is right where the balance point is...makes it a little hard to carry. in a longer bbl, this isn't a problem.
the 94 is also lighter, the main reason (ithink) it remained popular.
an uncle let me use an old '86 in 33 win when i was a kid...that thing weighed a ton!

re:wahoo
the 348 WIN was not a necked down 45-70, it was a necked down 50cal-probably the best lever rifle you've ever had in your hands was your uncle's '86 Model 33 WIN-as for Marlin, I never buy a rifle that I know isn't accurate BEFORE I buy it!-rifling twist means everything-I don't know why Marlin chose the 1-in-36 twist for the .44 and .444 when the right twist is 1 turn in 20 to 22 inches-I have rebarreled many lever guns in .44, and with a 22 inch twist, they will cut clover leafs at 100 yds.-I know from experience that the older 336 in .35 REM is the right twist and is a very accurate rifle-do a study of rifling twists and you will find that the twist in the Marlin lever action, almost makes it a roundball rifle-lots of luck

No, the 348 was based loosely on the 50/70. Base diameter is a little larger at .610 vs .608. Actually, it is a lot closer to some other now obsolete Winchester offerings. Considered a bit too large in several respects to ever work through a model 94 type of action. Might could be shoehorned into a Marlin but the overall length is 2.795 and Marlins OAL needs to be kept at 2.550 or less.

Oldgunsmith.... looks like you and I were typing at th same time! I believe that Marlins thinking was to use the same twist rate as is found in revolvers since thier new cartridge was merely a long 44 Magnum. Probably stabilizes the original 240gr loads OK but with that big case and a rifle 265 - 300 gr bullets are a real upgrade. Original designers likely did not see that coming. Or did not care about what rifle looney handloaders might want to try to do.

Just to add a little information about the 1:38 twist ... as it regards Marlins, only older 444's have that twist rate. Newer and current production 444 Marlins have 1:20 twist. I don't recall the year Marlin switched from 1:38 microgroove rifling to 1:20 ballard rifling though ... also, since the 444 drives bullets faster, it stabilizes them better than the 44 mag at the 1:38 twist rate.

I have owned a shot just about all of the leverguns mentioned here as well. My general observations on each are as follows.

Winchester 94 - Light, trim and well balanced. The older ones are very well put together. Many made in the 70s and 80s are pure junk. Even the old ones have too much slop in the action to suit me. Most I have owned have been accurate enough

Winchester-Browning 92 - The slickest levergun I know of. They are extremely light and handy, but very expensive for the originals and Miroku clones. The Rossi, EMF, etc 92 clones can be made into very serviceable deer rifles, but are often quite rough from the factory.

Winchester/Browning 1886/71 - Same action, different stock and chambering. Strongest levergun design out there. The action is pure butter when broken in. Even the lightest ones are pretty heavy for a general use hunting rifle. The originals are too expensive for most of us to even think about hunting with and the reproductions have starting prices in the 1K range.

Winchester 88 - Well balanced, chambered in 284 and other longer range cartridges. Bigger and heavier than I would like and the triggers on the three I have owned ranged from heavy to awful. One early 308 I had was very accurate though. They have a very smooth action.

Marlin 336 - A little heavier than the Winchester, but much more user friendly and chambered in the excellent 35 Rem which the Winchester is not. The older ones are smooth as glass, the newer ones a more hit and miss on the quality. I have had several that were sub MOA shooters. A great value for the money

Marlin 1895 - Working man's 45-70. They are great big bore rifles for the money. Easy to scope or mount a receiver sight. Usually quite accurate. I especially like the 1970s versions with the 22" barrel and straight stock.

Marlin 1894 - Working man's pistol cartridge carbine. They are almost as light and handy as the 92s, but much more user friendly with regard to scopes, reciever sights and takedown. The older ones seem to have better fit and finish than the newer ones on average. I have had several that were very accurate. The used ones are a great value for the money.

Browning BLR - Extremely smooth with wonderful fit and finish (too shiny and fancy for a hunting rifle in my opinion). Chambered in just about all of the popular long range cartridges. The short actions are great, the long actions seem very awkward to operate to me. They do not have the feel of a levergun to me and the whole trigger assembly moving with the lever does not seem natural. The ones I have had very accurate though.

Savage 99 - The action takes some getting used to, but is very fast once you get the motion down. Some of the newer ones with the pressed checkering, no cartridge counter etc are near junk, but not as bad as the Winchester 94s of the same vintage. The older premillion rifles are very well made and wonderfully balanced. Anyone who thinks a 99 is not well balanced should handle and 99EG with a receiver sight or a 99F with a compact scope. The lever safety is a bit awkward to use. I have had several that were very accurate. As a pure hunting rifle, it is hard to beat a 1950s 99F in 300 Savage or 308.

re:Gringoloco
appreciate the update on Marlin's 444-my brother-in-law bought one of the first of them, they loaded the first 444's with pistol bullets-I think it was a gimmick to get the muzzle velocity to be impressive-had a house full of guns at the time-one of my favorites was a348 Winchester-he was very depressed when I showed him the downrange ballistics the 348 was already outrunning him at 100 yds., at 200 yds. comparing the 444 to the 348 is a joke.

I liked them too, gave my son one in 300 Savage; he keeps it more as an heirloom.

I had an "original" 444 Marlin for years, probably late 60s/early 70s production? I got it used in the late 70s. 24" barrel, big clunky butt stock.

It shot very well with factory 240gr loads. Even better with 200gr jacketed HP pistol bullets (Speers and XTPs) and 47grs of IMR 4198. Two touching, third shot within an 1/8" or less, scoped and rested at 100 yards, although I mostly used it with a Williams "peep".

Never saw any reason to stoke it with heavier bullets, as it killed every whitetail I ever fired it at, with 200gr bullets.

Also made some impressive exit holes on broadside shots, generally resulting in the deer on the ground where it had been, when the Marlin went bang.

redubePA
When I wrote 444 vs. 348, didn't want to P.O. anybody with a 444-I did not say it wouldn't kill a deer-I was merely expressing an interest in rifling twists, the stabilization of a bullet of a given weight-I dug out an old Hornady reloading manual, the rifle they tested was a 336 24" barrel, 1 in 38" twist, 265gr FP Hornady that they introduced in 1967(the bullet)-max. velocity 2200fps-on the very next page(pp254), 45-70 1886 WIN rifle,barrel 26", 1 in 22", 300gr short jacket max. velocity 1700fps-
If it makes you feel any better, my 348 is a Model 71 24" barrel, 1 in 12" twist, I feel this is the wrong twist for the 348-seems to me that it should have been 1 in 16"-it shoots 150gr into less than 1" at 100 yds.-200gr 2" or so -250gr 3.5" avg.-
The 35 REM, 350 REM MAG and 35 Wheeling are all turned 1 in 16" and I feel that this would be the ultimate twist to stabilize bullets 200gr or better
I cropped deer(illegally) for two different ranchers back in the 60's and killed over 200 deer with the 348, no better deer killer at 200 yds and under have I ever seen. My favorite cal. had always been the REM 7mm mag and 270. I prefer the 7 because of the wide selection of bullets. Hope I haven't offended any gun owners with my blather. I think a man should own as many guns as his wife allows, so I'll give one bit of advice: I tell my wife these guns are like a bank account for her after my demise. As she sees the value of the rifles in closet go up, she keeps encouraging me to buy more!!!

I have a Browning 71 Carbine, but have yet to shoot it ... blasphemy I know . Still lack some components to load her up. I haven't even looked to see what twist it has. I wonder how difficult/feasible it would be to form .348 brass from 45/70 cases.

TBB,

I like your reporting style: what you observed and how you feel. Your love for these grand old rifles comes through as well.

a tip of the hat to you,

Sycamore

Isn't by any chance the Sporting Carbine version, is it? That's what my 35 Rem M336SC is, with "Half magazine". Mine is about that same vintage, never drilled/tapped for scope bases.

Absolutely the smoothest trigger pull I've ever come across in a lever action rifle. It is one slick little package to tote for deer.

No harm, oldgunsmith. Merely chiming-in on the topic of the twist in the original 444 Marlins. Never found the need to load heavier bullets for deer, is all. 200gr pistol bullets killed 'em about as dead as they needed to be.

Scoped it one year for the purpose of seeing how accurate my latest loads were from the bench, hence mention of how they tended to be two bullets cutting each other and the third one right close by. Killed one deer with the scope, went back to a Williams again.

Yes, it is the Sports Carbine, 336SC. It has a Redfield coinslot peep sight.

re:Gringo Loco
if you ever carry that Model 71 into the woods, you'll be ready for anything you find in the woods-even the much dreaded chupacabra!!! The cases for 348 are necked down 50 cal. not 45/70-much bigger at the base-when you throw the action open, the gaping hole of the chamber looks like it will take a 20ga. shotgun shell-it spits those bullets out at about the same velocity as a 30.06 making it the most powerful lever gun with a hammer other than the Model 95 Winchester possibly-I'm very anxious to find out what the twist is in the Browning 71-I don't know if my broken neck would stand the recoil anymore but if the twist is right, I will buy one-good luck on finding ammo-I think I know a source, if they have any, I will let you know

Other than your classy Redfield, as opposed to my sleazy ol' aluminum Williams, that's identical to mine.

"Saved" mine, when I found it in a gunshop some years ago. Figured it had lasted 50 years without someone drilling holes in it, so gave it a good home at a very good price, too. No regrets, it's a sweetheart.

Mine shoots Rem factory 200gr Core Lokts so well, haven't messed around with any handloads for it yet. Hadn't killed a deer w/factory ammo for many years, prior to getting that rifle.

oldgunsmith,

If necessary, I could just stuff a rod down my Browning 71 and determine the twist ... I'm not looking to buy factory ammo. I just wince everytime I figure the price of .348 brass the few times I find it. Ouch!!! Although the rifle wasn't cheap, I didn't pay as much as I see most of them listed for.

Honestly, sometimes I think I have too many choices when season rolls around. I guess I remember when I didn't have choices, and felt the need to rectify it ... with more than a little overlap in calibers .

Incidentally, I saw a thread on the shootersforum (post #43 by 3840wcf) where it was posted that Clements Custom Guns formed 348 from 45/70. See pic below. The greater diameter at the base is the biggest difference I noted in comparing the dimensions of the .348 and the 45/70. The rims are virtually identical. The overall length of the 45/70 is a few hairs short, but might lengthen when worked. I've never taken on any such task, but it's kind of intriguing ... but probably more effort required than just buying 348 brass. Perhaps they fire-formed it ? I note he also states, that it equals the ballistics ... perhaps the case capacity is slightly different, but with similar pressures with worked up loads.


By Clements custom guns. Brass is formed from 45/70 and equals the ballistics of the .348 Winchester

re:/gringo loco
I'll write you tomorrow, but I don't believe thats a true 348-believe its a wildcat based on a 348-its late tonite,take it from an old gunsmith, a 45/70 case necked down to 348 fired in a 348 chamber would rupture at the base every time if I had an address, I would send you some 348 cases

Gringo Loco,

I just bought a BUNCH of 348 cases from Blue Star Brass Company. Great guys and good prices. I needed new brass 'cause the old ammo I had ruptured the cases at the necks when fired in my 348AI chamber. With the AI version I am pushing 250gr Barnes originals at 2500 and 200gr Hornady flat noses at 2750. I am anxious to use these on game this year! My model 71 Deluxe was alreaady AI'ed when I bought it which is why I got it for only $1200 with 348AI dies and 100 pieces of formed ready to shoot ammo. I would not suggest anyone now should AI an original, let alone an early deluxe version..... but a Browning repro? Yeah, baby!

Anyway, you have a nice rifle there and I hope you get to use it on a critter or three this year.

The ammo you show in the photo looks a lot like my AI'ed 348 cases excepting being narrower being based on the 45/70 rather than the 50/70 case. My AI'ed 348's hold GOBS of gunpowder.

I believe you're right oldgunsmith ... when I first saw the difference in diameter of the bases of these cartridge's diagrams, .5530 vs. .5055, I scratched my head and wondered if it's even possible to do. I don't think I would trust it's safety even if it could. That post by 3840wcf never did specify it was for a 71 chambered for 348.

I appreciate the offer for brass, but really couldn't accept. Thanks. Heck, .358 Win brass is getting high too ... guess I'm just a cheapskate . I have plenty of .358 brass though, and it's no trick to make it from 308.

Incidentally, I measured the twist rate for my Browning 71 Carbine. It is 1:12.

Safariman,

The idea of AI'ing the .348 had occurred to me. It certainly is a cartridge that would maximize its worth improved. Maybe some day. Those are impressive numbers you're getting and glad you posted them as I was curious about it.

re:Gringo Loco
Seriously you are welcome to the old cases-need polishing,havejust short of a box-will send a 45/70 case too-you will see how much longer the 348 is-let me know-I am molding bullets on the front porch in the evenings, and since you say you are a cheapskate, cast bullets are the way to go for just plinking at much lower velocities-somebody said the other day that the 348 was a 50/70 necked down, I believe it was the 50/90 possibly- Safariman was right about the punch of the 348- it's not a rifle that you want to shoot from the prone position all day-If he would aneal his brass before he fire forms it, he would suffer much fewer losses from splitting-I had to do this with a 17 Ackley imp. bee-you are going to find that the 150gr bullet is much more accurate than the heavier ones, but only God knows where you can find some-if you are not interested in ever shooting the gun because of the price of ammo, I have a near mint pre 64 30-30 I'll trade you even have a few boxes of shells and dies to go with it, then your worries will be over!!!!-really, it's worth three dollars a shot just to see what you've got-you are going to love that rifle-try cheaper than dirt for 348 WIN 200gr silvertip 20/bx for 60.18-also midwayusa,impactguns,mcgcreek for brass the last one advertises their brass at 26.85 for 50

I like the 94 in .30-30. A classic Savage 99 is also cool.

the 94 carries and comes to shoulder like it is a part of me. Not got the durability of the 99 or the 336, but absolutely dependable if you work the action aggresively. I have an old pre 64 model 94 given me by a friend a couple years after I had to sell my 1898 94 to buy milk for the kids. That is a pretty good friend.
Randy

I'll manage oldgunsmith. Thanks for the additional sources. As much as I'd like to have a pre-64 30-30, I'll hang onto my 71 . I didn't pick it up for a song, but I did pay a fair bit less than a G for it. It has some minor blemishes. I really like it.

A thought though ... if you get yourself another 71, how hard would it be to re-barrel it to a different twist ... if that's what you want. Being a gunsmith, that's probably no great trick for you. Caveat though, an article I read noted that the Winchester 71 barrel threads are different from the Browning repro's. And further noted that the Browning barrel was screwed on really tight.

Here is a link to that Article: Browning 71 - Leverguns.com

Several I like the primary is the model 71 but I wouldn't carry one in the woods. Too expensive. For hunting I'd say the 336 is my preference then the model 1894 Marlin. I've got a pre-64 Winchester but usually take out the Marlins. I'm surprised one of the finest lever guns produced wasn't mentioned. Sako Finwolf in 308.

Marlin, good to see you around. Hopefully your summer went well.

re:Gringo Loco
If you read my letter closely you'll see I was joking about the trade-anyone that would make that trade would have to be crazy-but you know with that Gringo Loco label.......a man just has to try-I looked at this old box of WIN silvertips 200gr. price: $6.29!!!-that will give you an idea about how old I am!!-way too creaky to shoot that 348 anymore-my ex-wife sent me out for a loaf of bread, that will soon be 20 yeaars ago-I got sidetracked in the pursuit of happiness-I left behind about 70 really nice guns and a few unbarrelled actions and a complete shop-the lesson I learned is that NOTHING is worth your happiness-take care and be happy-if I rebarrel a 348 I will do it with a 358 dia. barrel-at least that will take care of my bullet selection

Hmmmmmm and 358/348AI...... THAT would git're done fer sure!!!

Gringo Loco, get yourself some brass and load them up and HUNT that model 71!

I too think the 35-348 AI is one of the most logical rebarrels for a 71. The other being the 450 Alaskan. Safariman, how many loads are you typically getting out of your AI'd cases? And do you anneal them?

re:safariman
back in the early to mid 60's they had pictures in one of the gun magazines of one of the 45/348's-I dont know how much powder the old boy stoked it with, but it froze the action and discharged all the cartridges in the tube!!!!-just remember the old tube fed under heavy recoil are prone to exciting events!!-dont remember if the shooter was hurt or not, but the rifle was a s---wreck.
people do funny things-I picked up some brass at a shooting range one time, some idiot had shot some 303 Savages in a 303 British-he didn't do this once there was about a box of those 303 Savage's laying there-they looked kinda funny laying there case formed with no neck!!!I guess with some people, if it fits in the chamber.....go ahead and pull the trigger!