Does anyone know from first hand experience if a good (but still safe) handload from a .308 Winchester with 165 grain bullets fired from a 20" barrel can break 2700 fps?

Nosler also has a 165 grain Accubond factory load that is rated at 2800 fps. Anyone know what it would do from a 20" barrel?

From my three 20" rifles it's no. I haven't tried some of the latest powders though.

Okay - edited after I looked up chrono results. Used my oldest son's .308 Win, Browning BLR with a 20" barrel. Apparently only ran a couple of kinds of factory ammo through it, and I'm not sure this exact ammo is available anymore. Don't think so:

Federal 165 gr Trophy Bonded, 2608 fps avg

Federal 165 "High Energy" Trophy Bonded, 2761 fps avg

There ya go, that's all I've got... I don't think I ran any of my handloads through it that day, and I haven't borrowed back that rifle in a while...

Guy

Guy, I'm curious if you have compared your handloads to those factory loads in other rifles. It might still make for a usedful comparison.

It's interesting to see how some things work out. I have an old Ruger 77RSI Ultralight with an 18.5 inch barrel in .30-06. Using Hodgdon's maximum charge of H-4350 it does an honest chronographed 2715 fps from that short barrel and without any signs of pressure.

Fraser, I looked through my notes and found in '98 where I had played with a 20" .308 and 165s. The chamber was rather tight, and this was as hard as I dared run it.

The load consisted of:
Remington-Peters case
CCI BR2 primer
Varget, 44.4 grains

First was a Nosler ballistic tip.
OAL of 2.880", 2644 fps

Second was a Speer Flatbase Spitzer.
OAL of 2.800", 2647 fps

Third was the Hornady Flatbase Spitzer.
OAL of 2.800", 2655 fps


The Nosler bullet had a kinda high standard deviation, and the Hornady was more accurate than the Speer, but those results are with that particular rifle.

IME, 2700 with a 20" tube would be leaning on it fairly hard. But probably doable with Varget.

In my present 22" tube .308 I feel that 2700 and a 165 is about top end. That's with Varget as well.

Now others may come up with something else but this is what's been my experience.

Flip side is, if it's rolling at a good consistent 2650 or so what's it really matter...?

Just a thunk

Dober

With a 20" barrel, I got just a little over 2700 fps with a 150 gr bullet. With 165's, it was around 2600. But, a 165 Accubond at 2600 puts deer down quickly.

http://www.hornady.com/store/308-Win-165-gr-GMX-Superformance/

This link to hornady has a muzzle velocity of 2750 fps. Probably in a 24" barrel. So for a 20" barrel subtract a 100 fps.

.............Any cartridge`s capable velocities from a specific barrel length using a specific bullet and bullet weight will depend on the individual rifle bore and that rifle`s max pressure capability.

I don`t own a 308. But if I wanted to find the answer for a yes or no probability, I`d add up all of the max velocities listed for all 165 gr bullets using all powders and then divide that # by the # of loadings listed; Hodgdon and other manuals usually list velocities from 24" barrels. Then deduct about 20-25 fps (per inch) of shorter barrel length to account for the shorter 20" barrel length.

Hodgdon does show one interesting 165 gr 308 Win loading using their new CFE 223 (Copper Fouling Eraser). 2839 fps from their 24" barrel. 2839 fps minus 80 to 100 fps still gets you over 2700 fps.

Aside from that CFE 223 loading, Hodgdon lists max velocities from 2608 up to 2773 fps from the 24" barrel. You might get 2700 and a maybe a little better from some of them.

So I`d say that it is quite possible and highly likely to achieve 2700 fps using a 165 bullet from a 20" tube with no pressure signs.

But then again, that all depends on the rifle.

Yes it will.

RL15 will run just over 2,700. Varget will run just under 2,700.

2000MR will go just over 2,800 with a 165 NAB in a 22" bbl. Pretty safe to assume 2,750 will be easy with same in a 20" bbl.

My FN patrol rifle with 20" barrel chronographed 168 gr Sierra Match Kings at 2700 fps with 46 gr of Varget. I'm getting 2765 fps with that load in a 22" Kimber with the same powder charge and 165 Hornady interlocks.

In my experience 2700+ is easy with 165-168's in a 21-inch barrel, with published data, with more than one powder. It should be easily possible in a 20-inch barrel as well, since there isn't any practical difference.

Personally, I've found 150-155 grain bullets plenty for anything from the .308.

My opinion is the 165/168's are the "natural" bullet weight in the 308.

I guess my barrels are slow.

There are no "slow" barrels, there are just barrels not loaded to their full potential.

46 gr. of RL15 or Varget under a 168 was as hot as I went.

No doubt you could go to 46.5... you should "just" get 2,700 or a smidge less with a 20" barrel and Varget.

The .308 can actually use slightly slower powders than usual RL15/Varget/4895 with 165's. Also, there are newer powders.

Here's some data from 24" barrels, which shouldn't lose more than 100 fps from 20" barrels:

Hodgon CFE 48.3--2839
Ramshot Big Game 49.0--2790
Accurate 2530 47.7--2861

42.8 grains of Alliant AR-Comp is also listed at 2820 fps.

If I want to stand on it again I think I'll try the Hodgdon CFE.

I've been going the other way for a while now, 165/168 grains at 2550 propelled by IMR8208XBR about a half grain under max. Small groups, easy on me and the brass.

I've tried most of the .308-suitable powders and many 165-168 grain bullets in several rifles. While 2700+ is attainable with 22" barrels, you might make it with a 20". In a NULA 22", most accurate load has been 43 grs. H4895 with the Barnes 168 TSX BT. It appears to be a max. or near-max. load and clocks app. 2725.

What brass is that in?

Mathman-
Brass is Remington, primers CCI-200.

I don't have my log book with me for velocities, but the 168 or 165 NBtip and 46 grains of Varget kills deer very reliably, and I really can't tell any difference, nor could anyone I imagine, between the 20" and 24" barrels.

I found 2640 to be near max with a 20" 700 and Varget/168's. A guy could likely bump that up a smidge with the slower powders others mention here.

How about 2800?? Alliant 2000MR....

From my data: Steyr SSG69, 168 AMAX, Hornady book max load 50gr 2796fps five shots.

Best precision was around 2680 in that gun.

The factory Superformance Match 168AMAX is amazing in every 308 I have and it runs right at 2680 in the SSG69 and Tikka T3 tactical, both 20" barrels.

2715 fps in the 22" Kimber Montana. This is my standard hunting "go-to" rig because I can buy a case of that factory ammo and use it every bolt gun I have, heavy guns or the Montana. The AMAX is murderous on deer and hog too.

2000MR also did 2950 at book max with the 155 Scenar in a 20" barrel. Again best precision was found when throttled down.

Interesting that you say that. It seems a lot of people are changing their minds. I�m not sure if it is a decreased emphasis on sectional density, better bullets, or doing away with old �facts��.probably a little of each.

A 150 .277 at 2900-3000fps is a great elk killer so why do you need more than a 150 .308 at 2800-2900 fps? The standard .25-.30 caliber cartridges sure seem to be a lot more similar than different really. I am going to see if I can catch a 150 Accubond in a cow in October.

I guess my question is,why is that speed important? I shoot several 20" carbines and never worry about speed.My .308 is one of these...

No problem. Ive had 3 of them with 20" barrels, 2 rems and a sako...

My go to load was 165gr IB with 44gr imr 4895, which is 1 gr below book max. Chrony'd at 2700-2750fps from all three.

Tried varget, topped out at 2650, and not as accurate. IMO 4895 is the shizzle for short barrel .308's.

This is just my opinion but what's the extra 75-100 really get us other than to satisfy in our minds that we're getting the speeds we want...?

And this is coming from the past president of the red liners club...

Dober

I just worked up for accuracy, the extra speed was a bonus, and still under max. Took my last bull moose at 290yds with 50km sidewinds. No drama, and a full freezer.

If ya have any doubt, just ask about the capabilities of the .300 Savage. It seems to be well thought of.

That's how I finally felt comfortable with the velocity loss.

..not hard at all....

20" barrels
46.0 grains of 748
Federal Case
CCI BR Primer
2.795 LOA
165 Hornady SST/2730
168 Sierra Match King HP/2710
165 Hornady BT SP
165 Nosler Petition

Have shot these rounds from:
Remington LTR 20"
Remington 600 18.5"
Remington Model 700 Youth/Synthetic 20"
Remington SPS Varmint 26" (Hornady 165SST/2846 just chronographed today)
Ruger Frontier 16.5"
TC Encore 20 and 24"
SAKO TRG22 20" threaded

Shot the SST and SMK from the TRG22 a couple of weeks ago.

100 yards/SST



600 yards SST





100 yards/SMK



600...



800...




Well under max load.....

VeryVery accurate in all rifles that they have been tried in...

Bob

Worked up the original load of a 165SST in a Remington LTR with 20" barrel....

45 grains...



45.5...



46.0



46.5 things start going south....



47.0...and further south...





A friend shooting an LTR just like mine that I tricked out for him...but he liked the Sierra Match King...




His best group....

[img]http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b77/RJM52/Long%20Range%20Shooting/LongRange050208023.jpg[/img]

..at 800 yards....

46.0/748/any 165 just seems to be a magic combo...

Bob

None of mine will digest 46 gr. of W748 under a 165/168 in WW brass, let alone in Federal brass.

I get no pressure signs at all....rounded primers, no hard bolt lift...nothing. All I use is Federal brass in my .308 Match loads.

Bob

.308? 165 NBT over 46.0grn Varget. Seating depth may vary.

Went over to LoadData.com and checked a bunch of reloading manuals they have listed over there as well as articles from HANDLOADER Magazine...some top out as high as 47.0 with a 168....

What primer are you using and what is your LOA? I seat the bullets so that the base of the shank is even with te bottom of the case neck...in both cases with these bullets the LOA is max for a Remington short action magazine. If used in a semi, like a DPMS Panther then the loads is shortened slightly so the crimping groove can be used.

Bob

I've used F210M, WLR and CCI 250. The bullets I mostly shoot are the 168 gr. Nosler CC and AMax loaded to approx. 2.82" OACL.

With the AMax, 44 gr. of 748 is a half MOA load for my 700 5R MilSpec.

Going with Dober on this one. IIRC, I'm getting just under 2700 with 165 Interlocks ahead of 45.0 gr of Varget out of my 22" Tikka. Phenomenally accurate.

Funny thing is, I am a trivia/minutiae geek and love details and specs. Used to keep quite detailed logs on all my shooting, but finally got tired of the time on the bench and the book work on all my various calibers. I went out and got a couple of .308's, bought 8lb kegs of Varget, some 175 SMKs for the 5R and 125 TNTs for the 5R and T3 (my walking around varmint bullet), and the 165 Hornadys for the Tikka.


I worked up to the 45 grains of Varget which shoots awesoome in both rifles with all the bullets and left the powder measure alone. Have been resisting the old urges to try every powder/bullet combo known. Makes life simpler and I get more field shooting done!

Once I found that great load I just ran it over the chrony to get my drops set and let myself forget about velocity. I must say, it's liberating!

YMMV.

I hunted for years with a 20" Rem. 7600 , loaded with Speer 165 Gr. RNs over 45 Gr. of W-748 . It' was a deadly load and rifle combo . Speer discontinued that bullet several years ago . If anyone out there has some they'd part with , I'd be interested !

Can't remember the charge weight but it was the max in the book using IMR 3031 and a 165g NBT out of my 77 International's 18.5" bbl. got me 2675 fps so you should have no trouble busting 2700 fps outo f a 20" bbl.

I have used Federal factory 165 Trophy Bonded P308TT4, They chroned 2840fps from my 22" stainless Ruger.

Fraser,

I have a Featherweight .308 Win with a 22" barrel & 1:12 twist. I get over 2900 FPS with Hornady 165 Light Magnums. I think you'll get close to that velocity with a 20" barrel.

.308 WIn does not require a long barrel to achieve max velocity.

BTW, I get better than 2900 FPS with 150 grain Core-Lokts.



Good Hunting,

R

Rem. 700, 20" Tactical
Sierra 165 HPBT Gameking
Federal 210 Primers
45.5 gr. RL 15
R-P Brass, 3 Times Loaded

5 shot string, 2686 fps avg. 28 fps extream spread.

Shot sligthly over 1/2" in 10-15 mph guhsting winds.

I started at 44 gr. and worked up in .5 gr increments. I averaged about a 20fps gain in velocity per .5 grain increment.

All groups shot less than an inch at 100 yards.

As always, work up with caution.

GB

Good info, thx. Especially like the 20 fps gain for each .5.

Dober

Sure could be the case, barrels are like people (IE they're not all the same, some are fast, some slow and some just right).

I'd not worry tons though in years gone past I did. I find top end, back off 50-100 and want the best accuracy I find get.

Shoot straight

Dober

Oh yeah, I don't run them hard at all for my purposes. I have a few real accurate 2550 fps loads that suit me fine.