I had my '06 Titanium out for only the second time this morning shooting some loads that previously showed some promise.

I brought 18 rounds with me, of 165 Accubonds in front of 58 grains of H4350. The first three groups are those on the bottom of the target. I shot them slowly allowing the barrel to cool between shots, and was NOT impressed with what I got. I shot these groups with my left hand laying between the bolt and the scope in my normal (albeit somewhat unsafe position), preferred hold style.

In desperation, I shot the next three groups...the ones on the top row... with my left hand squeezing the forend firmly...ala the style favored by many LW rifle shooters on the campfire.

The results were both consistent and startling. This site has once again paid off for me.

Good to know. I need to try this. I'm only shooting lightweight rifles now and what you've shared makes good sense.

I've heard this works. Haven't tried it myself. Thanks for sharing.

Interesting topic.

I shoot off of a soft towel over a commercial front rest most of the time. I was at the range again today.

One rifle is an old Brno 21H 7-57. It's worn and shows normal accuracy. It put 2 Berger VLD's into 1.5" at 100 yds from a cold fouled barrel and then 2 into 4"at 200yds with the warm barrel.

I put it aside and shot other rifles.

Later I shot it "hand held". In other words with my left hand holding the forend and that wrist on the bag with my right hand touching the rear bag.

It put 2 shots touching each other at 100 yds and it was sighted in!

This is also the best, maybe only, way to shoot the bigs as well.

With decent form holding the forend is not neccesarliy a hindrance to good accuracy. Big ame hunters are looking for or caring about differences of 1/10 of an inch in group size.

Is your hand between the rest and the forend? Are you pulling downward?
Thanks

The wider my stance or grip on the rifles, the better the groups.

For sure its the best way to handle heavy recoil.

I may look at my past records where the rifle was shot "hand held" and see if they are better or not.

Also there is the way I aim "hand held". Its more like off hand and not shooting to just the same mark.

Later.

Shoot it with the same grip you will use shooting at critters.

I think the extra layers of duct tape made the difference on the top row.

I normally rest my left hand atop the scope or barrel ahead of the scope.

Yeah, yeah...I have a love affair with duct tape.

My left hand was just behind the forward rest...just slightly up against it acually...which placed it just in front of the recoil lug a couple of inches.

It never occured to me to reach in FRONT of the forward rest. Hell,...that might have cut the groups down ever more.

"Shoot it with the same grip you will use shooting at critters."...I'll be shooting it just as I did in the top row of the targets, because that's how the rifle told me I HAD to shoot it partner.

Dave

I'm sure you know this but the utmost important rule is to never let the sling stud contact the bag in recoil.

I really can't see draping a hand over the top of the scope/barrel being good for groups.

iddave,

I've found the same thing when shooting my 700 MR. Firmly gripping the fore end did wonders for my groups. Finding a powder it liked didn't hurt, either...

I'm guessing you'll fell some critters with your setup. Be sure to post pics of dead stuff!

FC

It took a while before I realized just how much more consistant my hold had to be with the lightweight Ti. Much more so than the heavier rifles. Where the forearm is positioned on the front rest is crucial too. I try to keep it just behind the front of the scope & hold a bit more pressure to keep the front from jumping.

Your groups seem to show that a tighter hold beats the looser hold that many heavier rifles tolerate. Good post. It reminds me to bear down a bit on the Ti! A lighter trigger pull on the lightweights helps a good deal, as well.

Matches my experience with my Montana.

Agreed MM. Holding on to the scope while shooting a rifle is a new one for me... Don't see how adding 5-10 lbs of weight on top of the rifle is going to help it shoot better.

If I've got to hold my tongue just right and turn into a contortionist to make a rifle shoot decent groups off of a bench, I'll just go back to using a bow full time. I like rifles that shoot consistently from a variety of positions.

Don't really give a toot what it does off of a bench, how it's gonna shoot when aiming at breathing critters in multiple field positions is my concern.

Personally, I don't care to waste my time with temperamental rifles.

YMMV.

Mathman: I second that one. I own a bull barreled Anschutz 22LR that I use on ground squirrels. A tack driver at 50 yds. The landowner I hunt with wanted to give it a try on paper, and it was all over the place (like 2 1/2 to 3 inches). His style is a firm forearm/barrel grip normally used on his banded barrel 10/22 and back in his service days on a Springfield and M1. I asked him to turn loose of the barrel and it tightened right up. I normally have the trigger hand on the grip, and my off hand and forward rest as far forward as possible. Most of my units are light sporters, and groups are best when I really get a grip on them and hold them down.

On a similar note, I often see the TV pros resting their barrels on shooting sticks or some other forward support. Quite possibly those clips are reenactment shots pasted in to complete the program, but I can't see that being effective on some of the long shots they take.

The only group I see using barrel rests is the BPCR folks shooting off of sticks or a bench. They have a couple of techniques for identifying a harmonic sweet spot along the barrel that eliminates accuracy effects. I run a Shiloh, and it's the only unit I fire with anything touching the barrel.

I use my left hand to squeeze the bunny bag under the rear of the stock to adjust elevation . Your front rest should be about half way between the trigger guard and the end of the stock to avoid putting pressure on the barrel from stock flex . Especially with the tupperware stocks on the more inexpencive ( Cheap ) Savages and such !

The good news, seems the point of impact didn't change with changing of positions.

I don't like having to modify my shooting technique (no matter how much you think it sucks) either, but life is a series of compromises isn't it?

In this case, I believe a 5.25 lb 30-06 shooting 165 ABs into relatively small groups is worthy of holding onto the forend.

Then again, I'm hunting the Salmon River breaks which is steeper country than most people will ever lay eyes on much less hunt.

It's not like the rifle is making me shoot it upside down boys. I think, "hold my tongue just right and turn into a contortionist" MAY be a bit of an exaggeration?

When JB uses a "folded soft towel" under the forend for load development with light rifles is he wasting his time also? Good grief some of you take things to the most finite degree.

All rifles are not created equal and while I love how non-"tempermental" some rifles I've owned have shot, I'm certainly not excited to drag them around the mountains of Idaho in pursuit of game.

In the field you'd be holding the forend, right?

I've had good luck with 3 Montana's putting a little pressure over the scope with my left hand shooting off bags. I use this method for sighting and finding what the gun likes. When I move to shooting into field positions, holding the forend firmly gives me the same result and same POI. FWIW

Indeed I will.

That's why I see it as a natural testing hold too.

I used the Steelhead method this time (even though I was one of the guys that posted plenty on the shooting of LWs)

I took a box of ammo and shot clay pigeons prone with a Brownells Latigo sling at 400 yards using the last dot in my Leupold LR 2-7x33. I shot one 5 shot group on a pigeon that was about 7"

I'm ready for Montana rifle season now

Thanks for the report and pics Dave.

While I don't have any rifles as light as a ti, I have found with my two 7 pounders that things are a bit more critical with the hold when at the bench.

I float all of my barrels, so grip location has no effect on stock/barrel contact. Lastly, I would not want to be seen carrying a tupper ware stock.

The less you interact with a rifle the better it will shoot. Like it, or not, we are the weak link.

I grip the forearm on my '06 Ti also, if not my groups suffer.

Hold that forend. Food for thought.

http://www.ballisticstudies.com/Resources/Articles/Hold+that+Forend.html

I'm really not sure I'd agree with that, thinking the technique might be applicable here and there. Fella below is named Jack Odor and he's on the way to cleaning house on a 20 shot 200 yard match. In the particular competition he is engaged in the over barrel hold with about 3-5# of down pressure is quite common.

I'll give you a bajillion dollars for the '06 T.i.

Sadly Tanner, I sold it already. The good news is that it was sold to fund the "pimping" of an even cooler stick.

Dave

Generally I agree, but I have a Kimber .22 Classic that shoots okay with a light hold, yet groups shrink to one-hole clusters if I load my shoulder into the buttplate, get a solid cheek weld, and firmly grip the foreend right behind the front bag. "Tight" is probably not the right word, but definitely firm and solid. Near-tight, perhaps. YMMV, of course.

This hasn't been covered yet but something I see with light rifles is the movement from the firing pin dropping. It sounds petty but take a light rifle on a light rest and center on your poa and dry fire. Depending on your rest, rifle weight, and force of your pin dropping you can see when it clicks there is movement and this is obviously happening before the bullet has exited the barrel. Unlike the front stud contacting the bag during recoil bc that can be argued whether or not the bullet has left the muzzle yet during recoil. It's a small thing but also supports the firm grip theory as opposed to light hold or esp free recoil. Obviously this goes out the window when your rig starts putting on pounds but its just something I noticed with a high magnification scope on an ultra light rifle. I stick a leupy 6.5-20 or something similar I have laying around on a light mtn rifle sometimes for load development while I'm waiting on the right one. Then when I find my load or loads I load up a pile or so, switch out scopes, line it in, maybe do a little longer distance shooting and then go kill stuff.

Good info here. Thanks for sharing. The comparison photo was pretty telling!

Eric

My experience with my Ti has been the same accept I run 57.5 of H4350. If I do not hold under the forarm or on top the scope groups open up and it jumps.

I've learned to tighten up ones shooting, I personally spend a lot of time here and there, shooting 100 rounds of 22 LR ammo, from either a CZ 452 or a 94/22., from various shooting positions, off hand or field style.. at targets ( ran off the internet) at 100 yds...

I'll pick up two boxes of bulk ammo and then over a 2 week period, will shoot them up, in bouts of 100 rounds per day...

I shoot 10 shot volleys from various positions...

what I am rewarded with, is after shooting the two boxes of ammo, it is amazing how much tighter the patterns are...

spending time with a 22 LR is one of the best things one can do to keep your eye and trigger finger synchronized....

do the same at times with a 223, with bullets loaded from 2200 to 2500 fps using Blue Dot powder...

don't know about you guys, but without practice I really suck...

when I practice, I still suck at times.. just not as much..

I have seen the need for both a firm grip on the forearm and consistent bench technique with the three Kimbers I've owned. All were wood stocked guns. Made big difference in group sizes.