A buddy of mine and myself was having a interesting conversation last night ...
We were discussing , Hunting cartridges that performed better in the field than they looked on paper ...such as velocity and such ..

We mentioned several .. Im just to start with one that I use personally for years ..
The 30-30 Winchester .. Seem like factory ammo use old school bullets that work perfectly for the 30-30 .. Open up great and pentrate deep ...despite being so old school ..

257 Robert's

I'll throw in the 6.5x55 Swede..In this new era of .26 cal hype its often overlooked in favor of the new kids on the block.Been hunting and shooting several Swedes for many years, their field performance on game is legend and way surpasses what a newcomer to the chambering might imagine just like the reliable old 7x57. Newer bullets and powders only add to its already decent terminal numbers..it'll be around many more years to come.

The 32 special has droped two deer for me on the spot with standard behind the shoulder shots using Rem Core Loc bullets. Kinda supprised me, but its alos oretty limited expiereance. One day I will take an elk with the same gun.

.35 Remington
25-06

.357 mag

+ 1

Ho-Hum cartridges I have used that killed FAST and far batter then the paper ballistics would indicate are:


300 Savage. Factory loads with 150 grain and handloads with 165 grain. Deer, Horses Cattle.
270 Winchester 150 grain Remington RN bullets. Deer, Elk, Antelope, Bear, Cattle, Horses. Cattle, One Moose.
8X57 Mauser Handloads, the best of which were 200 grain Nosler Partitions. Deer, Antelope, Elk.
303 British Hand loads with cast bullets of 195 grains, gas checked. Only 2000 fps. Deer. Mountain Lion.
44 magnum with hand loaded 240 grain soft points and many more with 260 to 320 grain hand cast bullets. Deer, Elk, Antelope, Bear, Buffalo, Horses, Cattle.
35 Remington with 220 grain hand loads. Deer, Bear.
357 mag revolvers with 187 grain hand cast LBT Gas Checked bullets. Deer, Antelope.
30-40 Krag with 220 grain round nose bullets. Deer.
7X57 with slow old 175 gr round nose bullets. Deer, Elk.

BINGO - especially since According to the 'Fire' the 270 W is gay !
I've been using the 270 since 1976 at least and in the mean time I've used a whole lot more. From my 'observation' only the fast Magnums have anything on the 270 and that.. AT DISTANCE.

I've seen the 44 M do 'WAY' more than I expected, particularly UP CLOSE. I've literally HEARD deer plop on the ground. NO exageration.


Jerry

To All,

SEVERAL "old school" & undervalued by "gun writers"/"noted experts" include .22 Hornet, .22 Savage High-Power, .244 Remington, .25-35WCF, .30-40 Krag, .32-40WCF, .33WCF, .351WSL, 9x57mm, 9.3x57mm, .38-40 (rifle & pistol), .38-55, .401WSL, .44SPL, .44-40 (both rifle & pistol loads) & .50-70 Government perform far better than their "paper ballistics" would make them seem to be capable of.

A personal note: One of the things that I find "more than somewhat amusing" is that several "experts"/publications "champion" the .357 Magnum in a rifle or carbine for hunting deer at moderate ranges but (often in the same publication) state that the old .351WCF, which is in ANY "factory loading" considerably more powerful than any safe loading of the .357 Magnum, is "completely inadequate for hunting anything larger than coyotes".

yours, tex

Great cartridge to start with.

Heck Jwall, I have made so many fast magnums over the last 50 years I can't count them and I have owned quite a few myself. Honestly, not one of them has beat the 270,............. even at long range.

The shoot a bit faster, and some shoot heavier bullets. All of the super mags should do more. But you really can't get "more" because instant death is still instant.

So far I have seen a performance jump in killing elk when I get to the 375H&H over the 270 Winchester, but using the 300s, a few 338s and some fast 7MMs I can't say I have seen ANY difference in the speed of the kills over a 270 in most cases, and the ones that were different were less effective because the bullets would not hold together.

If you use a Swift, a Barnes X or the heavy Nosler Partitions in a 7MM STW you have a rifle that kills every bit as well as a 270, but no better. And I mean no better at all. I have nothing against fast mags and I make them to fund my living many times.
But the truth is still true, and 50 years of building and using them has shown me what I am writing here.

If you need more then you can get from a 270, you don't need 6% or 10% more. You need a LOT more.

If we strip away the religion from our hobby and ask real-world intelligent questions, the truth come right out.



Here is the question:
What hunting situation exists where a 150 grain 270 bullet at an impact velocity high enough to make it expand is just not enough..............but if we add 100 to 150 FPS more, or keep the velocity the same and add 20 grain more weight to the bullet, its suddenly the death ray of Darth Vadar .......and it's the best thing the world.

Is there really such a situation anywhere............on any game...............at any range?



I own some big magnums. My 300 for example will shoot a 200 grain Nosler Partition to the same trajectory as my 270 shoots a 150 grain. It has more energy at every distance. It should kill deer, elk and antelope faster. So should my 338 Win mag with 250 grain bullets. Or my 325 Short mag with 200 grain bullets. They should kill faster!

30 years of experience has shown me they doesn't. They are every bit as good, but up to elk size animals they are not better.

I get exits and fast kills with my 270 and I have only one time ever had to shoot an elk 2 times with a 270. (I found I didn't really need to shoot the 2nd time, but the elk stayed on it's feet for a few seconds longer than I was used to so I shot again. The 1st round would have done it fine, but I didn't know at the time so I shot twice and hit both times)

I have been killing game all over the USA and in a few other country too for about 53 years now . As a rule I just like bigger rifles and bigger bullets. It's just a preference.

But to be 100% honest, I can't say I have ever seen one time with a 270 where I was disappointed, as long as a good bullet was used, and I am taking about kills from jack rabbits to bull buffalo and moose, and quite a few horses and cattle along the way too.

Most hunters establish their preference from some experience and a lot of reading opinions they like, and then they come up with a religious worship of a gun or a cartridge, and go on a life long quest to show all others are false gods.

Me......I like my big bores and I enjoy building them, hunting with them, shooting them in practice and I believe in their capabilities 100% but I am not dishonest enough to deny what I have seen over 1/2 a century.

And the truth is that if a 270 won't do, you'd better be looking at a 375H&H----- or even bigger. A 416 Barrett maybe.

If you can't do it with a 270 you either can't shoot very well or you are in WAY over your head. Or both.

The great wonder of the world. The humble .22 lr. Probably accounted for more critter kills than everything else combined.

^
^
^
^ There is probably a lot of truth to that statement.

The 22WMR, I think it’s really underrated. Kills better than it should

22 mag is one of the best poacher`s cartridge ever developed,and yes your right 22 mag. is very underated. some of us call a 22 mag. "critter killer" and the 22 mag anchors those critters dead with less noise too ! I have killed 100`s of critters and 22 mag works much better on medium size critters over a 22 L.R. hands down.

I always thought the 7x57 outperformed it's book values.

Oh ...I agree on all mentioned above .. Special "oh yes" on the 270 winchester with 150gr RN ....

And the 6.5x55 ... I had a Swedish Mauser that I rescued from a Bubbaized ...I finished it up .. pruned the tube to 18inches ..D&T'ed .. put a low mount safety on it .. had the bolt handled bent .. worked up a handload useing Hornady 6.5 160gr RN bullets .. It was a lightweight tack driver .. Killed several whitetails but never recoverd a bullet all where" Bang drops"... A fellow talked me out of it ... I alway planned to build another .. But I never did ... I went back to useing leverguns .. with the 30-30 leading the way .. and messed with the 270 Win with 150gr RN ... seemed like the 6.5x55 on steroids ...

I have thought seriously about a 6.5 Creedmoor .. and work up some loads with the Hornady 160gr RN .. those long high SD bullets just work ...I'd like to have a 18 to 20 inch carbine in 6.5 Creed .. and work up a few loads ..

I'd give a vote to my 35 remington.

300 Savage has got to be one of the most underestimated hunting cartridges ever. Lots of other interesting rounds mentioned!

Paper is paper, hide is hide, and the 'fire keeps burning.

Yep & 7-08 Big time...

Da bob.

S - Very Good Post.

I have to leave shortly. When I have time, I'll edit this & quote a few of the things you said -- I agree to the point that @ 200 lb White tail is largest game I've shot. I'll get back here as soon as I can. Thanks

Jerry

.300 H&H

I have always felt the 30-30 was the 2nd most over rated cartridge, right behind the 35 Rem. Both have killed a lot of game, wounded a lot of game too. The 6.5X55 and 7X57 predate the 30-30 by several years, are much better with about the same recoil and have been used to take every animal on the planet. Both the 30-30 and 35 Rem were a step backwards in cartridge development. The 30-30 is mostly an American thing and owes most of its popularity to the "Cowboy" movies that were so popular from the 1920's-1960's rather than actual performance on game.

For the record I own about a dozen levers, mostly in 30-30 because I like em. But I'm also a realist.

Exactly. A particular cartridge is going to do whatever it does whether it's fired at a target or an animal. As my old boss used to say every time I'd ask a question.......it is what it is. There is nothing magic about a certain cartridge, regardless of what one thinks.

What happens is that we are told that certain cartridges are outdated, and underpowered when compared to another one, when in fact they still work perfectly fine when used. Take a good look at the newest "fad" cartridge, the 6.5 Creedmoor.....it's a good round, but it does not kill a deer any better, or any deader, than the 120 something year old 6.5X55. The old Swede is still as good today as it was in 1894, yet people like to say it is one of those "just outperforms what it should do" cartridges. No, it does not....it does exactly what I should do, and that is work very well on both paper and hide.

JamesJr,

YEP. - The "old Swede" is EXCELLENT & does FAR more than it seems to on paper. = I know any number of people who have taken many large animals with that caliber, in Canada & AK.
(My old school chum's wife, who I've met a couple of times but don't really know, shoots the Swede very accurately & has taken virtually every sort of game that available for hunting in Northern Alaska.)

My buddy & his family, as home missionaries to the Native Alaskans, mostly "live off of their guns", as our little church has a limited amount of funds to support a large family (and laymen who go up there seasonally to help out with mission activities) up there. = Supporting 8 people for a year in AK (plus the laymen's "out of pocket" expenses), where most everything must be flown in is $$$$$$$$$$$.

yours, tex

22 Hornet
30 WCF

Right on ingwe 300 H & H... Plus the .30-30..

30-30, 32 Spl, 35 Rem

Agreed. I’ll also add the 30-30. My brother in law shot one of them long bodied hogs that would have went about 200-250 pounds with a 30-30. The flex-tip bullet hit the right hind quarter and pretty much penetrated the hog lengthwise with the bullet exiting in front of the left shoulder! Honestly, I wouldn’t have believed it if I hadn’t seen it with my own eyes. Also the .220 Swift, 25-06, 270 Winchester

45-70 Gov.! Old, slow, and extremely effective! memtb

Definitely agree with the .257 Roberts.

But I'll also add the .250 Savage with 100gn bullets.

I think that many of today's hunters are actually surprised that a cartridge with less than 3200 fps can actually kill an animal. But I think the truth is that any cartridge shooting a bullet of adequate weight and construction for the game it's used on, fired at an appropriate velocity for it's bullet construction, will kill very well if put in a vital place. And that includes the .30-30 inside of 200 yards, and a whole lot of cartridges of 2500-2800 fps out to 300 yards or so. I also think that most folks haven't read enough of Mule Deer's work to understand the 4:1 rule, and think that a cartridge that looks twice as big must shoot twice as far and kill twice as dead. Compare a .308 Win to a .300 Weatherby, and the .308 looks downright puny...but it still shoots a 150 grain bullet at 2800 fps, and that is no toy. .

35 Rem

This, long been a fan of 22 mag.... it's a giant killer....

I was waiting for someone to add the 250 Savage to this thread.

It's a lot of trying to sell an advantage for competition to hunting.

Core-lokts

My boy killed his first few deer with a .22 mag. Punched right through!

Those that I have used that were all out of sync with paper ballistics were: 6.5x257 (jap conversion), 30-30, 300 Savage, 308, and 338-06.

Jack

Hmm. The 223 has got a reputation as a wound-and-lose round, or simply "not enough gun". I've seen no evidence of this. Quite the contrary. Same with the 243. Another "marginal" round that has been pretty drama-free for me, and it seems to be effective for game far bigger than deer.

7x57 and the 7.62x39

And the Hawken .54 cal muzzle loader with a round ball & real black powder. None of that damn substitute powder, either.

I am not familiar with "4:1 rule" so please tell us what it is.

Otherwise, you are correct. We get surprised by how cartridges that don't stack up so well on a ballistics chart perform in the real world because our perceptions and expectations are out of whack with reality.

I try to ground myself with the realization that deer, bear, elk, and even bison were hunted either to extinction or to the brink of it in the southeast by pioneers and indians armed with muzzleloaders shooting a simple lead ball at low velocity probably 150 years before the invention of smokeless powder. Even so, I had trouble with the idea of using a 223 on deer when I first read about it on this forum 10 or 12 years ago.

I think at some point a writer opined that it took x number of "ft-lbs" of "energy" to kill a deer, elk, or whatever and it stuck. Even game and fish agencies made laws about what cartridges were legal to hunt with based on it. That created perceptions and expectations that lasted a long time.

All cartridges are better in the field than they are on paper.....

Shooters, on the other hand..... are typically MUCH better in print than they are in the field.

This!! I have been very impressed with the 357 Mag out of a rifle on whitetails. Hardly any recoil, modest noise, and kills deer very well. Near perfect for kiddos to use.

Szihn -

Well I started to EDIT your post and quote parts of it. I decided there is TOO much, to do that. Pardon me if I make comments relating to your excellent post.

1. I don't know you BUT I respect your experience of 50 yrs, of using 'many' cartridges on 'many' diff game animals IN different Countries.

I have ONLY hunted WT in 4 or 5 States but have used 243/6mm / 6.5X55 / 270 / 284 W / 7mm RM / 308 W / 30-06 / 300 WM / 8mm RM / 358 Win / and 35 Whelen >> ALL on WT. Even tho I've played w/ 338 WM & 375 HH, I did not hunt or kill WT with them.
(I don't think I've left any cartridge out ?, not sure tho.

THEREFORE I can't comment on the jump in performance using the 375 BUT it's not hard to imagine. What I'm about to say is NOT to disagree or contradict you.

Secondly on my part: UP until 2012 I hunted mostly on deer leases and was NOT concerned about deer running a little ways. Therefore I mostly shot the heart/lungs. I have seen DRTs and death runs with most of those cartridges.
The longest NECK shot I've made was a lasered 194 yds. I stood touching the deer and lasered BACK to my stand. I've made quite a few others but that is the longest.

ONLY once I shot a deer with a TOO frangible bullet <quit using that bullet after ONE time). I was in Alabama and shot a small buck at close range IN the ribs. The deer DRT--- with STEAM blowing up from the entrance hole. The bullet Zephyred (hand grenaded). It did not make it TO the off side rib cage.
YES - it was a bullet failure.
YES - I killed and recovered the deer BUT that performance IS not acceptable to me.

When I got serious about handloading and bullet performance - which was early in my handloading - I tested many brands of deer hunting bullets. I used so many diff 'media', kinds of bullet stoppers/testers. I learned which bullets that "I" do not trust on game.
I also learned NOT to use sand-- as a medium ! It's like putting a bullet against a grinding wheel. lol

2. I accept your experience & observations of cartridges and bullets on game LARGER than WT, because I have none.

My 7mm RM, 300 WM & 8mm RM will push 150, 180, & 200 gr N Partitions at the same 'trajectory' as the 270.

What I've seen is the animals INVOLUNTARY muscle reaction to being hit with the heavier bullets AT speed ---again RIB cage shots. I have had WT to run a little way from those 3 mags - have not lost 1 - AND I've had them DRT also.

I've seen them visibly moved sideways OR even backed up slightly.

Those things have lead me to 'think' the fast mags WITH controlled expansion bullets would be preferred >> on larger game.


Fast Forward to 2012. I'm hunting Private, Family property surrounded on 3 sides by other Private property I don't have to permission to trespass. Therefore I began shooting CNS. Well from 6.5X55 , 270, 284 W, 06 & 7mm RM they ALL have DRT. (dropped right there)
This yr. 2018 I plan to use my 6mm Rem. I haven't deer hunted it in several yrs because of the RUN and cross property lines. Now that I'm shooting CNS, I'm planning to hunt it this yr.

3. I don't expect to GET to hunt game larger than Elk. We don't have Moose or Griz. From another thread or 2, I've come to accept that the 30-06 w/PROPER bullets is dependable for Brown Bear. I have to accept 458 Win 's experience there.

I have been a USER, BELIEVER, & PROPONENT of the 270 W for many years.

What I like about the fast mags --- vel ^^^ 3100 fps is the FLAT TRAJECTORY. It makes longer shots easier and dependable which generates confidence.


Thanks Again, I do appreciate you relaying your experience and observations.

I 'think' I've covered what I wanted to but ...

Jerry

EDIT to ADD : In the Southern States where I've hunted - the average mature W T buck weighs 175-200 lbs. I weigh every buck whole that
I kill. 170-180 gets most of them. I've killed a couple 190 -- 200 lbs.

.338 Federal

It’s a sledgehammer on elk.

SPOT ON !!

Jerry

Many moons ago, I worked with a fellow who lived in what was then the best deer hunting spot in the county. He confessed to me that he shot deer for meat all the time, and that he used a 22 LR. I told him that I didn't care what he did on his own land, but that he should consider getting bigger rifle, as he said that he did lose one now and then with the 22. I saw several years later, and he told me he took my advice and got a bigger gun, and that I was right, that it did kill better than a 22. I figured he had got a 30-30 or something similar, but instead he told me he'd gotten a 22 Magnum.

At least it was a better choice than a 22 LR.

Hi Jerry

I just read your post and I think we see things very much the same way.
I also thought that a fast big bullet would obviously kill or "stop" a deer/antelope/ elk/moose/ bear/ (add your favorite game here_____)
and so I used the big fast magnums for a few years myself. It seems like a no-brainer.
But my experience is that more power is not always of any advantage. How that power is transmitted to the animal is more important. I have killed deer with a 458 Win Mag a few times and it was no where near as dramatic as those I killed with 25-06 and 270s Sure, the 458 has a lot more power. So what! it didn't seem to transfer to a deer. I had a big 45 to 50 caliber hole through the deer, but they didn't drop at the shot. They did't run far, but they didn't drop.

So my theory is that when you do enough damage to tissue, organs and cause massive loss of blood pressure you kill the game and the max you can do is an instant kill. The best you can hope for in the real world is for the game to drop instantly or within about 2 second of the hit.

Once we have something that gives 'bang-flops" most of the time, how is it possible to get "more effective"?

You can get gorier, and make more ugly holes, but is that "more effective"?

No. Instant death is instant. Drops in 0 to 2 seconds is about as good as it gets with any gun.

I have some fast magnums and I like them a lot. I have had a lot more of the m over the years too. I have killed a lot of deer and a few elk with them too. But I cannot say I have seen ANY difference in how fast they drop deer, antelope or elk over the ones I have killed and seen killed with the 270s. And I mean NONE at ALL!

On elk I can see a step up when I get to the 375. But what I find interesting is that the 375 is NO FASTER at killing deer and antelope than a 6.5X55, a 25-06 a 270 7 mag or a 30-06. My guess is that the elk is large enough to give the 375 some "time" to expand it's bullet and transfer more power to the animal, so that's why I can see a difference in how fast it put them down. But I will admit, it's a guess.

What is not a guess is that the 375 does seem to hit harder, but it is not all that MUCH faster then the 270 or 30-06 in putting elk down. A bit faster yes, and consistently so, but we are not talking about differences of 30 seconds. Maybe 3-5 seconds.

In my experience with the 270 MOST deer drop at the shot and those that don't stay on their feet about 2 seconds.

On elk the 270 seldom drops the elk at the shot if you don't hit the spine or neck, but the elk will fall in 5-6 seconds. ( Same results with 7X57 7MM Mag, 300 Mags, 30-06, 338 Mag and 8X57.)

With the 375 most elk simply drop, and those that don't stay up about 2-3 seconds. So yes, there is a difference, but not enough to really worry about.

I certainly would not advise someone coming to Wyoming with a 270, 7X57, 280, 308, 30-06 7MM mag 300 mag or 338 mag to go buy a 375 for elk.

In fact when non-residents come out to hunt I tell most of them to bring the rifle they shoot the best and make SURE they have bullets that won't come apart easily.

I would MUCH rather see a hunter come out with a 257 Roberts loaded with Nosler partitions, Hornady GMX or Barnes X bullets then come out with any 300 mag loaded with ANY Burger of ANY weight, no matter how accurate it is.

2 MOA with bullet that will go clear through is FAR better than 1/8 MOA with bullet that will come apart.

Elk are not the size of prairie dogs and are not very hard to hit. (Even deer are pretty big targets.) 2 MOA is enough accuracy to hit them at very long ranges. But they can be tough, and an elk can run a very long way on one lung. That's not a theory. It's a fact. You can trust me on that. I KNOW!

If you have a magnum and you shoot it well, use it. It will never disappoint. But it's because you use it well.

It's always 98% the hunter and 2% what he shoots.

If you focus on any piece of gear, focus on the bullets, not the cartridge case, not the rifle, not the scope not the bipod, not the paint job or any such thing. Bullets make bullet holes, and you want a hole that goes clear through even if it hit heavy bone. It's the hole that doing the killing. The bullet is only the tool used to make the hole.

After that I say to concentrate on your marksmanship from field positions and get away from the bench rest. Learn to shoot the way you'll have to do it in the field, and everything else falls into place a lot better and easier.

Ok....rant over.

RJY66, as I understand it (I'm sure Mule Deer can provide a more clear explanation) the 4:1 rule said if a cartridge uses 20% more powder than another, smaller cartridge of the same caliber/bullet weight, it will only yield 5% more velocity, as 20/4 = 5. So when looking at the .308 Win (approximately 40 grains powder used) and a .300 magnum that can use 80 grains of powder, though the magnum holds 100% more powder, it will yield approximately 25% more velocity (ca. 2800 fps vs ca. 3500 fps with the magnum).

I've never hunted with the 223 ..but I was right there when I saw my buddy's son , he was 10 .. connected with a Whitetail @130yds with a single shot Rossi in 223 .. He hit it a bit high but he hit its spine .. knocked a vertebra clean out its back . Left a exit hole that couldn't be covered with a coffee cup .
The Whitetail fell dead in its tracks ..

I won't move a buck whole one yard so I've never weighed any whole. I've weighed plenty with their guts out though.

S z

, I understand and agree that WE are very close to having the same opinion EXCEPT per the 375 because I have not used it.

IF I get to hunt Elk, I have Nos Partitions for ANY rifle I might choose to take. 270, 7mm RM, 300 WM & 8 RM - even the 06.

I have NO need for the 300 WM here, BUT I like the cartridge and love the gun. What can I say. I'm comfortable and confident with it having killed several WT. Actually The First Deer I shot with the 300 was the largest bodied deer I have killed to date. I used it exclusively from 2008-2010 -- 3 seasons. No deer lost, No second shot needed.

Thanks for your time and relating your experiences.

Good Shooting, Good Hunting

Jerry

Mike -

"I won't move a buck whole one yard so I've never weighed any whole. I've weighed plenty with their guts out though."
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Where I've been hunting it has been NO problem getting a 4 wheeler or truck close to load. I just like KNOWING how much the deer weighs whole. There are % and theories about how much a deer weighs whole AFTER field dressing. Some are NOT right.

I do just because I want to.

I NEVER and I mean NEVER unload my wheeler UNLESS, UNTIL I go to retrieve a deer.

Jerrry

257 Roberts
GreggH

Ok, not a cartridge...

0.54 caliber lead round ball out of a 1:66 to 1:72" twist, 36" long barrel, over 75-90 grain ffg blackpowder flintlock barrel

or, 12 gauge round ball load.

Pretty basic shooting systems, but deadly.



For metallic case cartridge?

30-30 with 170 grain jacketed, or 195-200 grain, gas-checked, flat-nose cast bullet sized .311" @ 1800 fps ( ie RCBS 311-180 made by Night Owl Enterprises).

I was waiting for someone to mention the 7.62 X 39.

Another vote for the 257 Roberts, seems to knock the snot out of the few deer Ive shot with them.

I ran this same question on another hunting forum and the two most listed cartridges were the .257 Roberts and the .44 Magnum. I would concur with the op on the .30-30 as well. As a kid my first buck fell to a .30-30 and it just fell over like a rabbit. It just stands to reason that the ammunition companies load a whitetail rated bullet into a .30-30 whitetail rated cartridge. If you loaded that same 150/170 grain .30-30 bullet into a faster .30 caliber magnum you would have a bomb. It is the same reason that you won't find a 180 grain round nose Core-lokt loaded into a .30 caliber magnum larger than a .30-06. Our entire deer camp used that round nose Remington bullet for a number of years and we never lost a deer hit anywhere with that bullet. One day without much else to do I tied up a bunch of phone books together and shot into it with a .308 180 round nose Core-lokt and into the same stack with a 180 grain pointed Core-lokt. The round nose was punching a thumb size exit hole out of the first book and the pointed Core-lokt did not catch up to that size exit until the third book. The pointed bullet also penetrated farther by a couple of phone books than the round nose.

The plastic tipped bullets are opening faster now as well and just in the last few years they have started manufacturing "deer" bullets with an even larger plastic tip or thinner jackets. A deer on average is only about a foot wide and lots of the magnum loaded bullets are designed for larger animals. I've killed deer with the 7mm RM and .300 WM and in my experience, they didn't even work as well as that first .30-30 bullet did back in my youth.

Agree with .257 Roberts, would add 7mm-08 and .35 Whelen

I like the 250 SAV with 87g HC and Win PP in 300 SAV

358 Win.
I have taken deer out to a bit less than 200 yards but up close it will kill anything it hits.

yeah but that has never stopped the spin merchants attempting to influence the naive and gullible.

Agreed.

Have to agree with DropShot. I've only taken one deer with my 358 Win but it dropped as quick or quicker than any rifle I've ever used; 25-06 or 300 Win Mag. Mine is a Ruger M77 and is accurate, fairly light weight and is a great little rifle and caliber for hunting.

Glad to hear the old 358 Win is still used by more than just me.
I have killed bear,hogs,deer and never had to shoot twice at the same animal.
I like the old 300 Savage also.

Other than you and me, I wonder how many others have actually hunted with the .257 Roberts?

Me...used the Bob and the Better Bob ALOT. Can't ask for better performance.

POI/angle counts for almost everything. What you like is most of the rest.

I first heard, many decades back, the "kills better than it should" by someone who killed a charging lion with a .243 as he had no choice.

Someone else, (Carmichael maybe?) took a trophy class Cape buff with a .338WM wit 250 gr. (Partitions probably) when offered the chance while hunting other species, and seemed impressed by the feat... one shot did the deed.

I've not noticed any real difference between the .243 and the .338WM in my own big game taking.

I can tell you tho, the .375 is hell on middle of the night porcupines chewing on the tent-cabin frame when they take a tree.

Another vote for the 338 Federal, its a sledgehammer on anything. I've taken a lot of game with it since it first came out, up to and including bison and bears. Amazing that its not more popular, IMO its the best cartridge to be developed in the last 50 years. The 358 Winchester is great too, and I've taken a lot of game with it as well.

Good Post

25-06 for me but all these listed are good ones. Really for me the 25 callibers, 250 Savage,257 Roberts and the 257 Weatherby, have performed better than I expected. The 22-250 looks good on paper and has been every bit and more so I would have to put it in there too.

I am in awe of how well the old cartridges were designed and work looking at technology now & then.

My Ruger M77MkII in 257 Roberts is my favorite deer/antelope combo

I vote for any cartridge running at roughly 50K psi or under. This would encompass the Swede, 7x57, .30 carbine, .30-30, .300 Savage, etc. They got stuff dead long before our march toward, "a little bit more."

Plus, I don't like recoil, and I hate muzzle blast. Makes me wonder why the hell I like this sport...

FC

Back in the early 70's I shot the 257 Roberts and killed everything I shot at if I did my part.
I had a load for a 100 gr Interlock at 41 gr of IMR 4350,I could have loaded for more speed but I never needed it.
The 117 gr Interlock also was used some on larger tougher animals like hogs.
A strange thing happened with my 257 Roberts and 300 Savage,7x57 and a few others,everyone laughed at me for having such a slow and weak cartridge so I magnumized and regretted losing most of my favorite and most accurate shooters.
Man I wish I had them back.

When you figure that the ammunition companies need to tailor the .257" diameter bullets into a very narrow velocity range for the 117 grain bullets between the .257 Roberts and the .25-06 for the most part is it any wonder that they expand perfectly on the deer size game that most people hunt with those two cartridges?