I’ve started load development for a recent hunting rifle purchase and basing it on the following:

Rifle Belgium Mauser. 1952 commercial rifle
cases Lake City Military Brass
Primers Federal 210M
Powder H4350
Bullets Barnes 150g TTSX

I loaded two sets for a speed check and noticed that using 59 grains of H4350 if was right a 3,000 FPS. Haven’t starting shooting for accuracy yet but wanted to get in the 2,900+ range for a hunting load. Hornady book says I’d get 2950 using 61.6 grains of H4350 so I was a bit surprised that I’m getting the speed that far off of the book max charge. Primers look fine so I’m not concerned about pressure just curious as to the big discrepancy in charge weights. I’m usually getting less speed than book. Is the smaller case capacity of the Lake City cases helping drive the faster speed?

Thanks in advance for the feedback.

You are going to have to travel your own road to some degree, because velocities vary in any group of rifles you try with the same chambering.
This is exacerbated by the slight variation in powder, primers and sometimes, bullet batches.

I have loaded for quite a few .30/06's with quite a few more powder batches over the years enough to say, that I have loaded up to 64 grains and still been in the right area for top end velocity at 3080fps. Some powders do slightly more but most slightly less.

Hornady's load is close to the mark in my experience, as I load 62gn in my current .30/06 and again, depending on the batch, has produced velocities up to 190fps in spread over the years. The good news is that it is H 4350/AR 2209 so it is a good powder for this cartridge, temperature stable and more often gives great accuracy when peak loads are determined.

I have found that Federal 210's giver the highest velocity and CCI 200's the lowest with 150 grain bullet weights and there is nothing between them when the weight gets to 180 grains. Everyone else's mileage will vary, just wait.

Good luck with it.
John

I guess I'll be the first to give it a go. Why the fu ck do you think the Hornady load manual would be a good place to start with a Barnes bullet? You are right about the LC brass having less capacity though. Its thicker than commercial brass. I guess you can use the chit, but if it were me, I'd be using WW, R-P, Norma, Lapua, Hornady or just about anything else besides LC. Thats just me though, as I know a lot of guys love the chit... You also don't need a magnum primer for the 06 and H4350. A good ol CCI 200 will ignite the stuff just fine and you'll get excellent accuracy. Also, there are better powders for the lighter bullets (150gr.), such as Big Game and RL15. You'll find those listed in the Barnes manual for the 150gr. Tsx.. Barnes also uses Winchester brass for their load development, for the 06..

Thanks for the feedback and I’ll check the Barnes info. The primers are Federal Match not magnum. I have RL15 but trying to work through my lifetime supply of H4350 of 20+lbs. Thousands of pieces of LC 06 brass from CMP matches collected over the years and I’m out of the SR and LR competition game now. Just using what I got and not looking for the optimal hunting combo just an effective one after all I hunt mostly in SC and NC.

My question came as I stated that I almost always had loads less that published. That came from tons of service rifle and target loads over the years and just noticed this one was much faster than a couple of the books. I’ll have to hunt a bunch of deer to eat into the H4350. Have other half lifetime supplies of R15, 4064, 4831, Varget, VV N540 if their vintage is better suited for the Barnes. I’m used to Sierra blems by the pounds and AMax for distance loads. Just don’t do the volume 7,000 plus rounds a year anymore.

Your velocity is about right, I don’t know where the manuals get their 30-06 load info or if it’s just seriously outdated. 59 gr of H4350 gives me a hair over 3000 with 155 gr Lapuas. If I were loading 150 ttsx’s I would be between 59 and 60 grains. 58 grains of H4350 gets me over 2900 with several 165/168 bullets.

What is your beef with the LC brass?

Maybe he'll give you a response with a little more class than 240NMC got.

I’ve always loaded 59 grains of IMR 4350 with a 150 Partition in my 30-06’s. Velocity is right at 2950. Accurate.
Is another 50 feet per second going to make any difference?

Mule Deer can explain the reasons better than I can, but published velocities for a cartridge can be all over the map.

It doesn’t take much to kill Carolina deer, so while I wouldn’t start with LC brass for a hunting load, it’s not a dealbreaker. The reduced capacity isn’t necessarily a problem, but it’s also not necessarily the cause of the higher velocity. The rifle could be responsible for much of that, so I have some questions:

• How long is the barrel?
• How long is the barrel? With some powders, this can make a big difference.
• How much has the rifle been shot?
• How do veolocities with other loads from this rifle compare to those loads in other rifles? Some rifles run faster than others. This may be one of them.
• I didn’t see H4350 listed in any of 150-grain 30-06 data on the Barnes site. Did you work up to that load? If so, then did you notice anything odd along the way?

Since you’ve met your + 2,900 fps goal, there’s no need to go hotter. I’d start looking for accuracy from here.

Years ago, I ended up with a lot of decent milspec 30-06 brass. I got 100 pieces of new WW brass and worked up a hunting load in that, then got a good zero. I loaded the milsepc brass with cheap FMJs and a modest charge of something, focused on offhand shooting, and looked forward to Opening Day like it was Christmas.


Okie John

Another alternative is 130's and Big Game. A 130 TTSX will penetrate thru a WT and will travel faster than a 150. For bigger stuff, maybe the heavier bullet, for WT's, hogs, 130's work very well.

Here's a factory HVA group with 130 gr. Council bullets, 59 gr. BG. I've had good results on WT's with the 130 gr. Hornady, good exit wound, lots of blood and major internal destruction, DRT.

These are bench rest Council bullets but Ralph says they do well on WT's, just never tried them.

DF

HI 240NMC

The nails head has been hit as far as velocities being all over the place and expectations. I'd like to touch on a previous point bullet choice. The Barnes TTSX is considered a premium bullet and where a recommend bullet weight for an animal might be x with a Barnes you can go lighter.

Here is an option for loading a 30-06 (again mentioned about)
130gr TTSX in front of 55 gns of VARGET seated .050 off the lands.

I am getting 3100 fps and it is dead on accurate out of two rifles I load. You will have to find your sweet spot but I believe this gets you the velocity you are looking for with a bullet I've used on deer and would have no problem using it on Elk.

Cheers
HaYen

HaYen youve got me interested in trying out those 130's

Barrel is 22 inches, Rifle is one of FN Herstal Belgium Masuers in 06. It still has a military barrel taper on the action and I guess it’s one the built commercial for export to the USA if I read the confusing Mauser history correct. It’s not a sporterized hack job. I got it late in the season so only ran some Corelocks through it and it grouped well. It was on Cabelas GL listed as unknown caliber. They gave me a deal at 4 bills so I put it in the rotation. Wood is good and I’ll post a picture later. It’s lightly used but no way to tell round count but bore looks good and it cleans good.

The LC is from the 5 gallon pales of it I have from past DCM/CMP matches when no one wanted it and for ten bucks you got a pale of once fired brass so I’m using what I have for a hunting load. Long shoot here will be 250yards max in a cut over and 80in the timber or power lines.

I used Hornadys medium load for 150s and the TTSX 150s. The H4350 is from my stock of 20 pounds (recovering match shooter that hoarded poweder) so I’m using it. I could use Varget as my go to Garand load was with Varget and have pounds of RL15 and 4831. I know there are better options and maybe better for my rifle but I’m just using up inventory and will try to get a load that works well in the rifle and my Pre64 M70 Supergrade whenever I feel the need to take it into the woods.

I also use the 150s TTSX in my 308 Ruger M77 RSI so again keeping it simple. The Ruger goes up in the trees with me when I climb and is sweet for that. It seams to like VV N540 but load development with the RSI is simple because it strings after the first two shots due to the wood and thin barrel.

I’m happy with the 2900 and was just surprised at how quickly I got there verses what’s published. As I stated earlier my experience is usually the other way, slower than book values.

Shot some more today and will start trying to dial it in bit more.

I have a couple thousand Lapua 170 g D46 bullets that came in a match gun deal and they shoot great but not the best hunting bullet as they punch a hole and keep going.

Thanks for the feedback and like the site since moving over from the Service Rifle and Match shooting community.

Please don't just take my word for it. There are others in the 24HCF family that will attest to either the performance of this load or at the very least the bullet. Now I won't go as far as to say use a 62gr TTSX in a 22-250 for Elk (yes you know who I'm talking about :-D ). But for me, that bullet, at that speed, within 400 yards (that short fatty actually drops a good deal after 300 yards), I would us it on anything short of a Bison here in AZ. YMMV

Hard to beat the combined experience on the fire for sure. For most of my shots on game the initial higher velocity flat trajectory out to 300 yards or so is not hard to suffer. I think I'll order a box of the 110 grain TTSX for the 7-08's to see how they shoot also.If nothing else its always fun working with new bullets.

Seems right to me. I ran H4350 in '06 a few years back and it worked just fine. Velocity and charge weight is what I got out of mine as well +/-. IMR 4350 and 4064 did well too. Not tough to get 3K out of a 150 in an '06. The '06 will digest many powders and produce acceptable accuracy and velocity. Especially if you are looking for minute of venison groups. I've killed deer with everything from 100- 220 grain in the '06, deer aren't that tough. H4350 is good stuff and can be hard to get with all us 6.5 Creed shooters grabbing it up.

As a general comment, I usually reach book velocity with lesser charges than stated in the manual when loading TTSX’s in several weights and cartridges. Like Mule Deer’s advice, I pay more attention to velocity over the chronograph more than visual signs, not that they are ignored. I load the 168 TTSX in my ‘06 over Big Game a bit over 2,800 fps. If I want to launch a 168 TTSX faster, I shoulder my .300 Weatherby and sent it 3,300 fps. I see nothing wrong with LC or any other brass as long as weight/volume is consistent. After all, deer never inspect the headstamp. Happy Trails
PS, I would also look at Barnes manual data online for the Barnes bullets being used to decide what your velocity range should be and check those numbers against other manuals for a sanity check.

Thanks again for the comments and feedback. Shot some more rounds on Friday and speed looked good with 59 grains of H4350 using the Magneto Speed. Reloaded another ten rounds and will reshoot for grouping. If it's a good hunting group, I'll call it done. Will give the resurrected FN Mauser from 1966 some exercise in the coming deer season. It was a Cabelas unknown caliber purchase for a low price. They said they thought it a 7X57 and said the owner's relative said it was an 06. I cast the chamber and it's an 06. Would have been happy either way.

Thanks for the details. I’d have no qualms about using any of the 4350s in a 30-06. Actually, all of the powders you listed would be fine since you’re not chasing top velocities.

Some of those older rifles shoot way better than they should with cheap factory ammo. I find that Federal’s 180-grain blue-box load (3006B) tends to be the most accurate of them, but is often on the slow side.

Sounds like you’re on the right track no matter what.

Look forward to seeing pics of your rifle.


Okie John

Unless it has lopsided neck walls (which hinder the assembly of straight cartridges) there's noting wrong with that LC brass. Simply develop your loads to suit its slightly smaller capacity and rock on. I've shot a bunch of LC match brass through my 308's and it has advantages for my factory chambers and the sizing dies I use. For example, a typical fired neck out of my rifles measures .344" across. A loaded round is about .338" and my Lee collet die sizes the neck to .336". So from sized to fired to sized is a .016" trip. In contrast sized WW brass comes in at .330". So from sized to fired to sized it's a .028" trip for WW. So if i don't need the greater powder capacity of the WW then I prefer the thicker variety.

[quote=28lx][quote=HaYen]

Thanks for tip on the 130s but I have a recently acquired Mannlicher-Schönauer in 270 that will take over the 130s for me. Been backing out of the black rifle match guns and aluminum chassis rifles and retooling with classic hunting rifles. Must be 50 years or older. Waiver given to the M77 RSI in 308.

No Picts cause I gave up on posting to this site as it’s a PITA but you all have seen the rifles before.

Necromancing this thread as I'm getting ready to do load development for my '06 with 165 grain Barnes TSX.

Looking at their load data, they show a *max* charge of 55.5 grains of H4350. Poking around though, there seems to be a pretty solid consensus that 57-59 grains is a sweet spot for the .30-06 shooting 165 grain TSXs. Is Barnes load data really that conservative or am I missing something?

They hold their loads to SAAMI pressures. It won't blow up your rifle if it likes 57-59 grains. I have found Barnes to shoot "fast" like Partitions seem to do. Just work up as usual, you'll know.

The very slightly smaller capacity of the LC brass doesn't really mean squat and I find LC to be pretty good brass, all in all. Of course you can opt for the Norma brass so you can stretch those primer pockets more easily! I do think 4350 (of any variety) is a little slow for 150's but, if you can get around 60 grains into the case, it will produce good velocity. 4451 would be another slowish powder which should work well. GD

That's what I figured. Will probably start at 55.0 and work up in .5 grain increments. They advertise 2825 FPS with the max 55.5 grain load, and I'd like to be somewhere around 2850.

Weigh a few empty LC cases and compare them to the weight of a few commercial cases (all trimmed to equal length). IF the LC brass weighs more it is thicker. They will have less internal volume and CAN give higher pressures compared to thinner brass.

Tracking on brass thickness. I'll be loading in RP, which from what I understand, is about average thickness and case capacity