Evenin',

I would like to get the opinions and facts all down here on the Sako. I have read and listened and still don't know exactly what happened when. Seems like there are contradictory versions about.

Stuff like:
Garcia happened in 1972?
A Finnbear is?
Etc..

Thanks,

Cube,

Garcia Happened in 1972? Yes, they became the importer, up until about 1978, when Stoeger became the importer.

A Finnbear is? The Sako long action like in:
L61R
AIII
AV
691, et al

Fits, 270, 30-06, 7mm mag, 300 winny, 375 H&H, et al

Go to: http://groups.msn.com/SakoCollectorsClub/_whatsnew.msnw

Bob

So the Finnbear is not a specific model?

thanks,

Cube,

Sorry I should have been more specific.

The were three original models (sizes) of Sako bolt action Rifles, each on their own action size:

Vixen (short 222, 223 et al) L46, L461, L469 action
Forester (medium 22-250, 243, 308 et al) L57, L579 action
Finnbear (long 270, 30-06, 7mm rem mag 300 win mag, 338 win mag, 375 H&H et al) L61R action

Thus the Finnbear was the long action or magnum action. This long action Finnbear was made in at least 4 variations that I am aware of:

Standard
Deluxe
Super Deluxe
Mannlicher


When Stoeger took over they mostly dropped these names and restyled the actions, and called them:

AI for short action
AII for medium action
AIII for long action

After a few years they restyled the tang on the AIII action and renamed it AV.

How that?

Bob

There was also an AIV long action with deep magazine for the Safari model in .375, .338 and I think .300 Win Mag. I had a .375 rebarreled to .300 H&H. Held five in the box in either the original .375 or .300 H&H. Plus one in the chamber.

You forgot the finnwolf lever actions....243, .284, .308, and .358 Win. Also there was one original modern action the L46 (1946). The Olympic shooters used these for years....mostly 222's. Then The L57 (1957) came out in 243 and 308. The L57 was changed to L579 in 1959 to correct some internal problems with the bolt/trigger/safety. Then the Long action L62R came out in 1962....'06, 270 etc. They added the 264, 300 win mag, 7mag etc along the way. Garcia took over in 1972 and kept the line albiet cheapened up....no more 3 lug bolts etc. They did build a L61R super for a year or so but it was discontinued cause it was too expensive. Stoeger changed the models to AI II and III but kept the Finnbear, Forester and Vixen names. After 1982 or so I am out of touch. There it is...everything you wanted to know about the early Sakos and boreingly <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> more. Regards, Rick.

Bob,

Thank you for the explanation on the Sakos (uh...Sockos... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ) I have been meaning to ask the question about the difference between the A-III and the A-V. So you are saying the only difference is the tang?

I have an A-III Classic in .270 Win. I also have an A-V Mannlicher full stock. (Not a carbine) But with a 20" bbl in .375 H&H. Now the Blue Book of Gun Values states this gun hasn't been made since 1972. If that is correct and Stoeger renamed them in '78, then something here doesn't add up. I'm a bit confused is all. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

G.H.

So; my L57 243 was made previous to 1959? It's almost as old as me! thanks for the info guys.

Cube,

The Blue book section on Sako's is broken up into two sections. Discontinued models and recent production.

There are mannlichers in both sections. So the L61R model mannlicher shows they were discontinued in 1972, the AIII, AV, and 691 models are listed under current production models, even though they have also been discontinued! Confused yet?

The difference between the AIII and AV is the length of the tang. Both the L61R and the AIII are called short tang models, The AV has a longer tang. Why did Sako make that change? BTSOOM....Beats the sheet out of me!

I did not mention the finnwolf levers because it is not a bolt action. I did leave off the AIV safari model bolt with drop mag because so few are seen and it's the only Sako model action I have not owned.

I was trying for a quick answer to your question, so I cut corners, that other readers are taking me to task on.

Which is why I pointed you to the Sako collectors Club BB. Much more info there, than in my short posts.

BTW my 1983 Classic AIII, in .308 (not listed in the Blue Book as available in that caliber), neither the box nor the rifle mentions the model as Forester, so that supports my assesment that Sako/Stoeger dropped the Vixen, Forester, and Finnbear names sometime in the early 80's.

I also had a pair of AV's in calibers 7x64 and 9.3x62 (therefore made later than my aII), that had "Finnbear" on the box label. These were made for the European market, so those pesky Finns, apparently still used that name, depending on where they marketed the rifles.

The more you learn, the less you think you know.

Good luck with your fine rifles.

Bob

Bob,

Thanks for the detailed explantion. I do apprecieate it! BTW: I would kill or die for a Sako in 7x64.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Am seriously considering rebarreling a .270... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Grasshopper

My favorate action is the Sako L61R.I have an Sako finnbear chambered for 338 Win and a 7 stw built on a L61R plus another action with the magnum boltface waiting to become something if i can ever decide on a cal.

Can I add a little - some will be a repeat just for continuity sake. Most of this should be correct - but with Sakos and the way production was handled, nothing is absolute.

1946, introduction of the L46 action, small calibers like the .222. Also know as Riihimaki Sakos. Firearms International is the importer.

1957, introduction of the L57 action, are designated Foresters for medium action length. Mostly .243's and .308's. L46's are now known as Vixens. Firearms international is the importer.

1959, as Rick pointed out, change of the L46 and the L57 to the improved L461 and L579 actions.

1961, development of the L61R long action for the 30.06 class of cartridges and magnum calibers. Is known as the Finnbear. The L61R has a 3rd locking lug on the bolt at this time. Bolt shrouds on all three action sizes are open, integral machined recoil lug, checkering around the bolt knob, deep bluing and a short tang on the action. Many, but not all of these 60's manufactured guns are marked as Bofors Steel on the barrel. FI is still the importer.

1972, Garcia Corp. takes over and impliments cost cutting measures across the board. Bluing, wood, finish, and 3rd locking lug on the L61R's is gone. Overall quality of the line suffers. Somewhere, perhaps around 1975 or '76, the actions go from having an open bolt shround to a closed bolt shroud. In addition to the guns already mentioned, there are heavy barreled versions of all the actions with beavertail stocks.

In 1978-1982, actions are redesignated A1(Vixen), AII (Forester), and AIII (Finnbear). Stoeger is now the imported, and quality of the rifles improves greatly.

In 1983, the AIII is dropped for the redesigned AV. The only apparent difference between the AIII and the early AV's is the longer tang length on the AV's. AIII's will fit in an AV stock, but obviously there is a large gap at the tang end. Early AV's still have the squarish type stocks, checkered bolt handles, etc., of the earlier AIII's and L61R's. My guess is about 1985, but the AV's were redesigned with the newer hunter style stock which is more rounded with a palm-swell. The bolt handle has a new angle and shape, and the checkering on the handle is gone. AIV's are also introduced during this period, and they are used exclusively on the Safari grade rifles - heavy calibers for dangerous and other large game.

1991, the S491 (vixen), M591 (forester), and L691 (Finnbear) are introduced. For a lot of folks, myself included, these were a step in the wrong direction, mainly due to cost cutting efforts. The sidewalls on the action are straight resulting in less machining costs, the action no longer has an integrated, fully machined recoil lug (the bottom of the action is machined flat and a separate slip-on recoil lug is provided), and the #4 trigger assembly used on the AV's is replaced with a Tikka type trigger. Production ends in 1996.

1997, Introduction of the 75 model (75th anniversary of the company). Stoeger is still importer for Sako.

2000, Beretta takes over Sako and importation.

2006, sometime soon? Introduction of the 85, a controlled round feed version of the 75.

Live Oak :

I have an AI Actioned SAKO Hunter chambered in .17 Rem Serial No. 814xxx. The next highest AI Serial No. that I have seen was 187xxx, which I believe was made in 1989 or later (2 piece floor plate, 6mmPPC chambering). Any idea what the jump in Serial No.s signified? I know that the S491 Action Serial No.s started above 800 000, and the finish on the 814xxx Action is very similar to the S491 Action, but the dimensions and design are all AI. Thanks.

rollinghills

One thing you bring up that I forgot to mention was the cost-cutting on the floorplate assembly - Sakos up to the early AV's (and smaller action variants) had one peice machined floorplates. Later AV's, L691's and 75's have a two piece floorplate/trigger guard held together by a couple of screws.

Rollinghills, unfortunately I am not up to speed on the later serial number ranges - if you ask the question to Daveg 7mm-08 on the Sako Collectors Club he might be able to tell you.

Oops....I said L62R which should have been L61R. The Pre Garcia and 78-82 rifles intrigue me. The Bofors steel mark ended in 1968 because of a patent infringement. However the Sakos made from 1968 until the takeover by Garcia were still the same quality. In fact, the "Bofors Steel" deal was just a marketing ploy anyway.....all the steel came from the same place. Bofors referred to the 40mm Bofors AA cannons made in Sweden and copied by the allies in WWII. That being said, the holy grail of all Sakos are still the ones marked Bofors Steel on the barrels. Now, the 78-82 rifles may be the looked over hidden gems. Stoeger, in an effort to bring Sako back to respectibility, made these fine firearms for only 4 years. Some of the wood they used is sensational and the metalwork is superb. You used to be able to pick up these rifles for a song.....not anymore. They also made the last of the Sako Mannlichter carbines.....the Germans loved them. The only new Sako I own is a NIB 7MM STW that was only made for one year so I consider it a collectible. I don't have the gumption or desire to actually fire the thing because it is truly beastly. As a side bar, my son Eric has a nice early Garcia (thanks dad) that is a one hole 30'06 so don't let anyone tell you the Garcia era rifles were not accurate.....as a matter of fact, they lenghtened the freebore and you can shoot all the premium super bullets in them. I have rambled at nausium....one thing for sure....I love my Sakos! Regards, Rick. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I could be wrong but I have never seen the L46 called Vixen or the L57 called Forester in print. I have both and nowhere do those names appear on either action. Old Gun Digests do not have those name in their description.

I also have an L46 single shot in 222. This is a neat little action with a solid bottom. Interestingly they were sold only as barreled actions. The one I bought came with an MPI glass stock that someone had the bedding all messed up on.

Have any of you ever seen an L46 in Hornet or Bee? Been looking a long time and have yet to comr across one. Pete

Pete, I can't speak to the L46, but I do own an extremely rare Sako deluxe L57. It is marked Forester on the barrel but there is no pine tree in the grip cap, just a white diamond similar to what you get on a Weatherby deluxe. It looks, based on serial numbers, that less than 10,000 L57's were made in their two year run before they were redesigned as the L579.

Live Oak,

This has been a very interesting discussion! I do know that Colt marketed rifles on the L-57 action, (marked "Coltsman") But I am wondering if Browning did, as well? I think I know where there is a "Coltsman" in .243 Win.

Reason I ask, is that I have an L-57 in .308 which has been rebarreled. The barrel is marked Flaigs There are no other markings on the rifle except on the action L-57 and the serial # 76xx. The rifle has rather nice wood, Monte Carlo stock, with white-line spacers and rather squarish fore-end.

But intrestingly enough, the butt pad is marked "Browning"!

The gun is fairly accurate, but I have too many .308s. I originally intended to have it rebored to .358, but since have come up with 3 rifles in that caliber. Am now entertaing the idea of rebarreling to .25/.284 <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Grasshopper

Sakorick,

Do you know if SAKO ever bulit any rifles using FN actions? I know Browning used SAKOs for their short action calibers, but did it ever work the other way around?

Guy up here has a 300 H&H on an FN action. Barrel is clearly marked as such in the typical factory roll stamping, both the caliber and SAKO.

I am wondering if it is a SAKO barrel refitted to an FN by someone, or if SAKO built the rifle. Either way, it is very well done. Stock looks like a typical Browning Safari model, but is not the high gloss bowling ball finish they came with.

Ted

I'm pretty sure it was the other way around, FN/Browning used Sako actions for a while.

Ted,

Yes, prior to 1961, and the Sako L61R long action, Sako's were indeed built on FN long actions. The 300 H&H was one of chamberings.

Bob

Ted,

Yes, prior to 1961, and the Sako L61R long action, Sako's were indeed built on FN long actions. The 300 H&H was one of the chamberings.

Bob

I worked for Stoeger as a regional sales rep from late '82 to late '88, and was in the plant in '84 for an extended customer tour and company moose hunt.
Everything I've read so far in this thread makes pretty good sense from what I remember except the introduction of the "Hunter" series - rounded forearm, palm swell etc, was not until the selling/booking season in 1986. During my plant tour in Oct 84 we were still arguing Yes/No over the palm swell. The merger with Tikka had taken place the first of that year and I thought the palm swell made SAKO's feel too much like a Tikka, and there was a n arument over whther or not Stoeger was going to get tikka to sell...instead the partnership between the SAKO people and the Spanish family that owned Llama began to split up whrn the Finns wanted to reorg Stoeger and dump the father/son run group that had taken over from Garcia and re estabvlished the SAKO name and hire an American Army colonel who was "wired" at the SAKO plant and was retiring from the Army. Two years later the guy who ran the Tikka distributorship in the US, who had come from High Standard and later I understand went to Savage, was made the president of Stoeger and the end was in sight for Stoeger. The Finns wanted to lose SAKO and concentrate on their other holdings like Nokia.
We still had inventory of the square forend guns in Standard Grades for the '86 booking season, plus in '85 we sold a short 2 season run of an oddball promotionally priced high polish blue Deluxe Grade barreled action in a plain oiled finish stock in 4 calibers - 270, 7Mg, '06 and 300WMg- one of my current business assocaites still has the 300WMg I sold him thru a dealer buddy...what an ugly gun but it shoots like a SAKO. I can't remember what the model designation was maybe 7500's??. The barrel diameter in the Hunter Series is also different than the older Standard grade, much thinner.
SAKO also built a carbine length configuration on the Hunter Series called a Handy Rifle in half a dozen calibers including 375, and killed the Fullstock's production.
When I left the company the fall of '88 I had a small collection of early super quality wood Classic Grades I let get away from me during a very rough patch of medical bills in late '90/early'91 that included a 1 of 300 223 - there was supposed to be 300 each of 17Rem, 222, & 223 but the 223 was only one to reach full production with Stoeger selling all they could get, but in the 17Rem only getting about 125 gun due to poor sales, I also had a pretty common 243 & 270, plus a non cataloged 1 of 13 300 WMg that I hunted with, and I brought home from my plant tour via Stoeger the only 25/06 ever made up to that point in a stock I hand picked from inventory, when I couldn't get them to build me a 257 Roberts. I also had made up for an order I took at the Dallas Safari Club show for an Alaskan Guide Co in about '86 a couple dozen 375's in the then new FiberClass stock with 20" barrels. There was something funny about the sling stud placements but the details are fuzzy. Seems like the Guide Service/Outfitter's fishing guides wanted something they could wear muzzle down, for a light carry weight bear stopper, where the butt would not extend over their shoulders and get in the way of a fly rods back cast...I kept one for a sample for a year or so and shot it as a demo - one of the nicer perks!...the bark was "substantial" and I use to clear the bench at the local Dallas range easily with it "barking" under the steel roof ...and 300's would slide my fat butt off the stool with regularity as the gun only weighed about 7 1/2 pounds rigged and loaded but not at all bad to shoot kickwise...I learned to just let it "lift" me up about 6"s off the bags with my feet behind me in a Linebacker style crouch...no muss no fuss and no fat butt and backside on the concrete like the first time I shot it. Oh it had a SAKO hooded blade front and a Williams ramp for Irons, and with a cheap scope I'm embarrassed to admit to it would hold 1 1/2" groups all day...but that little 1x4 Jap Tasco never wobbled or broke - sold it to a local PD for $35 bux years later!!!...I just had trouble with it sliding in the rings and finally just left it lodged against the turrets on the rear ring. LOL Ah the good ole days
Ron

Grasshopper ,you have a gun made by Flaigs of Pittsburgh, PA. They were a very high quality gunsmith for many years.

Pete in Idaho, there was a riihimaki in 218 Bee on gunbroker earlier this spring. It was being offered at about $950.

Hello Ted. No, it was the other way around. The Belgiques used the Sako actions. Very very nice firearms IMHO.....better than the Browning action that they were trying to modify from the Mod98. They should have just kept the basic mod98 bolt with the streamlined shroud like Parker Hale and been done with it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Regards, Rick.

Rick,

Although Browning and FN used Sako short and medium round top Sako actions; prior to 1961 and the introduction of the L61R, Sako did indeed use FN supplied actions (1950-1958)for their long and magnum rounds (270, 30-06, 8x60S, 300 H&H and 375 H&H )

Bob

Bob is correct. A friend of mine had one of these in 270 - a very nice rifle it was, too.

There is a photo and description of this model in the 1959 'Gun Digest' in the section 'Foreign Arms in America'. On the same page there is a photo of a rifle designated 'Sako Forester', described as, quote: 'A new rifle using the Sako L-57 medium length action ...'

Hope this info is of some interest.

Red

(I won't say what the stated prices for these rifles were - they make one want to weep!)

Maybe y'all could help me pin down my little Sako I picked up a few years ago. It is a mannlicher carbine, .222 Remington caliber. The left side of the action reads "L461 No. 1117XX"
Left side of barrel reads "VIXEN made in finland"
Top of barrel above chamber is "SAKO Cal .222"
Right side of barrel reads Bofors Steel"

It also has some unique scope bases, They are 2 pc. bases with redfield-style rings, and a flip-up peep attached to the rear base. Are these Sako mounts?

The stock is monte carlo, with white spacers. Also it is actually two-piece, with a barrel band and a nose cap.

From what I've gleaned from the previous posts it was made '61-'72, and is "pre-garcia".
Am I correct?

msj348,

No, the bases are Redfield. Your 222 Rem was made between 1968 and 1971, so Yes, it is pre-Garcia.

Fine rifle you have!

Bob

Thanks guys! I have told my friend about this thread and he has taken a look at it. Maybe he will post a picture or two. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Ted

Hello msj348. You have a rare firearm. It is indeed a Sako Vixen made in 1968 and one of the very last ones to be marked Bofors steel. The rings are not Sako. Sako rings were one piece and stamped Sako. They came in low, medium and high. Many of the after market rings made for Sako damaged the ramps. I wished I could see a picture. What kind of shape is it in? Regards, Rick.

Bob and Sakorick,

Thanks for your help! I had always wondered about when it was made, but never could find much info about it. I had remembered Jim Carmichael had some nice things to say about them in The Modern Rifle, then a few years later I spotted this trim little rifle on a gunshow table in Houston and snatched it up. The stock has its share of hunting dings, but otherwise its in fine shape. It had a Leupold 6x when I bought it, which I later replaced with a Leupold 2x7 compact.

I really like this Sako, It makes a very handy varmit gun. Compact size, and a great caliber. I had always wondered about the rings. Did Sako rings also have a flip-up peep? It has a ramped, post front sight and no provisions otherwise for a rear sight.

Thanks,
Matt

Matt,

The only rear scope base with a pop up peep that I am aware of is a Redfied, which slipped over the Sako dovetails. Most (though not all) iron sighted Sako's, had no rear sight provision as you were expected to buy a Sako made peep sight which slipped over the rear dovetail.

However, I have seen and owned a number of Sako's with functional rear sights. Those pesky Finn's waxed and wained over providing us pilgrims with rear sights. But the Sako peep is a neat little sight, and a might easier to use than a rear leaf.

Bob

This is quite interesting. I'm learning about Sakos here and have dug a rifle out of the back of the safe that I bought from an estate 10 ys ago.
Its a .243, marked Forester and L579, with Bofors stamped on the bbl. Its serial is 769XX, so I guess that it makes it a pre-Garcia 60's rifle. Right? I always wondered what that pre-Garcia business meant. Now thanks to you folks I know more about the gun. Don

Don,

Yes, pre-Garcia, made in 1968 or so, as the Sako Collectors Club production documents read.

Bob

Thank you, gentlemen for the education.

I remember when in High school, down at the local gun shop, the "main" line of rifles he carried were Sako. I was infactuated with them. There were these 2 he had one in .338 the other in .375, I believe they were called Sako handy (???)
I think they had about a 20" bbl, and open sights. I know a guy could make one himself, but I sure would like it if they still made them, especially in a LH action.

The SAKO "Handi" rifles had 18 1/2' barrels and were indeed handy, but were extremely LOUD!

Ted

Boy I would like 1 of them!!

If you want an original, I'll keep my eyes open, but you can always just get a Finnbear or an L61, cut and crown the barrel, and reinstall the front sight. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Ted

Yukoner, I would love an original, but unfortunately I am a southpaw, and I would bet they never made one a Lefty!

I have a Sako AV in 375 H&H that has the Mannlicher stock, 20" barrel and is engraved on the floorplate "Alaska Guide 1 of 25. Bought a peep sight for it from Ted(Yukoner). Great little rig. Also have a really nice Sako Vixen L461 in 222 Remington Magnum with the Bofors Steel barrel

Allen, I think the FullStock 375 you have was from an earlier order, as the guns I took an order for were all in the new FiberClass stock. I seem to remember hearing about those FS 375's that had been customized when I placed the order with either Stoeger's cust Svc guy Rick or Chuck Lozito, who had been running Stoeger Canada. Lots of confusion in Stoeger in those days, with a whole series of all political and bad decisions, that led to the continual reorg and eventual sale of the company to Beretta. JMHO
Ron

Just get an original SAKO left hand rifle in any of the magnum calibers, and switch the barrel, mag box and follower from another SAKO in 375 H&H. They all use the same floorplate assembly and have the same barrel contour.

That will get you started, and at least all the parts will be original. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Ted

Yukoner I have a Sako action in .338 Win. Mag., I would love to have one made into a "Handy", but they are pretty tough to find.

I will check around up here and see if I can find a left hand SAKO.

That 338 could be made into a switch barrel outfit pretty easy. Get a second barrel in 375, lop it off at 18-19 inches, install a good set of irons and go! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Ted