Firearms44 and I did some .35 shooting today. He brought a custom Remington Model Seven with 20" stainless barrel and I brought a Ruger Frontier with a 16.5" barrel. Chronoed the old Winchester 200 grain Silvertip and the new Hornady 200 Spire Point...

Hornady 200:

16.5"... 2352/2357

20"......2361/2449/2445



Winchester 200:

16.5".....2360/2401

20".......2464/2281/2373

We were trying to conserve ammo and just wanted to shoot enough to get a ballpark area what the velocity was since it will shoot differently from different rifles anyway...

From a 22" barrel the Hornady load should be doing about 2525 fps....I'm going guess the Winchester will be about the same.

In checking my reloading data for the Frontier:

51 grains of 748 w/220 Speer FP......2210 @ 80* (2170 @ 50*)

Killed a large doe with this load so even though it is slow it got the job done one could "eat right up to the hole" on both sides.....


Bob

Sold a Ruger 77 a few years back w/ 22" barrel that would run 225 Partitions in the mid to upper 2400 fps range without a lot of trouble. 250 Hornady spitzers were about 100 fps slower. Your numbers seem consistent with that, given the barrel lengths you're working with.

Thanks for the info RJM, how is the recoil on the Ruger Frontier?

Just as an FYI... Reloder 7 pushes 200's well over 2600 fps from my 20" barrel. TAC is supposed to do the same. TAC gives me an easy 2500 fps with the 225 Partition with (here's no good part) no powder compression to speak of.

I'm really hoping the new .35 cal 200-gn Accubond comes out soon.

Has anyone tried the 225 Accubonds? Trying to decide what good bonded bullets to load up for my 358 BLR.

Thanks

They'll be problematically long methinks.

.......RJM,,,,,,,,Doing the math by adding up your velocities and then dividing accordingly, the 200 gr Hornadys from your Frontier averaged 64 fps behind the Remy 7 or 18.28 fps less (per inch) of shorter barrel length.

Using the Winchester 200s and going by your #s, the average is surprisingly much closer averaging only an 8 fps total difference between both barrel lengths. Throwing out your low figure of 2281 fps from the 20" barrel, the average reduction then becomes a total of 38 fps or 10.85 fps per inch.

Another two of the same rifles will probably get somewhat different results but nevertheless, here is another example that when shooting the same ammo, reductions of between 15 to 20 fps per inch of shorter barrel length is very true and very realistic.

Vs the longer 24" barrels and shooting the same identical ammo, my Frontier ran 16.4 to 19.5 fps (per inch) behind.

Mild.... The short stock and hard rubber recoil pad don't really seem that bad but with a slipon Limbsaver pad it is nothing. From sitting with a sling I hit a steel gong at 200 yards at the range 2/2 yesterday...but the gong is pretty big..

Ken gave me a Boatpaddle stock for it yesterday so I am going to try it and see if it makes any difference.

Bob

Thanks Jeff O, I was hoping they wouldn't be too long... already knew I couldn't with my 350 Rem Mag... sadly.

The recoil was mild with my BLR. I thought it would be hefty considering how light it is and the stock design.

The fact that the ruger shooting nearly as fast as a 20" could be due to it is a hammer forged barrel. I know that Polygonl rifling is common is CHF barrels. Because the rifling is not cut into the dia. the bullet actually swags and has less gas escapeing around the bullet as it travels the barrel. less loss of gas is more to push the projectile and thus less of a velocity loss.
I have a 20" barrel that shoots GM308M at just over 2550 MV. Out of a 26" remington the same lot shot just at 2650 MV.

I do think "too long" is tied to velocity in this case (bad, bad pun)... if you will accept 2200, 2300 fps it's probably ok. If you want 2500 fps there's gonna be problems with COAL restrictions and case capacity etc.

I've killed enough deer with the 225 Partition to know that while it's a good deer bullet, just a little more explosiveness & fragmentation would be nice. Perhaps the 200-NAB will give us that, with a decent enough BC to not cripple the cartridge like the 200 Horn SP does. That's the hope anyway.

(another thought about the 225 NAB: a guy could remove the tip and save ~.10".... I've considered doing that.)

The Sierra 225gr Game King and the 220gr Speer FP are great deer and black bear bullets at 358Win velocities. I wouldn't be afraid to use them on elk also. As stated, 2450fps is easily attained with both the 225gr SGK and Partition.

The 225gr Accubond is too long for the 2.80" max BLR magazine. Maybe TAC will allow you to get up near 2400fps.

I wish Speer would make a 225gr Deep Curl for the 35cals.

I shot a couple of whitetail does with the 220 grain Speer FP from a 20" Marlin 336 that has been rechambered from 35 to 356 and found them to be "too tough", producing through/through penetration without a lot of expansion. On similar sized deer, the 180 grain Speer FP expanded more and has proven to be a quicker killer. If I was going to use either of the Speer FPs, I'd load the 220s for larger/tougher game and the 180s for smaller, more lightly constructed, game like deer and antelope.

Jeff

Have to concur with 260...those Speer 220s are a very tough bullet. The one from the Frontier that took out the doe hit her broadside and square as her two front legs came together. The bullet entered about 2" into the rear of the front left leg, went throgh both lungs and the exited in the exact same place on the right leg. She bucked, turned a 180 and ran for about 35 yards before dropping....almost no meat damage at all.

A friend hit a 380 pound black bear from an elevated stand. The bullet went through the upper shoulders, down through the lung and heart and was found nicely expanded under the skin of the chest...and that was out of a Remington 673 .350 RemMag with a 22" barrel with a muzzle velocity of 2690 fps...





My friend killed 4 black bear with the Speer and all were one shot drop at the shot kills...

This my favorite .350 Mag bullet as it is tough and cheap.... I flattened a large running deer with one from a Model 600 and the deer could not get to the ground fast enough....


This site has a lot of good expansion tests of .35 bullets used in the .35 Rem and .358....

http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/b...ullet-performance-part-ii-handloads.html
Bob

These are the lungs from last year's buck, about 50 yards with a 225-NP out of my .358. MV right at 2500 fps.

I'd like to see a little more jelly'ing and so on. That said the meat damage with this bullet is minimal.

One of these days I'm going to go the .358 route again. I let one of the Ruger Frontier rifles get by me here on the classifieds a few years back and have regretted it ever since.

Any comparisons or improvement between the hornady 200 SP and the newer 200 FTX ?

When contacted Hornady stated the FTX would be fine at 2500 - 2600 velocities .

Have done some accuracy work with these but have not drawn blood with the FTX .

Funny about that. I've had several over the years, only to sell it off then down the road buy another.

I got a VG deal on a BLR a couple yrs ago and sold it to a fellow I work with. Now I "need" another. New barrel ordered last week.

.

From what I have read the Hornady 200 Spire Point is as tough a bullet as the Remington 200 Spire Point for the .350 RemMag...it doesn't open up real rapidly.

http://35cal.com/35bullet_study/35bullet_study1.html

I would hope that the FlexTip being made for .35 Remington velocities would do better....

Bob

Don't think I will part with my Ruger SS Hawkeye 358 Win anytime soon. It is certainly not the prettiest, smoothest nor lightest rifle I have but man does it shoot straight. It likes 225 gr Partitions over 46 grs of TAC and shoots MOA at 100 yds when I do my part. I've not taken any game with it yet but it will be my go to deer rifle and will serve as my backup for elk (unless I'm mostly in timber) in CO this fall.

I've carried my .358 elk hunting, on days I planned to sit and still hunt in the timber. I felt pretty well armed. I've heard that it's not a super-penetrator with the 225 NP, which makes sense.

What I want is the perfect deer bullet that isn't a flying ashtray.

I've always thought that the perfect bullet would be a Nosler 210gr partition like their .338 version. I'm going to try the 200TTSX this year on deer. I think the longer length of the bullet would be good as far as SD is concerned. powdr

I've never heard that a Nosler Petition doesn't penetrate. All the ones I and my friends have used on deer and moose were never recovered except one that shot the full length of a deer and was found under the skin of the rear leg.

There was a test once between the Nosler Petition and the Swift A-Frame and the Nosler penetrated further because after expanding it lost the front lead core and the smaller frontal area was able to keep cutting. The Swift being a bonded core, didn't loose the front core which expanded resulting in the bullet slowing down faster.

Don't know about your hunting conditions but 99% of the shots that I and 5 friends have had in hunting from Pennsylvania to upper Maine have been under 100 yards. Only two or so deer in well over 100 shot were fired at over 100. One doesn't need a Swift Scirocco or Berger VDL for those kinda shots.

Last night I looked at some of the Hawk bullets in .35. They have soft cores and can be had in different jacket thicknesses and point styles. They have a 200 & 225 Flat Point with a .025 jacket and a 200 & 225 Round Tip .030 jacket that I think would expand better at the low velocities that come from the 16.5" barrel Frontier.

From what I have read and experienced until one is getting into the moose size game 99% of the .35 caliber bullets have a problem with under expansion vs. under penetration on lesser animals.

Time to adjust....Bob

Ok. Gonna change it up & ask a question. I've had everything on the 308 case...Now.. I got this YUGO action that's telling me .358 Win !! Tell me what a .358 will do that a .338 Fed. wont do. I've killed some BIG feral boars at close range with the .338. It did allright with 200 gr.C.T.- S/T's at 2550 FPS. I walk up close to the big boars & it IS exiting ...knowing they WILL charge if you get close. The .338 doesn't seem to have anything the .308 lacks ( sorry)in real time. I gotta have a .358 so ...tell me something good here !

You can load pistol bullets in the 358 and have cheap shooting fun with less recoil. On big game, probably not much difference between the 358 and the 338.

Dale

Well..I'm a prolific bullet caster & I thought if one day bullets were not available I have about 300 lbs of wheelweights that could be be put to good use in a .358 ! ( light bulb ) You know a rifle loony doesn't really wanna listen to reason once his feverish mind is made up. I have a YUGO..the mag box is about 3.200 + "..I made a synthetic M-98 stock 1/4 " shorter to fit the lil homeless bastid and I don't have one ..and...

I agree that Partitions in general penetrate. I'm just saying within that context the .35/225 is not one of the "deeper" ones. Or so I've heard. I did recover one from a dink deer strangely enough.

I also agree that at typical .358 ranges the flight ballistics are irrelevant.

With those things conceded I still would like a bullet that flies like the 225-NP (which makes the .358 a 400-yd cartridge) yet is a bit more explosive on deer. The main place I use my .358, a property I kind of built it for, does have a large meadow where a 375-yd shot is possible. Loaded with the 200-gn Hornady SP that's out of reach.

Carnicero...sounds like you have the foundation for a real nice .358 Winchester....

In reality I don't think there is much difference in the under 100 yard shooting performance of the .338 and the .358 with bullets of similar construction and equal sectional density. Like you said however...the are a lot of pistol bullets available for the .358 that are not for the .338....so get your project started will ya!!

Jeff....have you tried the Sierra 225 BT? Supposed to expand faster than the Petition....should fly flatter. I've found and read that once one gets over .33 caliber violent expansion isn't quite as critical as with .30 and under. With the .35 caliber bullets generally available velocity is the only thing that is going to make them expand faster and that is not the forte of the .358 no matter what the barrel length... That is why I have 5 .350 RMs and only one .358. I want that extra 200 fps.

I am in the same quandary over what bullet to use in the 16.5" Frontier. Velocity is more in the hot .35 Remington range vs. edging the .350 RM area that could be done with a 24" barrel .358. The 220 Speer is a GREAT bullet for the .350 RM but simply a hole punch out of a .35 Remington.... So do I go for the lighter 150-200 grain bullet at a greater velocity or for a heavier custom bullet that will hopefully expand... Nosler recommends their 180 grain .357 Partition pistol bullet for deer and hogs up close if one wants expansion and penetration... There is also the Speer 170 grain Gold Dot Flat Point....


Bob

I have a feeling I could make a killing with a few boxes of 35/225 Nosler ballistic tips right about now. Shot those from my Whelen years ago. Maybe you 358 Win guys could gang-up on Nosler and "coerce" them into making a few thousand of them for you. The originals were pretty long though and might cause COAL problems in your 358s if you keep the case mouth on full diameter.

I got out of the 358 Win business a long time ago, but I'm thinking that among the bullets made today, one would be hard pressed to beat the Sierra 225gr spitzer boattail for use in the 358. The SD is .25 and BC is about .38 at 358 Win speeds. Sierra bullets have a reputation for thin jackets, accuracy, and easy expansion. I don't think you could drive one fast enough to blow it up from any 358 Win. Sierra also makes a 200gr RN if more velocity and quick expansion are desired, but SD is .22 and BC is only .15 at 358 Win speeds. There just is no solution to turn a 358 into a 22-250 (or 35 Whelen) no matter how you slice it.

powdr, I have a Hawkeye S/S in 358W, the 200 gn TTSX's are a bit longer than the same in TSX, I tried lots of different powders with the newer TTSX and found with RL-7, 2700 fps was attainable without massive powder compression, and pockets are still tight after four firings so far, and have just loaded up another 50 rounds for this fall.

Gunner

I tested a few bullets out of my 358 when I discovered a few boxes of reject drywall mud one time. (It's a consistent, if somewhat less-than-perfect, expansion medium.) Anyhow, you can see that they don't all use the same core alloys or jacket construction.

In addition to the 'still life' above, I have a couple 'non-artificials" as well:



The 250 SP Hornady and the 225 XFB, both taken from the same moose shot at the same distance (reasonably far for moose with the 358). Obviously, over expansion (jacket failure), and under-expansion, as well as penetration problems can be issues in real life.



The 225 NBT (at 10 0'clock) didn't fair all too well on a puny red fox. Neither did the fox of course, however!



A 200 SP Core-lokt recovered from a caribou.



A 250 Speer from a moose, a 'diagonal' shot at 40 yards or so.



Another 'still-life': 200 XFB failed to fail, and failed to under penetrate on this moose joint test. (Those were good, accurate bullets in my 358.)

Nice report Klik, I punched a couple WT does with my 358W using H-322 and the 200 gn TSX, I will admit to a double shoulder shot on each, complete penetration with a little bigger than thumb sized exit wounds, and very little wasted meat, both deer folded at the shot.

Longest shot was a bit over 90 yards IIRC.

Gunner

Cut a 35 cal hole to start out and get bigger.

OTOH, the 338 F 'might' penetrate more.

Interesting thread fellas, ive just gone to 200grn hornady speer points. I was using the 225grn nosler partition on sambar deer. The 3 deer we took early this year, all about half grown. The partition was very hard and punched straight through the shoulder area and out the other side. Small exit hole.

I have only shot paper with the hornady so far, but its a very accurate bullet out of 22" pac nor stainless.

Johno