There has been a lot written here and elswhere about how to best to get the Excellent on game Barnes TSX and TTSX bullets to shoot well without expending enough powder and all to wear out a barrel and a credit card. I have been busy loading ammo for a good number of my non rifle looney freinds and relatives with various sizes and weights of Barnes bullets from 224 up to 338 and in each case to start out the loading process I have been loading them REALLY short - using the uppermost band or groove like I would a cannelure in a bullet so equipped and in each case so far these rifles have shot REALLY well! No need after that to mess around with more load development! I load them up with differing amounts of the most likely powder at these really minimal lengths and shoot over a Chrony until we get book max speed or superior accuracy with near top speed with the idea that after we determine a good powder charge we would then play around with the seating depth but so far these shorty rounds shoot so well that all load work is done in one range session! Yesterday I loaded some 120gr TTSX's for my Brother in Law's 7mm RemMag Browning and the first load (70gr of R-22) shot into 1/2 of an inch! Only 3300 fps instead of the possibility of 3400 at max loads but wow, my work here is done. No elk or deer OR my B.I.L. is gonna notice the 'missing' 100fps but a load that shoots into 1/2 inch...... We will take that one. This is not, in my experience, an anomaly as this has been happening over and over this whole summer so maybe those of you wanting to give these bullets a try should start out loading this way (case neck level with the middle of the top groove) and see how it works for you as a starting place. Good luck! MARK

BTW, I know that Barnes reccomends to start .050 off of the lands but a lot of my good loads with TSX and TTSX bullets have been loaded quite a bit farther than that off of the rifling so I decided to try this quick and easy first time out method this year and I am only reporting my results thus far. My thinking is this could be a good (addmitedly non scientific) quick and easy way to start out the load developement process and perhaps others here will get similar results and save a bit of time and money.

Mark, thanks for the info. I have some 100 grain 257 bullets and I'll try your method.

with a mag box maximum of 2.815 in my kimber Bob and seating 100 TSX's to just fit in the box I see a bit of the last groove just as you suggest. I can get .6 inches on a good day, most about 1 inch or less with H4350.

Thanks for the info. I only load for 1 rifle (350 Rem Mag)and, with the 200 TSX Barnes bullet, I started with the Barnes #4 listed COL, which resulted in a distance to lands of .080". This puts the case about halfway in the uppermost groove of the bullet (if I remember correctly). When I tried to shorten the distance to the lands, my groups got larger. So, logic tells me that increasing the distance to lands (or shortening the COL) may well help. Your information seems to agree with what I'm seeing in my rifle.

Like to shoot,
witch .257 caliber cartridges are you putting those tsx's in ?
If it's a Roberts, try 46 grains of H-414. It works great in both my Roberts. You might want to start at 44 grains, but this load is a half grain under max in the older barnes book, and the book says it is a 50,000 CUP load.
If it's a weatherby , try RL-22, I get aboutl a half an inch with a start of 70.5 aup to my load of 72 grains.
Or, Ramshot magnum, I started at 74.5 and stopped at 76. 3550 and .6 inches.
If it's a 25,06, I don't have one, can't help...tj3006

Good post safariman! I know we talk alot about 'Rifle Loonies' here at the 'Fire, but there are a fair share of 'Re-Load Loonies' as well. When it comes to reloading, from what I've found, the truth of the matter for hunting rifles is - choose an all-around good powder, seat the bullet so it feeds properly, and load away. If it doesn't shoot, I would imagine its more than likely a poor rifle or poor shooter rather than a poor load.

I find my 80 TTSX like it the same way - to the top band.

+1 on 72gr of R-22 for the 25ROY.

tj3006, I have a 250 Savage with a 1-10 3 groove PN, a couple of 257 Bobs, and a 25-06 with a SS Douglas XX. My thoughts for now is to go with the 25-06. But.....

You need a 257WBY!!!!!

( I also have a 250/3000.... sweet little rifles, them)

Good info. My own experience has been quite the opposite though. I kiss lands & then play with powder to find the sweet spot. Just shows there is no "wrong way" in load development. Here is a load development target from yesterday (Sunday) with my 243 Ackley using 85 grain TSX's and Re19. Notice the long seating depth and the sudden sweet spot at 49 grains.........

That sure works for you, and by all means rock on! But I am also noticing that with real short OAL's The accuracy difference from one powder charge to the next is minimal. Maybe no cloverleaf groups, but the guys I am loading for are not going to notice that difference either. I guess what I am saying is that this method will likely give GOOD (Maybe not fantastic, but good) accuracy easily. Also, pressures are low and feeding issues go away. For my own personal rifles, I go to a 'little' more effort

Looked at my best .308W load with 130gr ttsx and W748. That's where it's at.

Badger,

I never thought 0.5gr could make such a difference.

Did you confirm its accuracy by shooting more groups with the same load? Just one three-shot group can always be a fluke...

BBerg

Thats what I found to be true for 150 TTSX's out of my 280 AI. Within 10 loads/shots I had groups around 3/4", so I've loaded up 100 rounds and called it good.

I guess more often I am looking for a rugged load. My last development shoots 46, 46.5 and 47 grains of H4350 just about the same. I am not so much looking for that 1/10th of an inch 5 shot groups anymore, just something where if its too hot or too cold or you make a .1 grain error it don't matter.

I am with you on that note for sure...... I am no longer trying for the last 25FPS and in a big game hunting rifle if my loads for my own guns are shooting under a 1 inch group consistently I am through spending money on components for it or continueing to wear on the barrel and my body (some of my guns kick kinda hard ) and prefer to use up the components shooting at rocks and varmints for practice and then on game. I might get my rifle looney card revoked for these comments, though.........

Mark,

By chance did you take your BIL's 7mm and shoot the rifle with the bullet seated longer. Yes, I certainly would call your results more than adequate but I wonder if it is just a good shooting rifle.

I've had some rifles that would shoot a dirt bullet sub-MOA but then others that required everything to be just right.

Thanks for the tip

I was able to repeat the 49grn group (0.33") just as it started to rain and turned the paper to mush . I feel good enough that I loaded 25 rounds for the season & called it good.

Most hard and fast rules are out when it comes to the seating of current Barnes bullets these days. I run 3 different TSX's/TTSX's in my rifles. Some shoot much better waaaaay off the riflings while other's flaunt their stuff up close and personal.

I have spoken with Barnes techs alot over the years, but a bit more this past year as I've worked up new loads for my 25-06, 270WSM and 300WSM with their TSX's/TTSX's. As was to be expected, there's no definitive seating depth that will produce the best results for all people, all the time. I do start further off of the riflings than I normally would with these bullets, but if I don't get what I'm looking for, I load 4 more seated a bit shorter and 4 more seated a bit further out. Then, with whichever group seems to tighten up more than the other, I continue seating changes in that direction until the results either satisfy my goals or they don't.

In actuality, outside of starting a bit further off the lands than I normally would, the "hunt" and methodology for finding that perfect seating depth remains essentially the same for me.

My 25-06 shoots the 100gr. TTSX's much closer to the riflings than where Barnes recommends starting out. In speaking with Barnes recently, they said that my seating depth results have been pretty standard with the 100gr. TTSX in the quarterbore.

All said and done, finding the best seating depth for each bullet, rifle, hunter........is still accomplished best by doin' the work. Like it always has...........

Have a good season....

really close to the lands works well for extremely consistent bullets like say a berger match bullet, they have very consistent ogive lengths, however with the TSX its very common to have that vary by .004 or more, in which case a bullet will normally shoot better further from the lands. I like the idea of using the top ring, especially for loading for different people, the case should always fit every gun and there is no time spent playing around with length gauges etc

Thanks for the good input Mark, this is what the Fire is all about, great info

I like the idea of starting at the top band. One thing to watch out for with the TSX and TTSX bullets is the inconsistency of the location of the bands from lot to lot. I have seen on more than one occasion where this occured with the TSX. When I sent some examples back to Barnes to see if it was a quality control issue or something that could lead to an unsafe load. They replied with a general canned letter response of the bands are there to relieve pressure by reducing bearing surface and that their location on the bullet shank will have no effect on accuracy.

I tend to disagree with their statement and feel that their quality control is poor, and that they really dismissed me as a serious handloader and customer. Just be advised to check those groove locations for consistency.

Love checkin out them grooves.....

I've had the same experience with TSX's.

Every bullet manufacturer updates their bullets, and Barnes is no exception...

The groove location is not an update. It is an inconsistency at the manufacturing level. Either that, or Barnes can't make up it's mind on where to keep the grooves exactly. Their video shows the machine cutting the grooves into the shank of a bullet. Some how that machine is getting set up differently from time to time, or it becomes out of adjustment from use. Anybody ever have a TSX that has more or fewer grooves than before?

New to this forum, but I posted this on a few others I enjoy. I was very interested in this thread. Here are the details.

22-250 1-14 twist 24" barrel. Rem Case, 210M, 34gr Benchmark, 53 TSX @ COL 2.360.



I will have to measure to see exactly how far off the lands I am, but I believe I am over the 30-70 thousandths suggested range by Barnes.

The FPS was from 3644 LOW - 3672 HIGH.

I believe I touch the lands at 2.483 in this rifle. I am currently seated just about flush with only the first groove showing right now.

Suggestions?

Interesting information. Maybe for TSX we should start short (in the top groove) and work longer--just about the opposite mentality of kissing the lands and working back.

Personally, I would do one or the other, rather than starting in the "middle" and fanning out in both directions. Too many variables to keep track of.

My empiracal and not too scientifically based experience suggests that starting out short and going long from there would get you to a good load faster then the other way around. You might find that the first load out of the gate is a dandy.

My 375 Ruger is shooting 270 grain TSX's into amazing little groups, my current seating depth is .10 off the lands, whole top groove exposed. Its weird to me how soo many guys like the TSX's kissing, IME they have shot best seated shorter.

I just picked up a box of Federal 110 TTSX's in 25-06, and I can't even see the top groove. Haven't measured OAL, but they have it seated even deeper than y'all are describing, so it appears the factory fodder may be taking the same approach.

Interesting...and thanks for the info - will be helpful when I start load development on 3 or 4 rifles in which I want to run TSX's or TTSX's.

DJ

Yup.

Doesn't Barnes recommend that they be given some "jump"?

I think I remember two time ex campfire member touting that as he holy grail for Barnes bullets. would be interested to hear from others who have tried it both ways..........the bullet seating depth thing that is..not.....nevermind.

My 25-06 will not shoot them worth a damn until I get to .06 off, then it goes from 2.0 moa to 0.2 moa.

I started my 3006 at SAAMI OAL max for a starter and it shoots .75-1.0" any given day...so I quit there. For me that is strange, but it is a hunting rifle, and I am not that good of a shot anymore. The bullets are seated so about 1/3 of the first groove is beyond the case mouth, with the bullet just kissing the lands, there is a full groove plus exposed. I could do the math but there is no need.

I loaded my 338 winnie to OAL length according to the Barnes #4 manual, for starters, and it shot .5" right off the start with starting loads at 2900 ft/sec with 185 gr bullets. The front groove is crimped right at the top and just visible. That rifle has always been a tack driver and when checking the scope on arrival in Africa this spring, I shot a three shot group under .5" which impressed the PH until my wife shot one, adjusted the scope 1/4 " and then shot three that were significantly smaller.
Randy

Thanks for the post safari, I tried TTSXs in a 25-06 and a 270win for a couple of range sessions and had terrible accuracy from two accurate rigs, but I was indeed loading them a few thou off the lands. I haven't tinkered with them in several weeks, but I'm going to stuff a few deep as suggested and see if things come together.

Have a Good One,

loder

I have got to try it! I have some 100TSX bullets seated to 2.815 the length of the magazine in my kimber, they shoot into about an inch on average sometimes better, so I will push them down until you cannot see the last ring and shoot three of them?

Guys, go back 10/1000th" at a time, just like test testing powder loads, you'll be amazed at the accuracy that TSX's will provide. Guessing is better than loadin' em touching, but Barnes bullets normally do not want to be close to the lands!

Mr Safariman, I want to thank you for your post. The information was very timeley in my case. I started out with the Barnes 168 TTSX in my 06 at 0.50 out of the lands and got about 1/1/2 inch groups. Dissapointing since it shoots well under an inch with 168 grain ballistic tips seated 0.020 off the lands. Load is 58.5 RL19, Nosler brass and CCI primers. I was ready to give up for now on the Barnes at least for this hunting season..Come back to them when I have more time to experiment and go to the range. Combined with your tip and also another suggestion on a different forum suggesting a COL of 3.250 for the 06 with this bullet I loaded up 6 and went to the range. I got a 3/8 2 shot group and a 3/4 inch 3 shot group. With this seating and this brass (new but run through the sizing die)the last groove is just covered up. Seems like the 3.250 measurement is a good place to start with this bullet and caliber... PHIL

Too late to edit, but noticed I said 25-06 on the factory TTSX's in 110 grain - they are, of course 270 Win, not 25-06...

DJ

My .257Roy Vanguard Sub MOA likes the TSX seated to 3.170 which is just below the first groove. I tried seating them at 3.300 but shot like crap, I then moved them to 3.200 and noticed the groups tightening, so I kept seating them deeper until they started opening back up. I finally found 3.170 to be the magic depth. IIRC Weatherby factory 100gr ammo is seated at 3.160. My load of 73.0gr of RL22 is smoking @ 3,600+fps and shoots under 1/2 MOA.

Safariman - Excellent post and thanks for the information. I am starting load development for my .260 Rem with 120 and 130 gr. TSX bullets. I will incorporate your suggestions and am looking forward to see how they shoot.

Kevin, Good luck and please do report back.

Phil aka Seamount, You are quite welcome, sir. VERY glad to hear that the tip helped out some. Congratulations on your load shooting so well.

MARK

I've shot .338 225 gr TSX out of a 338 win mag, .375 270 gr TSX out of a 375 h&h and 375 Ruger. so far my best groups are when the top groove is exposed but the case comes up to the edge of the top groove. I've gotten sub MOA always seating to that depth with the most popular power for that bullet weight and cartridge.

The only problem that I foresee with this setup is that different models of the TSX/TTSX bullet have a different number of rings, and the rings are spaced differently along the shank of the bullet, affecting the distance to the lands when seated to the top ring.

I think most of them are proportionately the same, but there is some variation, I believe. For 90% of the TSX/TTSX bullet line that I've tested, this is an excellent observation!

Could someone please post a picture of this just for clarification. Thanks

Well, I'm loading some 115 gr TSX's tonight in the .25-06, with a charge of R22, and launching them out of a B78 this weekend, so we'll see what happens!

seated my barnes 100TSX in my .257 robers to cover 3/4 of "cannalure" shot 3 into 3/4 inch in my Kimber,

Went to the range today with two guns that had been giving me trouble with seating depth. Instead of starting the workup at .050 off I started at .010 and ended at .010. Just when you figure you have a shortcut you lose it. Both rifles dropped into the 1/2 inch range with a little tuning on the charge weight.

Generally I found that all Barnes bullets, TSX, TTSX and the Varmint Grenade like to jump. I usually start with factory OAL seating depth, and adjust from there. This has proven best with the .204 Ruger, .223 Remington and .22-250 and Varmint Grenades. The exception came with the new .257 80 grain Tipped TSX boat tail bullet. This bullet shoot best in my rifle with .050" jump.

Being in California's lead free bullet zone, I couldn't use my purpose built rifle after July 1, 2007 for ground squirrels. The rifle is an old Remington 700 built by Greg Tannel with a Schneider barrel and chambered for the .257 Roberts A.I. with a .287" neck.



Group above shows the fouling shot, upper left, then a group of eight shots clustered on the .5" red diamond, and one complete blow-it "oh damn-why did touch the trigger?" I wasn't watching the wind flags - it was kicking up pretty good, I was thinking of a hot Wendy's Bacon Cheeseburger on the way home.

Those little TTSX's at 3,464 fps really scramble the squirrels. This is smallest squirrel I have ever hit at 200 yards - maybe he was 4" standing on his haunches, couldn't measure as a large part was missing.



The rest of the squirrels looked like they were run through a blender, not bad performance for a bullet designed for deer sized targets.

NICE group! Good job on the rodent, too.

Hopefully Barnes will come out with a Grenade in .257 cal.

A 65 - 70gr Grenade could be a lot of fun in my 27.5 inch bbl'ed 257WBY!

i tried this and made it great accuracy with it loaded to the land in between the first and second grooves. 5 shots into 5/8"

It really depends on the throat of the barrel you are loading for.
OAL is not the key, distance off the rifling is. The way to spend the least money is to buy a Hornady (ex Stoney Point) bullet seating gauge, the right adapter cartridge and a set of vernier calipers. That will tell you where the bullets hit the rifling.
My 6.5x55 Sedgley c.1935 and throated for 160 RN gr bullets can use a L-o-t longer OAL than my 6.5x55 Tikka 595 throated for modern spitzers.
40-60 thou off usually works regardless of the OAL.
Yes I am a Barnes addict!

oldman1942 (Hey that ain't so old - I came along in 1945) There's one other factor with Barnes bullets, twist rates. I just couldn't get the 62 grain VG to shoot in any 6mm PPC I own. The Sako with 1:14 wouldn't send them down range point-on. So I barreled up a Savage action with a 1:10 twist, it shoots okay, but won me a Distinguished Flying Cross for its unpredictable flyers. Couldn't get enough powder in the case, that .972" long bullet took up too much space. So I reamed the throat 0.10" forward and seated them no deeper than .243" into the neck, at .020" off. Better, but not good enough. The Miller twist calculator showed them just under the minimum stability factor at any velocity obtainable in that case. Finally gave up and ordered a 1:8 twist chambered in .243 WSSM for a little more powder capacity.

The Barnes .224" 50 grain VG shoots very well in my .22-250 that I had rebarreled with a 1:10 twist, and the same for the .220 Swift. But in the old .223 Remington 788 with a 1:14 twist it wouldn't group. So I picked up a Savage barrel in 1:9 polygonal from Pac-Nor, and now the .223 Remington shoots fine.

Bottom line is that if a particular Barnes doesn't shoot, check the twist after seating depth. Barnes now lists minimum twist for many of the problematic bullets on their website and in the relaoding manual. Barnes bullets are truly amazing, they sometimes need a little adapting for maximum accuracy, but it's well worth the effort.

WJ,

Try the Barnes 36gr Grenade in your model 788. I use it in my old Sako's and other slow twist rifles and love its accuracy and on game performance.

Yep, they are different but truly worth the effort should some be required. Important to go down a weight range or two right off the bat.

Safariman,

Wanted to thank you for the guidance on the TTSXs. I still have some work to do with the 100gr version, but definitely found a load with the 80gr version. Had to back the velocity down to 3715 (max is around 3850), but I don't think they'll bounce off.

John

Just found this thread - thank goodness of the 24hourcampfire google search engine.

While I could do my homework and get a rough idea of how far off the lands Safarijim's tip works out to, has anyone actually measured the length off the lands to the ogive - better yet has anyone done this for the .300 WSM for the following Barnes flavors - 150, 165, 168, and 180 grain TSXs/TTSXs.

Thanks, in advance

Like you, H4350 is the powder of choice in my Rugeer .257 Roberts. With 100g TTSX/115g TSX I seat them so they fit in the mag which still leaves the bullets quite a way off the lands. Accuracy with the 100g TTSX and 115g TSX has been outstanding.

Would not matter if I measured the distances in several other 300WSM's..... what amtters most is the measurement in YOURS, and that measurement will vary rifle to rifle. More than that though, this thread was about the fact that loading these things WAAAAYYY off of the lands (as in using the top groove as a cannelure per this thread start) usually works great and ends the search and usage of much gunpowder and barrel life. Glad you are enjoying it and benefiting from it. MARK

Has anyone loaded a 120grn Barnes in a 6.5x55 and found the sweet spot for distance from lans? I shoot this combination in a Tikka T3 and would like to compare it to my load. Thanks
Buckfever1

Got a note from Aliant powder they say use RL17 like IMR4350, of course disclaimer regards watching for pressure signs etc.

I have wondered how the 115 would shoot but don't think I need to got to this weight for WT deer. I would think that a 115 at 3100 FPS from the bob would "way over penetrate" on deer, maybe more of an moose load...

Hi Safariman,

Perhaps I should have provided a rationale/reason for my question - I am interested in the distance from the lands from a safety point of view. I am fairly new to reloading, but I remember reading from another post that bullets seated too far from the lands can also be dangerous - I can't remember why, but I remember this being stated. It would make me feel better/safer to know how far others are seating their bullets away from the lands (to know what I depth I should limit myself to). Hence, I asked my question not from a accuracy standpoint, but a safety standpoin (I know rifles have different preferences/characteristics - including the length of the leade - which means different guns will have different "accuracy-related" characteristics).

As other have already said, thanks. This may save me a lot of time (and money) in developing TTSX loads for my .300 WSM.

i'd like to know as well

It depends on the rifle. On some you'll never reach the lands.

Welcome to our hobby, or.... uuhhhh AFFLICTION!

There is no danger seating bullets too deep, at leaset with most rifle ammo. Getting them too close to or into the lands is cause for concern. As you seat the bullet farther and farther away from the lands the pressure goes down, not up as the bullets get more of a free jump to the lands during the time when the pressure curve is the steepest. Still, be careful as always and even with a deeply seated bullet start with lighter loads and work up.

Good luck and good hunting!

This is the second group I ever shot out of my 300WSM Savage 16FLSS. I love it when load development goes like this!

I have two new M70 Winchesters in 3006. I have both 168 and 180 TTSX loads that are shooting 1 inch or less with between .090 and .100 off the lands. Powder is H4350. 168--56 grains, 180---54.5 grains. Win Brass and WLR primers. Deeper into the case than .100 will start to compress the powder with both loads. These are mild loads in my guns but but start lower as per all the good advice here. I started at .050 as per Barnes info but had to go to .090 to get a good result with my set up. Hope this gives some additional info that will be useful... Phil

Thanks Safariman for the advice, I have a Remington 700 ADL 30-06 with a 22" barrel, 1/10 twist and was trying to shoot the Barnes 168 gr TTSX. Seating them to your recommended depth helped out tremendously. However, I still was not getting types of groups I was looking for so I dropped down to a 150 gr TTSX seated to an OGL of 2.587 (I think that comes out to COAL of 3.218" if I remember correctly), Winchester Brass, and WLR primers. I got my best groups using 50-51 grains of H4895, still trying to fine tune this load but so far I have gotten 0.982" group with 51 gr H4895 and 0.808" group with 50 gr H4895 at 100 yards.

I also got good results with 51.5 - 52.5 gr of Varget behind the 150 TTSX but started to run out of daylight so I couldn't let the barrel cool down as much as I would have liked. I will go out to the range again and try this load again.

Seating the bullets to the depth you and Barnes recommended gives them a huge jump (0.229" = 5.82mm according to my Hornady OAL gauge measurements, after doing the math) in my gun b/c of the significant amount of freebore, but it worked.

Before I saw your post I was getting terrible groups 3"-4" groups with numerous flyers at 100 yards by trying to seat them 0.050-0.070 off the lands.

Bottom line is that I gave up trying to chase the lands and seated them deep and it worked, at least in my 06. I would have loved to use the 168 gr TTSX but I just couldn't make them shoot in my gun, so 150 TTSX it is.

165 MRX gave me good results with 57-57.5 gr IMR 4350 as well but I can't find them anywhere. In fact, at Sportsmen's Warehouse there isn't even a slot on the shelf for them anymore, not to mention they cost $34-$38 for 20 bullets depending on where you buy them.

Thanks for the advice.

Shaking my head..............

My method with Barnes MRX/TSX/TTSX is to load them about .070� off the lands. Then I load one round each at 0.5g powder increments, generally 10 rounds total with the last at max book powder charge or just beyond. (The top loads often get taken home and torn apart rather than fired.) I shoot over a chrono and record the velocity and POI for each shot. When I am done I look at the velocities and POIs ad search for a string of shots that provided consistent accuracy with a steady increase in velocity. If I find such a string (and I almost always do), I pick a load from the middle of the string and load up a small batch with that powder charge for further testing.

This method saves a lot of expense when working up loads with expensive bullets and I�ve rarely been disappointed. The only real problem I can think of was with my 7mm RM and 120g and 140g bullets with the traditional powder I had used with 160g bullets. Switching powders to IMR-7828SSC) solved everything.

Interesting.....thanks, I will try it.

so .070" is the magic distance for every Barnes MRX/TSX/TTSX....now I'm shaking my head

Well, ya made me go and look-
By some wierd coincidence, my .280 Rem., .270 WSM, and .300 Wby Mag. handloads, all carefully worked up and very accurate with the TSX bullet, are all loaded with the bottom of the uppermost band at the case mouth!

Not so with my .257 Wby, tho- it is seated a bit further out.

I have a 300 rum that shoots bug holes seated waaaay deep. Never thought to address here at the fire for the thought of getting lip lashed by stick

Not necessarily, just a distance that has worked for me in my .257 Roberts, 7mm RM,.308 Win, two .30-06's and .300 WM.

I'm not going for competition accuracy, but sub-MOA loads are common using my method, and it saves a lot in bullet costs.

YMMV.

I have shot Federal factory ammo in my 243 with 85gr TSX's and they are seated at the top most band. They shot under an inch and if or when i start loading TSXs for my 243, thats where Ill start seating them at also.

I may give that a shot, I guess you could say I'm a poor med student who is strapped for cash and time. A friend of a friend of mine has a chrono, I may see if I can use his. If I did this what velocity range am I looking to obtain. The gun is going to be used as a hunting rifle, so while I want to get the absolute tightest group possible I want to make sure that I can make a quick, clean, ethical kill out to about 350 yds max. Since MV controls many of the factors of calculating bullet drop it would be nice to have a chrono.
Also, how did you control the neck tension with the bullet seated out to 0.070" off the lands (Redding Type S bushing dies, which I don't own). Problem with my rifle is that when measuring the distance to the lands the bullet is just about out of the case, which is why I thought the 168gr TTSX would work b/c it is longer at around 1.42". Even with 165 gr Nosler Ballistic Tip BT's seating them out further gave me poor results. I am relatively new to reloading so any advice would be helpful.

I'm going fishing and will come back and hook you boys later...............

The ONLY rifle out of 18 that I load Barnes for that ive ever had to play with after the first session was a 7/08 Ti....i sold it for $800 and moved down the road.

The rest shoot better than MOA and some much better.

Robert

I can see the Swirl already

At least I sold the Ti here....I bought it for $650 over at AR so I made a couple of bucks.


Here are a few.......











Robert

I hear good things about the Ti 7-08's.

They don't shoot X's though,huh?..................

catch anything?

Weren't so bad.








For conversation,the Montucky 223AI's belly is full of 62TSX seated to kiss and I reckon I'll have me another victim to the boat,here in no time...............

kissin's bad. i read in the reloading forum that a hunting rifle load should never be seated in the lands. nice pics!!!

Sum 'bitch, must be a $20,000 camera. Pic clarity is almost like being there.

Your daughter paints her finger nails green on the right hand, blue on the left. Lol ...my step-daughter does the same.

You're liking that Siggy 1.4....

very nice!

Loving it,in all honesty.

Nice to have shutter speeds over 1/100+ at ISO 100 (WFO @ 1.4 obviously),on what's far shy of a balmy day. Bokeh is subjective,but I like what it yields in that regard and AF is 100% on the money via my 1D3. Might tote my 1Ds tomorrow,to reduce DOF another sliver WFO and to save some foot zooming,while wading atop ice. Trying to gun it WFO as a default,to pinpoint shortcomings,which thus far are none.

These itty-bitty images crush the inherent IQ,which is fairly skookum in all regards.

Can now say that the Siggy 50mm F/1.4 resists water(understatement).....................(grin)

Here's a trick I just learned (don't say it). When I replied to your post the pics came up full sized. They looked great BTW. Guess I never noticed that b4

I was busy releasing my feesh and doing my thing,so didn't catch the nails until late in the day,'bout time we'd froze out and punted.

It didn't affect her casting,fighting feesh,riggin' tackle nor trigger finger....so I just stayed outta her road..............

Never gawked 'em that way,but lament the compression anyhow.

Learned me a trick and the day ain't even over yet............

Gotta say..you DO have a knack with a camera....

You oughtta see me with a rifle,from my hind legs......................(grin)

Always liked shooting from my hind legs too,and I have my moments....

And practicing that way makes it seems luxurious when you can grab any kind of a rest...which is most of the time...

MPAJ is as "fancy" as I get,if only because I've never seen anything beyond it,available in the field.

I'm the MASTER of makeshift.................

Excellent pics Stick!

There were lotsa colors to contrast,which worked nicely..............

Those are right up there with your Pops buck from a year or two ago.

Nawwwwwwww...Pop's take the Prize,by landslide............

Palerider3 �

First, using your friend�s chrono is a good idea. The reason I use .5g powder increments and look for a string of shots that provide good accuracy and consistent velocity increases is that such strings generally represent a sweet spot that is tolerant of minor variations in powder charges. I much prefer to use a load in the middle of such a string for that reason.

What kind of velocity can you expect? Every rifle is different but my two Ruger .30-06s both run about 2900fps with the 168g TTSX and H4350. I load them at 2813fps for my son-in-law�s Savage .30-06. Last time I chrono�d an MRX in one of my .30-06s it was running 2861fps with H4350. All have 22� barrels.

Haven�t tried anything in 150�s except the AccuBond, so I can�t help with Barnes 150g velocities.

What do I do to control neck tension? Not much. I�m a fanatic on case length and trim fairly regularly. I full-length size the cases (I build good hunting ammo, not match ammo) and if I have cases .005� over trim length, I trim the whole batch. Other than making sure I have adequate seating depth inside the neck, I don�t do anything special for neck tension � no crimping except on my straight-wall rifle and pistol cases. My preference is to seat to the bottom of the neck, or very close to it. I�ve often joked that in some of my rifles the bullets couldn�t touch the lands with a stick. My Bob is that way and it is a hell of a shooter.

For 350 yards you don�t need super accurate ammo unless you are shooting 13-stripe ground squirrels -- 2� at 100 is more than adequate for antelope and up at 350 yards, no matter how unsatisfactory they may be for you personally. (Such accuracy in a bolt gun would not make me happy, either.)

Hope this helps.

Shaking my head................(again)

Oh I got it to shoot a little before I sent it on it's way. Not much use for a pencil barrelled mountain rifle down in the swamps....though I would have made a spot if it had shot the way I wanted it to.



Bruz

Beautiful pics by the way.

Robert

Hell...I musta got a "bad" one.



Points awarded for the humor,with the '414 and the 2.735" COAL!..............

Shake it all you like. I have better things to do than care.

Which is why you Posted yet another whine,to elaborate upon your gross stupidity.

No need,it's well beyond obvious................

You do "pompous" and condescension well enough that you could forgo the personal put-downs.

Congratulations, Big Stick.

Over the years I�ve only put 2-3 people on my �Ignore� lists. You just got added to that list.

Have a nice life.

Facts ain't personal................

Only you,can prevent you...from saying something stupid.

Good luck on "Ignore" curing that!...............

Im glad I could add to your humor. Tried Varget,tried 120s,140s, tried many different seating depths. This was the best I could get her to do. Granted I could have changed and worked with many different loads but I had no need. My LVSF 7/08 shot in the .2s on occasion and in the .5s regularly with 43.5gr of Varget and 140 TSXs and anyone can shoot 1-5 groups really tight....the aggregate is where the story lies.

Notice the COAL

Improved Cylinder?

Varget and COAL noted,you have a very wicked sense of humor!

Obliged...............

Yep...went to a Full here though.

I live in 1st Gen Ti 7-08 Country,with the highest per capita concentration on the Planet.

All dazzle,though none are at sub 2.8" COAL's or suffer '414,Varget or any other brainfarts...if only for conversation...............

I'll take a sub .5" "brain fart" all day long....oh the suffering.

I can make mine shoot that big,but the temps gotta be low,I need to be soaked and the wind needs to be beyond "brisk",to lower my core temp enough to get me shaking that much.

Would love to hear speeds too,so if only to letcha REALLY ring the bell..............

In fairness,this was bone dry in the snow,MPAJ...as per usual.

Just sayin'.............

4432 FPS I believe...it was quick. Didn't have a chrono back then but I've got an eye for such things.

Bruz

Points for Imagination,as per always................

You are good. I've never figured a way to take a photo of myself while shootin. Course us Southerners are basic folk.....Don't really have the ego to support such creativeness.

Facts is facts and they is often unsettling to them that don't do much..................

I love facts...don't do as much as some but more than most and know what works for me. This Ti didn't so in some of the fancy speak I've heard round here "I tripped it" to someone who could hopefully find some use.

Bruz

Few things more satisfying,than procuring rifles that "don't shoot".

What else are you tripping?....................

Coyote Hunter, thanks for the advice and explanations. I will definitely give your method a shot.

Some of the other things I've done to the rifle is free float the barrel and replaced the trigger with a Timney trigger set at 3 lbs. I was going to replace the scope I have on there now with a Zeiss Conquest 3x9x40, but I may have to wait on that one.

But yeah, I am rather disappointed with the accuracy of this rifle when comparing it to what other people are getting on this website. Who knows, it could be the operator contributing to the problem. We will see, I will keep you posted on my results. Thanks again for your input.

Trippin a Marlin 308MX right now I bought off a friend in need....course it's blue/wood and Micky don't make a Popsicle lookin stock for it.

Robert

Sister just gets prettier every year.

I must have not done something right. My girls would have told me to get [bleep] had I offered to let them wade in an icy stream.

Was hoping the grandkids would be a bit tougher. But, so far, they are fair weather fishermen also.

Though you can not tell from this pic, as she had just awakened from a nap on from the ride home from the lake, the oldest loves to slay crappies.



And we are teaching the little ones what trout are for.



I am too ignorant to run a real camera, so I make do with my P/S Fuji S7000.

Wish I had today, what I invested in this one eight years ago. A guy could buy one heck of a DSLR.

Palerider3 �

You are welcome � hope it works for you as it has for me.

Some folks claim floating the barrel can decrease group size and that makes sense as long as the barrel/stock contact remains constant. What is does do is it eliminates POI changes due to changes in the pressure the stock puts on the barrel because of changes in temperature or humidity or whatever. While zeroing my first centerfire the POI kept moving up and to the left and I kept chasing it with adjustments. Problem turned out to be pressure at the forearm tip changed as the barrel warmed up and heated the wood, which expanded as it warmed up. Floating the barrel fixed that and I�ve floated the barrel on all my bolt guns ever since. I still get MOA or better on most with favored loads, more than adequate for my hunting needs, and I�ll continue to float the bolt guns.

Your disappointment on the Rem M700 doesn�t surprise me. I have a 1978 M700 BDL .308 Win that shoots bugholes and a 2005 M700 .30-06 that does 1-1/4� on a good day. A friend has an M700 .30-06 of the same vintage and it shoots the same as mine � disappointing but good enough for hunting. Doesn�t matter what we feed them, factory or handloads. Can happen with any manufacturer�s rifles, though.

A good trigger helps, as does good and consistent technique. Can�t help you much there as my technique isn�t going to win any competitions.

Is that a Typo? or are you coating your barrel with a new non-caloric silicon-based kitchen lubricant that creats a surface 500 times more slippery than any cooking oil?

You mean MPI...................

Weather weren't balmy today,either and I found icebergs a timber patch along the ocean.




My 1D3 was $5000 a couple years ago and now a guy can snare one for under $2K.

Not a bad Age currently,in which to be procuring DSLR bodies.................

Going back out to the range today. Will let you know how things went.

Okay so the day out at the range went good, found 2 excellent powders for the Rem 700 30-06 with 150 TTSX. Reloder 15 at 51 grains and H4895 b/t 50-51 grains (I could tell any difference in group size). The 2 powders and charges listed above gave me the "cloverleaf" (1/2 inch) and man I was stoked because I thought I had a gun that wouldn't shoot for anything. Also Ordered a Zeiss 3x9x40 scope on Friday. Looking forward to putting that on the 06.

Sounds like a winner. I sure love those barnes,wish they could do something about their .284 BC's.

My 270 Win shoots the Barnes 130gr TSX and my 7mm-08 the 140gr TSX very accurately. Guess what, both loads have the TSX bullet seated to the middle of the first groove. I've never had any luck with TSX's loaded closer to the lands. Thanks for the info.

Ever kiss one?

Imagine that...pun intended...............

Anybody got a picture of a loaded round to see where the TTSX is seated? That would be helpful. thanks.

Can't help you with the TTSX, only the TSX.

I'd like to publicly thank Safariman for this post. I tried some 85 grainers in a .243 for the first time today and had I not read it, I would have burned up a bunch more than the 9 I shot today. First group out of my Sako Forester went .46"! Same POI as my 85 hpbt Sierra load as well. Good stuff!

You are most welcome! Glad to be of a help and I keep getting surprised that this old thread keeps getting bumped up. Seems to work well most of the time. MARK

Good thread worth re-reading except for Capt. 1/2 Pint's contribution.

I am glad you think so and liked this thread. I just used this method again on a friends new to him 300WBY, and last summer on a 30/06 and a 30/06 AI for a couple of teenagers in my curch who got thier first big game rifles with money they made doing farm labor over the summer. All shot terrific right out of the gate loaded in such a manner. Saved a lot of expensive reloading supplies and time.

Good info. Hadn't seen this thread before, thanks for digging it up.
Due to mag box limitations that's where my 375 ended up with the 250 TTSX.

Have yet to find the rifle that hasn't shot TSX's well at a light kiss to .010" off...................just sayin'.

MM

Well, since you asked, quite a few actually. I have not gone through as many custom rifles as a few folks here like Dober and a couple of others, but between my own customs and loading for family and friends (usually bone stock off the shelf rifles) I have a little experience, heavily weighted towards Barnes bullets. Not only is best accuracy often not the best with the bullets loaded close or touching, (among my small sample of a few dozen) but one often cannot get quite as much velocity with the bullet loaded that close in my experience.

I will readily admit that some rifles did shoot best that way (loaded to touch or very nearly so the rifling), but for the first time out with a new to me rifle, the deep seating with a TSX or TTSX works so well, so much of the time, that I start there and often do not have to make a change.

The next ten rifles I load for might all want a close fit, but above is my experience so far with dozens of rifles.

Just my observations and experience, FWIW, but it does seem like quite a few folks in this thread had similar observable results. So, if my formerly personal little trick helped a couple of folks out and saved them time and bullet money, or perhaps finally got them to shooting the great TSX and TTSX bullets after fighting accuracy issue's... then great.

I am not personally or emotionally vested in the issue either way.

Sometimes mag constraints dictate more freebore than I prefer; barring that constraint, I simply avoid freebore where possible.

Of the variables affecting accuracy, adding freebore is not at the top of my list; haven't seen many BR shooters liking it either.

Rock on with your methodology though, per usual.

MM

Completely agree. I shoot T/TSXs on virtually every caliber I own, and seating them deep is the way to go. I've tried that "kissing the lands" routine and has not worked for me other than increased velocity (pressure).

This sounds interesting, since I need to work up a load with 100gr TTSX in my 25-06. But, if I were to seat this deep, I would be at about a 0.125" jump. Is this in the ballpark of what others are seeing? The rifle is a weatherby mark V 6 lug....

Maybe. I've seen a lot more like 'em deeper than .050 than longer.

Definately worth a try IMO and experience. A .125 jump is not counter conductive to accuracy in many cases WITH THESE PARTICULAR BULLETS. My method is not the first place to try with other pills. The jump on my last 257 Weatherby loads (other than the FN I used last year, which is getting re barreled) was .030 and the rifle shot wonderfully.

My notes bear this out as well.

OK, I'll try them seated to the middle of the first groove and see what happens. Probably be a week or two before I get the test groups shot - I'll report back when I do.

I will be looking forward to the report. Does not work for all rifles, of course, but it sure works for a lot of them. Especially if pushed hard velocity and pressure wise. Barnes and other Mono's generally shoot best at or near max.

Good Luck!

This may have already been covered but I think it is important to understand that there is a reason that Barnes recommends seating them starting at .030"jump. These are solids and do not obdurate like lead core bullets. Solids can and do create higher pressures when jammed or close to jam. I learned this the hard way when shooting the original "X" bullets. Also, they will shoot very accurately when jumped a mile so don't be afraid to jump them. My 7stw w/ 140's jump .180" and shoot .5" all day.

I've solved more than forty rifles for TSX/TTSX/X bullets now. I wish I could say I have found something useful to pass on to get one to shoot. I have a few that like them close up. I have a few that like them way back. Most of them fall in the middle, but that's a big middle when some are jammed and some are more than .130 back.

I haven't even found a way yet to tell me to move closer or further when they don't cooperate.

Really, hadn't heard that. So are you saying you found better accuracy but less velocity loading them further out? How far off the lands are you finding better results?

Thank you.

What I was saying was 1) I was finding GOOD, as in perfectly acceptable in a hunting rifle accuracy by simply loading them to the middle of the top recess groove, quite often. Generally right at or under a 1 inch group, great for big game hunting. 2) I admitted that this is an unscientific 'tip' with only anecdotal evidence i.e. a couple of dozen rifles so far that shot well this way. 3) Velocity is lessened somewhat vs jamming the bullets close to the lands as one is creating a bit of 'freebore' with the jump the bullets make and so one can often ad A LITTLE - VERY LITTLE more gunpowder to the load and get a velocity SLIGHTLY higher than when the bullets are loaded close to the grooves and lands. How far off of the lands and grooves? When this works well on the first time out, I do not take the time to measure how far back we were. We simply then add gunpowder until we get to book max or a tiny bit higher so long as we are not seeing any signs of obvious overpressure.

On a similar note, maybe in the FWIW category, I NO LONGER pride myself on beating book velocities significantly by merely adding gunpowder until the bolt lift is stiff or primers start to flatten or crater. We now know those to be, most often, signes of significant OVER pressure, not a 'safe max load for our rifles' as we once thought. I want to publicly thank John Barnsess for his great articles on the subject as well as many other good writers who have shown many of us old timers the folly of those once standard practices and ways.

Now, when I want more FPS (and I almost always do.... ) I add 1) a larger case or 2) Some Moly to the bullets or 3) a longer barrel and very often of late, ALL THREE at the same time. Thusly 100gr TTSX's from a mere 257WBY rollin along at 3800fps. (Moly'ed bullets, and a Dura Coated 28 inch bbl. So far the mule deer here have very much disliked that combination.

I think I did cover the obturation issue early on in this thread, but whether I did or not, or someone else did or not, yours is a valuable point, well stated and expelaned, and in my opinion, spot on. Kudo's sir. Everything that helps folks shoot better, faster (thusly cheaper, too) is good info to pass along IMO.

Sure am glad I found this thread, and want to say thanks Safariman, you're right on! I got a Tikka M65 30-06 last year, and one bullet I first tried in it with hopes of it being my best was the Barnes ttsx 165gr. I tried it last year with A4064, Rel17, and I believe one more powder? And I was going with the flow and seating the bullets out close to rifling, and got the same story evertime. Low velocities good groups, but speed en up they opened up, way up! I give up on and figured I wasted my money buying 2 boxes. Found this thread other day and had to try it, seated them on first groove, light crimp, 3.205" O.L.
Just tried em with 3 loads of A4064, 50, 50.5, & 51grs. All 3 shot less than 1" @ 100yds, AvgVel's= 2727fps, 2764fps, & 2768fps. And mid load was .75" and only 13fps spread.
Now I can probably load this load and really drawdown probably get 1/2" and 165g @ 2765 that accurate, is awesome load with this bullet I believe!

Glad you got what you were looking for Windknot...

but seeing you joined in May 2021, you never had the pleasure of meeting or knowing Safariman...

I knew him, and had been in the field with him varmint shooting...

Sadly he left in pretty bad disgrace... for a lot of reasons..

just haven't seen the statement " thanks Safariman" in quite a long time....

Funny to read this, and I read most.
Before Safariman got figured out, and how normal Stick was back then.

Only read a few the posts on first couple pages, decided to try it. Sure worked for me! Don't know anything about anyone referred too, or what happened.

Safariman put the dirt AND the bag into the term "Dirtbag".

If Safariman posted a thread where he wasn't lying or trying to fleece you put of your $$$ maybe a thanks would be in order.

I'll put this right here. It's near the bottom of the "Load Data" page on the Barnes Bullets website.

WHERE DO I SEAT THE TSX, TIPPED TSX AND LRX BULLETS?
When loading a Barnes TSX, Tipped TSX or LRX bullet, your rifle may prefer a bullet jump of anywhere between .050” up to .250” or more. This distance off the lands (rifling), aka “jump” may be limited to the rifles throat length, magazine length and bullet length.

When selecting the cartridge overall length (COAL) we recommend starting with a minimum “jump” of .050” off of the lands. You can test different seating depths and find a “sweet spot” that your particular firearm prefers. We suggest working in at least .025” increments as follows seating the bullet deeper to allow a further jump. Your test plan could look something like this:

1st group- .050” jump
2nd group- .075” jump
3rd group- .100” jump
4th group- .125” jump
5th group- .150“ jump
6th group- * see below

This length can be determined by using a “Stoney Point Gauge” (now the Hornady O.A.L. Gage) or other methods. You do not have to seat the bullet at, or on one of the cannelure rings. Remember there are many factors that may control or limit the seating depth for your application. You may find that you need to start at around 0.150” off the lands and are not able to get any closer due to limiting factors including proper neck tension and magazine length.

*In rifles that have long throats you may be limited on how close you are able to get the bullet to the lands. In these instances, it is not uncommon to find the best accuracy with a jump of .200” or more.

This jump may possibly stay the same regardless of powder or charge weight within a given rifle. If preferred accuracy is not obtained, we certainly recommend trying another powder, for the powder type and charge greatly affects the overall accuracy of each individual firearm.

FYI- An accurate load requires a bullet with the proper consistent case neck tension which leads to more constant pressures and velocities.

I really need to go through this thread, I just ordered a few hundred .30 cal 110gr TAC-TX bullets to load in .30 Herrett and .30-30 Contenders.

The basic challenge associated with anything that Mark posted on this site, in over 27K posts, is to recogzine truth from fiction. Mark was a notorious liar, so anything that he ever wrote has to be looked at with that in mind. A lot of people who believed in him and backed him up when he was initially called out probably had their faith shaken a little when his insurance fraud schemes were made public.

Insurance fraud?

Selling products without a proper license and then keeping the payments made by the buyers or something along those lines.

Along with selling inappropriate policies to many elderly folks to maximize his commissions rather than suiting their needs...