Anyone had any dealings with EMPIRE RIFLES? They were mentioned to me and their rifles look very nice. They do a completely custom Mauser-type short action called the 98S that is just beautiful. It better be for $2700...just for the action!
I have an opportunity to purchase a like new "field grade" Empire rifle for around $4500. Looking at their website, their rifles start at around $5500, so this appears to be a good deal. When I did a little research on Gunbroker, the last one sold was a really nice wood stocked .300 Win Mag that sold for $3900(after being listed twice-no one bought it the first time it was on). Considering the market, is $4500 that good of a deal?

for $300 you can have a decent shooting rifle...

for $600 you can have a decent shooting, nice looking rifle...

for $1200, or a bit more you can have a decent shooting, nice looking rifle, and probably something lighter in weight, or a deluxe wood stock...

some people want more in a rifle, but the price follows a law of diminishing returns...

i've haeld 2 empire rifles in my hands and they were, indeed, nice rifles...
but only you can decide if they're worth 5 times the price of say, a new FN winchester...

JohnW: I think your right on. As I type I have a stainless Win 70 barreled SA action, a McMillan stock, NECG sights and some bottom metal sitting beside me. This makes me wonder why I'm even considering buying the Empire rifle. I like the idea of a no-holds barred "perfect" go-to rifle, but I think they are asking a little much, especially when the resale appears to be so low.

I guess if I made 6 figures I could justify it but I'm upper level blue collar and the truth of the matter is your getting a rifle that's 10% "better" than a Win 70 for almost a 500% price increase. Then there is the non-standard parts that come with a custom action, not that you would need them, it's just nice to know I can get most parts for a M70.

Empire Rifles are more art than work tools. Many many people are art lovers Wish I could afford to be! Hell, you don't go round but once....

You might want to check on AA with a poster "Fish3014". Don is a super nice guy and I think he's had a couple experiences with Empire Arms.

I called them to inquire about buying an action and they wanted full payment in advance and wouldn't specify a delivery time. hmmmmm

Be careful about ordering expensive custom rifles! Be prepared to wait twice as long as you suspect. If it comes in on budget and when they say you can be happy, if it takes longer it's what you really expected........................DJ

Which forum are you refering to when you say "AA"? I talked to George of Empire (the owner?)and he seemed like a nice guy. He was very knowledgeable. I think he mentioned that they have a bunch the actions sitting on the shelf in need of heat treatment. I'm guessing he gets an order for an action and sends it out to be heat treated. Another thought is they keep em' in the non-hardened state in case a customer wants engraving...but I was thinking the engravers did't do their thing until the action was hardened. Don't know much or care for engraving, just seems like you are asking for the rig to rust more.

I hit 6 figures left of the decimal in most good years... I have yet to lead off with a far left digit higher than a "1", though...
no empires in my safe....

sounds like a cool project that you've got in the wings.....

After some Google-fu I did find this not-so-positive review on the Africa hunting forums. I know the internet is not gospel, but this was posted a few weeks ago by what appears to be(by reading his posts) a gentleman who hunts regularly in Africa:

"I wanted to get a feeling out there for Empire. Great advertising and endorsements right. After purchasing a rifle 3 years ago at SCI Reno, I have had nothing but a battle with Empire owner George Sandmann, a snake oil salesman to say the least. The failure of the rifle could be witnessed on Tracks Across Africa where I was hunting lion on a show called "Search for Shumba". After the first shot, I cycled the bolt and the case ejected but did not load another round. You can hear on the video "click" as I take my second shot. It turned out my expensive made to order custom rifle in 375 H&H had a feeding problem when I got home. Well after having the rifle and "fixing it", the rifle again failed me on an elephant hunt in Zim last year. I have at least a hundred emails of correspondence with George Sandmann of Empire and he told me he would purchase the rifle back from me and then today rescinded the offer. What he was paying me was about 30% less than I payed for the defective rifle. He offered to fix it again, but would you trust someone who has failed to build or fix the rifle properly twice to fix it a third time? This is after it was personally tested and signed off by George Sandmann and guaranteed to be fixed. I figure I have 7 lives left after hunting lion, elephant and buffalo with a rifle that is defective. As I have done some investigation Empire does not have rifle makers on staff(they recently added one supposedly), subs out a lot of their work and pieces together their rifles. These gunsmiths that were working on the rifles will not work for him anymore because he owes them large sums of money for work completed. I have had a very reputable gunsmith go through the rifle and there is still major problems with the rifle. He has some great testimonials on the website, but it is a shame when you spend $10,000 on a rifle and it doesn't even work properly(especially when hunting dangerous game). I was at SCI and I witnessed George being chewed out by several clients with his failure to deliver rifles in a time frame promised. I am going to try to post the video for everyone to see the lion get shot and then the second shot failing to load. I can go on and on, but why bother. I am going to take Empire to the SCI ethics committee for fraud and I am in the process of putting together a report for the hunting report. Just want to spread the word and make sure no one else is taken advantage of."

My internet digging also revealed several other individuals who had luke warm experiences with Empire Rifles. For now my money is staying in my pocket and I'm going to stick with my Mod 70s.

My go to rifles for Africa and elsewhere are Model 70's or slicked up CZ's. You are on the right track.

Good advice.

What kind of moron goes to Africa without a proven rifle, anyhow? Shouldn't anyone, ANYONE, try out their rifles before going on an expensive trip? Kripes amighty, it sounds like this bozo DESERVES to be lion crap.

Not that I'm defending Empire Rifles, never heard of them, but the guy who was sniveling about them ain't no peach, either..... I saw a lot of that kind of stuff during my pistol-shooting days, guys got a fancy tricked-out pistol and didn't know how to use it right.

You could go buy a CZ and send it off to Lon Paul for a work over and when you are all done, you would have enough money left over to go shoot something. Or if you if you can afford it and the wait, Have D'Arcy Echol's build you a legend. You would not loose any money on one of those. As for Empire, Its a rifle a fellow builds, so take it for what its worth. Compared to a guy like Echol's he got ads all over and 24/7 that should tell you something. Another option is just call up Mel Forbe's at NULA and be done with it.

Funny and completely true....

This is a perfect example of why I always advocate the carrying of tooth pics as back up.

I feel for the guy, spending 10K for a rifle that won't work. That being said, If I ever went to hunt dangerous game, I'd dang sure have tested, tried and true rifles along for the trip.

And after the first failure, with a Lion no less, That rifle would have had to cycle about 200 rounds flawlessly, before it got another chance to fail me.

JM

I was thinking the EXACT same thing.
Thick in the wallet, thick in the head.

"Another option is just call up Mel Forbe's at NULA and be done with it."

Second that!

It's not that the author took an unproven rifle to Africa(he admits that he took it as a back-up rifle), it's that Empire failed to resolve the issues even after the rifle went back a couple of times. Everyone makes mistakes, but often it's how the individual/company handles those mistakes that make the difference.

If I waited for 2 years for a rifle and it wouldn't run, I'd probably just get my money back. I'm sticking to my Mod 70s and Kimber's.

Agreed 100%. It used to be if you had a bad experience with a company, it was generally held within a small circle of acquaintances. Now, the world can know in less than fifteen minutes.

Over the last week I have communicated at length with the owner of Empire Rifles, George Sandmann. He confirmed that he doesn't build everything in house and subcontracts out several parts of the rifle building process to trusted firms. He seems like a strait shooter, a guy that is just trying to put a high quality product in the hands of (higher) end users. According to him, he has a local guy fit and install the barrels but all other finish work is done in house. The 98S action, a creation of him and Bill Wiseman, are made by an outside firm due to the EDM machining involved. Since my first post, I have been able to handle an Empire Rifle first-hand and the fit and finish seems to be very good. George has also quoted a very reasonable delivery time, well inside every other high end smith that you can think of.

His 98S Mauser action, SHOWN HERE represents everything one could want in a rifle action. He is currently prototyping a version with a standard picatinny rail machined integrally into his action, which should be available shortly. It's very expensive at $2750 for the action, but Dakota's are up over $2K now so what's and extra $700(sarcasm!) I am also aware of fluctuations in the quality of Dakota's actions since the company was sold to Remington.

I'm still thinking about it. These Winchester 70 parts at my side are tempting me(my buddy wants them really bad) but I've always wanted a "no holes barred" custom rifle and I don't want to wait 3-4 years.

I didn't catch the caliber we're looking at (?)

-----------------------

I've spent $2-2.5K a couple of times (everything's more work for a lefty, it seems) but I'd have a hard time spending much more than that on a bolt action. Any Ruger/Win/CZ could be made pretty spiffy for $3K.

If this is going to be a larger caliber gun, spending a little more for a double would be worth considering. It would hold value much better, not to mention be fitted to you .

Buy a pre 64 Winchester 70,save your money and it will be worth more later,after you go into the old folks home....it might just pay for your stay..with TV and free HBO!

Utahlefty:

I want it built in old and boring .308. My goal is to build a short, light, general-purpose "practical" rifle. I've had pre-64s and post-64s, but I'd something special, built with all the features I want. Here are the features I want:

1)controlled round feed short action, preferably in stainless steel with a 18"-
20" light contour barrel(.308) Action choices: Winchester 70 CRF SA, Dakota, or Empire Arms
2)NECG Masterpiece banded front sight and Masterpiece island rear sight
3)bed in McMillan stock and install flushcups sling swivels, a 3rd swivel spot for a "Ching Sling"
4)Burris xtreme 2-piece picatinny bases or Nightforce 2-piece steel picatinny bases(the Empire rifle has this built in)
5)Nightforce 2.5-10X32 compact scope(these are awesome scopes!) in Warne quick. detachable rings
6)A Trijicon H-1 red dot in QD mount for mounting on front/bridge rail section(for Hogs in the thickets or social encounters)
7)short lenght of Picatinny rail on the left side of the forend for mounting a Surefire weaponlight(for shooting hogs at night or social encounters)

The idea being a multipurpose, super handy, short and light arm that can be used for hunting or in a pinch, a defensive tool. The scopes can be removed and reinstalled without loosing zero(I've already T&Eed this system and it works). It's going to end up similar to Jim Brockmans "Premier Practical rifle", but better, and without the 4 year wait.

As a side note, what's the concensus on stainless vs. Carbon steel and harsh conditions/hard use?

Thanks for everyone's input thus far, I appreciate it.

As a relatively new Empire Rifles owner, let me chime in.

First of all, I don't think Empire Rifles are necessarily losing re-sale value...I just think there's a bunch of people liquidating their firearms still, and very few people ready/willing/able to comfortably sink a bunch of cash into what is, let's face it, a luxury item. I'm a Winchester collector and I can tell you factually that I can buy collector-quality lever actions for less money today than I could two years ago, but I don't think that means Winchesters are losing their value.

Best I can tell, the people with the biggest complaints about Empire Rifles are those who have been waiting for a long time to get one. And there seems to be a few of them around. From dealing with George Sandmann my opinion is that he's trying to do too much with too little, and the end result is quite often delays in getting what you're after.

My Empire was a consignment gun that I bought for right at 55 or 60% of what it should have cost. Sadly the original buyer needed cash before Christmas, and after several years of admiring Empire 98's I pounced on the opportunity. I don't have a fancy one in an exotic caliber- it's blackened stainless in a Kevlar stock, chambered for .30-'06- but it's a takedown and the only tough-as-nails controlled-round-feed takedown I'm aware of since the Winchester Custom Shop stopped selling the M70 TD (manufactured by HS Precision and only available in a couple of calibers). My investment is growing, though, as I've already commissioned another barrel assembly in 9.3x62; once I have that assembly I could theoretically sell every other hunting rifle I own and never need more than the .30-'06/9.3x62 combination.

I read the threads from the guy who had this recent fight with George, and I feel for him. But not much, because even with a $10k controlled-round-feed rifle there's room for operator error. And on a hunting trip of any kind there's no excuse for not checking things out beforehand. There may very well be defects with the rifle, but I'll bet most of his ire is from the long wait to get the gun in the first place...his other actions seem to indicate a lack of patience.

Yesterday I had two rounds through my Empire that didn't detonate- light primer strikes on some 200-grain handloads developed for another .30-'06 (I've got NM mule deer and MN white tail hunts this year...I guarantee I'll get way more than 200 rounds though this rifle before those hunts). I emailed George last night and told him I'd like them to look everything over when the action is up there to have the 9.3x62 assembly headspaced. George emailed back late last night, asked for a daytime phone number, and called me this morning wanting to know all of the details and when he could get the rifle in his shop. Pretty decent service considering that I'm a second-hand buyer.

The rifle functioned flawlessly with factory Federal 180-grain ammo and my 220-grain handloads. And last night was the first time I'd disassembled the bolt and wiped everything down. I truly believe the problem was with the loads and not the rifle, but I was pleased at the response I got.

The M70 is a great rifle. The Empire 98S is well beyond it as far as care of manufacture and features go, but in reality they're neat "little" things (stupid easy bolt disassembly, the best integral square bridge bases I've ever seen, cast-off built into the stock, etc.) coupled with great, guaranteed accuracy and the ability to have one built just exactly like you want it. Compared to an off-the-shelf M70 you probably won't kill 500% more animals or shoot groups 500% smaller. But if you have the opportunity to get one at a price that feels right, it's a great rifle.

I'm not going to get in the middle of this as I have never even seen an Empire rifle, but if I were going to hunt stuff that could hurt me, I'd be damn sure my equipment was in top shape and worked as expected before I put myself in harm's way.
I do have a lot of problems with companies --not just smiths-- that cannot give you a reasonable estimate on delivery.

For that sort of money, I'd sure think hard about putting my money into something from the House of Biesen. Talk to Roger, he builds them complete, can get you fixed up w/ a pre-64 Model 70 or a nice Mauser. And they really shoot. True that you'll have to wait while he builds one (unless you buy from the few he has for stock), but you'll really have something when you're done.

www.biesen.com

I live near Empire (or at least compared to most of you) and have been there. At some point, especially over on AR lots of these Mauser discussions are reduced to picking fly poop out of pepper. Empire initially consulted with the late Fred Wells on the 98S design. I imagine you'd have as much into having a m70 re-worked by someone like Mark Penrod or other top flights smiths as you would on the 98S. I call it an even match.

I will say I did not fire one of the rifles so cannot report on that. I can also say I have my CZ in the hands of Dennis Olson FWIW and he is now re-shaping the factory stock as it appears to have some pretty good wood underneath the awful factory goop.

At the end of the day, I'd consider Empire but I would certainly demand results in terms of the rifle's funtion.

AWWWW Grits!

I took a worn out Winchester M94 to a couple of local smiths for refinishing, the only one that would take the job had it sent out to Fords in Florida. The smith did tell me it would take upwards of 6 months to get it back from Fords. I was patient and waited but after 6 months I called the smith. He said Fords didn't return his call, so I called Fords. They were very pleasant and said there were 4 levers on the racks being worked on at the time. Two months later and still no rifle. I called Fords back and they were confused. All of the rifles that came in on that order was refinished and sent back. It seems my smith held on the rifle longer then he had told me. Fords put a "high quality" rush on my rifle. I gave it to the smith in February, Fords got it in May, and I got it back in October of '08. They did an outstanding job which made the wait worth while.

Now I currently have an M38 over at Shaw having a barrel fitted and bolt turned. They also got the rifle in February (but 2010) and I was told it should be back around September / October time frame.

I don't own or probably ever own an Empire but that's because of my income ;-) BUT if I were to hit the Powerball (yeah right), I'd probably stay in my own backyard and go with the following companies for the major parts:

Granite Mountain action & bottom metal
Timney trigger
Schneider Rifle Barrel
McMillan stock

HaYen

I just went over to the Empire Website and I'm sorry I just don't see how a gun that costs $8k - $10k is a hunting tool.

I'm sure there are some folks that have that kind of money but most folks with that kind of money have brains to boot.

I just don't see why someone would buy one of those rifle when you could get a nicer unit for a quarter of the price.

Honestly it's kind of disturbing.

Tom

I think he's referring to a poster on Accurate Reloading who uses the "handle" Fish 3014. Hid name is Don, and a great guy for sure.

They are not worth it to me, but i am sure they are to some guys.
Id rather work over a nice 1909 Argentine for a fraction of the cost.

Yep, good advice. I got burned by anotherfriggin crook named Greg Hein (Waffenfabrik Hein) a couple of years ago. I'm out 7 grand and never even saw the rifle. Obtained a judgment even a civil arrest warrant but the cops don't bother with those and nothing. I love Custom Rifles, but buyer beware. If I find one already built and it works I'll take it but as far as having another built, fugget about it. jorge

jorge that really sucks!

Yep. If I had the time, I'd fly out to WA state and deak with it, I'm also thinking about taking out a full page add in the local paper exposing this friggin crook. At least I'm "cured" of the custom rifle issue. jorge

I,too,have had one or two bad experiences,which is why I have generally refrained from having customs built,after having built several.And when I have had them done I have circled long and hard before proceeding.

I am particularly suspicious of shops that outsource the bulk of the work.

I'm sure you could make an argument that this leads to problems. You could also probably argue that it's no different than the general contractor who builds your house, and gets the most skilled/qualified people to contribute their expertise to the project.

I used to have a Winchester M70 Custom African Express. I think it is hands-down the finest bolt action rifle ever to wear the Winchester name. Winchester had only a very small part in building it though- they took the order, provided the action, and blued the gun. The barrel supplier (Krieger, in the case of my rifle) trued the action, fitted the barrel, and did the chambering & headspace. The barreled action was then sent to one of two custom makers to have the gorgeous stock with the Oberndorf "belly" surrounding the dropped magazine made, finished, bedded, and checkered. New England Custom Guns installed the sights and returned the rifle to Winchester for finishing & shipping.

The Custom African Express is a top-quality rifle, and to me the build process isn't different than what Empire is doing. (as a sidebar- even back in Winchester's heyday of building special-order rifles circa 1890 to 1910 or so, the vast majority of people who worked on them were outside contractors, overseen by Winchester's foremen)

Empire 98's are friggin' expensive...I really can't justify the price and without the opportunity to pick one up for about half of retail there's probably no way that I would own one. Avoiding them because of the cost is one thing, but I don't think their build process necessarily causes problems.

Lots of money that the vast majority couldn't ever think of spending on a rifle.

But break the figures down a little bit.

Just a shot in the dark, but say the average salary here is

40,000 a year, must of us do a little saving/trading for that 1,000.00 rifle which equals about .025 of our gross income

The next guy that makes 5 million a year, that 10,000 dollar rifle is only .002 percent of his gross income. If he were looking at something equivalent to what we would consider within our reach for a hunting rifle (.025) he'd be looking at a 125,000 rifle.

Long story longer, 10 grand is a drop in the bucket for lots of people in this day and age where the rich are getting a whole lot richer and the rest of us are essentially going backwards when you take inflation into account.

Can't speak to Empire arms but have a fair amount of experience buying and dealing with custom rifles.

Basically there seems to be two categories: The Smiths that build benchrest and target type rifles and the "Artisan" type that build high dollar speciality rifles usually wood stocked rifles that seem command a much higher price that would seem to represent the sum of thier components or even the amount of work to put them together.

Of the two types I have observed almost no issues with the BR and long range type smiths.

The hunting or artisan type smiths to me have almost always had issues whether it be long delays or perhaps never getting the rifle at all, and or substandard work on one part of the rifle. It may be stocked perfectly with meticulous bedding and finishing, but not feed worth a damn or shoot poorly. Get a rifle with these problems and there almost always be delays and frustration getting it sorted out. Many of these guys may be professional stock builders and farm the metal work out to another smith. That may or may not be the root of the problem.

I have seen some "boutique" rifles from high visibility companies that just had awfull work with regards to barreling, feeding,and chambering.

Bottom line though is you really have to do some homework, and check refrences before plunking any hard end $$ to any smith.

Lefty C

STAY AWAY FROM EMPIRE! A friend is still waiting (now years) for a relatively simple job. After dozens of emails and threats of lawsuits, he still doesn't have his rifle. Empire is running a Ponzi scheme, meaning that he is using the money from new orders to run keep running ads but only delivering sporadically. He still owes suppliers for contract work done years ago. If the economy heads south again, Empire will be down the tube!

Empire is only a contractor anyway. If you want to order custom, find a real gunmaker who actually has some skin in the game. Reto Buehler, for example, is completing a gun for my same friend and the whole deal is being concluded in a year, start to finish. References are too easy to come by these days and always a good idea.

Kifaru: that is exactly the same thing Hein did with me and a bunch of others he fleeced. jorge

jorge, I am so sorry to hear about your experiences with Hein... I am very lucky to have gotten my money back from them. Sure hope the creep gets his due!

Yep, you were indeeed fortunate. We have a judgment against him and a Bench Warrant, but the law favors the perpetrator. jorge

I too have taken a rippin' at the hands of a talented but unscrupulous fine gunmaker. This guy went bankrupt after stalling me or over two years (this was 18 years ago); he still haunts the industry, though isn't doing stockwork anymore that I know of. I know others who are spot-on honest.

At the top of the heap, IMO, is Roger Biesen. He's word is his bond, as it is with his dad. I'd deal with him again any time; am sure there are others. The real key is to be sure you know who you are dealing with, otherwise, do as JorgeI says and buy completed guns only.

Greg Hein.... don't get me started on that POS...


A well respected and proven rifle builder for Africa and DG to not overlook is AHR (American Hunting Rifles). Ed and Wayne have always delivered in excess of my expectations.

Both Hein and Empire asked me if I wanted to test their rifles and write about my experiences, and I told them yes. I sent George an FFL copy for my local dealer, and still haven't heard anything. I think that was 2003.

jim

AHR will get my money when the time comes for me to have a big bore bolt rifle built. Not only do they do fine work, but they have an active web presence as well on the Accurate Reloading forum which makes them both accessible, and more responsive to customer concerns and requests.

Greg Hein is a THIEF and a LIAR. I have a seven thousand dollar judgment against him and a bench warrant, yet the POS cops up there won't arrest his because it's only a "civil crime". I even tried to get the ATF and DA involved as I'm clearly not the only one that got [bleep] by this POS. I'm working on taking out a full page article in his hometown newspaper to let everyone know what a crook he is. jorge

No!

Empire charged my credit card $8500 in Nov 2006 and George will deliver neither rifle nor refund.

If I would have ordered a Searcy double rifle I would have spent 2k more but I would have a gun to shoot.

Thanks for nothing George.

Guys, get a Winchester or a CZ and have a smith build it up.

did you deny the charge to the cc company gonavy?

Its been 3 1/2 years, but I think I will give them a call

Welcome to the Campfire!

You are more patient than I...jim

Funny. I would too. I never got the impression that any problems would arise from Empire when I went to visit George Sandmann at his place.

Good advice.

That's what I have done, Bob. And if I tire of it someone will get a hell of a dependable rifle with a reshaped stock all courtesy of Dennis Olson.

JS: I have seen Empire Mausers......I chose to pass. I would rather have a rifle on a M70 worked over by someone like Penrod or Simillion myself,for that kind of money.. JMHO

I don't think I'm patient enough to ever order one, but I liked the first one enough to buy another new & unfired Empire this week for half the current list price (with a brand new, unmounted Leupold VX-3 scope thrown in). If those deals keep coming up in "usable" cartridges- I have no need for 40 or 50-caliber bolt guns- I'll keep acquiring them. So maybe that means to me they're worth half the $$$?

dose any one know where to buy scope rings for a Empire rifle? Sandmann kept my scope rings, I heard the company is closing.
www.empireriflesvictims.com

Empire Rifles is closing? Who did you hear that from?

Was looking over an Empire that was recently delivered. Metal work was ok. Wood, finish & checkering were disappointing. Communications over recent months can best be described as "going down hill", to point of true surprise when the rifle was delivered. Strongly suspect that all is not well at Empire. Tread carefully.

Unfortunately I just sold a spare pair of 1-inch Empire rings a couple of months ago...maybe if you keep your eyes open another pair will pop up somewhere.

Empire has suffered mightily from the economic downturn but I don't think they're going under. You'll notice they are now offering custom rifles on any action, as well as standard gunsmithing services. Not what I would typically expect from a custom gun maker but desperate times call for desperate measures, as they say.

I've been in communication fairly regularly with both George Sandmann and the gentleman who started the website you linked. It has to be tremendously frustrating to pay for a rifle and wait so long to have it delivered (then again, a D'Arcy Echols will cost you $32,000 with a 3-year wait...and it's built on a factory Winchester action) but I think it's going to get worked out for both parties.

I think you are confusing Darcy with Miller.

George has more problems then the economy. He is a liar and is dishonest as they come.

I don't think so. Download the "brochure & technical specs" for each of the rifles...$32k with wood stock, $15.5k with synthetic.

http://www.echolsrifles.com/#/home.html

Certainly not my experience with Empire, but as I've stated I haven't ordered any rifles from them directly...my dealings in buying a consignment rifle and having another barrel assembly made for my takedown must have been better than your experience with them.

Must have and I am not the only one that feels that way.

WOW! That's got to be a real bummer, shooting at something that may eat or stomp you with a high end rifle that won't function.

I like perfection, too. But function has to be first and foremost with any hunting rifle, especially when hunting dangerous game.

From the lower end, I'd go with a pre 64 M-70, or an FN M-70. Another option, a tuned CZ. Next up the food chain, a Dakota or an Ed Brown with Ed's control feed proprietary action. Then to custom rifles, probably using a pre-64, Dakota, Mauser or similar action.

For that kinda money, one should be able to have a super rifle and not have to worry about being eaten or trampled...

I think some of these "high end" guys are more salesmen than craftsmen. Roy Weatherby was a super salesman, but he could back it up with some pretty good rifles. Rare combo, IMHO. At least you don't hear of Roy's rifles not going bang...

DF

There is presently a thread over on AR about this very item. The owner of Empire has even gotten in on the discussion a couple of times and rather than really deal with it he has typed up some fluff answers. I've been to his place and while the merchandise looks appealing to my eye I would not do business with him at this point. Too many bad stories and not enough good ones.

Back to the Model 70 I guess.