A 'smith friend of mine and a bunch of his customers have been having unusually tough times trying to make a couple of brands of reputable American rifles shoot inside a yard at a hundred inches. Torquing guard screws, tweaking and tinkering with bedding and loads � no help, not a hint of the source of the problem after many hours, many dollars, many miles, many tufts of hair pulled out by the roots, and cuss words draped like leaves over every bush, TV antenna, clothesline, and power line in the county.<P>The 'smith's borescope with its angled tip revealed the problem � on one side of the throat in each of these rifles, the lands reached (intact) clear back to the mouth of the chamber, while on the other side of the throat, the lands didn't begin until quite some distance down the bore. Chambers were out of line with the axis of the bore. Some little bit of an alignment discrepancy, not detectible by simply squinting down the bore.<P>The obvious conclusion, amply clarified ad nauseam by posts on another thread, would seem to be that only those shooters with this particular problem � or their 'smith � should bother with such a costly item as a borescope. If you don't have the problem, you don't have to look for it. If you don't have to look for it, you don't need the doodad to look for it with. Simple.<P>NOW I get it! I get it! (Took a while.)

A Borescope is something I've always wanted, it's just when ever I save up that much money I wind up getting something else. <P>Harbor Freight Tools (www.harborfreight.com - search for "borescope" under keyword) has a couple of borescopes. The first has a tube length of 12.75," uses a Mini Mag-Lite as it's illumination source, and is on sale for $179.99. You would be able to see the chamber, throat, and down from the muzzle a ways, but you's miss the middle part of the barrel. <P>The second borescope has a 20" flexible tube, uses the Mag-Lite, and costs $329.99. The flexible tube would allow you to look into engines, drains and all kinds of stuff.<P>I have no idea as to the quality of these borescopes. Anyone mess with one? Is not seeing the barrel from say 6" to 14" a big deal?<P>Blaine<P>

Ken, you wouldn't be willing to share the Brand Names of the rifle(s) involved, would you? (Not wanting any flameouts here, just curious.) badger.<P>------------------<BR>Gun control is good bullet placement.....

My friend asked me not to give out any more details than I've already given. He's trying to work with the manufacturers to eliminate the problem.<P>There's more than one manufacturer involved, so others besides the ones he mentioned are just as likely to have the same problem.<P>Bottom line? With a borescope or a Cerrosafe chamber cast, CHECK the chamber and throat of ANY rifle that isn't delivering the accuracy you think it should, for this problem. If you find that yours is also afflicted, send it back to the manufacturer and make loud noises about it until you get a new barrel on it � one that doesn't have this problem.<P>Other than this, all I can tell you is that two of the brands mentioned were very prominent American brands (and not Ruger or Winchester).

Fair enough. I asked because a good friend (& poster here) had a similar problem with his brand new 338 Ultra. Chamber & bore so severely misaligned that extraction AND insertion were all but impossible. (Won't even talk about how it (didn't) shoot. He chose not to return it to the manufacturer but elected to have it straightened out by a gunsmith who re-barreled it with a Douglas bbl & worked the action. Won't mention his name although he probably will chime in if he sees this post. The manufacturer in question will go un-named suffice to say they now have warts on them badger.<P>------------------<BR>Gun control is good bullet placement.....

Ken,<P>I've yet to take my rifles to work, to boroscope them, as I said I would. Hopefully this week<P>But your example still does not impress, on me, the need for an <B>average</B> shooter to buy a boroscope. But sure, for a gunsmith, or a serious shooter, it's a handy thing to have. <P>It sounds like those were brand new rifles. If any new rifle were to perform like that, then of course it should be sent back. <P>My thoughts being, that it was the inaccuracy of the rifle, which brought the problem to light (pun intended ), not a boroscope.<P>Sure it was nice for them to be able to see exactly what was wrong, but it didn't fix the problem. The problem will be fixed the same way it would have been without the 'scope. The rifle will probably be sent back to the manafacture.<P>Basically, yes it's a cool thing to have, but it neither detected the problem (the target did that first), nor did it fix it.<P>Thanks for the information! I hope you can accept my difference of opinion, without feeling I'm attacking yours. <P>------------------<BR>Brian<BR><A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/bw_99835/" TARGET=_blank>The 416 Taylor WebPage!</A>

Ken, a fellow poster here on the gunsmith board has told me of having this problem come up often the last couple years. He claims on one brand of rifle it`s the first thing he looks at if a rifle doesn`t shoot. Says alot about todays quality control, or should I say management, in some business.

Talked to my favorite gunsmith who mentioned the same problem, mostly with Remingtons in one particular chambering. Don't know why American firms can't figure out that quality control is vital. One of these days, Howa is going to really decide to attack the American market, in which case we can say good by to most US firearms manufacturers, except for Ruger I suppose. I'm in the market for a new rifle and expect I'll buy foreign, like I do cars.

Doc,<P>Don't buy, build. That's the only way you can get exactly what you want.<P>Blaine

I can tell you right now that the name was Remington.<BR>i have personally seen over 50 new Rem rifle with a "crooked" chamber. I.E. the leade up to 3/8" longer on one side than the other.<BR>I first noticed it on the Ultra mags when they came out. But now I have sen it on everything fron the RUMs to even the PSS.<BR>The company I used to work for is collecting data and complaints about this to present to Remingtons vice pres John Lotion.<BR>From the time I seen the first one at that shop untill now, 5 months after I quit to start my own show, they have logged around 300 such chambers in Remington rifles.<BR>If you would like to pass on your complaints and or findings in this matter, please call 810-653-2911. Ask for Sam and tell him Celt, or Jeff sent you. <BR>He has called me and asked if I would help out via the internet and by releasing my own data on the subject.<BR>Please give a call to Sam or email me at [email protected]<BR>Chamber casts and pictures via the bore scope are going to be sent to mr. Lotion a Remington. This problem needs to be seriuosly addressed. With your help we may be able to convince the once best American rifle producer.<BR>Thank you<BR>.......Celt<BR>

Celt, et al:<P>This exact problem is being actively discussed on the Benchrest.com Centerfire boards at this time.<P>I'm sure someone has already thought of this, but a similar post to the above in that forum might be helpful.<P>They've even had a response by Remington, which, to say the least, was not very helpful or heartening. Specifically, Remington, apparently for liability purposes is purposely cutting chambers over SAAMI specs, which, unbeknowst to the rest of us, is a voluntary organization. That is, there is no rule or requirement that anyone follow their specs on factory rifles. This is done intentionally, who knows what happens by accident. Has sure made me re-think my position on buying any current or near current Remington Rifles.