I don't hunt with a round in the chamber when hunting with my bolt action rifles, or even when hunting with my internal hammer leverguns such as my Savage 99 and Winchester 88. I don't do this for safety reasons, and because I can run a round in fast enough with those actions that I don't worry about missing shots.

However, this season I'm going to be hunting with my Browning 71 which is an outside hammer levergun with no safety. This Browning does not have the rebounding hammer and tang safety of the newer Miroku 1886 clones.

So, my question is, how many of you hunt with a round in the chamber and the hammer down? If so, why? If not, why not?

This question also applies to outside hammer shotguns, and I'll be hunting with one of those this year as well, a 16ga J.P. Clapbrough. Here are some pics to get the debate going

Whatever I hunt with, there's one in the chamber.

Ah, schit..........................

Here we go again............................

Perhaps, but not necessarily. I've already considered and rejected the arguments of those who hunt with a round in the chamber as a matter of course. What little advantage they derive is heavily outweighed by the dangers inherent in relying on a mechanical safety.

My question is whether an outside hammer changes the equation in any way.

I should also add that I don't mind tag-soup, so long as there's a salt-shaker nearby

Expound please

If I'm hunting, I don't care what rifle I'm using, there will be a round in the chamber.

I have a Model 71 identical to yours, and a Marlin 45-70, as well. I hunt with a round in the chamber and the hammer on the half-cock (safety notch).

It's the same as carrying a six shooter with either 5 or 6 in the cylinder.Whatever a guy believes in.I personally carry my 45-70 hot with the hammer down and am well aware of the situation.It takes alot of force to pull the hammer back on a levergun unlike the bolt gun safeties.

Jayco

For example, many who hunt with a round in the chamber as a matter of course say that it is necessary in case game is jumped. I have not found that to be the case given that I can rapidly work a bolt, or a lever in the case of my 99 or 88. Alternatively, some have said that muzzle control and mechanical safeties are sufficient to make the gun safe; that may be true, but I would rather not take the risk.

It's a matter of preference, and I don't object to the practice--I just haven't adopted it as my own. I hunt with guys who have a round in the chamber; I don't try to convince them otherwise, but I don't emulate them either.

My question is whether the arguments for or against the practice are any different for guns with external hammers.

That's what I've been thinking the more I handle the gun; unlike most mechanical safeties, that hammer likely won't get jarred open or brushed open. Thanks for the input.

Oregon 45,

The only toy I have with an exposed hammer is my .454. When I hunt with it all five chambers are loaded. One can never tell when one is going to encounter a rabbid animal, a an angry bear, a mountain lion, or a man eating thunderbird. Gotta be ready.

I always hunt with a cold chamber on lever guns. I can work the action quickly on my model 94's (pre-64). With that being said I have shown various people that the safety cock on the hammer can be positioned (with some trigger/hammer finagling) so that the hammer will fall with the trigger being pulled. A round will discharge when this occours.

Bolt or lever, maybe. But a double barrel shotgun??

I really want to be standing there when a bird or rabbit or whatever jumps, and you're holding an empty shotgun!

You really think you're going to crack it open, drop a couple shells in, close it, cock it, and fire, and STILL hit something?? And you think fumbling with shells like THAT is somehow safer than carrying it with shells in the chambers? Wow....



Tag soup? Yep, you're going to be eating a lot of it if you plan on hunting with an empty shotgun....

I carry my shotgun completely cased and broken down. When a partridge goes up, I open the case, assemble, load and shoot.

Everyone I know does it this way. It is the right way. I used to leave it locked in the truck and go back for it after a bird flushed, but this way I always get my limit.

Either most folks shoot elk an deer further away than I do,or thier rifles are a lot more quieter than mine when working the action. The two elk and two deer that I shot this year would have heard any lever gun being worked if I had to slip one in the chanber. Even my 88.

I shot one cow elk that I snuck up to in her bed. She would have heard any click. The bull, I worked for about 200yds or so.It always was givng me the slip in 4 ft tall junipers.Every time I had a slight chance for a shot,it slipped off some more. When I did get a chance to shoot,I had maybe 5 seconds to do so.

On my Marlin 94, I have disabled the cross saftey with an o-ring and depend on the hammer to provide the safety just as they have down for 150 years.

Every one should do as they feel safe with. Myself I consider walking around without around in the chamber to be called hiking. A round in the chamber,I am hunting .

Riding a mule,a vehicle or whatever,the chamber is unloaded.

When hunting in the heavy timber,where I usually do 95% of my hunting, my sling is off the rifle and I am carrying my rifle at the ready. That is the main reason I like hammer/lever guns in the timber. I can mount the rifle and cock it all in one motion.
Are lever guns safe using the hammer? I don't know. Any mechanical device can fail. I never trust them. Safe gun handling is paramount, but I reject the argument most give that carrying with one in the chamber is unsafe.

If that is the premise,all skiers should not have thier skis on, going down hill.In CO this year,three skiers have been killed, no hunters were.

As I�ve stated many times, it�s a mixed bag for me. Empty chamber is common with bolt and leverguns. Once I chamber one, however, it often stays chambered.

There is no firearm that is safer than one that is unloaded. Both mechanical and mental safeties are subject to failure.

Common sense and attention to the damned muzzle will go a long way.
You may hunt in an area where you can see three states from your mountain top. That's good. Keep your bullets in your pocket.
Where I hunt, a deer may be bedded ten feet from me. Don't think he's going to stand, stretch his legs like a yard dog, and wait for me to load my gun.
Hell, I'd rather not hunt than drag my ass through the woods with an unloaded gun...

Saddlesore,

unsafe in the equation are we, the people.

Germany has 300.000 hunters and roughly 10 deadly accidents per year while hunting. 4 - 6 involve firearms - falling down, dropping the rifle, snatching the safety on a branch or even 'glassing' an not yet identified object through the scope and / or shooting at not positively identified targets are the reasons.

The first three on the list can happen to anybody - novices and old salts.

There are idiots out there doing Nr. 4.

In all events - an empty chamber can be a life saver. This, and not so much to be a pain in the all prescious, is the motivation of the 'cold' ones.

Because of the fact, that any mishap or stupid accident affects all of us and is avoidable, we are vocal about this.

And before someone brightens up to opine, that the odds quoted above are low - they are not low enough, when every inquiry comes back with the verdict - avoidable with regular and correct safe gunhandling.

To the OP:

I carry my Marlins with the chamber free. On stand with a round in the chamber, hammer on halfnotch.

Exactly why I asked the question: I don't expect to open the gun, drop two shells in, close the gun and then pull the hammers back and fire. If you have a technique you use with outside hammer shotguns I'd be happy to hear it. I've read of several but am always looking to learn more.

My comments on not hunting with a round in the chamber apply only to bolt actions and modern lever guns utilizing mechanical safeties, as is clear in the original post and is why I asked the question to begin with.

Thanks, that's what I'm leaning toward with my 71; hammer down when moving on loaded chamber when moving, half cock when on stand.

Oregon45,

That's that cool .348 you just scored, right? What a find!

Round in the chamber, half-cock, for me with a lever. I've hunted a few Marlins and a Winchester 94 that way. However, mostly I hunt a BLR that way. BLR's are particularly well-designed in that regard; the hammer is hinged midway and folds forward to, in my analysis, protect the rear of that firing pin in a virtually impregnable manner.

In fact, a couple years ago this was being debated with, shall we say, extreme vigor... grin... and I posted a pic of the BLR hammer at half-cock folded forward and dared anyone to explain a reasonable scenario where that could fail. Nobody even tried. Believe you me, there was a score of angry Alaskans and assorted hangers-on who WANTED to... grin... but they couldn't. It is mechanically quite safe. A virtual dismemberment of the rifle would be required to make it fail- by my analysis.

Anyway I'll unload when circumstances dictate, but if I'm in the woods hunting, round in chamber, half cock, and using common sense is how I roll.

When I'm hunting with my Browning BLR, Marlin Guide Gun ,Remington Mountain rifle even my Ruger NO#1, there is always one in the chamber. Same with my shotguns and my muzzleloader.

If there is no round in the chamber, then I'm just out for a walk. My safety is muzzle control.

Just for clarities sake - the marlins only have one notch, just off contact with the pin.

When moving, I carry chamber emty, magazine full. I do a lot of 'walking in the woods'

An empty gun is useless. EOS

Oldman,

I figured with a blinker out of alignment, you'd be extra careful about carrying hot..

I chamber up only during active stalks, during walking/slow/still hunts and when on stand regardless of the action type. Hammer down, only cocked when ready to fire.

100% FOCUS ON muzzle discipline 24/7/365 even when the chamber is clear.
Works for me.

I've had a half-cock sear fail on an old 25-35 I used when I was a kid. It had been broken off partially by some previous user. It went off when i jumped down off a log.

Dad thought i had it cocked at first but eventually figured it out which was a good thing for my health.....

Point is I suggest you impact test and squeeze test a half cock before you trust it.

I still have to laugh at all that profess 100% muzzle control, it's not possible.

I also love the 'a rifle without a round in the chamber is just a stick'

Can you work the bolt/lever on a frigging stick and shoot something 100 yards away.....

do you hunt birds with an empty double shotgun ?

Nope, there is a cartridge in each chamber, just did it yesterday.

Without being argumentative, I'll let you laugh at me.

Forty plus years without an AD or ND. Never a round fired without intent.

Never had a firearm mechanical failure either.
Can one happen? Sure.
But I'll be danged if the muzzle will be pointing at anything on my body or another's body unless I mean for it to be.
I can control that, of which I am 100% positive.

You are a lucky man. My buddy never had a car accident till he was 53 and only had one, which he didn't live through.

I've walked through enough Alaska brush etc to have busted my ass on more than one occasion. If you can maintain 100% muzzle control when tumbling down some nasty [bleep] you are either delusional or should be in the Circus.

OK. I'm simply lucky.

Sorry about your friend.

I don't care how folks want to do stuff, but there is nothing 100% except for death and taxes.

I go by the premise that every gun is always loaded, however
when I am actively hunting in an area or terain type that may produce an animal up close then I hunt hot on safety but if the terain will allow time I carry cold.

Von Gruff.

When you walk up to a fence with a double,you break it down and cross the fence then reload..Hummmm I have heard of alot of hunting accidents but most were other knot heads shooting at anything that moves,not someone shooting there self with a hot chamber,now after hunting season a bunch of nut jobs forget to unload and clean there guns blowing anyone in the path away,but not hunting.

Everyone should do what they feel safe with..

Jayco

11 year old shoot when companion trips

11 year old shoots himself in head whilst hunting with his 100% Grandfather


Man shoots himself whilst hunting

Man slips and shoots self whilst elk hunting

66 year old man shoots self deer hunting

What's your point?

OMG.You quote 300,000 huters wher eyou hunt.I believe there are 300,000 at least in CO alone. States like WI,PA,Tx take twice that many deer each year.Hunting in the US is a relatively safe sport.

I believe turkey hunting is the most dangerous hunting as I have read. Don't know if that is true.

BTW. I almost 99% hunt by myself. When I encounter another huter,I usually unload.

Your more likely to get killed by a car or a plane accident then shooting your self with a loaded weapon,provided your an experienced hunter and outdoors man.Like a double barrel,unload the dang thing when your in a rough spot.You don't have to stay loaded.

Besides,The question was about an external hammer!
How many of you guys only carry 5 in your 44 Mags?

Jayco

OMG, the guy posted that he had never heard of someone shooting themselves whilst hunting. That only took a 4 minutes worth of google time.

Yes Virgina there is a Santa Claus

You are correct, why mitigate where one can. Again, I don't give a [bleep] if you all shoot yourselves or not, but don't tell me that you or anyone else can maintain 100% muzzle control 100% of the time.

Something has to grab the hammer and pull it back far enough to give enough force to ignite the primer not a little bump or rub of the safety..Like I said,your a bird hunter and use a double(loaded) and I am sure you unload when you feel necessary for safety concerns as I do,why does this not work for a leveraction?

Jayco

If you really want to be safe you could carry your ammo in your back pocket........or just stay home........

Then Colonel Cooper's rule #2 is simply wasted breath.

First I'll comment on the hammer double barrel. I hunt with one quite a bit, and keep both hammers cocked and the gun open. I close the gun either when the dog I'm hunting with gets really birdy or goes on point. In more open country I just close the gun when the bird flushes, as the gun is one its way to my shoulder.

There are a lot of people who do it this way. You could conceivably still fall and have the gun close during the fall and go off, but then almost anything is possible.

With rifles, the chamber is empty anytime the country is reasonably open (even in timber) and especially when the rifle is slung over my shoulder. This is particularly true with single-shots. The only time I've broken this rifle is with my Merkel K-1 with the tang "safety" that actually cocks the rifle. But even then I prefer to carry it empty.

I don't see where anyone is wrong for the way they hunt or handle a weapon.I mean,were all here and talking about it which says alot.Maybe I hunt or use a firearm different than some others but I have been doing it for over 50 years, my dad and grandfather longer than that and we have all our fingers and toes and haven't shot anyone yet,not that I wouldn't like to a time or two.

My best friend in Junior High got shot from behind with a 30-06 and tore his leg apart from the knee to his hip,in the hospital for several months and his dad saw the guy going over the hill..Never caught to this day..Sheet happens sometimes regardless of how well a man or lady is schooled on firearms or there way of doing things..

I am way more scared of other hunters than my approach to carrying a firearm.

Jayco

I think you are correct.

However I've busted my ass a few times while hunting, and while I won't claim perfect muzzle control whilst the ass-busting was underway, I will say that keeping the muzzle from pointing at MYSELF is a no-brainer. Since I hunt alone 99% of the time, I'm not gonna lose sleep over the fact that my muzzle pointed at a couple trees and the sky on the way down.

(The worst is small logs, laying on the ground, running uphill/downhill, under 10" of fresh snow... There's a recipe for ass-busting <g>)...

Ditto!

I hunt with one in the chamber with my model 71, half cocked.

As with most things there is a time and place when they should or should not be done. The same applies to hot/cold. Knowing when to be hot usually takes experience and experience usually involves time.

If you knew you were going to take a spill and yet not know just how bad it would be, would you knowingly do it with a loaded firearm? That fall we all are going to eventually take, we don't know exactly what is going to happen until it is over.

I run both ways, depending on circumstance, and most times have one in the chamber with the bolt up and safety on. In open country or in the immediate vicinity of others the chamber is empty. It's what works for me, and I pray I never regret it.

As far as hammer firearms goes, from what I've read MuleDeer does it like the experienced people do. Although hunting with a hammer gun involves for most of us a new learning curve. Before I hunted with one it would be preceded by some dedicated practice.

The good thing about this thread is that it should make us all evaluate how we do things. I have friends whom I don't question how they do it because I've come to literally trust them with my life and they have earned that trust.

It would be rare for you to find me sitting in a tree like a monkey. Reason being I'd rather try to make something happen than wait around for it to happen. One of the times I did the stand collapsed and I went 20 feet to the ground with a cold rifle and walked away. The fall should have killed me, a loaded rifle may have. I'll make some enemies now, but any who are up in a stand with a loaded firearm need to rethink their priorities. Having an arrow go thru my guts even scares me more.

Not saying I'm right. Just saying think about time and place.

Those who have an attitude about not even trying to improve on safety scare me the most.

If you worry about a loaded lever gun, you must have a stroke to see a 1911 "cocked & locked".(but probably carry a Colt S.A. or a 3 screw Ruger with 6 in it) (LAFFIN)

The hammer double gun method suggested is the same used back in the day and excellent. Those who read can find it in turn of the century shooting books.

As for some of you: What part of "Never point a gun at something you don't intend to shoot." did you miss? I've hunted in the woods in all kinds of weather, taken many a spill and in 45 years afield have never had an accidental discharge.

And for you dummies "playing chase" from ARRIG, the fellow with the bad eyes is a friend, not me. He still puts his limit of Deer and Antelope on the ground every year. But, given your home site, I know it's fun to mock the handicapped isn't it?

He's made it 66 years and still does everything you ARRIG punks couldn't begin to. Especially being civil!

I've done doves with an empty chamber in my 870 - and picked up doubles.

You mean like a fall? Lord knows I've had enough of those, even on relatively flat ground. Had the dry ground cave in on me a couple times on gentle slopes and once on a flat, dry two-track. Schitt happens.

Flatlanders..

CH-You know how much room there is between the scope and the hammer,if your levergun is scoped,not much,so what are the odds in your falling that something get's in between the scope and hammer with enough force to pull the hammer back and set one off?

The point being,when your in rough ground,unload that puppy or if your a disaster waiting to happen on two legs, then do not carry hot!

I carried a 32" chain saw around the hills over my shoulder like 3" from my neck on a small felt pad for years..Have I fallen like this,heck yes but I never have cut my neck knowing it "was there".Have I ever fallen with a loaded firearm,No because I take extra precaution not to or unload in rough terrain.

Jayco

If I'm hunting, I don't care what rifle I'm using, there will be a round in the chamber.

I agree, regardless of which long gun I'm carrying. If hunting, I carry a long gun with both hands (port arms) with my right hand covering the trigger guard.

In Vermont, when I'm hunting birds, partridge or woodcock, most of the time I'm hunting in timber and abandoned farmland, with thorns, scrub apples and berry bushes. When you walk, sometimes you have to hold your shotgun chest high. Most of the time I hunt alone. If I'm with a partner we put a good distance between us. The partridge will generally hold tight and won't flush until you stop walking. When they decide to go you better be ready to shoot, you'll be lucky if you get one shot off before they disappear into the woodline. I envy the people who can hunt in tall grass, watch their dogs point, and have a wide open space to shoot their birds.

I read the first post and then replied.

I hunt with a round in the chamber every time I hunt. I also conceal carry my pistols with a round in the chamber as well.

Hunting firearms include- Remington model 700's, pre '64 Winchester model 88, Marlin 336C w/ cross bolt safety (only use cross bolt for unloading, use half cock while hunting), Remington 11-87's & 870's, Ruger 10-22, I'm forgeting a few lol.

Carry pistols include- Glock's and SW1911.

I took several spills with loaded firearms. First priority is always keep the muzzle pointed is a safe direction. It should be a natural reaction. If you get in a situtation where there is a good chance you will take a spill unload it, with a partner , hand it off. The best way to avoid a accident is to just pay attention.

You guys hunting birds with open doubles are hunting different birds than I hunt. If nothing else, I'd get too much debris into the clockworks of my Citori if I hunted grouse with it open like that.

The folding BLR hammer is a brilliantly safe design for an open-hammer gun. Even IF something somehow got between the scope and the rifle and hit the hammer and knocked it off half-cock, the hammer covers and protects the firing pin. By my (non-MechE) analysis, for it to fails gets into the shear strength of the large steel pivot pins and the receiver itself.