Reading Chuck Hawks article got me to thinking. He maintains that the rifle industry went to synthetic stocks for two reasons, 1) good walnut is getting more expensive, 2) plastic extruded stocks cost the manufacturer about 5 to 10 dollars.

I always thought that rantings against synthetic stocks was just old timers cussing progress. Now I think Chuck Hawks is totally correct. (with the exception of some of the more expensive stocks, all hail McMillian)

Most of these midrange synthetics have aluminum full length bedding rails. I am wondering how dimensionally stable they are under temperature swings. A boat builder who welded aluminum told me how difficult it is to weld a clean aluminum seam because of the creep when the aluminum changes temperature. I wonder if this puts strain on a synthetic when it is taken from a warm hunting cabin into very cold outdoor weather.

Secondly, take for instance the standard 700ADL wooden stock, it is stiff enough for using a sling and it seems to me that if sealed up, especially under the recoil pad, but-plate, and barrel channel that an almost hermetic seal can be accomplished. Then humidity changing the point of impact can be minimized if not almost eliminated altogether.

I agree that the migration away from wood, and to injection molded plastic, has everything to do with economics. And a cheap plastic handle is at least a step down from most any wood handle.

MM

Dixie
You make some good points, better than Chuck's actually... good walnut has always been relatively expensive, but like most natural resources, tastes dictate a lot of what happens and walnut is not an exception. In real terms walnut has been getting cheaper for the last 8-10 years... the reverse is what truly happened, plastic stocks got cheaper, a lot cheaper... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

That is not to say that the best walnut has not gotten much more expensive, just straight-grained walnut that dries and machines easily.

Temperature does introduce another potential accuracy problem into the equation, but no worse than wood.

As for sealing the wood, the finishes used by the manufacturers are nothing special as water sealers. Trying to get a thin enough layer under a butt pad to seal and sit nice and tight against the stock is tough business. Dings and cracks in the finsih coupled with pores built into the finish by the evaporating solvents leaves them pretty susceptible to sucking up water.
art

Sitka;
That is real interesting about the price of Walnut.

I'm just fishing here mostly, seems like firewood dries out slow from the cut end. And before pressure treated wood carpenters used to paint the ends of dimensional lumber to minimize moisture absorbtion, (ain't I right on that?)

I got a friend who finishes wood floors. Some of these new polyurathane finishes are nearly as hard as diamonds, (if I believe what he tells me)

maybe the laminate woods are the best inexpensive option.

Have you had any eyewitness experience with the wood laminates delaminating in the wet and sea coast conditions up there in Alaska?

Dixie,

Most wood is coated on the end grain to slow down the drying process. This causes the wood to cure more slowly and stay more stable, check and crack less, and warp less.

With the aluminum bedding blocks, it really isn't a fair comparison to welding aluminum boats, just because of the length of the material being used. All materials have a coefficient of expansion/contraction and measured over the length of something as long as a boat, it can be significant. However, a bedding block in a rifle that only measures about 4-5" long, the amount of actual movement will be small enough to be insignificant.
The types of materials used makes all the difference in how the stock reacts to conditions. The mainstream factory synthetic stocks are for the most part injection molded plastics with synthetic polymers added for toughness. Without the added materials, they would be way too stiff and brittle to use for stock material.
The very best stocks, McMillan, Borden, etc... are laid up individually with better materials such as hand laid fiberglass, kevlar fibers, and other exotic materials. On top of using expensive materials, the amount of hand work involved in each stock drives the costs substantially.

I believe, as Sitka does, that with proper finishing techniques a wood stock can be made to be as stable as most anything short of maybe a McMillan- and it will look good doing it. But it ain't easy.- Sheister

dixie
You are rambling here! A few points of correction; the new polyuretanes (Diamondthane for example <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />) are the hardest finishes currently made. They are tough as can be and extremely clear, but they are orders of magnitude softer than diamond. They are only mediocre as true water sealers. If they were impervious the floors would buckle like crazy due to water getting into only one side. Most of the hardest polyurethanes are water-based. Where the water leaves from it leaves a hole it can return by...

As SHeister points out the wood is end-painted to slow the drying at the ends, so the whole board will stress less from uneven drying. Though in some parts of the country the wood is sometimes end-painted to reduce water transport... wicking. That is to keep the water content low enough to prevent rot.

Firewood, any wood dries far faster through the cut end... imagine a bundle of microscopic straws held together with glue and full of water when the tree is cut. As they stand some trees are 2/3 free water. When the wood gets down to about 25-30% water cut (when compared to the weight of the wood after oven-drying) the water held in the cells of the wood starts to leave and the wood then starts to shrink.

Of course the wood does not all dry at the same rate, hence the need to slow down the ends. The biggest problem is that when wood reaches about 6% MC it takes a set and will maintain that size through incredible stresses. If the outside takea a set before the inside it stays larger than it should be and the inside of the wood then shrinks and often causes serious cracking inside the piece, invisible to the outside.

Laminates SUCK! They is ugly as a mud fence, heavy as can be, lousy to checker, expensive and did I mention ugly? Of course that is just my opinion <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> I have not seen one delaminating though. My wood stocks of a number of species including several flavors of walnut, myrtle, maples and a few others do just fine when properly finished with a base coat of two-part epoxy and a top coat of oil finish.
art

Personally I like laminated stocks. I have had too many problems with one piece walnut stocks warping, the finish peeling, etc. when I hunt in truely wet conditions. Most of my rifles have laminated stocks except the ones for extreme conditions. My last moose hunt saw me in a canoe for five days with the rifle proped up next to me ready for the next moose which might jump into view. Needless to say the rifle was stainless with a synthetic stock and was soaking wet all day every day ( but dried and oiled every night. ) This kind of abuse destroys wood stocks regardless of the finish they get. The .338 in question wore an injection-molded stock in the canoe, but wears a laminated one for all other hunting. I've never had a problem with laminated stocks. I think they look kinda cool.....but then I like harlequin ducks too. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

nimrod
I routinely subject wood stocks to Kodiak weather for far more than a few days or even weeks at a time. My stocks have been swamped in raft bottoms, soaked in rain and salt spray and the only one that has ever warped was one I bedded into a new stock at the last minute and did not seal in the barrel channel after free-floating... hardly the fault of the wood or the finish...

I said laminated stocks are ugly for a very simple reason... they ARE!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Comparing harlequins and laminates is just plain low... those little ducks neither need nor deserve that type of abuse. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

My father built a target rifle stock for my older brother of laminated walnut about 35 years ago and back then I lusted after it... I have gotten over that craving! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
best to you
art

sd:

i used to build and fly free flight flight model planes. competition was fierce. i got pretty good at it it. what does that have to do with this thread? well, when you are running 60 percent nitromethane model engine fuel in your balsa framed airplanes, youse gots to protect the plane from the fuel. that stuff could get into balsa so fast and seriously weaken it even faster if the wood was not sealed. i used two-part hobby poxy brand sealer. then applied a layer of silk or fiber-glas or nylon or even japanese tissue, depending on which part of the frame/fuselage (the firewall and area just behind got the fiber-glas for strength; you need that with 1/2 A engines running 20,000-plus rpms). then applied another coat or two of hobby poxy. this kind of sealer is what i intend to finish my boyd's walnut stock with for my model 96 based swede. what are some other name brands you could recommend, there, sd? i guess hobby poxy still makes there stuff.
thanks for the reminder on finishes. valuable thread, this.

Fish
Makes me wonder why the balsa after you go through all the gyrations of fuel-proofing it... Must be getting into the realm of other materials' capabilities???

I have used quite a few different brands, but stick to the slowest setting formulas only. Industrial Formulators out of Canada makes G-1, G-2 and Cold Cure and I have used each of them a number of times. Any of them are very good. The G-2 is a 48 hour setting glue that I use when I have a fore end tip of an oily rosewood, many of which give epoxy fits.

I have also used some West System epoxies and honestly have not found any real differences. The quick-setting epoxies lack strength when cured, tend to have less UV resistance and worst of all they lack open time. The curing starts before you are finished applying the stuff and very little gets sucked into the wood...

There are a number of epoxies designed to impregnate rotting log cabin sill logs and most of these are water based and not acceptable for stock work...
art

The temps reached in welding aluminum are far greater than any temp change a gunstock is going to encounter. In welding you are going above the temp of plasticising of aluminum. That would definitely cause some dimensional change. The 150 degrees maximum temp change a gunstock would go through would be not be anything close to causing any noticable dimensional change in an aluminum bedding block.
Properly dried and oriented, laminate stocks are pretty stable. They are heavier than Walnut alone, but are less likely to change. I think some look good and some look horrible. It's a matter of taste.
Walnut properly dried, finished and maintained can be very stable. It's the dried, finished and maintained that causes the problems. Factory stocks don't get the attention to detail they probably should, because we aren't willing to pay for it, so they leave a little to be desired in the durability category.
I've always liked the look of blue and Walnut. It is what I grew up with and nothing looks so good. I like stainless and lanminated too, but not as well. I like to take factory stocks and seal all the inside surfaces and they seem to hold up pretty well.
I had an HS Precision stock that had an aluminum bedding block in it and when I sent the rifle to Shilen for rebarrelling, he called and told me the bedding block was uneven and that is needed a couple of passes to strighten it out. I was later told that the aluminum blocks used in rifle stocks are extruded "V" blocks and used as extruded, they are not that straight. I don't know if that's true or not, but I've heard of several having to be machined to get them straight. So, I wonder how many are stright from the factory, and how much that affects people's attitudes toward aluminum in a rifle stock.

Odd,extruded aluminum is often used as straight-edges.

The coating of wood with epoxy allows the use of a wood that would normally get rejected as too soft.I used it on a showy english walnut stock that could be marked with my finger nail.

downwind
Epoxy is the best way to get away with using much western maple... Even makes checkering it possible at whatever lpi you like...
art

bchannell
Just walked by the thermostat and thought about how stable metal is and how 150F range would not change it much... then thought again of the thermostat guts and that little bi-metalic strip... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> you can do the same thing with two different woods to measure relative humidity... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
art

You're talking two completely different metals. Those bi-metal strips in the thermostat are not made of the same metal. Thermostats use metal of low heat stability properties, such as chromel, and constanton. They are also of very, very low mass. Respectfully, that cannot be compared to the aluminum alloys used in bedding blocks that have somewhere near 50 times the mass of a completely different alloy.
I'm certainly no expert, and I don't mean to be discourteous, but surely those aluminum bedding blocks are at least made of faily stable aluminum at normal atmospheric temperatures. They are purportedly not machines or cast very straight, I sure hope they're at least of the correct alloy for the intended use.

This is a real interesting thread...

I know plumbers have a chart (I think I have seen it somewhere) telling the expansion of pipe based upon temp change. I figured the aluminum in a wonder stock would creep a little, but if it is fully imbedded in "stuff" seems that just a little creep would cause tension. Just thinking out loud here. And I was thinking no so much about the heat from firing the rifle but the change of temp due to in and out of the house, cabin, etc, and of course the change of seasons. It is not inconcieveable to think a rifle would face an 80 degree sudden temperature change in the winter even as far south as Virginia.

But if the engineering chart says 80 degree change don't make it change much I believe... Any engineers out there that can put their finger on one of those charts... I ain't no engineer and have never even seen one on TV!!! heh heh

Sitka Deer; Real interesting posts, I don't know the first thing about wood in any form and your posts are real informative.

What is the next best thing to high quality walnut?

Dixie
"What is the next best thing to high quality walnut?"

Well that would be second quality walnut, by most accounts... cut down by loggers <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />! There are several different characteristics making walnut special stock wood. The few woods that really compete are some maples, myrtle, mesquite, sycamore, beech and some birches. Beech, birch and most maples flunk out on looks so get used for cheap stocks.

Sycamore flunks out on stability issues and looks, so it gets used on cheaper stocks yet. Mesquite is hard to get in big enough pieces to be commercially viable in large scale operations, which is a shame because it is the single most stable US wood suitable for gunstocks, though it is heavy for most applications.

Myrtle is gorgeous, relatively lightweight, stable in service once dried properly (the rub with myrtle) and the camphor-like smell in the shop when working myrtle is impossible to beat.

Maples cover the entire spectrum of stock uses from plain and soft to hard, heavy and gorgeous; from firewood to exhibition grade gunstocks. Eastern maples (sugar and rock) are good for heavy stocks and can be highly figured and western maple is soft, but often wildly-figured and very serviceable for very lightweight stocks that can be incredibly beautiful. The rest of the maples are utility-grade stock blanks on average, lacking character, stability and looks.

Realize that "walnut" is not a very specific term when refering to gunstocks. There are many native N.A. walnuts and the imports. Black walnut is the common plain stock wood on commercial guns, but better examples do get into the high-grade world. Claro walnut is a native Kalifornia tree and produces beautiful wood with lots of figure and color, often pink, but does not have the depth and strength needed for many applications so is not as highly regarded as the best walnuts.

English, French, circassian and several other trade names are all the same tree and it was imported to the US. The wood can be soft and drab to incredible based on the growing conditions and age of the tree, as well its genetics. Any of these can get into the incredibly expensive range. When the circassian is grown in Turkey and gets to be ancient the wood is beyond description with luster and depth that must be seen to be understood. It costs plenty...

Then there is bastogne or paradox walnuut, a mule of claro and one of the english walnuts. The wood can be as hard as the best Turkish and highly-figured, but heavy and pricey.

There are a number of other walnuts such as nogal and butternut that I have never heard of being used for stocks, but there probably has been one...

Did not intend to ramble quite so much here, likely more info than you wanted. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
art

sitka - i gotta agree with this opinion! the one exception that i have found is the company known as acra-bond. i am pretty impressed with their stuff (or, at least, how it looks!) have you got any opinions on acra-bond?

tas
Ain't nothin' wrong with the looks of an acra-bond that a mile can't cure <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Actually they look ok at a little distance, but up close I cannot like them. Obviously not everybody agrees with me...

Those lamination lines are serious give-aways on keeping your fields flat and true so far a trainer stock to build they might be a good idea.
art

downwind
"Epoxy is the best way to get away with using much western maple... Even makes checkering it possible at whatever lpi you like..."
art


Mr. Sitka Deer/ Art

What brand of epoxy again????
Where to buy? Same stuff for barrell channel as but plate end as general finish???

Have any of you used Rot Restore epoxy? I have used it for repairing thin cracks and it has worked well. It isn't water based and has about the consistency of water. Also, as far as aluminum bedding blocks go-what about galvanic reaction causing corrosion?

Dixie
I use a number of different epoxies and have no real favorites based on serviceability. The "Industrial Formulators" G-1 and G-2 are my feel-good favorites right now. G-1 is 24-hour set and the standard I use. If I am finishing or gluing on a fore end tip of really oily wood I will use the G-2. It WILL cure on any wood. It is a 48-hour cure and is just a shade stronger than G-1.

I use it for the whole thing, but realize if you are just doing a barrel channel, that leaves a water-tight, immobile face opposite a poorly sealed surface. Changes in Moisture Content of the wood will change its size. Wet environments can cause it to grow and put pressure on the barrel and drying can tweak the action.

Wood changes size differently in all three dimensions and that makes things tough to calculate in reference to how stock movement will affect the action, if at all. I use the epoxy to completely coat the entire stock, inside and out. Wood movement in my stocks has become a non-issue.

Aluminium and steel do move differently under temperature changes and that is one very good reason to avoid heat lamps to cure epoxy bedding. But even at the deepest cold one can expect to hunt in, in say the interior of Alaska on a January caribou hunt, the difference in temperature movement between an aluminum bedding plate and the steel action is ony going to be about .050". That being a WAG about temperature reached during bedding if a heat lamp is used and the final temperature of about -40F... just about as cold as a guy needs to hunt in and maintain the skinniest shred of sanity...

Sorry about the ramble, but different issues kept coming to mind.
art

Wiktor
Do not know the brand exactly, but the various similar blends rely heavily on solvents for penetration. Those solvents work their way out of the curing epoxy, driven in large part by the exothermic (giving off heat) reactions going on in curing.

Those micrpores are large enough for water molecules to run through without ducking their little hydrogen atoms. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> As a crack sealer it is fantastic stuff. As a stock finish it is generally a poor substitute for the epoxies I generally use.

As a finish, most of the "rot" blends suggest at least three coats which leads to a build up in the surface finish and a big increase in weight. That may not mean anything in a particular application, but then again, it might...

I do not think galvanic reactions will be a problem unless you have water in the equation, but the bedding will likely isolate the parts enough to prevent any real problems. Hunting around Kodiak saltwater for years, as I have, I find lots of rust, but little that really looks like galvanic corrosion on guns... A lot of aftermarket triggers use aluminium bodies and steel parts and they are connected to steel actions.
art

Sitka deer, thanks for the reply and information!

Caution: Don't use sweet gum. It will warp. miles

Miles
One of the prettiest stocks I ever built was sweet gum on a Ted Williams model 70 30-06 that would not shoot before or after I stocked it. Traded it away some years ago.

The epoxy finish sealed it well enough it never moved. I would not go out of my way to use it again, but if presented with a blank like the couple I got back then I would use it in a heartbeat and not worry in the slightest...

It can be the most subtle gorgeous wood out there, IMO... but unsealed it will run circles around anything... and I do not mean that as an endorsement! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
art

"Industrial Formulators" G-1

This entered into hotbot only brought up two results and one was for a MSDS sheet! heh heh

Where do you procure your voodoo brew? I still get the heebyjeebies about internet purchases. Is there a store I can walk into or an 800 number I can call to buy some? How much do you need to fix up a little 10/22, channel, but plate area and maybe a once over the whole thing?

Thanks neighbor!

A Google search with "epoxy" added to IF brought up a bunch of options... The last time I purchased the stuff it was Garrett Wade in NYC. I use it for bedding compound also, BTW.
art

I was sawing some sweet gum lumber today and it would try to warp by the time that I got to the end of the cut. miles

Miles
As you seem to cut a little wood, sure do not intend to step on toes or anything and gum does stain WAY FAST, but a sprinkler on the log pile the day before sure does make some woods much easier to deal with that way? Have dealt with a few real movers that way with excellent results...

That is stress within the log from partial and nonuniform drying... the real movement is yet to start! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
art

Dixie,

I bought there products after talking with SD and believe in the Epoxy Technique. Try this: www.indform.com, Order# 888.277.8050, Tech Service# 604.294.5723. I think I bought mine from a distributer in Ontario of which I can't remember. Let me dig up there addy and I'll fire it off to you. I called them on the phone, gave them a credit card and it arrived a week later.

I used a new IF product called S-1 - the verdict is still out as Art is running some water penetration tests but initial tests indicate that it doesn't seem to be as good as the G1 and G2 in the water proofing capacity.

Also the Industrial Formulators products cure with a plastic-like shine; shinier than anything I've seen before. A little 4-O steel wool cured that though. Good luck and let us know how you make out.

I have a small band saw, sawmill and the gum is green. I don't cut any logs very far ahead of time. I just mess around with it when I have some free time. I am sawing some lumber now to put a side-shed on my barn. Green gum lumber is real good for the lathing to nail metal roofing to. miles

Sorry to but in, but these guys are pretty good to deal with, and I have bought G1 through them in the past.

CAS
From memory only, those prices are good. First time I noticed a "Made in USA" tag on the product... my bottles are labled "product of Canada"?

Lee Valley is good to deal with, I agree.

BWinters point about the gloss relates to his decision to use it as the entire finish. It builds and is glossy in that application. Matting it is not difficult.

I generally use an oil finish atop the epoxy and that leaves an oil finish appearance...
art

Miles
I envy you the trees to cut... here in AK we have three choices for hardwood trees for lumber; trashy paper birch, twisty paper birch, soft, useless paper birch... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

The stuff twists and warps badly during drying and is extremely subject to collapse and checking. The reaction wood is horrible and it still ends up too soft to do anything with.

The one thing I wish we had here was an option to simply cut down a tree and eventually turn it into a stock. I like being part of the entire process and do not use duplicators or partially shaped stocks because I like starting as far back as possible in the tree...
art

Sitka, CAS, Miles, bwinters;

Thanks for the help! Very useful info on this thread. Thanks again.

I wish I could give you some of my trees. It sure would be a long haul though. I don't have anything that would make a very pretty stock that I know of. Mostly sweet gum and oak. I might have a cherry or two that is big enough. What about pecan? I would think that hickory would be too heavy. Maybe mulberry!! miles

Miles
This is an example of why good walnut costs so much... I bet it would shock you to know what really good blanks sell for these days.

Mulberry is the ticket! Nothing like brilliant yellow fluff to build a stock from. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hickory and pecan are not stable enough and too heavy. Cherry makes a very fine stock. I have a huge pile of incredible cherry blanks but have not used one in about six years...

Keep looking for the walnut growing in someone's yard...
art

I cut up a walnut for a friend last summer that came from a yard and ruined two saw blades on nails. We knew that it would probably happen and he said he would buy the blades if I would cut it for him. miles

Miles
I have an impressive series of scars from carbide bits flung from a headsaw encountering a big spike... long story, but metal in wood bothers me. I get very annoyed by lumberyards' indiscriminate use of a stapler...

There must have been a good blank or two in there??? A good feather is usually available in every tree and stumps are almost always worth the effort...

Metal detectors are cheap these days also...
art

Sitka deer- I made him a pretty good pile of boards out of it. I didn't get anything. He is a good friend that will do about anything for me. He was going to make some cabinets or something. I have a post oak log in my front yard that you can have if you will pay the shipping. It is five and a half feet across the stump and about fifteen feet to the first limb. It died and I had it cut down. I don't know anyone that has a sawmill that can handle it even if they would take one out of the yard. miles

WOW!!! That is a lot of lumber!
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />art

dang, this is an interesting thread...

Years ago , my father and a buddy of his that owned a sawmill, got into a deal with a bunch of Menonites who had a gig walnut tree they wanted sawed.
Dad's cut ( Iknow, bad!) was a billet? plank? about ten feet long, 3 feet wide, and 3 1/2" thick! He wanted this straight grained walnut for target stocks, and it made some beauties, let me tell ya. It was dead dog straight as an arrow!

I used the last one about five years ago, and the blanks were cut in 1965, I believe.
I think it was either Roy Dunlap, or Alvin Linden who said
"Any wood will do for a gunstock - as long as it's walnut!"
I know my father told me that when he was showing me the ropes, and it was one of those fellas that he quoted. Both were masters of the craft...
Catnthehat

DixieFreedom,

Try http://www.matweb.com for materials properties.
I would check the thermal coefficient on something like 6061-T6 aluminum unless you know of a specific alloy being used.
Sorry this is a little late in the thread.

Thanks for the link! I guess I was just splitting theoretical hairs really.

Anybody out there know of a chain store that might carry that G1 epoxy? My 10/22 project is coming along and I could use some yesterday! Nonetheless thanks very much for the other links. A fellow at work says that Brownells carries it too, but I have not checked yet.

Dixie
I have found little difference in the various formulas I have tried. G-2 is the only one that clearly stands out as better for use on oily woods, but the rest are really very similar...

There should be a boat shop around that can seel you some epoxy with a very slow cure. It should work just fine. I have never found a slow cure epoxy that caused any problems...
art

Well Sitka;

argggg. I think I am just going to use some true oil and hope for the best. Won't be hermetic but it ought to better than nothing.

What are your thoughts on true oil?

Tru-Oil is wonderful stuff... but it does nothing to seal the wood. Actually it is quite the opposite. Oiled wood absorbs and gives off water faster than bare wood.

If you are having that much problem I could mail you a little bit to get you through a stock... I have it on hand in a bunch of different flavors...
art

This can be placed in the "for what it's worth" bin.
A 20 degree temperature change will cause measurable dimensional change in aluminum, steel, brass, glass, water and any other material or medium. To what extent this is a problem with regards to rifle stock is hard to say. Most of the synthetics are resilient enough to tolerate quite a bit of movement by the block.
I really don't mind the laminates but do think the sealing and re-inforcement of them is just as important as any other wood product. GD.

GD
Point taken, however the important thing to remember is that the movement is minimized by the fact both substances move. The difference in their movements is the key.

Aluminum moves more than steel, but the differences between them in terms of a rifle action and say an aluminum bedding block is so slight as to become meaningless.

As to sealing laminates, it probably does help, but the glues holding the laminates together are waterproof, so laminations are isolated. Also, the pressure they use to press the laminations together (vacuum press, I believe) forces a lot of glue into the wood.
art

While the glues used on the laminates are just fine the wood often is not. When these split, it isn't on the glue joint but is where the low grade birch veneer gives out. With the laminates I think it is quite important to provide some sort of re-enforcement against splitting. This can be crossbolts or dowels or concealed screws but something should be used.
Im speaking here of the Rutland plywood laminates. I don't think the walnut acrabonds have the same sort of problems. GD

GD
I am unaware of any splitting problems with the laminates, but can see where that could be a possibility. I find them all a little hard to look at... But that is just me...
art

Well...

My 10/22 project is moving along. I have not yet found decent epoxy. I did drive a half hour south of here to "big-city" Frederick MD and the hobby shop guru talked me out of the specific brand they had- said it would be hard to apply like a paint and that it would cure yellow. It was called "Slow-Cure"

In any case, since I is busier than a paper hanger with the hives, and a bit impatient, I just went and bought the Birchwood-Casey sealer.

I also bought some loctite brand goop for screws etc, the type that comes apart, WOW! 8 bucks for a micro tube! OUCH.

Then later I got twice as much "Devcon-Thread-Locker" blue goop for about 2 bucks. Gonna give it a try. I know that loctite is legend, and we use it in the power plants from time to time, but maybe that Devcon will work. Worth a try anyhow.

Sitka deer, I went down to a pile of cross ties that I have today and there was a walnut log about 12-14 inches at the butt end that I had forgot about. It has been laying there for probably four or five years. I took it over to the saw mill and now have a cant 3 1/2 x 6 x 10 ft. The butt is good on all sides for about 4-4 1/2 feet. What should I do now. I don't know what a stock blank should be sized at. I think that maybe I could get two out of the butt and maybe another from the top. If you are still making stocks I would give it to you. I am not going to make a stock any way soon. miles

Miles
I much appreciate the sincere offer, but I am admittedly picky about the wood I use to build stocks. Not to say there is not a serviceable blank or two there, but let me give a quick stock blank tutorial... as this is about dimensional stability it may be a good place to put it...

The center of the tree and even the whole tree in the case of leaning trees is called "reaction wood" and it is different. the fibers are shorter and there are some other cellular differences.

It is weaker and far more prone to problems with internal stresses. There is an interesting bit of trivia that angiosperms (hardwoods to most folks) produce excess reaction wood on the bottom side of affected areas and gymnosperms apply it to the top side. An analogy could be made that hardwoods push up limbs and softwoods pull them up.

This reaction wood in limbs is why limb wood is good for firewood... not blanks...

A quarter-sawn blank is more stable than a board-sawn blank because there is a critical characteristic in wood that causes it to change size in three different directions differently with moisture content changes.

It moves little in length, about 12% in tangential (board-sawn)and about half that in the radial (quarter-sawn) direction. These numbers are for walnut being dried from about 25% moisture content to dry at 6%.

If you think about that you will realize that a board sawn off angle (neither board nor quarter-sawn, just different) will try to do some strange moves if the moisture content changes.

Different woods move differently in relation to moisture changes after drying ("stability in service") and that feature can make a seemingly good wood species a poor choice.

Some species are so stable the difference is nearly moot in their changes. For example mesquite is the most stable wood commonly used for stocks. The difference between radial and tangential shrinkage is almost non-existant at just over 6% in each direction.

The thng that I find shocking of late is the number of Turkish circassian blanks I am seeing that are in no way perfect blanks being sold at exhibition grade, PLUS prices. Extreme runout through the wrist and all sorts of true defects and the blanks are selling for over two grand! For two-piecers!

I saw a blank a while back with 45% grain sideways through the wrist and it sold for $2,800 just because it was heavily marbled with black. The stockmaker inletted a cylinder of straight-grained english around the stock bolt to use it. It might not break. But $2,800?

Anyway, back to the point about small trees... Smaller trees produce less stable wood than older, simply because the wood is older and less affected by wind and other stresses.

Another interesting bit of trivia before I wind up this little ramble <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> is that fiddleback wood is stronger and usually more stable than straight-grained wood of the same species.
art

Sitka Deer

I just bought a used BDL stock to chunk my reminton 308 into. Currently it is a factory ADL synthetic with the cheap plastic stock that I hate.

I called brownells and a fellow suggested using acraglass gell with the black dye in it to finish the stock, (I was asking him about epoxy paints) He said it would fill up the checkering if that is what I wanted, and yes that sounded good to me.

I always hated BDL stocks but picked it up for 50 bucks cuz I thought it was cheap and right now available. Now I need bottom metal etc...

point being Mr Epoxy Guru! Where is the epoxy paint when you need it? Looking for Khaki.

Are you man enough to answer this one???? arggg heh heh heh well prove it pal!!!! ha hah hah hhah

quite frankly I is a bit frustrated in my search and I have tried all the local paint experts from car paint wholesalers to the local paint store

Only thing close is a epoxy paint tub repair kit from Sherwin Williams, 28 dollars, two part mix, stark white for tubs. yuck!

To start, I know next to nothing about epoxy paint... It is not nearly as waterproof as epoxy due to the solvents used to make it thin enough to spray and allow it to form a film.

What I do know is that acraglass gel would be about my last choice for a stock finish. I also know that painting epoxy over the finished wood is a good way to ensure premature failure of your epoxy.

I would be asking Rick Bin what he uses on his stocks and thinking of that as the correct paint. If you ask him nice he might even spray it for you with a few dead presidents for bait...
art

Why premature failure?

http://www.pyacht.net/cgi-local/SoftCart.exe/online-store/scstore/h-awlgrip.htm?E+scstore

Awl Grip

Marine epoxy paint. I think I have found what I been looking for. They used it out in the South Pacific where I used to work. Rust out there has to be seen to be believed as to how bad it is.

Dixie,

Regardless of what you use, putting it on over a finished stock is going to cause problems, or "premature failure" as SD terms it. The reason is, if the epoxy isn't bonded into the bare wood, it needs a mechanical lock with the finish it is to be applied to. This usually requires a coarse sanding job so the underlying substrate presents some "tooth" for the epoxy finish to adhere and lock onto.
It may work, if you can get the existing finish sanded down to wood, but there is a very good chance that it will "slip" and eventually pull away from the existing finish, leaving voids and a really ugly appearance between the two incompatible finishes.
As with all finishes, preparation is the key to a good finish.
BTW, I believe you can order the G1 finishes SD uses from Garret Wade or Brownell's. - Bob

Sitka Deer:

Even though almost a year ago I remembered your post here the other day:

"I routinely subject wood stocks to Kodiak weather for far more than a few days or even weeks at a time. My stocks have been swamped in raft bottoms, soaked in rain and salt spray and the only one that has ever warped was one I bedded into a new stock at the last minute and did not seal in the barrel channel after free-floating... hardly the fault of the wood or the finish... "

I learned more good stuff on this thread than almost any other.

I just cant argue with the AL bedding block with the way guns put in those stocks will shoot in all types of conditions...and speaking of laminates I like them..our #1 .45-70 Tropical has gone through hell and highwater...(literally with the highwater part, I took a swim with it in the creek at 40F...bad luck.) has not turned a touch. I have shot alot of pigs with it in the pouring rain.