My wife has two caribou rifles. She doesn't like recoil. Her original rifle is a Browning Micro Medallion in 223 that is scary accurate. Before people get mad we are careful hunters and this is North of the treeline and we haven't got in any trouble with the choice.


Still we have pretty much decided that 125 yards is the clean killing range of this caliber no matter what bullets are used. Past this we haven't been completely convinced even with good bullet placement.

I recently bought her a Stevens 325 (a Savage 340 look alike) in 30-30. This rifle also shoots like a bugger and needed a new mainspring and front sight and is now quite the peice of gear. I wondered how the 30-30 would compare to the 223 in killing potential so I begged the donation of several hundred pounds of unsold newspapers from our local paper and went to it.



left to right top row.

170 Hornady/ 170 CIL ST 170 CIL KKSP and the 225 Sierra lead only from my 358 Norma as a comparison

Second Row Left/Right

170 Hornady 64 Win PP 60 Nosler partition and 225 Sierra Jacket

Bottom Row Left-Right

125 Sierra / 125 Nosler BT (Mod) 130 Speer FN 150 Hornady Interbond (Mod)

I learned a fair bit. First of all most of the bullets gave adequate penetration for caribou. I measured the penetration with the soaked paper heavily compressed to be consistent and you could easily add 15% to the value to match up with other tests.

After 1" of penetration the 223 was already making a big wound while the 30-30 was only beginning to open (except for the 125 Sierra which opened quickly)After 3" of penetration the 30-30 and .223 made similar sized impact craters by 6" the 30-30 was still leaving a similar sized hole where the 223 holes had closed up considerably. In all I'd say that the 30-30 made 1.5 times the overall wound volume compared to the the 223. The second half wound volume was about twice that of the 223 where the first half wound volume was similar.

Below is my chart of findings

Bullet Speed Retained Weight %weightExpansionFoot Pounds Penetration
225 Sierra 2834ft/sec 143gr...64%...65x.78...4039ftponds..12" This from my 358 Norma with a known core shedder to test the media... Wound volume was enormous easily 3x that of the 30-30.
170ST 2043ft/sec...126 gr..74%...56x.64..1576ftpounds 10.8"
170KKSP 2204ft/sec..123gr..72%...52x.55caliber..1834ftpounds..11.4"
170 Horn 2068ft/sec..129gr..76%...48x.63caliber..1615ftpounds..11.7"
The 170 grain bullets offer very similar and consistent performance
150Horninterbond 2268ft/sec...139 gr..92%...73caliber..9" Point was removed to work to OAL
130 SpeerFN 2372ft/sec..107gr..82%..58x.61 caliber..1625fpounds..10.2"
125 NoslerBT 2246fsec..89gr..71%...50x.53caliber..1401fpounds...9.45" Again the point was removed to keep the OAL down
125 SierraSpitz..2491..108grains86%...60x.76caliber..1723ftpounds..8"

64Win PP 2862ftsec..50grains..78%...51x.52caliber 1164 fpounds..9"
60 Nosler Part...2938ftsec...44gr..73%.../41 caliber..1150fpounds.9.9"

Despite the low penetration I think the 125 Sierra has some potential..this was at close range velocity and penetration should go up as speed goes down. This ought to extend the humane range to 175 or maybe even 200 yards.

Guess we will retire the 223. for smaller stuff. It's traken about 5 caribou with no complaints but not surprisngly the old 30-30 is better. And yes I know that there are still better calibers but that old Stevens shoots the 125 Sierras into 1.5" open sight groups and will cycle empties through the magazine. The old girl has style. So does my wife come to think of it.

What's next, 7mm Magnum -vs- 50 cal Hawken ?

Come on now...these are two light rifles and I was interested to see how they compared. Both are considered iffy for big game by some (The 223 perhaps by most) and I was curious to see how they stacked up.

Nice pics and comparisons. Thanks for posting the pics to allow others to come to their own conclusions on what bullets work for their situations.

What wheres the 53 TSX's?

Both will take out Bou's no bout adoubt it.

For me if it were a 30/30 or my lil 223 I would take the 223 and my 53 TSX's and go a hunting.

But, that is just me.

Thanks for the time and efforts

Mark D

Good job and post! Thanks!

yeah, good post.
i like the bigger hole produced by the .30-30.

Very good post, North61. Thanks.

Very good post.

I like 30-30s for deer sized game.

Tho' Stick tells me a 223 will do . . .

BMT

North61 -

Excellent post. Nothing like real data, even if it is not on flesh.

Nor..,

When Clinton said AR-15's had no sporting purpose, I bought two. Wanted to see for myself. My reasoning was that a .223 would be O.K. if I used it at 30/30 ranges. Guess what? It was. At 50yds the .223 smacked deer as well as a .270. Killed two. End of experiment.

Sold my H-BAR because it was no more accurate than my CAR-15. No longer hunt deer with a .223, but if I have to , I know I can!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I wish all states would make it illegal to hunt big game with anything smaller than a .243 Winchester. The .30-30 is the clear choice.

Swampman-if you add to your post that it is the clear choice for you then I would agree.

Mark D

The last thing we need is our state telling us that we can't kill deer with 22 caliber rounds..... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Many a deer have been taken at the hands of good marksman with the 22-250, 223, 222, and 22 hornet.....myself included.

I've killed a number of them with 30-30's too, but I wouldn't rank the 30-30 as making them deer any deader than the 223 and 22 hornet kills either......

They're all stilllll......not breathing.

A 223 boltgun is typically far more flexible than the Turdy-Turdy.

About the only accolade I could bestow the 'Turdy,is that they kick very hard,for whatcha get performance wise.

That very well may soothe some,though I'm not amongst those ranks......................

They kick hard? Please....

They typically exhibit the [bleep] stock designs knowed to man,replete with metal buttplates and that in conjunction with their typically modest weight,do accelerate felt recoil values as per relative "Ooooomph" ratios.

You said please and there it is...................

The .30-30 has taken just about every big game species in North America for a hundred years and more. Just have to get close enough so that you are delivering enough energy to the target, and use tough heavy bullets for really big game.

As for the .223, I think it would be a joke on the kind of game you are talking about, though I suppose if it missed bone, it would reek havoc on a large herbivore's innards.

Do I hear muzzle break anyone.........grin

The Turdy-Turdy is as lackluster as they come.

Would take an SKS before slumming that low and bank the negligable recoil to boot,as well as cheapaloo practice fodder and the bayonet.

Laffin'......................

...I've killed deer with the 22/250.Centerfire .22s are legal in my state of Georgia. I've used Trophy Bonded Federal loads (60gr bullet). These loads are efective but i'd choose the 30/30 as a safer margin of lethality for game the size of whitetails. I haven't had any bad memories to report with the .22/250 but suspect after disecting just two deer I killed with it,that a slightly errant hit could bring a sad story,at least to wittness. I've choosen not to use the 22 anymore because of my misgivings. I respect whitetail deer so much that in my golden years of deer hunting i'm particularly careful to do all I can to keep a CLEAN kill record..I have known a fellow deer hunter who used the 22/250 nearly exclusively and always got his deer without mishap. He was a superb marksman,and a disaplined field shot,who kept to ribcage double lung shots,passing on iffy shots that a heavier caliber would likely have made into sure and quick kills.

I'd say if the guy has taken 5 caribou already with it.....it's hardly a joke.

Wouldn't necessarily be my first choice, due to the size of the critters, but it's hard to dispute the facts that he's killing them with it.

The biggest muley that I've shot was with a 22 hornet.....
One shot.....bang flop.

Now.....you might be asking, "where did you hit him?".

Right behind the eye.....midway between the eye and ear.
He was out about 90-100 yards and never wiggled. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I suppose If I'd been shooting a bigger magnum or dirty 30, the other two bucks wouldn't have stood around so long wondering what happened to Walter. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


All these cartridges vs. cartridges discusssions never cease to amaze me, since there's always something you can't kill with the lesser cartridge.

You can't kill Elk with 243's. You can't kill deer with 223's. You can't kill Grizz with 7mm-08's......Come on.....

You don't need a friggin RPG to kill animals.....just learn how to shoot for god's sakes.



Alright.....even though I've got more than a truck full of ammo through a 99 Savage in 30-30.....I'll knock it just one more time.....

How many bolt-guns......ya know the ones have a nasty habit of being accruate, have you seen chambered lately in 30-30????

Okay....I'm done <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

2nd TG1 "All these cartridges vs. cartridges discusssions never cease to amaze me" Me either!~ 223 - 243 - 30-30 -BMG . I just like the bangflop sound.

Good comparison!

Looks like you put some effort into it!

To me it looks like the 30-30 with 125's or 150's may get the call.

Let us know how your hunt goes!

Good comparison and both very useful and reliable caribou rifles.

And if you don't mind, I'll throw in a couple of my own pics since we all know the 223 is too small for hunting relatively light ungulates just as the 30-30 is too weak for the bigger ungulates. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />



These were pulled from the back side of one caribou after busting through one scapula. They are 64 grain Power points fired from a Ruger M77 - 223. I have killed a number of other caribou with the 223 though many locals put me to shame with the effect they have with their's. I have only taken a single animal ('bou) with a 53 X and it dropped him in his tracks even though the hole was entirely unspectacular.



These were pulled from the end of 16-18" holes in the front part of the chest/shoulder area on a moose I took a few years ago with a Winchester M94 30-30. The bullets are 170 grain Core-Lokts. I have also killed and really like the effect of the 30-30 on caribou though I normally shoot them with 150 or 170 grain bullets.

Both cartridges can be very effective in the hands of good hunters who are both disciplined and effective marksman. I have absolutely no problem with those who choose to use them for caribou, especially in the wide open spaces of the north.

Holy cow...I started this thread long ago and it just came back to life. Actually I like the 223 to about 125-150 yards or so. When I lived in Nunavut I had a fast twist 22-250 AI that was a real killer to 300+ yards.


80 Allred/74RWS Conepoint/60Allred Triple Jacket/55 Trophy Bonded and the 53X. All at smoking fast speeds. I used the 74RWS on a lot of boo and it was a great projectile. All these bullets worked quite well..maybe a bit better than a 243/6mm when it comes to fast kills.

The 30-30 with 125 Sierra Spitzers and lung shots is a pretty good killer too. Much faster than the 170 grain bullet action though less reliable on quartering shots. These small rifles are pretty effective with good bullet placement.

I lived 9 years in Nunavut, 1 year in Labrador and the last 6 in the NWT. I noticed that locals north of the tree line in all three locales favour the 22-250 as the premier caribou rifle with the 223 in there pitching. They use whatever bullets on sale at the northern and seem to work very well indeed. The super bullets might help at close range but out at 125-200 yards where most shots are taken the factory 55 grainers work pretty well. These lads wouldn't use them if they didn't work though I have seen the 223 do some piss poor work with bad shooting. I think a bit more power does give better results with poor shot placement.

A gut shot caribou with a 308 is down or stunned but may keep jogging with a 223 slug past 125-150 yards or so.

I agree! Nothing smaller than a LAW rocket will do for anything smaller than a gofer:)

In all these threads I think we all (myself included) forget that it is shock to the nervous system that kills animals when using firearms. Bullet size doesn't really matter all that much if the shock to the nervous system is great enough which probably explains why small calibers bullets are capable of killing big game.

I am a fan of energy myself. I think the old foot pounds formula comes closest to explaining what I have witnessed than anything.

The 4500ft pounds of my long barrelled 358 Norma sure does a heap of workcompared to the 223.

IMHO,bullet selection trumps everything,assuming a guy can shoot........................

The .223 in my opinion is a better round if you have the ability to place it in the right place. I took my first deer with a .223. One shot at 150 yds. I am not a 30-30 fan. I had a 32 spl when I was younger. It kicked hard and did not move very fast.

Can't know of a single chambering,that works better as placement gets worse...................

Perfect..

Priceless!

Must be campaigning for us to think he ain't shot much critters with anything let alone the humble 30 WCF. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

BTW, the latter comment about the bayonet doesn't zactly help your cause either. If I had it digitized I'd be happy to shoot you the video I took of a caribou mini-rodeo in which I filmed an (unwilling) buddy whom I had directed to wrangle a pair of securely antler tangled young bulls. I guess a bayonet might have been useful. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

While the average 223 is usually more precise than the average 30-30, that advantage is certainly more necessary with the light bullets common to the little 22. The 30-30 does not require the same degree of precision shot placement as does the 223 due to its more ideal bullets. The 30-30 in question is not the usual levergun so typical of the caliber though so it really is head and shoulders over the 223. The little 7.62 Soviet does work on caribou based on what I have seen on probably less than half a dozen tundra deer, but weakly. Now THAT cartridge does exemplify lackluster IMHO. I would place it firmly behind the 223 which I rank quite easily behind the 30-30.

FWIW, I don't find any of my 30-30s to be rough to shoot, their beautifully balanced stocks notwithstanding. Even so, my wife judges recoil not by how a gun feels to her but by what she sees when someone else shoots. Consequently I decided to buy her a little Ruger Ultralight in 257 Roberts - something she hadn't heard of was part of my ruse to get her over the thought that it might kick. (We all know how loud the 243 is so it must kick too! And besides, I wanted something with just a bit more oomph in spite of the fact that I have killed truckloads of 'deer with the 6mm.) Darned girl can't shoot, Rugers are hopelessly inaccurate, etc, etc etc............. :

I've seen a few bad poser shots, but holy crap batman.......

Did you hit that with the sled before you shot it?? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

That's one helluva mess on the snow......

That looks like the work of a 22 magnum of some sort. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Not sure what your point is, as there's a boat load of capable hunting cartridges that aren't being chambered in bolt guns much, lately, .... the .30-30 being just one of them. The .45-70 Gov't. is another, and there's the .35 Rem., .250 Savage, .300 Savage, .300 H&H, .358 Win., .350 Rem. Mag, 7x57mm, .284 Win., 6mm Rem., .....

Rimmed cases are generally avoided for use in bolt guns, anyway, as are any cartridges that are traditionally loaded with round nose or flat nose bullets for safe use in tubular magazines. That doesn't mean that such cartridges don't qualify as medium/big game rounds.

Maybe the sarcasm wasn't showing through quite well enough...... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I've yet to see my first 30-30 in a Remington 700, Model 70 Winchester, Ruger 77, Mauser 98, or Springfield 03....

That can not be said about the 250-3000, 300 H&H, 7x57, 284, or 6mm Rem.

My point is........this fella kind of got knocked for using what some would call an inferior round for killing caribou, yet his rifle was plenty accurate, he had 5 dead caribou, and was in my opinion enough gun by the results he posted.

Bolt-actions will tend to hold better accuracy in any cartridge you choose over lever guns......Not opinion...just fact.

If my choice for killing scary big bears was between a 30-06 Remington 700, or a 45-70 Marlin.......well I'd take the 30-06 hands down. Why??? Cause I can shoot it better and shot placement is where it's at, especially if you yourself is on the menu for a bigger critter.


With all that said; I'll keep shooting varmints from Sage Rats to Mule Deer with my 223 or 22 Hornet....It's legal in this state.
If you want to poke an Elk, you have to jump up to 6mm, which of course probably shouldn't be legal because you can't kill Elk unless you're burning 10oz of powder, lobbing bullets that look like volkswagons, and drink your coffee black, straight off the campfire...... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Yeah, I know it looks like we took out the jolly elf's team, but that was January and also well past the warm time of the day - if you can call anything warm then. Also, since we were going to blow up the sled on the left before we ran back the hundred miles it was to home, we needed as much time as possible to limp back. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> Had we known we were going to do that, we obviously would have been better off to lop off apendages rather than just undress them. I know the pic isn't exactly true to the typical "pose" deal folks have come to expect. However, these young cows were "plate trophies," nothing else. Obviously we would have preferred to take pics before hides were skinned, guts were pulled, and carcasses were dragged. Even a digital camera needs time to recover from several hours of wind chill though. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> Any errant mess related to bad shooting was mine. A couple of these were the first for my wife and she made perfect chest shots hitting them just where I told her to. The little 120 grain Grand Slams worked perfectly. I, on the other hand, did not manage the same perfection. Ironically, the herd kept us company, streaming past on both sides from time to time as we worked.