Are laminated wood stocks truly impervious to wet conditions therein' making them a viable choice for a harsh weather firearm?
I think they can be if properly finished. You need bedding blocks or some type of synthetic bedding compound to help with stability.
The big problem with laminated stocks is their weight. Two to three pounds heavier than a comparable synthetic stock.
The big problem with laminated stocks is their weight. Two to three pounds heavier than a comparable synthetic stock.
I like the extra weight in that it improves the shootability. Not so much the carry-ability, but then how much time do we really carry vs sit and wait.
I believe they ARE a harsh weather firearm, if properly bedded with a stainless barreled action.
I believe they ARE a harsh weather firearm, if properly bedded with a stainless barreled action.
Originally Posted by Dawn2Dusk
Are laminated wood stocks truly impervious to wet conditions therein' making them a viable choice for a harsh weather firearm?
I've only owned one....it warped on me!
That said.....if it's correctly finished it's probably better than non laminated wood.
If one is truly concerned about warpage....look to McMillan.
After dozens of layers of Tru-Oil - mine doesn't warp. I wouldn`t call it "impervious" though.
I wouldn't buy another one though - too heavy. Good synthetic stocks are a far better proposition in my opinion.
Here's one I did finish.
![[Linked Image]](http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b357/BCBrian/IMG_1660.jpg)
![[Linked Image]](http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b357/BCBrian/IMG_1661.jpg)
I wouldn't buy another one though - too heavy. Good synthetic stocks are a far better proposition in my opinion.
Here's one I did finish.
Originally Posted by Dawn2Dusk
Are laminated wood stocks truly impervious to wet conditions therein' making them a viable choice for a harsh weather firearm?
No. They are no better than a good piece of walnut IMO. GD
I have several, all I buy for varmint rifles these days. Most are made on Rutland Plywood Corporation's blanks, including factory stocks from Savage, Ruger and Remington among others. I purchase semi-finished blanks for pillar / glass bedding.
These stocks are so impregnated with the laminating adhesive that they absorb sealer rather poorly. When viewed with magnification the glue can be seen penetrating into the wood grain quite some distance. I use a mixture of turpentine and spar varnish or urethane as a sealer, keeping the wood wet until it absorbs as much as it can. Once properly sealed and coated with a urethane finish they are as impregnable to moisture as possible. Remember, boats have been made from marine plywood for years, with a lot more exposure than a gun stock. Then boats have also been made with fiberglass. Weight is the main concern, laminates being heavier. The laminate stock seems to be less flexible than a synthetic stock, generally dampening recoil and vibration more than laminates, but this may be a perception due to the greater weight.
These stocks are so impregnated with the laminating adhesive that they absorb sealer rather poorly. When viewed with magnification the glue can be seen penetrating into the wood grain quite some distance. I use a mixture of turpentine and spar varnish or urethane as a sealer, keeping the wood wet until it absorbs as much as it can. Once properly sealed and coated with a urethane finish they are as impregnable to moisture as possible. Remember, boats have been made from marine plywood for years, with a lot more exposure than a gun stock. Then boats have also been made with fiberglass. Weight is the main concern, laminates being heavier. The laminate stock seems to be less flexible than a synthetic stock, generally dampening recoil and vibration more than laminates, but this may be a perception due to the greater weight.
As to the bit about the laminates being heavy, they can be lightened. I just had a 7 RUM LSS Rem stock worked over. The rear was drilled out and the barrel channel was milled. Didn't drill out the grip area. It now weighs 2.2 lbs with bedding and decelerator pad. That is very similar to many McMillan stock weights.
Originally Posted by greydog
They are no better than a good piece of walnut IMO. GD
Perhaps you could define what is involved to arrive at a good piece of walnut. I have a feeling we are talking about something that involves a considerable amount of time and money compared to a laminate blank from Rutland.
I think jeffo has a laminated rifle,he said laminates used for hunting in western oregon's damp rainy weather were not that good.
After hunting in wet conditions for a couple of days the rifle was shot and was 8-10" off zero ,then as the stock dried out it slowly returned to zero.
Wood and laminated wood rifles have noticeably changed zero compared to composites [hs precision].
After hunting in wet conditions for a couple of days the rifle was shot and was 8-10" off zero ,then as the stock dried out it slowly returned to zero.
Wood and laminated wood rifles have noticeably changed zero compared to composites [hs precision].
Do you think a "good piece of walnut" would have faired any better than a laminate. Not saying a laminate is as good as a McMillan stock, but I believe it is at least somewhere in the middle of walnut and a good synthetic. I wonder how Jeff's stock was bedded meaning was it properly floated or not at all.
A good piece of walnut will be straight grained and well cured. It will be sealed as well as possible, inside and out.
The rutland wood is fairly resistant to warpage but will swell if it gets wet. In addition, the wood used isn't usually from the finest trees in the forest and, as a consequence the laminations will split. This is different than delamination which is a failure of the glue. I don't see much of this.
I use a lot of laminated stocks and like them (I like the colors available. In this respect I may be a bit of a magpie. My favorite is the electric blue!)but if I want stability in wet conditions, I would go synthetic.
On my own rifles with wood stocks, whether laminated or plain walnut, the receiver area contains very little wood since most has been replaced with fibreglass and resin. GD
The rutland wood is fairly resistant to warpage but will swell if it gets wet. In addition, the wood used isn't usually from the finest trees in the forest and, as a consequence the laminations will split. This is different than delamination which is a failure of the glue. I don't see much of this.
I use a lot of laminated stocks and like them (I like the colors available. In this respect I may be a bit of a magpie. My favorite is the electric blue!)but if I want stability in wet conditions, I would go synthetic.
On my own rifles with wood stocks, whether laminated or plain walnut, the receiver area contains very little wood since most has been replaced with fibreglass and resin. GD
A good laminate is most definitely between walnut and a quality composite. I've had a few now and after hunting with them in all conditions they hold perfectly.
CLB
CLB
Originally Posted by Azshooter
As to the bit about the laminates being heavy, they can be lightened. I just had a 7 RUM LSS Rem stock worked over. The rear was drilled out and the barrel channel was milled. Didn't drill out the grip area. It now weighs 2.2 lbs with bedding and decelerator pad. That is very similar to many McMillan stock weights.
That's exactly what I did to the Boyds on my 375CT, but shortened the forend as well. Got is down to just a tad over 2.25lbs.
.
IMHO laminates are not impervious (I own two laminated stocked rifles) but I like them for cold weather as they seem to feel not as cold as a plastic stocked rig. If you want one of the best bad weather rifle/stock combos get a stainless Ruger MKII with a boat paddle stock. The boat paddle stocks are as tough as woodpecker lips and the stainless MKIIs are about as rust resistant as a factory rifle gets. I've got a stainless MKII .243 with the boat paddle stock and while ugly it is reliable and tough.
I use plywood for varoius projects, like box making, etc.... 
I have a .280AI in a laminated Remington Mt. rifle stock. I really like the shape and feel of this stock, and I've made my peace with the plywood look. Accually, with a SS barrel and action it's kinda cool looking.
My thoughts on laminated stocks. Yes they can be lighter, but at 2.25 lbs they are still heavy. A good synthetic can be as light as 1 lb. and getting to 1.75 is not hard at all.
The wood can delaminate and cause problems.
No matter how well you seal a wood stock there is always moisture trapped inside. Most wood used in gunstocks has a moisture content between 5%-15% with around 10% being average. Remove too much moisture during the drying process and the wood becomes brittle and will break easily.
Even if you could somehow completely seal the stock as barometric pressure, and temperature change the moisture trapped inside will expand and contract. Because of the thin layers glued together the laminated wood will be more stable than solid wood, but is still not perfect.
I have rifles with walnut, laminated, cheap plastic, as well as quality fiberglass stocks. They all work and have their place, but the quality synthetic stocks are probably the most stable and dependable.
The wood can delaminate and cause problems.
No matter how well you seal a wood stock there is always moisture trapped inside. Most wood used in gunstocks has a moisture content between 5%-15% with around 10% being average. Remove too much moisture during the drying process and the wood becomes brittle and will break easily.
Even if you could somehow completely seal the stock as barometric pressure, and temperature change the moisture trapped inside will expand and contract. Because of the thin layers glued together the laminated wood will be more stable than solid wood, but is still not perfect.
I have rifles with walnut, laminated, cheap plastic, as well as quality fiberglass stocks. They all work and have their place, but the quality synthetic stocks are probably the most stable and dependable.
For the same reason you stated is the main reason I like this number from the Remington CS. One of the gunwriters stated that he felt it was the nicest designed factory stock ever offered.
![[Linked Image]](http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r74/RDFinn/P1000526.jpg)
RDFinn, that's a nice looking rig. What is its chambering?
I like walnut. It's light and works great as a stock wood. I can't look at plastic all day while hunting.
Originally Posted by JMR40
My thoughts on laminated stocks. Yes they can be lighter, but at 2.25 lbs they are still heavy. A good synthetic can be as light as 1 lb. and getting to 1.75 is not hard at all.
The wood can delaminate and cause problems.
No matter how well you seal a wood stock there is always moisture trapped inside. Most wood used in gunstocks has a moisture content between 5%-15% with around 10% being average. Remove too much moisture during the drying process and the wood becomes brittle and will break easily.
Even if you could somehow completely seal the stock as barometric pressure, and temperature change the moisture trapped inside will expand and contract. Because of the thin layers glued together the laminated wood will be more stable than solid wood, but is still not perfect.
I have rifles with walnut, laminated, cheap plastic, as well as quality fiberglass stocks. They all work and have their place, but the quality synthetic stocks are probably the most stable and dependable.
The wood can delaminate and cause problems.
No matter how well you seal a wood stock there is always moisture trapped inside. Most wood used in gunstocks has a moisture content between 5%-15% with around 10% being average. Remove too much moisture during the drying process and the wood becomes brittle and will break easily.
Even if you could somehow completely seal the stock as barometric pressure, and temperature change the moisture trapped inside will expand and contract. Because of the thin layers glued together the laminated wood will be more stable than solid wood, but is still not perfect.
I have rifles with walnut, laminated, cheap plastic, as well as quality fiberglass stocks. They all work and have their place, but the quality synthetic stocks are probably the most stable and dependable.
Interesting rewrite on reality...
Temperature induced size changes in wood are very small and virtually unrelated to the water in the wood.
I doubt you could find a single stock at 15% MC. Wood does lots of moving around 15%.
While brittle wood is a function of drying it is more related to the speed of drying than the actual MC. Further, "brittle" wood is not necessarily much weaker, but rather transitions rapidly from sound to broken, but at similar pressures when talking about wood in a stock which will be 5-9%.
Changes in MC cause changes in wood size. Virtually all damage done in real world conditions is a function of swelling from taking on water.
Originally Posted by ol_mike
I think jeffo has a laminated rifle,he said laminates used for hunting in western oregon's damp rainy weather were not that good.
After hunting in wet conditions for a couple of days the rifle was shot and was 8-10" off zero ,then as the stock dried out it slowly returned to zero.
Wood and laminated wood rifles have noticeably changed zero compared to composites [hs precision].
After hunting in wet conditions for a couple of days the rifle was shot and was 8-10" off zero ,then as the stock dried out it slowly returned to zero.
Wood and laminated wood rifles have noticeably changed zero compared to composites [hs precision].
No... I didn't say that, and it's not my experience at all. My main "rain" gun is laminate (a .358 M7) and it gets soaked. I just lean it by the woodstove. No problems in about 9 seasons of consistant wet hunting.
My '06 also has a laminate stock, the Mountain Rifle version. Love that stock. It has seen a lot of water too. No problems; very stable.
Given the composition of the two materials (walnut vs. plywood) I cannot understand how the case could be made that they are the same, functionally. Laminate is very stable. SOME walnut might be, but certainly not all, or even most. That's just my uneducated opinion but it seems pretty obvious to me?
I've drilled out the butts of each of my 3 laminate stocks. It works so well to lighten them and correct the balance that I'm surprised it's not done by the factory!
I love laminate stocks and have seen nothing but stability and toughness from them. I also love fiberglass- but that's a different question. I don't know much about walnut. It rains so much here that I've just run with stainless and lammie or fiberglass or even (gasp) plastic stocks. No walnut.
That is a 300 WM. I special ordered it with a 40x barrel turned down naturally, a 40x trigger and stainless action. Had the whole thing Black-T coated by Birdsong. It's wicked accurate.
Originally Posted by Jeff_O
Originally Posted by ol_mike
I think jeffo has a laminated rifle,he said laminates used for hunting in western oregon's damp rainy weather were not that good.
After hunting in wet conditions for a couple of days the rifle was shot and was 8-10" off zero ,then as the stock dried out it slowly returned to zero.
Wood and laminated wood rifles have noticeably changed zero compared to composites [hs precision].
After hunting in wet conditions for a couple of days the rifle was shot and was 8-10" off zero ,then as the stock dried out it slowly returned to zero.
Wood and laminated wood rifles have noticeably changed zero compared to composites [hs precision].
No... I didn't say that, and it's not my experience at all. My main "rain" gun is laminate (a .358 M7) and it gets soaked. I just lean it by the woodstove. No problems in about 9 seasons of consistant wet hunting.
My '06 also has a laminate stock, the Mountain Rifle version. Love that stock. It has seen a lot of water too. No problems; very stable.
Given the composition of the two materials (walnut vs. plywood) I cannot understand how the case could be made that they are the same, functionally. Laminate is very stable. SOME walnut might be, but certainly not all, or even most. That's just my uneducated opinion but it seems pretty obvious to me?
I've drilled out the butts of each of my 3 laminate stocks. It works so well to lighten them and correct the balance that I'm surprised it's not done by the factory!
I love laminate stocks and have seen nothing but stability and toughness from them. I also love fiberglass- but that's a different question. I don't know much about walnut. It rains so much here that I've just run with stainless and lammie or fiberglass or even (gasp) plastic stocks. No walnut.
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JeffO ,
I guess i misread or confused an old thread ? but i thought you had spoke of a laminated stock that had changed POI due to rain/snow conditions .
Ol' Mike, I think you are remembering a story I might have told about an experience my buddy Tom had. He aimed behind the shoulder of a raghorn elk at 75 yards, shot, and the animal dropped instantly... well, you would too, if someone just shot you in the neck! 
Turns out the stock had warped in the wet conditions, and moved the POI by something like 14". He kept shooting it over a long period without re-zeroing and as the rifle dried the POI gradually moved back to where it was supposed to be.
But that was with a WALNUT stock.
I've never seen a laminate stock budge one bit, but I've only hunted three of them. For a laminate stock to warp would take,... I don't know what! Hard to see how a block of epoxy impregnated plywood could warp, but I'm sure it's possible somehow. I haven't seen it though.
Turns out the stock had warped in the wet conditions, and moved the POI by something like 14". He kept shooting it over a long period without re-zeroing and as the rifle dried the POI gradually moved back to where it was supposed to be.
But that was with a WALNUT stock.
I've never seen a laminate stock budge one bit, but I've only hunted three of them. For a laminate stock to warp would take,... I don't know what! Hard to see how a block of epoxy impregnated plywood could warp, but I'm sure it's possible somehow. I haven't seen it though.
Big 10-4 --actually i just love to provide disinformation -especially about you !laf
I guess i'm back liking laminated stocks ,walnut is great too --for furniture .
And yes a good neck shot would drop me in my tracks -providing a tsx bullet was used.
I guess i'm back liking laminated stocks ,walnut is great too --for furniture .
And yes a good neck shot would drop me in my tracks -providing a tsx bullet was used.
Originally Posted by Swampman700
I like walnut. It's light and works great as a stock wood. I can't look at plastic all day while hunting.
http:/
![[Linked Image]](http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d34/Woodsman1956/Remington/100_03891.jpg)
Wow!
Who makes that badboy???
Who makes that badboy???
Swampman does!
Looks like he was funning us all this time about plastic stocks.
That big kidder..
Looks like he was funning us all this time about plastic stocks.
That big kidder..
That is great.
Too funny!
Maybe I should camo the Horse Gun with some of that scentlok paint?
Too funny!
Maybe I should camo the Horse Gun with some of that scentlok paint?
![[Linked Image]](http://i560.photobucket.com/albums/ss45/thmsbrownlee/24HRC/2sg04w2vfd.jpg)
That kid must have just seen the stock!
Speaking of laminate, I would love to get one of those Ruger or Tikka 204's. I like the solid feel of the laminate stocks.
They are heavy though, think the sporters go about 8lbs nekkid?
Speaking of laminate, I would love to get one of those Ruger or Tikka 204's. I like the solid feel of the laminate stocks.
They are heavy though, think the sporters go about 8lbs nekkid?
Juat say no to Plywood..
There's better living through chemicals.
There's better living through chemicals.
Gotta go with Johnny on this one...it'll take about a pound off a Tikka...
.204 instead of .223..???
Dude....
Ingwe
.204 instead of .223..???
Dude....
Ingwe
I want a lam 204 coyotepronghorn rifle.
Badass bros!
Badass bros!
Are dey makin' any good boolits for a goat in that calibre yet??
Ingwe
Ingwe
I was just wondering the exact same thing.
Gonna look right now.
Gonna look right now.
Midway didn't show anything goat worthy.
I bet soon enough there will be something.
Amazing velocity though, gonna have to be a tough little slug.
I bet soon enough there will be something.
Amazing velocity though, gonna have to be a tough little slug.
Dats what I was thinkin....exactamundo...
Ingwe
Ingwe
Okay, so maybe just a 'yote gun....(grin)
The PD guys are NUTZ about the .204...
And I'll bet it would send a gopher to another asrtral plane completely!
Ingwe
And I'll bet it would send a gopher to another asrtral plane completely!
Ingwe
wind blows the .204 around too much..
According to Federal's ammo chart it does pretty good!
C'mon.. I'm bored and I'm trying to get the .204 guys all worked up.
Well, I didn't want to be rude and say that it smokes the 223 out to oh, about 500 yards....(grin)
Originally Posted by Rancho_Loco
C'mon.. I'm bored and I'm trying to get the .204 guys all worked up.
All you gotta do is say TSXs suck!
They'll be into it for about 20 pages of thread before they realize nobody makes a .204 TSX....
Ingwe
There was an article written up in the Deer Hunters of Idaho newsletter about a guy shooting a few deer with a .20 Tactical. He got Barnes to turn him a few bullets.
Theres no reason it wouldnt work, and work well...if they'd produce the boolits...
Ingwe
Ingwe
Yeah!
You've got pull Ingwe, tell them bastid's to hurry up!
I'd even try a Barnes then, should have enough velocity for expansion....maybe.....(grin)
You've got pull Ingwe, tell them bastid's to hurry up!
I'd even try a Barnes then, should have enough velocity for expansion....maybe.....(grin)
True dat....maybe Ill make a little phone call......
Then we'll see how much "pull" I really have....
You buy the gun, I'll make the call...
Ingwe
Then we'll see how much "pull" I really have....
You buy the gun, I'll make the call...
Ingwe
Tell 'em we need a couple 'test' rifles too....(grin)
Later.
Johnny, have a safe trip back south!
Later.
Johnny, have a safe trip back south!
Yikes.. Thanks man. This is going to be hard this time - just got settled back in..
Laminated wood stocks boys, laminated wood stocks. FOCUS!!!!
The Hornady 45 grain spire point is supposed to be tough, in a relative sense.
Originally Posted by ingwe
Originally Posted by Rancho_Loco
C'mon.. I'm bored and I'm trying to get the .204 guys all worked up.
All you gotta do is say TSXs suck!
They'll be into it for about 20 pages of thread before they realize nobody makes a .204 TSX....
Ingwe
Boy, you nailed that.........
Casey
Just caught up with this thread...
Ingwe, that's hilarious. Freakin' made me snort soda on my keyboard, damnit.
Ingwe, that's hilarious. Freakin' made me snort soda on my keyboard, damnit.