My Grandson is 8 and getting the bug to go whitetail hunting. Most of the ranges should be well under 100 yards. He took the hunter safety course last Saturday.

I already have a Marlin 1894C and reload for 357. I will probably just let him use it, but I'm thinking ahead toward his own gun, and I think a low power scope or red dot would be much easier for him to hit with. I base this on our experience this morning when we were shooting 22s. First he shot my Marlin 1897T (like a 39M only with a 20" octagon barrel)with peep sights. 10 shots were spread over about 5" at 25 yards. Next he shot my CZ 542 with a scope set at 4X and shot a 1.3" 5 shot group at the same 25 yards. The CZ also has a much nicer trigger than the Marlin.

I'm thinking of the CZ 527 Carbine in 7.62X39 or the Ruger 77-357. I'm leaning to the Ruger since it is stainless/synthetic and I already load for 357, but I'm wondering about accuracy and trigger compared to the CZ. Thanks in advance for your opinions.

no experience to make that call, but I certainly agree that a red dot or scope is a far better choice for a brand new hunter than irons.

they've already got enough stress going shooting that first deer, and enough new things to learn and keep track of all at once without adding the complications of holding a good sight picture as well.

Either one would probably be a good choice for the grandson.

But as he grows, he`ll more than likely expand his hunting distances beyond the capabilities of the 357 and want a longer ranged round. That`s just a likely guess and if so then he`ll want another rifle.

The Ruger 77-357 carbine is very good for what it is, but is range limited. The 7.62x39 would stretch the distances out for any future longer ranged hunting.

Between the two choices you give, the 7.62 imo is the better choice for future use.

But then again, determine what is the best for him to handle and use.

I have one of the CZs in 7.62 Russian so I may be a little biased but do have a 1894 in 357 too.

The CZ will have a greater range and will probably be more accurate than the 357. Currently with the 7.62 running about .20 to .25 cents a round for the Russian imported stuff it is probably cheaper and easier than loading for the 357. My CZ loves the Wolf 154gr SP. The little CZs are just so light and handy and neatly designed.

With that said a 357 rifle is just about as much fun as it gets too.

My freind's 12 year old girl took two nice bears last sping with a CZ 7.62 carbine...it worked. I'll get his load if needed.

Good points!

I think I have a scope base for the Marlin around here somewhere, and I know I've got a red dot not doing anything. I guess the sensible thing would be to mount that and let him use it for awhile, and then if he continues to show interest, a 243, 260 or even 7-08 would be a more versatile choice. He's already 100 pounds, so it won't be long!

Given only the two choices (why?), the 7.62X39 is by far the better deer killer, while having low recoil and being pretty cheap to shoot. The CZ would be an excellent choice w/ iron sights plus a simple scope in tip-off or Q/D mounts.

For plinking, and just learning to shoot well, get him a .22lr.

One of the pistoleers I compete with has the CZ 762 x 39 and loves it. Should be good to 175 yds. or so and has enough power in case of a less than perfect shot whereas the 357 may be marginal past 100 yds. Just my opinion.Lots of affordable entry level rifles out there. Don't forget lots of 243 and 7mm08 in youth guns. Maybe have him hunt a yr with your 357 and if he grows enough he'll fit into some of the other entry level youth guns.afish4570

7mm-08 or 243 For years I've recommended the 6.5x55 Swede for a young hunters first gun but the 7mm/08 rates right up there with the Swede. Mild recoil on both won't scare a young hunter from the recoil.

I LIKE the 357/rifle trim. 158s at 2050mv will reach 150 yds and drop deer. Lil Gun.....

Trigger? Ruger - add a ballpoint pen spring and maybe a little hone, quick 2.5# trigger Good locktime and should be 1-2 MOA accurate!

2.5 or 4x scope. A 357 btw has less powder than the Rusky round or 243/7-08........SOOOOO will be much less BOOM/Blast and thrust on your kids end.

Just my .02.

I'm partial to the 7.62x39 myself. I have one of the Rem 799 that I picked up used.

For deer/ hogs/ yotes under 200 yards its my favorite rifle. Good accuracy, decent rigger and cheap to feed.

I've taken several deer/hogs with both the Remington and Winchester loads. At one hundred yards the 2 loads are same same for elevation and 4 clicks for windage.

Currently running a K6 Weaver, but would like the K4 just as well.

Same here with the Rem 799. In my terrain where there are no wide open areas, just woods and swamp, the 7.62x39 works fine. Also a heck of alot of fun to take to the range with cheap ammo and have at it. I put a Redfield 2x7 on mine.

My wife uses a SKS and cheap Wolf 122gr. HP's for years for deer. Hardly ever seen one move out of it's tracks, I just shake my head.

IMHO if you were starting from scratch then I would go with the cz no question as it should be a much better deer collector than a 357 and would stretch the range over the 357 as he becomes more proficient. But you already have a 357 so I would probably use that for 2-3 years and then purchase him a rifle that he can use for the rest of his life such as a 243, 257 Roberts or maybe the 7mm-08 mentioned earlier. If I wanted to scope the 357 I would probably look to one of the little 1-3 variables that weaver makes and at low power the sight wobble should not be too bad.

Thanks to all of you. After thinking it over, I think this suggestion is the one I'll go with. My safe is already overflowing and I suspect if I bought another one now, no matter how perfect for an 8 year old, it would end up just sitting there in a couple of years when he outgrows it. And, honestly, the way I've watched my retirement savings shrink the last month and a half, I don't feel as financially comfortable as I used to.

I'd go 357 of the two mentioned.

Why, screw that commie 7.62x39 junk.

I have both rifles. A major factor to consider with the kids is weight of the rifle and recoil. I like the CZ in 7.62x39 for kids to start out. Good cartridge options, magazine feed (easy to load/unload and monitor with a new shooter/hunter in the woods), light weight, easy to shoot (these still may have the CZ backwards pull safety), smaller stock size, and not much recoil for 123gr factory load. It's a good rifle. My sons really liked to use the CZ when they were that age.

But, both are good choices.

........Funny!

I agree that the x39 is not a bad option - assuming proper ammo employed. I'd be sure as most know to use something for hunting, not FMJ. Cheap surplus practice/plinking ammo is a + even if it is Commie junk

Cheaper yet, practice w/rimfire and hunt w/centerfire.

The CZ527 will have the "forward for fire" safety. Been that way for a long time.

I have been wanting a CZ527 Carbine in 7.62x39 for years and last year, i was very close to being able to buy one. The choice was actually between a Ruger 77/44 & the CZ. What settled the decision was that i found a nice used 77/44 for a nice price.

target @ 50 yards with reddot


The 77/44 is a total pussycat to shoot and the 357 version will only be more so. I don't have a clue as to recoil of the CZ, but i can't imagine it would be significant, but in relation to the 77/44 or 77/357, it might prove to be more noticable.

I don't reload, but i have heard that, at least with the 77/44, OAL is an issue...i bet the same is true with the 77/357.

Considering cost of both rifles, I think you get more gun with the CZ. Overall quality and general design of the CZ is hands down better than the Ruger (which really isn't a true 77 action, otherwise they would be much closer to compare). The CZ has some nice features, but depending on your use of it (giving it to a kid), the Ruger would likely serve better being SS/Syn. I don't see any CZ (other than the 513 & 452 Scout) as an entry level gun...i think CZ in general is for a more discerning shooter.

For what it's worth, since i don't have the exact rifle in question, i do own a 77/44 & formerly owned 527 american, so i am familiar with both actions in question

DW

That little 77/357 will never quit being either fun or useful. Stick a straight objective, low-power scope on it and keep it handy. Makes for a great truck or barn gun. I've been pestering Ruger to bring out a stainless 96/357 for years. That would be a great intro rifle and an ideal truck gun. Sorry about the slight veer off-topic...

The CZ is the better rifle, and 7.62x39 the better round. The little CZ action is an absolute gem, and later on could be used as a donor action for some other great little cartridges. Unless you are spending weeks on end in the field, i don't think SS is any great advantage. I found i still gave SS rifles the same care and attention i gave blued-steel rifles, and if you are going to do that i would argue in a lightweight rifle i would marginally prefer a carbon/Cr-Mo rifle, as they are a little stiffer and stronger for their weight. OK, maybe i just think blued looks better.

Funny stuff

If you're set on the 7.62x39 you are aware that Ruger offers it in their M77 Hawkeye Compact?

35.5" over-all length
12.5" LOP
16.5" barrel
5.75 pounds
1-10 twist
Holds 4 down

Better than the CZ Carbine IMHO

Put the CZ next to the Hawkeye, and in any "mini" cartridge i would argue you would always choose the CZ. It is just a far more compact, even elegant design. I like the hawkeye, and it is an aweful lot of gun for the money, but i wouldn't choose one in 7.62x39.

I'd argue the CZ is the kinda rifle he might well still be using as a woods rifle in half a century. There are lots of hardened old riflemen who swear by that little CZ action for compact little rifles. It is also an action that is designed for modern, high pressure loads, whereas the little ruger 357 isn't.

I've had the CZ Carbine 7.62x39

"Backwards" safety, ugly protruding magazine, LOP too long for a youth.

Personally, if it were me (and legal to hunt deer in your State) I would get a .223Rem and set it up for a youth. Replacement stocks are easy to come by (for when your grandson is older/bigger), and the cartridge is more than adequate for deer and hogs. Lighter recoil and muzzle blast too.

The thing I don't like about the little CZ is that you have to mount the scope kinda high to clear the bolt handle. That's a big turnoff for me.

Find an older Interarms Mini-Mauser in 7.62x39.

Problems solved.

Go Americana....

6.8 Rem SPC in a Ruger Compact.

...........I can understand your opinion behind the CZ 527 carbine being more elegant looking. I`ll agree.

But I`m curious as to your thinking that the CZ527 is a "far more compact" design?

Per the czusa site; the CZ527 carbine specs.

Weight........................5.9 lbs
OAL...........................37.4"
Barrel length.................18.5"
LOP...........................13.5"

Maybe I`m missing something here, but how do you get a more compact design from that particular CZ rifle, which is a little heavier, has a longer LOP, and has longer OAL when compared to the smaller or shorter in every way Ruger compact?

And out of curiosity you wouldn`t choose the 7.62x39 as a youth cartridge for what reason?

I`m not familiar with Ruger`s actions in their new 77/357 and how that would compare design wise with the M77 actions. But aside from that, I am "very" familiar with Ruger compact actions. In that dept, there`s no CZ in the world that is going to have a stronger action than that of the M77 action, which will handle with no problems the modern and high pressure loadings.

I would choose the 7.62x39 as a youth cartridge. I would even choose it as a grown-up cartridge. But not in the Hawkeye, as the action is not scaled to the cartridge. I will concede i am perhaps a little fixated on action matching cartridge, having grown up on a diet of sakos. I like compact little rifles, but IMO, a compact rifle is all about putting mass where it counts, so i tend to rather more barrel, less action. I like little lever guns for the same reason. The CZ action is more than an inch and a half shorter than the ruger 77 and has a similarly reduced bolt pull, and weighs about a pound less but does the same job in "mini" cartridges. Some find the magazine on the CZ unsightly, and as it sits right at balance point it does sit where you would like to put your hand. But the reason it is there is to provide a single column feed, the advantages of which i think make up for the disadvantages - but that is a personal thing. I agree the LOP on the ruger would be a big advantage, and it would be easy and cheap to replace the stock in a couple of years when he outgrows it.

As for the 77/357 - well, 357 seems to make more sense in a little lever to both me and the person asking the question.

Ruger did make a run of 77Mk II's in 7.62x39 - with 22" barrels and the boat paddle stock. Over a 16" barrel I would think you'll get 150-180 fps, and less muzzle blast. There are 3 or 4 on Gunbroker at the moment.

I could like the CZ, with a longer barrel and a flush magazine. As it is I think I'll buy one of the Mk II's, one of these days...

I love these dilemmas. I've wanted one of those CZ 527s in 7.62x39 for a long time. Get it for him so I can vicariously celebrate the gift! By the way, I just finished building my .260 and have started working-up loads for it. Your 100lb grandson most certainly can handle it. Factory loads are...limited. I handload and don't care, but so far I love the merits of the .260! Excellent choice especially if you load your own, and far exceeds anything and everything the 7.62x39 can do, but for whatever reason I still want that handy little 527. Another thread has a guy talking about a reduced recoil load for a .308. I just got done pestering him with questions. Hope to hear more about it, but wanted to offer that option to further muddy the waters. That's a lucky grandkid right there.

Ruger's 77/357 & 77/44 actions are deceiving because of the name...they are not the same action as the "77", they are essentially the same as what is used on the 77/22.

If you are comparing a Ruger 77/whatever to a CZ527, the CZ is hands down a better rifle in every regard. If you are comparing a Ruger 77 in 7.62x39 to a CZ527 in 7.62x39, then that would be an apples to apples comparison.

I lust after the CZ in 7.62x39, but would consider a Ruger...not the compact though (not a fan). I would look for one of the older all weather Rugers in 7.62x39. One thing CZ does have in its favor is robust iron sights.

DW

Lots of good discussion here. Thanks! I finally decided to mount the red-dot on the Marlin, using a scout base. My grandson is already very familiar with operating the lever and hammer. I just bore-sighted it tonight, and it seems like a pretty handy rig. We'll try it a couple of years and go from there, probably a 243, but I might just let him have my 300WSM M70EW, and load it light.