Which of these two styles would be ideal for forest hunting? Or would a conventionally-mounted scope in either fixed 4x or 1.5-5/2-7x variable work a bit better?
Typical yardage would occur between 25 and 50 yards, maybe 70-90 at tops.

Opinions?

I don't know if better is correct, but I'd love to have a rifle with irons only on it. Very simple, light, quick to shoot, nothing to fog or really have issues with. If my max in an area was 90, it'd have irons only on it.

My eyes being what they are, I have found nothing that compares to a Leupold 1.5-5.

An occasional issue I've run into with a forward mounted scout scope was glare/reflection off the occular lense when the sun was low in the sky during last light. At times, this has killed any low light ability, but I'd also have a hard time picking up iron sights under the same conditions. If looking for better low light ability at those close ranges, I'd lean towards a conventional mounted low power scope with a good field of view and a bold reticle.

If used during good light where picking up iron sights was no issue, pick your poison.

Best

Receiver [peep] sight with large aperture mounted far astern with a large blade or fiber optic front sight.

I'd run a traditionally mounted scope over a scout setup everyday of the week and twice on Tuesday.

Assuming some light, I have no issues running an aperture either.

The fiber optic open sights are pretty good in low light at woods ranges if your eyesight is good. An aperture rear with a fiber optic or flat faced ivory bead up front is likewise quite effective. Neither is as good as a low power scope when the light gets really dim. I've been happy with a conventionally mounted, fixed 2.5x scope in the woods. Never tried a scout scope so can't comment.

I hunt in VT, CT, NY and sometimes Maine.

In VT they always had a 3" spike horn rule and now the deer must have a fork horn!

A 4X worked there for years and now most of my rifles have variables set at about 4X.

There is no way I would want to hunt with a scout scope or irons unless forced to.

Most of my shooting is at the range and there I like even more magnification. A 2.5-8 is a nice scope. The best scope that I have in that range is a Kahles 2-7. The 2.5-8 Conquest is also superb and the 2.5-8 Leu. looks nice on a safe queen.

Though I have a Ruger Frontier which can use a conventionally mounted scope or the scout, I`d prefer the conventional method for your use.

Have both and use both, but a conventional 1.5x5 you mentioned or a conventional fixed 2.5x would do great for your purpose.

To me perfection is a conventionally mounted scope in QD mounts, as backup to the aperture rear sight. I could never cozy up to the "scout rifle" concept.

Scout scopes are pretty lousy in dim light, both because of the forward mounting and the low magnification.

One of the "secrets" to a bright scope is relatively short eye relief. The closer the scope to the eye, the less light from the sides will interfere with the view. If you want to prove this to yourself, tape a tube of light cardboard around the the rear eyepiece of a cheap scope, then look through it during low light. The view will be really bright!

Magnification also helps in dim light, essentially by getting us closer to the target.

I use iron sights a lot, and a wide aperture with a bright front sight (whether fiber-optic, white or bright metal) will allow accurate shooting in amazingly dim light. But range is limited. A scope of at least 6x is a LOT brighter than either the best irons or a scout scope.

I must also mention that I've killed running game at 10 yards with a 6x....

Forest hunting has a unique set of demands and fixed 6x optics have no role. A good variable is always the answer,unless it's a scout,then irons are the answer.

I run low X variables on my rifles, even in Alaska and the puckerbrush and 'wait a minute' thornbrush of Africa. A good scope set on 1.5x is fast and deadly in forests or deep cover. With a 32mm objective lens or thereabouts it will be easier and faster to use in poorlight as well. Irons are, for me, only to be used if a scope craps out.

VXIII 1.5 -5......Scout scopes ....no bueno.....for anything...

The 4.5-14x is far faster,more reliable and way more flexible.

I dunno...the longer tube on it would lead one to think it was more flexible...but neither one have any flex in them...rigid as hell....

Tube length is handy for allocating eye-relief when mounting,but as far as hard use goes I've far more faith in the 14x's mettle.

Exactly.



Righto again.

No dot sight,the best of both worlds?

At the ranges cited, "25 and 50 yards, maybe 70-90 at tops", good irons are great during good light.

For low light situations (morning, evening, dark overcast, etc., I still prefer a low power scope.

How soon we forget the leupold 3x that many begged for?

3min dot or PD if low light is a concern should work.








For those Long Range opportunities.

Shadow9,

What sights are used depends upon your eyes and how you hunt. Many hunters have more than one rifle in the vehicle and each of those might have 'irons' for a backup.

Much of my previous hunting for deer has been in Vermont where the rule was bucks only that had at least a 3" spike. I got many deer there back when others got nothing. I recall the VT success rate back tnen at about 20% or less.

Now today the rule there is just as or more difficult to identify a legal buck. Now it must be a forkhorn.

In order to see that spike behind an ear or to, today, identify a forkhorn I have found a scope at about 4X to be good for my eyes. There is very little time to idenify a legal buck when a deer is spotted. It seems, most often, that I am standing or stiting in the woods and a deer appears. Sometimes its easy to identify with my eyes howver the rifle scope confirms it.

There is no time, in my opionion, to use binoculars in the woods when a deer appears to me. The motion of reaching for the binocs and the waste of time would preclude getting a shot.

Now to each his own on this.

Here is a copy from part of the regulations: "Limit: One legal buck with at least one antler having two or
more points may be taken anywhere in the state." Vernont rules

As per your esteemed experience,what would you cite as the best 3" Spike scope and/or the best Forked-horn scope? Thank you.

Here is a pic of some of my game rifles. The third from the top is my 99F in .358 Win. This is my primary game rifle. It has been 100% reliable in every way in many states for the last 45 years.

On top is an old Brno 22F in 8-57 with a Kahles on it. Its due for some woods time as well. At the bottom is a MS .358 Win. with a 2.5-8 Conquest.

For my vision I like the 2-7 Kahles best at the moment.

However most were taken, over the decades, with a 4X Lyman All American.

There was a comment by Mule Deer that he got a running deer with a 6X. I am not comfortable with 6X on running deer. To each is own.

What scope have you been using for 45yrs? What was your favorite for Spikes and what change did you make for Forkies? I'll bet you have some great hunting stories and memories. Thanks!

While you can do some good work with a peep sight, it's something you have to stay in practice with. IMO, a 1.5x5 will take you where you want to go.
all that said, I've never figurd out any sort of advantage a scope halfway down your barrel gives you.

Savage - do you ever have any trouble with POI shift with those mannlicher stocks?
Would a lesser variety (CZ, for instance) have any issue with shift? I'm from New England as well,and quite aware of our strong temp shifts, and considering a new rifle...and the glass on top (hence the questions here)..

Those are very good questions and I see your point in that a slight POI shift would really be a big issues on little Spikes and Forked-horns.

I started with a 6X Lyman Wolverine in 1953 and can still see the blurr of does running by me up close!

When the All Americans came out I had some of the first ones in 4x.

Now there is a 2-7 Leu on that 99F.

What is your favorite Doe scope? Thanks,you are very wise.

I have not had that rifle long enough to confirm its zero however staying sighted in s very important to me.

In that woods shooting pinpoint accuracy has not been necessary most of the time. I did get one buck however in PA at about or over 200 yds. with the 99.

Was the PA Buck a Spike or Fork? Thanks.

Come on Larry. You have been cool up to now!

Whats your favorite doe scope?

I don't hunt does however a buck scope might do?

Believe me, I've tried to levitate while hunting. So far standing and sitting is the best I can do.

As far as not being able to use binocs, try to catch sight of them before they are on top of you. Just a suggestion.

Addition: "I am standing or stiting in the woods": Perhaps I missed the true meaning. The one does make the use of binocs much more difficult. Then again I normally use a log, so I think I could pull it off.

Why were you pointing your rifle at Does then? Though I think it an Eastern trait to stumble around with one in the spout,throwing the muzzle at everything that moves. Thanks.

If I was glassing around ok on a mixed woods and field however if a deer comes into view I want the scope on it. I think it might see me move while I put the binocs. down and reach for the rifle.

You must really have an impressive Trophy Collection,given all of your years afield and your keen insight into equipment and animal behavior. How big is your biggest Buck,from all those you have to choose from? Thanks.

OK,

Thats it Larry. Thats enough of you. Your going back on ignore.

You can pretend if you like,should it paint a prettier picture. Thanks.

It might. Then again knowing when and when not is an acquired habit.

Imagination is an acquired habit and she has Mastered same,though solely by default. Bless her heart.

In defense of the scout scope. Some rifles will not permit a conventionally mounted scope over the action. I have tried offset mounts and did not like them, due to no cheek-weld, and poor asthetics.

Red-dot sights are one alternative. The dot is easily seen, but the field of view around the dot is dimmer than a scout scope. They work well in bright light, if you don't need any magnification. I enjoy mine for plinking.

Ghost ring rear sights with a prominent front sight are fast, rugged, light-weight and work well on my brush-guns.

I have four rifles set up with scout scopes. Three are out of necessity, if I wanted them scoped. One is optional in Leupold quick release lever rings on an all-weather Marlin 30-30 that I carry with my hand around the action. The scope is out of the way and light-weight.

I like using scout scopes once I got used to them. The main advantages: fast on target with both eyes open. Some magnification. Light-weight and rugged. For some rifles in some applications they work very well.

If you think Scouts are fast,real speed of acquisition would snap you. Wow.

..........I`ll be happy volunteer to be the scout scope your dreams Boxer aka Big Schit-stick.

I`ll make sure that you get a real good head snappin!

Your imagination is taking you places.








Again.

...Yep! and my imagination will always make very short work of you.

You are too busy making short work of your faculties on accident,to ever entertain reality. Bless you heart.

what he said...

...so, would New England weather do hell on a Mannlicher stock?

..and by the looks of it, going solid iron-sights, hi-vis, with investment in Warne QD's attached to a 2-7x32 Leup VX-II series, or a 4x33 FX-II Ultralight. Or, the Burris scopes have a nice slender eyepiece, which would fit grandly around the bolt.

Rifle is a Steyr Scout at the moment, with the 2.5X28 Scout scope (eh...), and considering selling for a CZ 550 FS in 6.5x55SE, and using the rest of the cash to upgrade the irons (maybe) or add on said scope setup. Consideration is in response to warp-risk of the fullstock, as the Scout is near weatherproof, but I'd be upset seeing treebranches leave their marks on the barrel and stock (can/does happen with others I've seen). Sure, the CZ has a pretty stock that many wouldn't like to see branch scratches in, but those can and will be buffed out. Plus, it's why I'm going a CZ and NOT a Steyr Classic/Sako fullstock/etc...

I grew up shooting open sights so they are much more "natural" to me when the shooting is fast.

Back when I was younger the prefered method of deer hunting in East Texas was with dogs. The shooting tended to be very close and very quick. Most chose to hunt with shotguns and buckshot, which were very effective at ranges of 20-50 yards. However, even then I found a I prefered a rifle as it tended to leave a better blood trail and allowed shots over 50 yards (about where buckshot is getting "iffy").

Since we normally sat on stands in the morning and evening, and ran the dogs during the day....a scope was welcome at times. The solution (without carrying two different rifles) was a low power scope (1.5-4.5x) mounted in the old Weaver swing-mounts. They held zero very well and could be "swung" out of the way when the open sights were wanted.

Even in really thick brush I've found the low-power scope is better due to the ease of finding small openings to shoot through and (as others have mentioned) getting a better look at the deer.

The Weaver swing mounts might be your solution. I often carry my rifles with the scope swung to the side when slipping through the woods. This makes the open sights available if a deer boils up underfoot, but if the deer is not running full out you have plenty of time to swing the scope into place for the shot.

I've tried the scout set-ups and found them to be a very poor choice. They unbalance a rifle, give a poor field of view and cut light transmission......as well as look ugly as sin!

I am firmly convinced that the scout scope idea was created by Jeff Cooper to feed his ego and draw attention to himself with no other redeeming values.

Shadow,

In 58 years of hunting in all kinds of weather I have never needed or used irons because a scope failed. If a scope failed I would just walk out of the woods and get another rifle out of the car.

It rained the whole weekend in VT in a recent season. I used a Kimber Montana which has no irons. It had a Leupold scope on it. It did just fine.

Anyways I had another rifle in the car.

I think you are making too much worry over irons. I never use them for rifle hunting ever. Never need to. I use irons on the Woodsman!

Here are some of my wet weather rifles. No irons!

Savage99.

Your post is offensive. I would appreciate it if you would remove it immediately. There are women and children on this site.

Thank you

What ? Where ?

I believe that was a " turnabout is fair play" post...


BTW John Moses, I read what you said about capsicum, my cloaca etc. on another thread.....

Hurt my feeler....

Neither system would be ideal , because of their poor light gathering abilities a Traditionaly mounted scope with a pivot mount or QD type rings would be ideal . As much as it pains me to say it , see through mounts would even be preferable !

Don't know what that stuff is, but I'm studying up on it.

Keep extra rifles in car, if one is not right walk the 50 yards back and change rifles................got it

Bring a grenade launcher. Don't really need any sights, just get it in the general area.

Does 24HC have a "Like" button? :P

Did you get a Spike or a Forked-horn that weekend that it rained? Distance and conditions of the shot(s)? It sounds like you have much experience in trying conditions,with walking back and forth to the car so much. Is the terrain rugged too? Thanks.

Why don't you test this?


Or this? Target 100m Aimpoint 9000, Bar 300WM

Or the small one MicroH1?Triple in driven hunt, wood cover, 9,3x62 Markel SR1


Red dots are good and choosen for military ops they will serve you good too! In woods, plains, from zero to 200m, on moving game or standing one. They are no scope for sure but when eye relief gone sour after 45 they are even better than gost ring. I use both...

I hear good things about dots. Their reticle subtension does not always sound sweet however. 4MOA is getting to be too much of a good thing and then some. Hear good things about 1MOA dots though.

The smallest you can have on Aimpoints is 2 moa but not on all models. For driven hunt where most shots are inside 100m, most of time 50m, 4 moa is OK. For a more wide range of application i use 2moa with lot of success. In deep woods 4moa can be ok too because of short distances where shots are taken. The Leupold Prismatic(new versions 2011) is real good too.

As per prior mention,I hear good things about 1MOA reticles.

Depends on the conditions and the style you prefer.
Irons allow unlimited field of view and are dead nuts reliable unlike many scopes. With the exception of the fiber optic front sights, they can take alot of knocking around.
The Scout Scope gives you the same unlimited field of view because you can look around the scope as well as through it. It works better, that means you can see the target better than you can with irons. So for a guy that wants to save weight, needs a very rugged, reliable setup, and doesn't require much low light performance, either the Scout Scope or irons work well at those ranges.
All that said, a small 1-5X20 class scope has it all over both for seeing the target better especially in bad light. The better ones, like Leupold's 1.5-5X20, VX3 are quite reliable as well. So much so that there is apparently no practical difference there. E

SCOUT SCOPE CONCEPT SUCKS.

Scope for hunting bucks that need quick identification or low light, Ghost rings work well for meat.

Well, I agree with you, but what possessed you to revive a nearly 10 year old thread?

I use conventionally mounted scopes more than scout scopes, aperture sights or open sights. Even so, I find I like all of them forsome uses.

Except for a 92 in .357 all my scout scopes are on shotguns, Ithaca Deerslayers specifically. I prefer them to other sights for use an a shotgun used with slugs and shot out of the same barrel. They are the easiest for me of the options to wingshoot with. We use them after we fill our deer/elk controlled tags to hunt bear, grouse and varmints in our Eastern Oregon area.

I have found the 2.5 X is not as powerful as I would like for doe hunting. Their are lots of small bucks in with the does and you hae to be careful to avoid taking one. I use a 1.5-4x Leupold now.

I am trying a 2-7 Burris scout on an 18.7" barreled Ruger Scout rifle. It is OK but I am going to switch to an XS Rail so I can use a conventionally mounted scope, probably a 2.5-8x36 Leupold. This will be a nice setup for using irons when I would like. I do want to get the front blade modified so it is more visible in low light.

I still hunt with aperture sights when situations allow. I never owned a scope until I was 27 (1974) so I find them easy to use. The biggest problem is getting a good set of sights together for low light. My .250 Savage TD has a Lyman tang peep with a flip out aperture to go to a ghost ring. The front bead is ivory. This works as well as anything I have found. Another option is the aperture rear on my 98 Mauser in 35 Whelen. I use it with a sourdough front post. I have the same front post on a couple of other rifles.

Down side to scout scopes is glair reflection in the evenings as said. You can solve that problem with a rear shade. (yeah, who's got one of those? I came by mine by accident. The rubber eye piece off one of those com-block sniper scopes. I cut the flared eye cup off it and would carry it in my pocket when hunting with a scout scoped rifle. In the evenings I would slip it on if needed.

Folks will say with modern low power scopes, the scout scope isn't needed. They're right if you only look at it from an optical standpoint. To me, the greatest thing about a forward mounted scope is being able to grasp the receiver, wrapping my hand around it to carry it, as opposed to cradling it like a traditional scope. (almost never use a sling to carry a rifle)


As far as dots, I've shot 1" 100 yard groups with a 4 MOA dot (with a .50 Beowulf AR of all things), and 8" steel out to 400 yards with one, 5.56 (never tried farther) So it's not necessarily too big. I have two scout scoped rifles and keep kicking around the idea of an Aimpoint on one, but the price (vs how often I'll use it) and a worsening astigmatism keeps me away.

Tried a 2.75 scout on a ML one season. Found out it was no instrument for telling hide from dried grass, even at about 100 yards. Experiment over. Worked okay at the range, in good light, on distinct targets.

If red dots aren't for you, a prism sight might be an option. They can be focused, and don't tint the view like red dots. I'm playing with one for plinking on a .22, but in the field I want some Xs on tap, except maybe very close up. Even then, a low-X scope on a well-fitting rifle is very fast, and for me eliminates the need to wear PITA glasses while hunting, at least until I run out of eyepiece threads.



A good question. Just start a new one.

I never warmed up to the scout scope concept, but I do have a few peep sighted rifles. I shoot better on paper with a scope and shoot better with a peep sight then a barrel mounted sight. I also believe regular iron sights are easier see to use in real low light then a peep sight, but a scope is best.

I have a Leupold 1.5-5x20 with the German #4 reticle and I can't really see where it would slow me down in the brush as it is fast with lots of eye relief and light weight.

I haven't warmed to scout scopes, for reasons already set out above. I find them slow and unhandy, and I see no redeeming features other than perhaps for those rifles which cannot have a scope mounted over the receiver. I've tried red dots too, but didn't like them much either.

I think that a conventional low-magnification scope (such as a 1.5 -6x or 4x, or perhaps a 2 - 7x) which is located so your eye is directly in line as you mount the rifle is the best option for the type of shooting described by the OP, for everything except rain. It is definitely better than peep or barrel mounted options for low light, and faster too - and I grew up with open sights. I have shot literally truckloads of running critters with such scopes, sometimes several one after another in quick succession. I've shot trap from gun down and flushed birds with the shotgun barrel of scoped combo and drilling too, using 1 1/2x on 1 1/2 - 6x or 1 1/2 - 5x scopes.

In the rain though I prefer a ghost ring, or even an open rear sight, and I think the best of both worlds is a hand-detachable scope with zeroed back-up sights, so you can take the scope off if it starts to rain or if you have a fall or other reason to doubt your scope.

Open sights aren't all equal either. I prefer the ghost ring, but if I'm going to use open sights I prefer a big square notch rear and square post front. I'm coming around to fibre-optic fronts too, as a result of using them on my bow, but I still have some doubts about their durability. I'm not a fan of bead fronts, especially rounded ones (particularly due to their tendency to shoot away from the light), and I wouldn't give you thank you for a buckhorn or semi-buckhorn rear - a truly rubbish idea IMHO.

Instead of listening to people like Boxer and Savage_99 why don't you go to www.Scoutrifle.org. Maybe they can help you out. Be Well, Rustyzipper.

"I am trying a 2-7 Burris scout on an 18.7" barreled Ruger Scout rifle. It is OK but I am going to switch to an XS Rail so I can use a conventionally mounted scope, probably a 2.5-8x36 Leupold. This will be a nice setup for using irons when I would like. I do want to get the front blade modified so it is more visible in low light."

DB...I have the same rifle...and same scope. Would be still using the Burris 2-7 SCOUT but have a cataract in the right eye right now that won't let me focus the crosshair correctly so I had to go to a conventional scope.

One thing you may find with the XS Scout Rail is that it places the scope line of sight higher than you would like so you will not get a natural cheek weld or have to use a strap on riser.. You will have to use higher rings to have the objective bell clear the base also... I hated to do it but simply pulled the Scout base off and use a set of conventional rings on the receiver. For backup I just carry a NECG Receiver Sight all pre-sighted in in case the scope fails.

Bob

Or, if you don't want a ghost ring/peep that blocks much of your field of view, get a Burris Weaver to Ruger adapter and an X/S Low Weaver Back-up Ghost ring sight and make one of these. RJ

I had a Scout rifle built once upon a time and hunted with nothing else for many years. During the build I exchanged letters with Jeff Cooper, who insisted that it be built to his specs, and with Finn Aagaard, who reminded me that that when Cooper had a Scout built for his daughter, Lindy, it was a 30-06 on a 1903 action that did not make weight.

The idea of the low-powered, forward-mounted optic is sound, which is why we used to see red-dot sights coupled with magnifiers on M-4 carbines in the hands of elite military units. But contrary to Cooper, more magnification can be useful at times, which is why so many of those units are replacing their sight/magnifier combinations with low-powered variables (LPV) that have illuminated reticles.

After my Scout years, I prefer a short, light rifle with a 4x scope mounted over the receiver. 4x seems to be going the way of the buffalo so I’m looking for LPVs to replace the ones I have.

Peeps are nice if the light is good but I hunt in thick brush and wet weather when the light is usually bad. Glass gives me an extra 45 minutes at each end of the day, so I’m pretty much done with peeps.


Okie John

I have a Steyr Scout and other Scout rifles in process. I believe in ghost ring sight for the rear and flat top post in front. Then the forward Scout Scope in QD rings. It has worked for quite a while for me. The short length of pull and the light weight makes it handle and carry well. I carry the gun more than I shoot it. It balances in the middle similar to a 336 Marlin so carries with one hand in the middle. Check out the Scout Rifle.org you can read and lurk without joining if you wish. Lots of experience there. There are threads there which will answer your question and give you some guidance. Be Well, Rustyzipper.

This is a trait of some rifles that I also like. It is one big reason I like peeps/ghost rings and rear mounted aimpoint T1 type mini red dots. RJ

Low power scopes are fine, but you might be surprised how handy a 3-9x is in the woods. 9x helps a lot with spotting & judging antlers. And 3x isn't too much at a couple feet either. I have a 2-7x that I use a lot too. I like it.

Low power scope with dot.
Aimpoint
Peep sight with fiber optic front.

In that order.

I am glad this thread was revived. I will look at the Scout rifle forum.
I like the Scout Scope, I use them on several rifles and the Burris 2 x 7 is the best of the bunch in my situation.
A reciever mounted scope has limitations too, I have found the scout scope is allows a short length of pull, speedy access to the reciever, I like carrying the rifle with my hand around the reciever. Also, in my case, with a levergun, easy access to the external hammer.
My .270 win, sheep rifle, saddle rifle is one of them.

How many centerfire rounds have you shot under a properly mounted scout scope?

Did Johnny Loco say something? I won't toggle it with his history of showing his ................Knowledge. Be Well, Rustyzipper.