No, not your typical which is better thread. Well, maybe it is.
I am looking at purchasing a new to me Remington 7600 and have found an identical pair, a 270 and a 06. Both comparable condition both the same price. Whichever one I get will be made into a carbine (18.5 to 19 inch barrel). I have been told that the 30-06 performs better out of a shorter barrel and that the 270 "needs" a longer barrel. I don't know if this is true or not and not sure why a 270 would "need" a longer tube. I'm talking ranges up to 100 yards and 95% of the time it will be used on white-tail deer.
Which would you get or is it 6 of one and half dozen of another.
I'd do the 30-06. Larry Benoit would agree
6 of one and half dozen of another.
Ingwe
I'd leave it at 22" and run the '06. I don't think that cutting it down will really do much anyway. I've hunted in the brush for years with one. I really like .30 cal 165gr bullets which is why I'd buy the '06 given the choice.
CLB
The larger bore diameter of the 30-06 over the 270 allows it a greater expansion ratio. In this situation with your desire for a short barrel the obvious choice, in theory, is the 06. In reality up to 100 yds it won't matter much.
Expansion ratio Down the road you may get a moose permit and the 06 is a little better for them as well.
Back in the 50's all you heard around the northeast was the 30-06. We got free ammo from the DCM, there were plenty of inexpensive 06's back from the war. I could borrow any free Springfield or Garand from the club all I wanted. Everyone shot the 06 in the big bore matches.
It made zero sense to get a 270 then. I never took to the 270. It made no sense.
6 of one and half dozen of another.
Ingwe
Bingo, any diff tween the two is really a bunch of ballistic gack...
Or you could, rebore one to 338/06.
Dober
I like the 30-06 better because if you don't have the right bullets .270 will fit too but if you have the .270 and try to put in a 30-06 bullet it will usually get stuck in the neck part of the chamber.
That is ok if you have a CFR rifle because the extractor tooth will already be attached to the rim so you can pull it back out. This lets you get a running start to fit it past the tight part of the chamber or if you are still at the store you could also exchange it for the right kind of bullet.
PS. I think this is why most people prefer CFR rifles for dangerous game.
30-06 with a 165 gr accubond very tough to beat.
So is a 270 with a 140 AB, 150 Pt, 160 Pt and so on...
IMO unless you're like Phil S and use the 06 from time to time with a 220 Noz for protection then real world there isn't any diff tween the two!
Dober
I like both, choose the one you like best. With a good load, the game won't know the difference.
I like the 30-06 better because if you don't have the right bullets .270 will fit too but if you have the .270 and try to put in a 30-06 bullet it will usually get stuck in the neck part of the chamber.
That is ok if you have a CFR rifle because the extractor tooth will already be attached to the rim so you can pull it back out. This lets you get a running start to fit it past the tight part of the chamber or if you are still at the store you could also exchange it for the right kind of bullet.
PS. I think this is why most people prefer CFR rifles for dangerous game.
WTF?
I like the 30-06 better because if you don't have the right bullets .270 will fit too but if you have the .270 and try to put in a 30-06 bullet it will usually get stuck in the neck part of the chamber.
That is ok if you have a CFR rifle because the extractor tooth will already be attached to the rim so you can pull it back out. This lets you get a running start to fit it past the tight part of the chamber or if you are still at the store you could also exchange it for the right kind of bullet.
PS. I think this is why most people prefer CFR rifles for dangerous game.
Does your daddy know you are playing with his rifles?
Some scary chit you are talking about!! if you can't tell the difference between your cartridges, please put the rifles down!!
CLB
Why do you want to cut the barrel at all if performance is a consideration?
Shooting whitetails at 100 yards, you could cut either one all the way down to a legal minimum of 16" and it wouldn't matter one bit killistically.
I really wouldn't worry about loss of performance with either one, and it will shift the balance rearward a bit - but I've always wondered why folks need an 18" rifle for mostly stationary targets when a 26" shotgun is considered "fast handling and good for heavy cover" on fast flying birds.
One thing to think about is that I know the muzzle blast from an 18.5" .30-06 is going to be really nasty - every single time you shoot it. Haven't shot a short .270 but strongly suspect the same would be true.
Thank you all for the replies
I didn't want this turned into a "which is better" thread. My question should really have centered around why a 270 needs a longer barrel to perform better. There seems to be a general preception that the 06 is pretty good in a shorter barrel while the 270 is not. I don't understand why and don't know if it is a wives tale.
At 100 yards or less, the performance of either is of little concern to me.
I like the 30-06 better because if you don't have the right bullets .270 will fit too but if you have the .270 and try to put in a 30-06 bullet it will usually get stuck in the neck part of the chamber.
That is ok if you have a CFR rifle because the extractor tooth will already be attached to the rim so you can pull it back out. This lets you get a running start to fit it past the tight part of the chamber or if you are still at the store you could also exchange it for the right kind of bullet.
PS. I think this is why most people prefer CFR rifles for dangerous game.
I think people missed the humor in your post...
I didn't miss it. It was funny as hell but an expression will go a long ways.
Yep, missed it totally...especially with all those smileys we can use so as to not be construed as a....well, never mind.
I had a Model 760 .30/06 with an 18.5" barrel and sold it. I now hunt in Maine and Pennsylvania with a Model 7600 .280 with a 22" barrel and don't see it as a handicap at all. I also use a pre-64 Model 70 .30/06 with a 24" barrel and don't view it as a handicap either.
No, a 270 doesn't
need a longer barrel=--unlike many of the other 65k psi cartridges. A 22 inch barrel with 150 grainers will net you 2850-2900fps with a 270--and that's just perfect for hair-burning range to reaching waaaay out there (in my semi-humble opinion
)
Of course, a 30-06 is great too.
Bottom line: Don't let the 22 inch barrel make your decision--find other reasons.......
Casey
Not long ago, I traded for a 760 in '06 for close cover hunting, particularly elk. I envision using 220 gr. NP's or even (gasp !) Hornady's.
But, for deer, I'd think it might boil down to which one would tickle your fancy. A .270, with a good, round nose, 150 gr. bullet would work well, I'm sure. With a little less recoil, BTW.
I would try it out in the original barrel lenth. Close cover hunting requires fast, accurate rifle handling. Something I've found good balance helps.
Oh, one of the Benoits uses a .270 in a 760. E
...My question should really have centered around why a 270 needs a longer barrel to perform better. There seems to be a general preception that the 06 is pretty good in a shorter barrel while the 270 is not. I don't understand why and don't know if it is a wives tale...
It is not an old wives tale but in reality the differences between tehse two rounds of similar capacity aren't all that great.
As Savage99 mentioned, the answer lies in the expansion ratio of the two different chamberings. Expansion ratio = (Case volume + bore volume) / case volume.
See the link in Savage99's post and/or google "expansion ratio rifle" - others can explain it better than I. One link leads to a discussion on Shootersforum.com where Rocky Raab posted a good explanation (and from whom I directly borrowed the equation above
).
The larger the bore cross section the more room for powder expansion there is with every inch of barrel length. Cartridges with large bore areas compared to case voume (like a .358 Winchester for example) do not lose as much velocity per inch of barrel loss as those with a smaller bore area to case volume ratio. At least that's the numbers and theory. Someone could probably throw in a lot of quibbles about different powders and relative quickness, bullet weights, designs and stuff to really get the water muddy.
Again, though, with similar case capacities and only a slight difference in bore sizes the .270 and .30-06 aren't all that far apart.
I'd like to know who has the perception that a .270 needs a longer barrel. Both cartridges hold about the same amount of powder od equal burn rates.. ie. A Std load for a.270 is 60 gr of 4831 and a 130 gr bullet. A god loads for .06 is 60 grs of 4831 witha a 150-165 gr bullets. I sure have never heard that.
I would chose the .06 because the .270 shines in distance shooting but sure tears a lot of meat up at 100yds or less and the .06 shines with a heavier bullet like the 220 gr which tends to tear up less meat at closer ranges. The.06 has a much broader base of bullet weights to chose from.
JDK:I hunt your country when I get a chance(have for years) and I'm gonna run against the grain here.....I'd get the 270,chop the SOB to 20" and have at it..
..this is not because it would be better than the 30/06,but just because the 270 is "lucky" for me and smacks the crap outta Maine bucks at woods distances
and I killed my biggest Maine buck with a 270 and after all luck counts more than ballistics when it comes to Maine whitetails
As to vels in 20" 270's I had a Ruger Ultralight about 10 years ago,20" tube,and I fed it 60-RL22 and a 130 Partition; it did 3060 on the chronograph from that barrel.
30-06 for sure. No girly man rifles (270) for me. Heck in Canada, even my wife and daughter shoot '06s. Man up!
JDK: Take the 270 Winchester!
To many reasons to list here and now but for Deer at the ranges you mention the 270 over the years will be more succesful and pleasing to you.
Best of luck with whichever you choose.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
30-06 and pumps go together like peanut butter and jelly. Get the 06.
It's been awhile since I read Towsley's book on the Benoits but I believe they cut most of their tubes to 19-in.? And a later books says several of them are now using scopes.
Got a 760 Gamemaster that I've had for several years meaning to "Benoit"...but my middle aged eyes ain't that great anymore. Maybe a Leupold 1-4 would work better?
ColdCase:Some of the Benoit boys are shooting 270 today....
And some of them have gone to scopes now as well..
Dober
Yep - last I read, at least 2 of the Benoit brothers shoot .270s. Some use scopes now and Hornady ammo (vs peep & Rem core-lokt like the old days) according to Bryce Towsley's book on them.
Maybe it is just me, but when I think of pump action rifles I think of short action cartridges like the .308 Win.
Going with whatever you get the best deal on is just fine.
Yepper it's just you...
Never quite seen the reasoning to stick a short action round in a rig that will handle longer rounds. Unless you do it in a 35 Rem and that's just cause it's cool!
Dober
Yepper it's just you...
Never quite seen the reasoning to stick a short action round in a rig that will handle longer rounds. Unless you do it in a 35 Rem and that's just cause it's cool!
Dober
35 in a 760 is way cool! The 06 will be found in 9 out of 10 pumps here, my brother is odd his is a 270.
It doesn't matter. When you can go to Numrich and buy a new barrel for under $120 you can have BOTH!
Bigger holes let the air out of 'em faster.
I would chose the .06 because the .270 shines in distance shooting but sure tears a lot of meat up at 100yds or less and the .06 shines with a heavier bullet like the 220 gr which tends to tear up less meat at closer ranges.
C'mon ss, the 270 doesn't tear up more meat, heck, it doesn't tear up meat period. You should know that.......
I
would choose the 150gr over the 130gr though--even for deer.
And if I was to chop a 270 barrel down to 20 inches or less, I would forget speed and go with a 160gr Partition. It would be a slightly scaled down version of the 06 with a 200 grainer, or a 280 with the 175 grainer.
I'd love to find a M700 early production "carbine" in 270 and give the 160 Pt a whirl on elk.
Casey
That's right Casey a 160 in a .270 is right there with a 175 in a 280 or a 200 in an 06!
Dober
In the last couple of Benoit videos, the boys are using 22 inch barrels as well. Lanny shoots 270 Win, Shane shoots 270 Win, as does Landon.
I like .270. If its good enough for Cactus Jack then...
Yepper it's just you...
Never quite seen the reasoning to stick a short action round in a rig that will handle longer rounds. Unless you do it in a 35 Rem and that's just cause it's cool!
Dober
It can give a reloader the ability to seat their chosen bullet out to an OAL that can match a factory chamber mo' better.
As long as the magazine will cooperate!
Never quite seen the reasoning to stick a short action round in a rig that will handle longer rounds.
Agreed . . . unless it has a really short barrel.
The 308 was designed for carbines.
The 7600 is a kicking fool as from the factory in 30 06. I'd go with the lighter recoiler just for that reason and add a good pad to boot.
Blindfolded noone can tell a .270 from a .30-06 as far as recoil is concerned. In fact with the same weight bullet the recoil is the same.
Unlike some who have theorized here on what the .270 will do in a short barrel, I have actually tested .270's with short barrels--and a lot of other cartridges.
There is no rule for any of them. I have seen moderate rounds like the 7x57 lose 60 fps per inch of barrel lopped off, and I have seen rounds like the .300 Winchester Magnum lose only 15 fps per inch. It depends more on the specific load than the cartridge, because often the same rifle will lose 20 fps per inch with one load and 50 fps per inch with another.
About the only real pattern that has appeared in these tests is that the combination that loses the LEAST velocity in shorter barrels is heavier bullets with slower-burning powders. This is backwards from a lot of theorizing, but that's what happens when short-barreled rifles are actually shot.
A short-barreled .270 will kill deer just fine at 100 yards, or even 400 yards.
But not as good as a 280...............grin
Another vote for the '06. Leave it at 22" for better balance. And with the size of the deer, as well as the occassional moose, the '06 just makes more sense, especially at 100yds. And there's no flies on it for 3-400yd shooting, either.
I've yet to ever run a round thru a 7600 but none of the 760's I've ever shot were any too caustic in an 06. Course I may be too weathered from other big guns to know the diff anymo...
Dober
I've yet to ever run a round thru a 7600 but none of the 760's I've ever shot were any too caustic in an 06. Course I may be too weathered from other big guns to know the diff anymo...
Dober
It's not a matter of how much a a man you or I are. Just a matter of a nothing great stock design with no recoil pad at all. My CDL 270 is a pure pussy cat with any loads compared to my 7600 with moderate loaded 150's.
I have no issue banging as many rounds as I want through the 7600 but if shooting it along side my CDL 270 or Win 70 300 WSM in a Mcmillan there is a WOW, this 7600 hits hard in comparison realization.
Of course being chambered in a 270 won't change that much while a good recoil pad would. Just pointing out a reality.
I hunt the thick coastal swamplands of NC and the hills and hollows of WV with a Remington 760 in 30-06. It has a 22" bbl and I've never felt handicapped with it. If it was me I'd leave it at 22" at least for a season or two and then decide if I wanted it chopped. I really like mine and like I said it's in 30-06 but I would be just as happy if it was a 270, 280, 308, or whatever.
30-06 would be my choice but I would not chop the barrel, you loose velocity and possibly accuracy if the barrel is not crowned properly.
Dino
The 7600 is a kicking fool as from the factory in 30 06.
+1
JDK-
I'm not what part of the state you are in, but I'll let you fire off a few rounds from a 7600 .30-06 Carbine (18.5" barrel) that I have so you can see how jumpy they are. I'm not sure it would help your decision or not.
The 7600 is a kicking fool as from the factory in 30 06.
+1
JDK-
I'm not what part of the state you are in, but I'll let you fire off a few rounds from a 7600 .30-06 Carbine (18.5" barrel) that I have so you can see how jumpy they are. I'm not sure it would help your decision or not.
I'm not a fan of the carbine either. But one thing that needs fixin right out of the box is that plastic but plate!
CLB
The 7600 is a kicking fool as from the factory in 30 06.
JDK-
I'm not what part of the state you are in, but I'll let you fire off a few rounds from a 7600 .30-06 Carbine (18.5" barrel) that I have so you can see how jumpy they are. I'm not sure it would help your decision or not.
Thank you.
I'm in Caribou.
JDK: Nice up there....used to hunt Monticello;Harvey's Siding and Mountain #9......how did you do this year?
Does anyone ever kill bucks on those big potato fields? Never sat them but often wondered......
FVA-I never questioned how much of a man you are.
I was merely saying that I may be a bit too punchy from too many years of 340's/375 Wby's, 416's and such....was poking fun at me and not you!
Plus after working those rounds something like a 06 is a pure p-cat.
I do agree though that certain stock designs all fit us differently and one rifle in say an 06 and another rifle in an 06 may just feel very different when we drop the hammer.
Case in point, I had a Red Label 12 that pounded me to no end, never had a 12 of any other kind feel even remotely like it..
Make it a good day!
Dober
JDK: Nice up there....used to hunt Monticello;Harvey's Siding and Mountain #9......how did you do this year?
Does anyone ever kill bucks on those big potato fields? Never sat them but often wondered......
Bob
Northern Maine's deer herd should be on the Endangered Species list. The biologists estimate that deer densities are less the 0.5 deer per square mile now and less than 150 deer were tagged in all of Aroostook County in 2009 (Archery, rifle, and ML season or about 9 1/2 weeks) As you know it is the size of Connecticut and Rhode Island combined. It is as bad as I have ever seen it.
I hunted 17 days and saw 2 does and a spike. I did not have the heart to shoot him. The only areas where there are at least some deer is in the agricultural areas in eastern Aroostook.
30-06 would be my choice but I would not chop the barrel
Dino
Same here. Of course, if you still can't make up your mind, just flip a coin and proceed forward with your new hunting rifle.
About the only real pattern that has appeared in these tests is that the combination that loses the LEAST velocity in shorter barrels is heavier bullets with slower-burning powders. This is backwards from a lot of theorizing, but that's what happens when short-barreled rifles are actually shot.
Heavier bullets IME produce a better more uniform powder burn. Less drama than with the light wieghts
I get you weren't questionong 'manhood". My point was that as far as 30 06's go the 7600 hits hard due to it's moderate weight, not so friendly stock design, and lack of a recoil pad. Have a good day yourself.
Best thing to do with a 7600 is to put a decent pad on it.
The 7600 is a kicking fool as from the factory in 30 06.
JDK-
I'm not what part of the state you are in, but I'll let you fire off a few rounds from a 7600 .30-06 Carbine (18.5" barrel) that I have so you can see how jumpy they are. I'm not sure it would help your decision or not.
Thank you.
I'm in Caribou.
I'm about 5 hours south of you, so I'm not sure you will be passing by anytime soon. If you make it down to York county, swing on by.
I have hunted the Allagash before. Nice country up there in 'The County'.
Heavier bullets IME produce a better more uniform powder burn. Less drama than with the light wieghts
Man,I must be a drama queen then
dave
Yepper it's just you...
Never quite seen the reasoning to stick a short action round in a rig that will handle longer rounds. Unless you do it in a 35 Rem and that's just cause it's cool!
Dober
My dad ran a 35 Rem in a model 14 with a 2x Lyman Alaskan for 25 +years.It was up close and personal and very very fast.When I was 10 years old I watched him dump two does just about as fast as you could work the action.Both DRTs.
To this day I stand in awe of some of the shooting I saw him do.
He always used to tell me that,"you have to work the action like your going to tear it in two."
In later years I bought him an up dated slide master in 308 carbine.He liked it right up untill the time the clip fell out and he needed a second shot.He never used it again.....
dave
JDK: Sounds pretty grim up there......when I hunted it,I would guess the check station in Monticello alone did that many animals.......F&G better do something....likely too many coyotes and too many cedar swamps getting cut......
Also, double the moose harvest.....
Flip a coin...........you can't lose either way.
My slight preference, though, would be the 270 caused I've used it so successfully for so long..........no real down side & the new bullets have just made it better, though Partitions are never a poor choice in either caliber.
MM
See a deer shot with a 270. See a deer shot with a 30/06. Without seeing the recovered bullet can you tell them apart? I can't. There isn't enough difference in field performance to trade one rifle for the other.
If in your 270 you shoot 130 or 140 grain bullets then the felt recoil is less than a 30/06 using a 150 or heavier grain bullet, all things being equal.