So I am thinking about getting another rifle to be my truck gun at least all winter and spring while I am calving out heifers. Going to want cut barrel down to 16.5-18”, and will be using it on coyotes and hogs from up close to probably 400yds. Thinking of 223, 243, or 6.5 creedmoor and wondering which one is going to be affected the least with that barrel length? Thanks

Of those 3

223..

Get a AR-15, 1-8twist 18" with 77grain SMK, suppressed, Bushnell LRHS 3-12x44

Whichever make sure the muzzle is well out of the truck. Talk about loud. A suppressor would be nice if your not in an entirely rural area. All would work well but the smaller one is going to be quieter if all are at the same presser level, The 223 will be fine for deer and head shots on Hogs as well as the others. If deer are the primary target the 243 or Creed would be my choices. Heavy bullets in the 223 or others may not loose much velocity at all depending on load. I would start at 20 inches and see if that is good and then shorten in increments if needed as even the 223 will have a fair amount of muzzle flash and blast at 16" and the others more so. I can develop a flinch easily shooting the black guns the flash and the spring action in my ear is conducive to it for me.

Probably a 7-08 would be better than all those listed except a fast twist .223 with heavy bullets.

Maybe a 6.5 Grendel. It'd carry more than the .223 for the long shots.

Can't see the value in going less than 18" though. I'd get a shorter stock before I'd get a shorter barrel. Anything close to 13" LOP is plenty for me.

First off -- I don't have a prejudice toward/against any of the cartridges you mention.

Secondly - hogs out to 400 yds, I'd think you'd need punch and bigger holes.

Thirdly - Denton or Mathman etc. could explain this better than I. The larger the bore (caliber) the less velocity (speed) is lost by shorter barrel length.
Example of the principle - I had a 20" bll 308 W, yet I was able to get the same velocity w/ 150 gr bullets AS with 22"ers.

Bore Capacity can only be increased so much by added bll length >> to a point. In converse, a larger bore is less susceptible to velocity loss in
shorter lengths. HELP Denton <grin>

So, if you follow me, the 6.5 or even 7-08 will fair well in shorter barrel lengths.

Good Luck

Jerry

Are you killing hogs to eat or trying to eradicate them? If you don't care if they run off get the .223, if you're trying for DRT buy a .308. Both cartridges work very well in short barrels.

Me I'd just buy a Ruger American Ranch or M4-orgery in .223/5.56 and Load up some TTSX or CEB Raptors and call it a day.

6.5 Grendel Would Be my first choice; Think Howa or CZ527. Surprised no one has mentioned the 7.62x39 & 300 Black out. CZ 527 American would be my 1st choice in any of the calibers encouraged here.

If you are able to put a suppressor on the rifle then the 300 BLK may be your preferred choice for the job at hand. If you are not suppressing the firearm then a longer barrel should get serious consideration IMHO.

If 400 yards is likely to come into play much then I would go back to the 6.5 Grendel. http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthread.php?15423-Howa-hb-threaded-grendel

Ruger GSR.

6.5 CM RAR Predator, lopped to 19"

The 223 of those listed, I'd have to go 308 Winchester in a good bolt gun and work up an accurate load with 165/168 gr bullets to match a BDC reticle and keep a good range finder in the cab.

Not on your list (of course), but the first thing that came to my mind was the 7-08. The Grendel might do, but the notion of my pretty little 527 bouncing around in a gritty old truck makes me weep. Maybe the Howa? Not going to find Grendel ammo at the Western Auto either, if that's a consideration.

Not sure about the .223 at 400 as I'm still waiting for my first shot at a deer with mine, but ARs now officially leave me cold, having tried and failed to like them. You may be different. A suppressor would be nice, but apparently it's a looong wait for approval. This may be the only area in which I'm envious of the Brits for whom they're pretty much standard kit.

Those ain't hog cartridges.

I would prefer the 243 Win (awesome field cartridge), but would rather have 20" length barrel. All cartridges will perform on 18", 16.5" will work but may not feel as balanced as 18" or 20". 6.5 CM will suffer most velocity loss due to longer projectiles and greater bearing surface, which yields greater friction (there's a reason Hornady introduced the cartridge with a 26-inch barrel in their marketing), but all 6.5mm have this problem regardless of barrel length. It is one of a few reasons the 264 Win with a 24" barrel barely yields 270 Win velocities. This is not anything worth losing sleep over however. While the cartridges you mentioned will suffer a lower expansion ratio than typical due to shorter barrel length their powder capacities are not substantial enough to be of any real concern. Regarding expansion ratio (ratio of volume of powder in chambers [case volume plus bore volume in grains of water] to the volume of case powder in grains of water). As most already know its the reason most 3.4" cartridges (6mm-06, 240 Wby, 25-06 and magnums are on 24" barrels minimum, but several should be using 26" barrels and greater if looking for maximum expansion ratios and velocity/performance.

I already have a gun that does what you’re wanting, but it’s a 6.8SPC AR w/16” barrel, built light and simple and running accubonds. The short barrel doesn’t kill the SPC like it often does most 6.5s and smaller bores. It still holds onto enough velocity to work at 400, easily. Collapsible stock and 2-point, and I can ride or drive with it on me or on the dash.

No doubt without looking, overbore cartridges like the .243 have the most to lose.

But here's some tests anyway. The Creed fared much better than I would've thought. The heavier/longer 142 SMK only lost 101fps going from 27 to 18 inches. Case design?

https://rifleshooter.com/2016/04/243-winchester-effect-of-barrel-length-on-velocity/

https://rifleshooter.com/2016/02/6-...ngth-on-velocity-cutting-up-a-creedmoor/
The velocity figures on the Creed look low across the board though. Maybe tainted by powder selection?

You want either a 6.5 Grendel in a Howa Mini HBAR version, or

the Ruger American Predator 308 in 18" threaded.

......................................I will agree here and would go with at least a 6.5 mm with better bullet BCs and for reduced wind drifts at longer ranges. No personal experience with any shorty tubed 6.5s, but have considerable experience with my short barreled 300 WSM Ruger Frontier. Using many identical hand loads with varying powders, bullet weights and brands, it lost on average 4.5% in velocity during side by side chrony test comparisons with two 24" barreled 300 WSMs. Based on several articles I have read, 16.5" barreled 7/08 and 308s should give the same results. A 4.5% loss in velocity from a barrel that is 7.5" or 31% shorter than a 24" tube is excellent...

If the same above results can be gotten from a 6.5 mm, where the loss is minimal at say 5% on average or less (assuming you use a 16.5" barrel length) then imo, a short 'n handy 6.5 mm would make an outstanding choice followed up by the 7/08.

In theory the bigger bore size burning similar powder charges will lose less speed so the 6.5 should lose a LITTLE less speed in a shorter barrel. But it ain't enough to worry about. I've compared 308 and 3006 with barrels ranging from 18"-24". Chopping 4" from a 3006 will cost you around 100 fps. Chop the same 4" from a 308 and you lose about 75-80 fps. Yea, the 308 is more efficient, but the 3006 starts 100-150 fps faster. It is still faster with the 4" shorter barrel.

I'd shoot hogs, deer or Coyote with a 223 out to 200ish, Coyote much farther. If you're shooting hogs or deer at 400+ I'd go bigger, and I really like the 6.5 best of those 3. The 243 just isn't enough jump over 223. I'd not let barrel length effect my decision.

.338 federal

.350 Rem Mag

I have 35+ years of chrono data in my notebook, and the cartridge that seems the least affected by barrel length is the 7mm-08.

Back in the 80's in two different articles in different gun rags the authors sawed off 7mm-08 bbls in one and two inch increments. I believe they chose the 7mm-08 randomly, rather than by design, but both rifles showed surprisingly small loss of velocity as the bbl was cut shorter.

^^^This^^^

Personally I've got two truck guns for just that purpose. One is a heavy barreled AR 15 with a 20" barrel. I use a 62 gr Barnes TSX in it

My second is a short barreled 308 in the RUGER Gunsight Scout. I'm cheap, so I use 150 Rem Corelocts since the shoot 1/2" MOA in my rifle.

I'd think the Howa mini 6.5 Grendel would be a good fit for you.

I always wanted to build a 6br at 18" with a DBM but went .223AI at 21" instead as it just kinda fell in my lap.

Thanks for posting those links Dollar, interesting info. Haven't seen anybody do that in a while.

I'm rather petrified that you and I were thinking the exact same thing.

Any cartridge is a hog cartridge.

Thinking the operative phrase is "expansion ratio".

RD, I'm puzzled why you need a short barreled truck gun. Never had any problem handling a full size gun in or around trucks myself, but I don't drive dwarf sized pickups either. On the other hand, if a compact rifle is what you need give some thought to a single shot such as a Ruger#1 or TC Encore.

A Ruger American with a 16" barrel in 300 Blackout will do most anything reasonable. 110 grain GMX at 2395 fps and 125 grain Nosler BT at 2250 and one hole accuracy at 100 yards. Groups better than you would think at 300 yards, too.

Sorry Dan, but it is Bore Capacity. I have Denton's equation to figure it.

Bore Capacity = Bore Squared / 1000. ***edit << -- Bore Dia.*** Squared/1000

The problem w/JR40s comparison is the 06 & 308 use the SAME bore dia.

Smaller bores have LESS capacity than larger bores. ( duh really)
If you run comparisons 308 - 708 - 243, using the same CASE size you'll find the 'smaller' bores
Lose MORE vel (speed) in SHORT blls.


Casey (alpinecrick) verified what I suspected per the 708. That's one cartridge I've never had but I've experienced the diff in bore capacity using
358/308/243 enuff to have predicted the 708 would do well.

To All: I have no horse in this race.

Jerry

That's a common theme the 6.8 fans like to repeat, but it's not really true. The 6.5 Grendel does just as well with shorter barrels as the 6.8 SPC. If we're going short, I will (and do) take a 12.5" 6.5 Grendel over a 12.5" 6.8.

I have a RU77 Tang with 17 inch barrel in .30-06. Gets 1.25 or so groups at 100. I have killed with it to 356 long paces on fairly open ground. My hunting partner refers to it as my "long-range rifle".

I'll push it to 400, assuming I have a ranged yardage.(I didn't on the the 356 - that was an eyeball estimate @ 300 - the bullet clipped the sternum and opened up the heart - lucky shot - I now have a Leupold 800i rangefinder).

You don't need a small caliber for such range, necessarily. But I'll push my .MOA .260 to 400 on animals up to 250 pounds or so. I'll only push myself on anything to 500 with my '98 with heavy bbl (.30-06) t, tho it gets inch groups at 300 if I can hold it steady enough. It is a 1,000 yard gun probably, but I'm only good to 500...

I DO know the trajectories for the bullets I shoot in the calibers I shoot. That is far more important than caliber ... And knowing the range via rangefinder is even more so. But so is bullet/energy for the game targeted.

Uh - no - edit. Of equal importance...

Of all that said- for your uses, I would personally go no lower than .6.5 mm with 140 gr min. bullets if you are whacking things to 400 yards, and want clean kills.

If you don't care about clean kills on hogs, even as they are a pestilence, ......well....get away from my coffepot.

....and inside 400, it won’t matter. You’ll generally burn a bit more powder in the grendel. I just find the spc easier to deal with in ARs, though I’m a 6.5 fan. If I only loaded, and didn’t care about some other stuff, I’d probably run the SPC case necked down to 6.5. If it’s a bolt gun, grendel or CM, or bigger, all the way.

If you are not set on those cartridges I would go with a 6br with 18" barrel.

Keep your ear pro handy. I have never fired an AR in a truck but Travis has mentioned the brass gets flung into the heater vents. Personally I would want some type of light closed breach manually cycled weapon like a bolt gun with a 20 inch barrel on it.

Maybe a Tikka T3 lite in 308 or 260, I have never been crazy about the 243 but I guess with 100 grain bullets.

http://www.aihpa.com/Sponsor/Tikka_T3_Mag_Options/Tikka_T3_Mag_Options.htm

6.5 Grendel with an 18'' barrel

Jerry, I understood the distinction, but bore capacity is a component of ER and in context of this discussion I'm fairly certain one cannot ignore the broader perspective.

In a bolt action rifle, I think a .308 and a 20" barrel go together like peanut butter and jelly.

My truck or Mule gun while feeding or checking cows and windmill output is either a 20 inch short rifle in .30-30 or a 16.25 inch TC G2 Contender carbine in .223. The .30-30 is not quite a 400 yard gun, but the ranch is stocked for bad times. With normal rainfall, you would not likely see a coyote or small to medium size hog in the taller grass other than on hillsides. The Marlin is topped with a 3X, the TC with a 4X. Either does the job rather well. The TC is borderline to being too short. A longer barrel on it may be better.

Jack

Short, to 400?

20” minimum for blast and speed to expand on impact on long shots.
6 or 6.5 Cm with heavies made for hunting.
7/08 fine also. 140 AB, 150 NBT or ABLR

243 assuming good bullets - look at a 95 BT

For me- Under 300yd a 223 and 6.5G fine using good bullets.

Thanks for all the help, been looking at all the options you guys brought up, and low and behold got a deal on a ruger american predator in 6.5 that dont think i can pass up.

Next question is will it be fine at 20"?

Believe i can trade my father-in-law out of a youth stock to get the overall length down with that.

Reason for trying to get it shorter is my feed truck is an extented cab and my girls go with me 90% of the time and a long gun in the cab is a pain when there getting in and out of the truck so going to make a rack between front seats.

How does it shoot at that length? How far have you taken it

Laffin.....

On a spreadsheet he’s run it to 500.... but that’s as far as his local Excel range goes. He ain’t really wrong though, as that would be a pretty good choice.

I’ve got a 16” .223, an 18” RAR 7/08, and a 20” .260..... they all get shot rather frequently. If big hogs were on the menu, especially as a “truck gun”, I’d take the 18” 7/08.

220 Swift AI.

Ruger GSR in .308 Win, 16.1" barrel. You will lose about 170fps compared to factory velocity specs but more than adequate at 400 yards.

Just got a Vortex 2-7x Crossfire II Scout scope for mine. If you don't want to keep the ghost ring rear sight in place, a 4x would be awesome.

You might very well be right but....

........"Thanks for all the help, been looking at all the options you guys brought up, and low and behold got a deal on a ruger american predator in 6.5 that dont think i can pass up."


it seems he has decided on the gun & cartridge so it's a moot point.




then again you might not.

Have a goodun Dan


Jerry

Again, if me 20 min but I do like 21 for a handy all around

https://rifleshooter.com/2016/02/6-...ngth-on-velocity-cutting-up-a-creedmoor/

Thanks for the info, looks like 19" is a good number also according to there test.

With 120's the 19" looks good. With 142's, the 18 and 20 have very low SD.

If the question is what cartridge is least affected by a short barrel, I would vote for 22 rimfire or maybe the 45acp. I think the question should be what would be most effective in a short barrel.

Within reason the fastest cartridge in a caliber will still be fastest in a short barrel.
A 300 win mag will be faster than a 308. 16" or 26", apples to apples.

Now, how much recoil and muzzle blast you want, that is the question.

I remember a review on a Savage bolt pistol in 300WSM. It was equivalent to a rifle in 308, but, that pistol in 308, would have been behind the WSM.