In particular, a 300wsm over a 300win. Are there any, or is it just...something different? Out of all the short mags I do think the 300 is most likely to survive, and will be commonly chambered for years to come.

I'm most interested in ballistics, recoil, and feeding issues compared to a 300win.

There's a new 300 in my very near future and it will most likely be a "long mag", just wondering if I should be looking at the stubby version.

A lot of it depends on which rifle you will be getting it in.
A Remington standard action has a bolt throw long enough for 375 H&H, so their short action WSM makes a lot of sense. They also balance well and just feel handy.
But a model 70 short action does not feel much different from their standard action.
Some say they can't tell any difference in recoil but I can. Or at least my shoulder tells me that the WSM recoils exactly between a 7 rem mag and a 300 win mag., not as much as.
$.02

I have owned both, the 300 win mag seemed to recoil more but that could just be me. I have a 300 wsm now and I like it a lot but I do not load it that hot. If I had to do it all over again, for a general purpose hunting rifle, I would go with the 300 win mag as it is generally useful and a bit easier to find ammo if you lose yours in travel. that said, the 300 wsm can make for a handy rifle in a short action and performance is excellent with bullets up to 180 grains.

it's really a toss up but the 300 win mag has the edge if you are looking to use heavier bullets.

some points that has been said are, a short action is stiffer than a long action, and weight is less.

300wsm = 300 win mag in a better wrapper.......Flame suit firmly in place......Blake

The 300wsm just doesn't perform like the 300 win mag,Great round but not equal to the 300 win.

I concur...it's better...................

Advantages from the standpoint of rifle companies...
they sell alot of rifles that they normally wouldnt.
Advantages from the ammo companies...
they sell alot of ammo to people trying to get their scope zeroed at 300 yards when they cant quit flinching from recoil.
Advantages from the scope companies...
sell alot more scopes to people who figure they need more eye relief so they quit getting banged in the forehead.
Advantages from the hunters standpoint...
they get to strut around camp w/ their new WSM while everyone else is forced to hunt w/ rifles that have a 3/4" longer bolt throw.

Your addled prose reiterates some attributes,though I'm certain that weren't your thrust.....................

For me personally, in my gun of choice: sako finnlight ,it lead me to a lighter, handier package, thus it was not a performance issue rather the gun I wanted in some type of 300 mag. I would choose it again if to do over.

Anything that has the length of a 308 and shoots like a
300 H&H turns me on.

Ever hear of anybody knocking the ability of a 300 H&H or saying it just doesnt match up to the winnie? It stands on its own and so does the WSM.


Iron sights
700 saftey warts
belts on brass

All just a waste of metal and worthless to me.

It does everything the 300Winny does,more friendlier.

Losing the belt ain't a step backwards either..............

okey dokey....................why?

Tastes great,less filling...................

"more gooder" screams the brilliant masses.

That works.

I just bought a 300wm instead of the short mag,,, ease of ammo, casses seemed cheaper and easier to find, better with heavier bullets, tendancy for higher mag capacity, tons more relaoding dada out there. And my 7mm-08s take care of the lighter weight stuff.

WSM actions can save about 1/2 lb. of rifle weight, but the balance feels much better.
300 Winny has a slight velocity advantage, and some people think it is important that Lapaua makes brass for it?

Either round is absolutely great.

If it were me I would first choose the rifle for the purpose I wanted, then the cartridge choice will be more apparent.

+1 ,it puts you in an ideal compact package without having to sacrifice horsepower in going to a smaller standard cartridge.

It depends on how you hunt. If your legs are your primary means of accessing game, you don't need to ask the question, as you'll know the answer.

If you access game via 4 wheeler, or set yourself up in an elevated stand, the benefits will likely allude you.

I'd readily trade 1-2#'s for 100 fps. I've also been unable to fathom a single situation I'd use a 30 that a 165-168 @ 3100 fps would be wanting for another 100 fps. I can say for most of my hunting situations, lighter weight is always called for.

none...jorge

+1, the more you walk, the better the WSM looks.

BMT

Lighter guns = more punishment. I don't want a lightweight magnum. I have a Ruger 300 Win mag which was rebarreled with a #2 profile and it is brutal. Nice and light, but you pay at the range.

To me, he advantages are much better on paper than they are when they hit steel. The shorter action / lighter gun thing is more of a disadvantage to me, because I�m not all that interested in ultra-light .300 magnums�I equate that with an unpleasant sensation.

However, there are those who are willing to tolerate the increased recoil for the kind of hunting they do.

The shorter action does mean it�s stiffer, but on paper, with a sporter weight rifle, the difference is essentially invisible.

Losing the worthless belt is a real step in the right direction. I�ve always thought the belt was a silly idea for American Magnums.

Factory ammunition is much more costly and much less available with less variety. On the reloading side, cases are more costly.

Now, it�s no secret that I�m not a big fan of the magnums, but that�s because I�m not much of a long range Elk killer. For most game shooting, I don�t understand the need for anything beyond a .270, and I tend to lean toward the light side of that as well (7-08, .260 etc). When I feel those cartridges are incapable of the job, I don�t reach for more velocity, I go for more bullet, so I�m much more apt to use a .35 Whelen, .338 Magnum etc, than a .300 Magnum.

I think that pretty well sums it up! I'll add, the only WSM that amounts to a "magnum" is the .270WSM. The 300WSM is a really neat little package from which to launch 165s-168s at 3000fps+. That will pretty well do anything needed on this continent.

[/quote]

The 300WSM is a really neat little package from which to launch 165s-168s at 3000fps+. That will pretty well do anything needed on this continent. [/quote]

Absolutely!

I can't make up my mind, I have both and will probably keep it that way. Sometimes light is good. I can get 200 fps more from the 300 winnie, but the animal can't tell the difference.

That is the whole point of a WSM. You can have your cake and eat it too. I have a short action M700 with factory barrel and their R3 (LimbSaver) pad and it has a lot less recoil than I anticipated. Really not too bad, I honestly believe most women could probably shoot it well with some practice.

I also have a 300 Winny with a 25" #5 barrel for stationary hunting over long pipe line cuts etc. It kicks a little more than my lighter WSM gun, but it has a Decelerator pad so that may be the difference I'm feeling?

It all comes down to the rifle said 300 WSM is chambered in. For me the Kimber 8400 package makes it a no brainer. I can get nearly 3,000 fps with a 180 in an all-up package under 7.25 lbs. Very accurate and because of intelligent stock design, highly shootable.

Were I unconcerned about weight and a rifle's OAL I'd sooner do the 300 Winny. It's a solid 100+ fps faster, is available everywhere and doesn't have the problems often created by the chunky, sharp-shouldered, minimally tapered 300 WSM.

I find the Kimber Montana 300WSM very very soft shooting,stoked with 165/8's.

Couldn't give Ruger two-thumbs up in stock ergo's,though they are better than quite a few.

My 7.25lb 7SHAMU is a pussycat on the shoulder............

I have had both, I find no significant difference in recoil, mostly because the WSM was a little lighter, 100-200 fps in most bullet weghts to the 300 WIN. I settled on the 300 Win, probably more for the rifle than the cartridge. I am shooting a Sako AV 300 WIn that weighs a whole 6 oz more than my Browning hunter did in the 300 WSM.

I'va had far more 300Winny's than WSM,but prefer the WSM easily.

Really never expected to see that transformation.

Sako AV's is far from lithe and A-Bolts...well,you know...................

I've never been a big fan of anything that "headspaces" on the belt. That said, an extra half pound in a magnum rifle doesn't bother me either. Yes the 300wsm is a shorter, lighter, more compact, stiffer action. But you'll never find anyone who knows better bitchin' about the accuracy that can be obtained with a 300Win mag, short case neck or not. If milkin' the absolute most velocity out of it is your goal, then the 300Win wins. But as far as practical hunting purposes go, you'll never tell the difference in performance on game. I will say the 300wsm seems to recoil slightly less, but it is slightly less of around, although you'll never notice the difference in the field. Earlier model 70's(first 1/2 yr production) had some feeding issues. I've still heard stories of Kimber 8400's having them(didn't they learn anything from the rifle they've tried so hard to copy). The 270wsm has already become a favorite of mine, and I recently blew about 3 grand on a custom 270wsm. Regardless of what Layne Simpson wrote, I believe it has an edge over the great 270 Win. Either cartridge ain't goin' anywhere any time soon, so I wouldn't sweat it. I'd stay away from the RSAUM's though, and also the 7mm WSM(Remington seems to pretty much own the 7mm market)---2MG

The 7WSM has it over all of 'em.................

I don't disagree, but the one place where it counts most as far as the manufacturers are concerned, sales, it doesn't have it all over 'em. If any of the wsm's has a chance of fadin' out, the 7mm would be the one. Not a concern of us avid handloaders though......2MG

I do have one of those and I do like it, better than the 300wsm, kicks a whole lot less. That 300 wsm with 180's is one mean kickin' sb.

The 7mm has a shorter case neck, and affords a bit more powder capacity...---2MG

Exactly why my first WSM was a 8400 Classic in said chambering and I just bought my 8400 Montana to duplicate it. As someone above said, a 160 TSX at 3000 fps or a 160 Partition at 3100+ is pretty potent!

My AV with 6.5 oz optilok rings and bases and a Zeiss conquest 3x9x40 scope that weighs 15 oz more comes in with a belly full at 8lbs 6oz. To me just about right for carrying and shooting a magnum cartridge.
I have other guns that are much lighter in milder calibres, but when I want to launch a 168 gr TSX at 3200 fps a hair under 8.5 lbs is just right for me.

Other than keeping some of the fellas in a job for a while longer , ah......no I can't think of one reason for them (that of course being the short fats).

Mark D

Both my 24" 300WSM's would make 3200fps with 165/8's.

My current 1-10" Hart,will scoot 175SMK's at 3150 fps and recoil really is dick,though it's 10lbs all up(#5 fluted,M40A1 handle,3.5-10x M1,HS DBM).



The Montana chambered same,launching 165/8's,is a play toy,as far as felt recoil values.

The WSM shoots softer,because it consumes less powder and will hang with the Winny performance wise. It also has a penchant to emit veddy veddy low ES/SD's and I'm convinced there's a slight mechanical accuracy advantage. Brass is routinely exceptional and that don't hurt.

For killing,I prefer my aforementioned 7SHAMU,because I can like 284's better and it's handier/lighter...............

"The WSM shoots softer,because it consumes less powder and will hang with the Winny performance wise. It also has a penchant to emit veddy veddy low ES/SD's and I'm convinced there's a slight mechanical accuracy advantage. Brass is routinely exceptional and that don't hurt."

AMEN ! Brother, Preach it, come on!

Camp on it for awhile....

Still contemplating a KungFu 7Whizzum,in an A5..................

I love the 7 WSM, the champ for my money. When I go back to shooting 7's that will be the one.

btw, I talked with Hornady today trying to dig some info out of
them on the 375 Ruger. A little longer than the 376 Styer,
fat as a regular belted mag with no belt and a 28 degree shoulder. So he said.

I Said that would be a great case for other dia. He said don't be surprised. That could send me down the saw dust trail.

.532" boltface?.......................

The .300 Winchester Magnum is the most popular of the many .300 Magnum cartridges, and the only one on the top 10 best selling list of the "big three" U.S. ammunition manufacturers (Federal, Remington, Winchester). The .300 WSM is a short action cartridge intended to equal .300 Win. Mag. ballistics with 150-180 grain bullets. Since Winchester has taken direct aim at their own best selling .300 Magnum cartridge with the new .300 WSM, a comparison seems inevitable.

Since the published ballistics of the two cartridges are so similar, and they can be loaded with identical bullets, there is little point to an extensive ballistic comparison. This article will look primarily at other differences between the two cartridges.

The .300 Winchester Magnum

The .300 Winchester Magnum was introduced to a waiting world in 1963. Unlike previous successful .300 Magnums (.300 H&H, .300 Weatherby), the .300 Win. Mag. was designed for use in standard (.30-06) length actions. There were a lot more standard length rifle actions in the world than long "magnum" actions so, given Winchester's marketing clout, the popularity of the new .300 Winchester cartridge was assured.

The .300 Win. Mag. is based on the .300 H&H case shortened to a case length of 2.62" and a cartridge overall length of 3.34". This is a standard belted case with a rim diameter of .532", very little body taper, a sharp 25 degree shoulder, and a short .264" neck.

The purpose of this design is to maximize powder capacity, allowing the .300 Win. Mag. to outperform other standard length .300 Mag. cartridges and equal or exceed the performance of the .300 H&H Magnum. In fact, the .300 Win. Mag. comes within about 200 fps of the .300 Wby. Mag. with a 180 grain bullet.

The weak point of the design is the very short neck, which makes 200 grain bullets the practical maximum weight. The longer 220-250 grain bullets extend too far into the powder space and defeat the purpose of the cartridge.

Winchester factory loads for the .300 Win. Mag. drive 150 grain bullets at a MV of 3260-3290 fps, 165 grain bullets at a MV of 3120, and 180 grain bullets at a MV of 2960-3070 fps. The Hornady Heavy Magnum factory load drives a 180 grain bullet at a MV of 3100 fps.

Factory ballistics for the .300 Win. Mag. are achieved in 24" test barrels, and most hunting rifles in the caliber come with 24" or 26" barrels, so the advertised ballistics usually check out pretty closely when chronographed in hunting rifles.

For more information about Winchester's Big .30, please see my article "The .300 Winchester Magnum" on the Rifle Cartridge Page.

The .300 WSM

Winchester based their .300 Short Magnum on the .404 Jeffery elephant rifle case, drastically shortened to a case length of 2.1" and a COL of 2.860". The .300 WSM has a rebated rim that will match up to a standard magnum diameter bolt face. It has a very sharp 35 degree shoulder angle. The case neck is slightly less than one bullet diameter, at 0.295" long. The result of these design trade-offs (sharper shoulder, short neck, fat case with rebated rim) is that the .300 WSM has a similar powder capacity to the .300 Win. Mag. case.

For technical reasons fat, short, rebated rim cartridges with very sharp shoulders tend to cause feeding problems from the box magazines typically found in bolt action (and other types of repeating) rifles. This may be why Winchester offers the .300 WSM only in controlled round feed models of their Model 70 rifle. Savage 110's and Browning A-Bolt II's, however, are push feed rifles and they are also available in .300 WSM caliber.

I have received reports from the field of feeding problems with WSM rifles. While these reports are not so frequent that I would necessarily advise against purchasing a .300 WSM rifle, it is something to keep in mind. It is clear that .300 WSM rifles are not as reliable as .300 Win. Mag. rifles because of this problem.

Winchester factory loads for the .300 WSM come with 150 and 180 grain bullets. The 150 grain Ballistic Silvertip bullet has a catalog muzzle velocity (MV) of 3300 fps and muzzle energy (ME) of 3628 ft. lbs. The 180 grain bullets include a Power Point and a premium Fail Safe and both have catalog MV's of 2970 fps and ME's of 3526 ft. lbs. These velocities were developed in 24" test barrels. Federal and Remington also offer .300 WSM loads with 180 grain bullets at similar velocities.

Winchester wisely provides 24" barrels on all .300 WSM caliber rifles. Browning, however, has standardized the somewhat unusual length of 23" for their .300 WSM rifle barrels. The velocity loss in these shorter barrels should amount to about 30 fps, according to Remington estimates. For more information about the .300 WSM please see my article "The .300 WSM" on the Rifle Cartridge Page.

Factory loads

The .300 WSM was designed to give .300 Win. Mag. performance in a short action rifle with bullets of 150-180 grains and, as we have seen above, this it does. There is very little difference between the ballistics of the two calibers as factory loaded.

The difference is in the variety of factory loads available. The .300 Win. Mag. is a worldwide hunting cartridge, and practically all ammunition manufacturers load for the caliber. The 2004 edition of the Shooter's Bible, for example, lists 55 different factory loads for the .300 Win. Mag., in bullet weights of 150, 165, 180, 190, and 200 grains. And those are just the loads commonly encountered in the U.S. They do not include many loads available from European, African and Australian cartridge manufacturers.

The same Shooter's Bible lists exactly 9 factory loads for the .300 WSM, in bullet weights of 150 grains (2) and 180 grains (7) only. The hunter who relies on shooting factory loads could quickly run into trouble if his particular rifle did not provide its best performance with one of those bullet weights or loads.

Clearly, the hunter who shoots a lot of factory loads would do well to choose the .300 Win. Mag. So would the hunter who is planning to hunt on a continent other than North America, as I know of no .300 WSM ammunition being loaded overseas.

Reloads

There are plenty of bullet choices for any .30 caliber rifle, and the selection is the same for the .300 Win. Mag. or the .300 WSM. The situation is much the same for powders, and both calibers use large rifle magnum primers.

But .300 Win. Mag. brass is much more available than .300 WSM brass. And, in a pinch, .300 Win. Mag. brass can be formed from just about any full length case based on the original .375 H&H belted magnum case, of which there are many. The .300 WSM can be formed only from .404 Jeffery cases, which are very difficult to come by.

Bear in mind that although most reloading manuals show reloads for heavy bullets of 200-220 grains, neither of these cartridges is at its best with heavy bullets. Anyone, and particularly a reloader, purchasing a .300 Magnum rifle for use with heavy bullets should consider a full length magnum cartridge, such as the .300 H&H or .300 Weatherby Magnums.

The .300 Win. Mag. case has slightly greater capacity than the .300 WSM case. The sixth edition of the Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading shows that the .300 Win. Mag. averages about a 50 fps advantage with all bullet weights (110-220 grains).

However, the Hornady .300 Win. Mag. test rifle had a 25" barrel, and the .300 WSM test rifle had a 24" barrel. If we subtract 30 fps from the .300 Win. figures to correct them for a 1" shorter barrel, the velocity advantage becomes 20 fps across the board. If both cartridges are loaded to the same MAP, this is probably indicative of the .300 Win. Magnum's slight advantage in case capacity. On the other hand, many .300 Win. Mag. rifles do have barrels 1"-2" longer than those supplied on .300 WSM rifles, so for these rifles the .300 Win. Magnum's velocity advantage is probably 50-80 fps.

Availability of rifles

The .300 WSM has caught on well for a new cartridge in an already over crowded caliber. Bolt action hunting rifles are available from several major manufacturers including Browning, Ruger, Savage, Winchester, and Weatherby (Vanguard). In addition, Browning offers their BAR autoloader and BLR lever action models in .300 WSM.

On the other hand, almost every model of bolt action rifle that can be chambered for the cartridge is available in .300 Win. Mag. The available rifle models include single shots, a couple of autoloaders, and the aforementioned BLR lever action. No other .300 Magnum cartridge comes close to the .300 Win. in terms of the numbers and variety of available rifles. In availability of rifles, new or used, the .300 Win. Mag. has a clear advantage.

Accuracy

One of the most heavily touted (hypothetical) advantages of the WSM cartridges is their "inherent" accuracy. Unfortunately, this is due more to their resemblance to the short, stubby cartridges popular in the world of bench rest target shooting, rather than any documented advantage in the field.

In the field, the difference between the intrinsic accuracy of these two rifle cartridges is so tiny (if it exists at all) that other factors are overwhelmingly more important. These include, but are not limited to, the rifle (barrel, bedding, action, trigger, care of assembly, etc.), the ammunition (the precision of the various components and the care with which they are assembled), the interaction of the individual rifle with the particular load chosen (hunting ammunition is normally chosen more for its ballistics and terminal performance on game than its accuracy), external conditions (wind, weather, temperature, altitude, etc.), the steadiness of the position from which a shot is fired (from an impromptu rest, prone, sitting, standing, etc.), and most of all the skill of the shooter. Compared to these variables, some of which are huge, any theoretical difference between the intrinsic accuracy of the .300 WSM and .300 Win. Mag. cartridges is absolutely meaningless.

Rifle size and weight

The whole point to the .300 WSM is that it can be used in short action magnum rifles. In the past there have been very few short action rifles with magnum bolt faces, but that is changing. Bolt action rifles from Browning, Remington, Ruger, Savage, Winchester and others are now available for the various short magnum cartridges.

The difference between a standard length action, such as required for the .300 Winchester Magnum, and a short action is about 1/2". Given the same barrel length, stock (length of pull) and so forth, a rifle chambered for the .300 WSM should be about 1/2" shorter than an equivalent rifle in .300 Win. Mag. If the former is, say, 44.5" in overall length with a 24" barrel, the latter should be 44.0" in overall length with a 24" barrel.

Because the short action rifle loses 1/2" out of its middle (action and stock), it is also slightly lighter. This is not always evident from the catalog weight of rifles, since the difference is so slight (usually just a couple of ounces). But other things being equal, it is there. The 2004 Remington catalog shows that their Model 700 BDL SS short magnum rifle with a 24" barrel weighs 7 3/8 pounds, while the standard length magnum version of the same rifle weighs 7 1/2 pounds. That is a 2 ounce difference in weight.

So there is a difference in the overall length and weight of otherwise identical .300 WSM and .300 Win. Mag. rifles. We can estimate that an otherwise identical .300 WSM rifle is about 1/2" shorter and 2 ounces lighter.

The 1/2" shorter length is a slight advantage for the .300 WSM. The difference in weight may or may not be an advantage. For carrying long distances, 2 ounces less weight is a slight advantage. When actually shooting the rifle, particularly during practice sessions at the range, 2 ounces less weight is a slight disadvantage, because less weight means more recoil. The most important thing to remember is that in size and weight there is really not much difference.

Magazine capacity

Because the .300 WSM cartridge is fatter than the .300 Win. Mag. cartridge, an internal box magazine of the type found in most modern bolt action hunting rifles may hold one additional .300 Win. Mag. cartridge. This depends on how the internal volume of a specific magazine compares to the volume occupied by the cartridges. In Savage rifles the .300 WSM magazine capacity is 2 rounds, while the .300 Win. Mag. capacity is 3 rounds. In Winchester M70 rifles the magazine capacity in either caliber is 3 rounds, and in Browning A-Bolt II rifles the magazine capacity in either caliber is 4 rounds.

CXP2 and CXP3 game

In terms of effectiveness (killing power) on typical CXP2 game, such as deer, antelope, goats, wart hog, wild sheep, feral hogs, black bear, red stag, and caribou there is no practical difference between the .300 WSM and .300 Win. Mag. Nor is there any difference between the two cartridges when larger CXP3 class game is the quarry. Examples of typical CXP3 game include Scandinavian moose (alg), North American moose, Rocky Mountain elk, Roosevelt elk, zebra, kudu, and wildebeest.

None of these animals are normally classed as dangerous game, and all can be humanely killed by a single well placed bullet from any .300 Magnum rifle. Should a malfunction occur, which is unlikely in any case, a trophy may be lost but no real harm is done. It is not a life and death matter.

Dangerous game

Hunting dangerous game, on the other hand, is an entirely different matter. I would not recommend the .300 WSM cartridge for hunting any type of dangerous game. The ballistics of the .300 WSM and .300 Win. Mag. are undoubtedly sufficient for all of the big predators (cats and bears). Many Alaskan brown bears and African lions, for example, have been taken with .300 Magnum rifles.

But it would be foolish to choose a rifle in .300 WSM when the same or a similar rifle is available in .300 Win. Mag. Even though the statistical difference in feed reliability is slight, it does exist. And anyone hunting dangerous game owes it to himself and to his tracker, guide, or some innocent person who may later cross a wounded animal's path, to eliminate all possible risk. A failure to feed when a follow-up shot is needed could potentially have disastrous consequences. Hunting dangerous game is a life and death matter, and it is often not the hunter, but a bystander, who is killed.

Recoil

Any .300 Magnum rifle kicks more than most shooters can stand. A great many .300 Magnum fans won't admit it, but practically anyone can shoot better with a rifle that kicks less. And bullet placement is the most important factor in killing power. Literally any animal that can be killed by a well placed bullet from a .300 Magnum can also be killed by an equally well placed bullet from a .30-06. A point to remember before you buy that new .300.

It has been alleged that the .300 WSM kicks less for the same bullet weight at the same MV than the .300 Win. Mag. This is supposed to be due to its "more efficient powder burn." So just how much difference is there in recoil between the .300 WSM and .300 Win. Mag.?

Since we have already acknowledged that the .300 Win. Mag. has a slightly greater powder capacity, we can assume that this will contribute to increased recoil. The more powder you burn, the more recoil you generate.

On the other side, we have also acknowledged that in otherwise identical rifles the .300 WSM should weigh about 1/8 pound less, and the lighter the rifle the more it kicks. Let's see how these factors average out.

Lets say that our typical .300 WSM rifle weighs 8 pounds 6 ounces (8 3/8 pounds), and our typical .300 Win. Mag. rifle weighs 8 pounds 8 ounces (8 1/2 pounds), both with identical 1 pound scopes and mounts. .300 WSM factory loads are available in two bullet weights, 150 and 180 grains, so let's compare those two bullet weights. To be as fair as possible, let's compare those two bullet weights at identical velocities, using the same powders.

According to the sixth edition of the Hornady Handbook, 69.5 grains of H4350 powder can drive a 150 grain bullet to a MV of 3200 fps in the .300 WSM. (No powder listed can duplicate the MV of 3300 fps claimed for the 150 grain factory load in the WSM, although 5 different powders can achieve 3300 fps in the .300 Win. Mag.) And 70.8 grains of H4350 can drive a 150 grain bullet to 3200 fps in the .300 Win. Mag.

AA Magpro is the only powder listed in the Hornady Handbook that can drive 180 grain bullets to a MV of 3000 fps in both cartridges, duplicating the 180 grain factory loads. It takes 80.0 grains of powder in the .300 WSM and 76.9 grains in the .300 Win. Mag.

Using those loads for comparison, here are the recoil energy figures:

.300 WSM, 150 grain at 3200 fps = 24.6 ft. lbs.
.300 Win Mag, 150 grain at 3200 fps = 24.6 ft. lbs.
.300 WSM, 180 grain at 3000 fps = 31.8 ft. lbs.
.300 Win Mag, 180 grain at 3000 fps = 30.3 ft. lbs.
Looking at those numbers, I would have to say that there is no significant difference in the recoil of the two cartridges. What happened to the alleged "more efficient powder burn" in the .300 WSM I could not say.

Conclusion


In several categories the two cartridges are essentially equal. In others the .300 Win. Mag. emerged the clear winner. Only in overall rifle length was the .300 WSM clearly superior (shorter), and then by only 1/2". Whether that 1/2" in rifle length is sufficient reason to select a cartridge that is inferior, or at best merely equal, in every other respect I leave to you to decide.

[color:"red"] The short magnums (not to mention the outsize "Ultra Magnums") are in large measure trivia. Not that they are "bad" or ineffective, not "fun," or anything of the kind. It is simply that for whatever theoretical field advantages touted, they have an equal number of disadvantages. Reduced ammo options, reduced ammo availability, reduced magazine capacity, feeding issues, and increased ammo cost are a few of the negative possibilities. Theoretically, the ability to use short magnums in stiffer, lighter short actions is an appeal. A close look reveals that long actions are not necessarily problematic at all, the weight savings may be small to nil, and in a lighter gun the recoil takes the fun out of the theoretical performance increase you thought you wanted. Recoil all too often means a field performance decrease, not an improvement. Keep that in mind if you are tempted to buy a lightweight short magnum or a long action Ultra Mag rifle.

[/color]

WSM has identical magazine capacity as any other magnum rounds. In most rifles that is three in the magazine, and one in the chamber.
The challenge for you is to name a maker whose WSM magazine holds less than their other magnums?

Great post, Cohiba Two ounces, 1/2" difference, less MV, indistiguishable accuracy and potential feeding problems? I'll stick to my original position of "none" as in what the WSM has over the Winchester Mag. jorge

Theories ain't theories to those who spend time in the field. Theories are only theories to armchair balisticians.

Well that was real easy....Savage as stated above, 3+1 and 2+1,,,, although savage is my brand of choice that was not my main reason for going 300 win mag over 300sm,,,,,just one of many. As far as the 300 sm rifles being lighter, the difference is just not enough to bother with.

Nice cut and paste Cohiba... I didn't read any of it.

Cohiba, that was one fantastic, meaty, labor-intensive post, and I agree with your conclusions almost to the letter.........

The 300 Win. Mag. has been my favorite all-around hunting cartridge for some fifteen years, and I've taken everything from Coues deer to Cape buffalo with it. The only folks I've known who put it down, rag on ignorantly about the "short neck", etc., are folks who've never really used it. I've loaded thousands and thousands of rounds of 300 Win. Mag. over the years, and I've yet to see a problem with that confounded "short neck" or anything else.

Evidently neither have all branches of the U.S. Armed forces, who continue to use it extensively, nor have countless competitive shooters who've also used it extensively over the last 40-some years, including 85% of all 1,000 yard Wimbleton Award winners. Such facts tend to speak great volumns, but I'm sure some inexperienced windbag is bound to pipe up and preach some theoretical sermon to the contrary.

I've never seen that you need anything but a strong 180 gr. bullet for any hunting with a 300 Winchester. For me, the 180s have done it all.

I will say this much in defense of the 300 WSM: In a good, properly-built rifle, the 300 WSM is a cute, effective, practical, efficient and accurate cartridge in its own right, and it's a big-time mistake to underestimate its capabilities. I can't think of a more practical and effective true western hunting rifle that will be used in the mountains, in the rain and snow, against elk, goats, mule deer, blacktails, and bears than a Kimber Montana 8400 in 300 WSM. That rifle is extremely well-made, and it just-plain makes sense.........

AD

Last time I checked weight diff between Reminton or Ruger long and short actions was mebbe 3-4 ounces , making rifle weight pretty much a moot point in my view .

That said , my son-in-law is looking to pick up an elk rifle and I think I might steer him towards the WSM , for purely phycological reasons......although a big boy at 240 , he seems to be a bit scared of recoil . If you look at that little stubby WSM case compared to 300 Win. or Roy , it just dosn't LOOK like it could kick as hard, and even the manufacturer will TELL you it doesn't kick as hard........if he THINKS it won't kick bad.........it won't.

I like the short-action length of the cartridge the most. I also like the leveraging of technology (new powders) to bring more power (magnum power) with less recoil (IMHO, WSMs *do* have less recoil than the magnums).

I still like the .308 Win. and 7mm-08 Rem., but for that magnum-power rifle, IMHO the WSMs are the way to go.

Well who would have thunk it? Savage huh..well I am glad to see that ole American company has a following outside of the m99 crowd.
In some of the favorites like Rem, Win, Kimber, Sako, Tikka, Howa, Vanguard, and Browning it is 3+1 capacity.
Maybe there will eventually be an aftermarket magazine for the Savage.
I stand on my earlier statement that they "are both absolutely great rounds. First choose the rifles purpose and the caliber choice will be more apparent."
I am glad I have them both. They are keepers.

Lotsa us savage shooters out there , I have a whole safe full.

Bitching or bragging?.................

"the weak point of the design is the very short neck, which makes 200 grain bullets the practical maximum weight. The longer 220-250 grain bullets extend too far into the powder space and defeat the purpose of the cartridge."

BS......

"I have received reports from the field of feeding problems with WSM rifles. While these reports are not so frequent that I would necessarily advise against purchasing a .300 WSM rifle, it is something to keep in mind. It is clear that .300 WSM rifles are not as reliable as .300 Win. Mag. rifles because of this problem."

AND MORE BS........

Well, it is a cut and paste...

Neither <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

that makes it untrue huh, all knowing OZ?
im waiting to hear that popping sound coming from you?

Roger........................(grin)

Allen took the bait...hook,line and sinker,but noone that shoots much even gave it a sniff.

Wasn't a very purty cast either....................

The WSMs have many HUGE advantages*...In fact the Winchester Short Magnum (WSM) cartridge concept proved that �magnum� doesn�t always mean bigger. It does, however, mean better.

When directly compared to conventional, long-action calibers, the 270 WSM, 7mm WSM and 300 WSM exceed (depending on bullet weight and type) the ballistics of the 270 Win., 7mm Rem. Mag. and 300 Win. Mag.

So what about the new 325 WSM? The 325 WSM stands alone, with no direct ballistic comparison to any long-action caliber, yet it fills an important gap, providing the trajectory of the 300 Win., with the knockdown power of the proven 338 Win. Mag. � both accomplished without the harsh recoil of the 338.

Moving beyond the obvious ballistic advantages of the WSM concept, there are also huge advantages in the rifles that fire these powerhouse cartridges. Most notably, WSM rifles are built on short-action configurations.

Prior to the WSM concept, short-action cartridges capable of high muzzle velocities did so with lightweight bullets and low downrange energy. To enter the realm of high velocity and heavy knockdown energy, beefed-up, belted magnum cartridges and heavy, long action rifles were required. However, by introducing long-action, belted magnum ballistics to the world of lightweight, short-action rifles, WSM calibers have effectively rewritten the rules that govern what a hard-hitting, high velocity rifle can be. Rifles chambered in WSM calibers are simply lighter and faster handling than their long action counterparts thanks to the shorter, stiffer actions and barrels used. Recoil is also reduced thanks to the short, fat case which produces a more efficient powder burn.

Better ballistics and lighter, more efficient rifles create a package that can�t be beat.











*Source: Browning website

Passing off someone else's scribbling's as your own is pathetic.

Let's hear your actual experience with both rounds... I'm all ears.

Cohiba,

How many 30 magnums including the WSM do you own, shoot and hunt with?

I'm only familiar with the WSM,H&H,Winny,Wby,Super and 30-378. Have banged around some with the Norma too,but never had one.

The only one that didn't get a truly fair shake was the 30-378,because it was in a POS TRG-S and I wouldn't have another one of those rifles in a pig's ass.

In fairness,30-378 brass didn't impress me either..................

"Allen took the bait"

Shazam!

i wasnt passing anything off. i was giving the person who asked the question information.
you simply want to discout anything that does not concure w/ your ideas.
but what else would i expect from someone w/ cartoons on thier rifles. ARG!

In other words...you shoot none of 'em.

Copy/pasting the entire Internet upon a Thread,is meaningless trivia.....................

The .325 WSM

The .325 Winchester Short Magnum (WSM) was introduced in 2005. Winchester (Olin) actually tried to develop a .338 WSM, but ran into technical difficulties because of the cartridge geometry of the WSM case and the length of .338 bullets. In the end, the closest thing that they could manage was an 8mm cartridge.

The ".325" nomenclature of the new cartridge is both unusual and inaccurate. It is actually a .31 caliber according to the traditional system (bore diameter) by which the .270 WSM and .300 WSM were named. Thus the new cartridge should have been named the ".315 WSM," as that is its bore diameter.

The .325 WSM is actually a small bore hunting cartridge very similar to the various short and standard length .300 Magnums, or any of the standard European 8mm (7.9mm) cartridges. Ballistically the .325 WSM is nearly identical to the 8x68S. See my article "Compared: .325 WSM, 8x68S, and 8mm Rem. Mag." on the Rifle Cartridge Page for more on that subject.

Dimensionally the .325 WSM is identical to the .300 WSM, except that the .325 case is necked-up to accept regular 8mm (.323" diameter) bullets. The shoulder angle is 35 degrees, the rim diameter .535", and the base diameter .555". The maximum case length remains 2.10" and the cartridge overall length remains 2.860".

Winchester factory loads for the .325 WSM include a 180 grain Ballistic Silvertip bullet and a 200 grain Accu-Bond bullet in their premium Supreme ammunition line. In their standard Super-X line they offer a 220 grain Power Point bullet.

The 180 grain BST bullet (BC .394) has a catalog muzzle velocity (MV) of 3060 fps. The 200 grain Accu-Bond bullet has a catalog MV of 2950 fps. And the 220 grain Power Point bullet has a claimed MV of 2840 fps. All of these Winchester catalog velocity figures are averages taken from a 24" test barrel.

Chronographed from the 23" barrel of a Browning A-Bolt II rifle, the actual MV of the Winchester 200 grain factory load proved to be about 100 fps slower than claimed. The chronograph results from the 24" barrel of a Winchester Model 70 proved to be about 75 fps slower than claimed.

Reloaders in the U.S. have a satisfactory but somewhat limited selection of 8mm bullets. Available bullet weights include 125, 150, 170-175, 180-185, 200 and 220-225 grains, but most manufacturers only offer a choice of two or three of these weights. 150, 170, and 200 grain bullets are probably the most popular, since 8mm rifles are traditionally seen as an alternative to .30 caliber rifles.
[color:"red"] BY CHUCK HAWKS [/color]

The Great Gunwriter Regurgitation Response... priceless.

So you were giving not passing, okay.

"you simply want to discout anything that does not concure w/ your ideas."

No ideas here bud, idea's don't last very long around here.
You just gave us an example. I guess I should say thank you.

I just gonna take my Stevens 300wm and back on out of this one,,,,real slow,,,,,,,,

Stick, if talk was money, you'd be able to buy-out Donald Trump..........

AD

Donald's loot ain't gonna allow him to outshoot me.

I've the luxury of not being forced to speculate and I'd concur that is Priceless...........................

some of us will be around to see the WSM (winchesters superior marketing) go the way of the dino's.

I don't use Sheep as a barometer of a good's merit....................

I do believe some of the WSM's and the super shorts will be taking a dirt nap in the not so distant future.

But, I don't feel that the 300 and or the 270 are ever gonna go away. And I honestly believe that the world may well smarten up enough to save the 7 which is IMO the best of the lot.

Now the super shorts and the lovely 325 are gonna get planted for sure.

Does anyone know if anyone has actually bought a 325 yet????

Mark D

Mark, only know one guy with a 325, Kimber Montana. Fruity round IMO.

Mac I would imagine you're talking it is at a gun shop looking forlorn for a new home right....grins

Dober

(I'll be over later to drop off the Kimer for Magnum and some TSX's for him to put under his pillow the night b4---boy am I ever glad I am not a lope this weekend!

I supect there's a lot of them beached on various shop shelves... an Olin brain-fart extrordinaire.

I'd reckon it to on the all time brain fart list, add to that the super short 25 instead of a 25 WSM and I gotta wonder how they found all of the world rocket scientists....

Mark D

Advantages of a WSM? only thing that comes to mind is.... the price of the rifle. Around here you can pick up a WSM chambered rifle quite a bit cheaper than the traditional standard caliber offerings in the same rifle model. Of course the WSM's have a lot of dust on them & some handling marks from guys grabbing them down off the shelf & putting them back up in the rack after they see the "WSM" or "WSSM" roll marked into the barrel......

and the price tags usually have a red mark through the original price, and a red mark through the first 'reduced' price, and maybe a red mark through the second 'reduced' price.....

SOON at a dealer near you, The WSDGDSAMFM, the winchester super duper gosh darn short ass muffler fluffer magnum will look like a tuna can w/ a 22 sticking out the top.
but' itll be gooder...

The biggest advantage was for the companies being able to sell so many new rifles to people that fell for the advertising.

The frosting was when they rated the billing and that's what hooked me..........................

Like the old marketing saying, "it's the sizzle baby"..

Mark D

Me either

Whenever WSM is discussed we usually hear comments that go something like "they probably won't make it". Hell they have already made it! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
So, even if all production of WSM rifles stopped now, there is still enough in circulation that the WSM calibers would be very popular wildcats.
If they became wildcats they would be as popular as say 280AI or 338-06. I can't see that bringing up the wish that they may die commercially means anything really.
We would still be using them, and suppliers would spring up to furnish actions etc.

Also, I feel that having more calibers to choose from is better than having less choices.
The 300 WSM fills the bill for someone who wants a flatter trajectory than a 30-06 without having to go over the plateau of a 300 winny.
The 7mm WSM fills a need for someone who wants a handy rifle but does not want the recoil of a 7 STW.

i guess if i bit the lure, i'd talk about how good it tastes too.

Have only had 2 STW's and prolly 10-ish 7mmRemmies,dozen 7-08's,a 284Win,280's,played with 280AI's,yada,yada,yada.

I'm entranced with the 7SHAMU and have a 7Whizzum barrel enroute....................

Easy to discern...you do alotta guessing...................

ar mattie...

Especially with spelling.

Let's try "Arrrhhh matey",until you guess again,outta the abyss of your utter cluelessness..................

I like 7mm also, but the 7 STW is an unpleasant experience for accomplishing 7mm wounding.
The recoil of an STW feels more than a 300 Winny to my small frame.

I leaned on 120's in mine,though I shot a little of everything through them.

Truth be knowed,I prefer the 257Wby and the 257WSM is a natural......................

There's a reason the STW hits harder than the .300 WM.

The STW is off the 8mm Rem Mag case. Which is one helluva lot bigger than the .300 WM case. More powder, comparable bullet weight = more recoil.

Works every time.

Better BC's too......................

They are indeed powerful, and also more 7mm than I really want. Especially now that we have 7 WSM's to choose. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I've a 26" #5 fluted 30STW,in a McMillan heavy-filled Classic with a Presentation pad. It's a [bleep] cat,with 165's at 3500fps+.

Much to be said for stock design,for weighing felt recoil values........................

True.

But apples to apples, the STW WILL hit harder than a .300WM.

Can't say she ain't a screamin' b!tch, 'cause that she is, but she do punch a bit on the back end.

Of course, she hits like a truck on the front end... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Well an informative thread nevertheless and I'll defer to you guys with vast experiences of both cartridges, but I have to ask, is it valid for me or anybody for that matter NOT to select a particular cartridge (or car, rifle, shoes, etc.,) based on the opinion of others some of who I hold in high regard? For example, Brad or Allen, if you guys tell me that "hey jorge don't buy "X" bullet because I've used it and they suck, does that mean the ONLY way for me to proffer an opinon is to actually use it myself? Sorry guys, but I wasn't about to go out and buy a Yugo and test it myself. I relied on the experiences of others and I think I came out on top!
On the 300 WSM, I've never even fired one, but I just don't think it brings anything to *my* table in the way of an improvement over the 300 Win Mag. Now the 270 WSM and the 270 WCF, now we're talking! jorge

My STW in the Classic handle,shot far softer than my Sendero chambered same,despite being lighter.

My Classic love is enduring,as is my loathing the Sendero version of same.

The 7WSM will trump the 300WSM,the 7-08 the 308,yada,yada,BC yada..................

On this forum with so many with vast experience I am certainly no expert of any kind. But I never tried to view the 300 WSM as an "improvement " of the 300 winny, why should it have to compete with something bigger?
I just view it as an additional choice I can have that is between a 30-06 and a 300 winny, and I like it a lot because it is more pleasant than I had anticipated.

Sometimes trying to explain why the WSM's in a light accurate rifle is a good thing to those who haven't and won't every try one is like trying to convince a Virgin that sex is better than jerking off. You may have to rethink some old habits but there's something good out there for you. Try one and you just might like it!...... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

In my area the only reason you don't see many 325 WSM's on the shelves is that they get bought right after they hit the shelves, I've know a few locals still looking for one. It's a superb caliber that I for one plan to shoot for a while............DJ

Poor attempts at humor aside the Real advantages of the WSM's can be summed up with one word " Balance ".

Not just the balance of a short throw bolt action rifle.
But the balance of ballistic performace vs recoil.
The balance of ballistic performance above the std rounds without the excesses of Overbore rounds.
The balance of flat trajectory at velocities where numerous bullet types perform well terminally.
The balance of excellent accuracy along with excellent ballistics.

I think that the WSM's acheive a balanced performance that is simply better than most older rounds. They aren't the fastest, heaviest or rarest, they are just the most balanced hunting rounds for medium game.......................DJ

I could side with that and think comparison to the '06 and Winny are natural conclusions,as they are aged barometers familiar to most for evaluatory means.

"Capable/forgiving" is concise summation.................

Spanking the monkey notwithstanding, is it a fair comparison to use the 308 & the 06 and the 300 WSM & Win Mag? If so, I have had extensive experience with both and I don't care for the 308, smaller action or not. But I guess that's why there is black and white to choose from and I just don't see anything in the WSM, certainly not anything that would qualify as "better" anyway. jorge

I let my son-in-law keep my .308 <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ,Lower velocity has less appeal.

I remain convinced that the 7-08 kills better,might could be attributed to higher impact velocities...I don't truly know.

I've sterling examples of both,but my 7-08 admiration is unbridled and the 308 remains Ho-hum at best.................

RE 3200 froma 165 in the WSM. Last year I spoke on this board of getting 3150 from my WSM with the 168 gr TSx and a full case of H4350 and most here thought I was crazy to try it, consensus including a few people goading you on was I was going to blow up my rifle at 3150.

Jorge,

Long action vs. Short action of the WSM.

First and foremost the WSM is shorter which can make a stiffer action you can work faster.

Only people wanting to ignore this do so.

Somewhat pisses me off the so call "experts" can rant and rave that the 308 action is better than a 30-06 in terms of potential accuracy. BUT WAIT.. you put a WSM in it and the action advantage no longer is a factor.

When a writer / expert shows this type of positioning vs. logic I write them off.

Spot

300 WSM (24 in.) = 3,130 fps. with 180 gr. TXS's. Not exactly middle ground between the 06' and the 300 Win. Mag. as some would suggest. Could be loaded to duplicate .308 velocities as well, but what's the fun in that.

Gotta love RL22.......

As Straydog said quite well.....the WSM's are just other more recent options out there that does what they were designed to do.....and very well.

Sooooo...you want an autograph or something??............

Spot: A half inch difference in length translates into how many milliseconds of advantage when cycling the bolt? I just don't think it's enough of an issue to make it worth my while. I agree with you though on the 308/06 issue, I just don't think there's anything the 308 has to offer over the 06 at least not in civilian applications. jorge

Jorge,

I learned to cycle a bolt from the old military school.
i.e. - I palm the bolt without grabbing the ball.

In that method the difference between a short and long action makes you move your forearm more. That can translate to shifting the rifles placement, which can impact the shooters ability to be accurate.

For me using that method I cycle without lifting my head much if at all, and that small amount of additional travel can translate to more error. So I guess we agree.

Other than that short strokes are a personal pref. Unless your shooting multiple targets (i.e. a target rich environment) there isn't a need for a second shot if you've executed shot #1 correctly...

Oh course that differs with dangerous game, and Elk where the philosphy is to put lead into them until they drop.

Spot

Martin,

There are people all over these boards that think if you even approach a book max load you're running the ragged edge. They're easily recognized with statements like: "Is the extra 200fps worth it? No animal will know the difference." Or my favorite: "I'll trade accuracy for velocity everytime."...As if you have to trade one for the other. The books say 3150-3200 is possible. As long as you work up, and don't see other pressure signs...that velocity is not a sign of excess or unsafe pressure.

Jorge,

Not particularly trying to convince you to change your perspective, but using your own thoughts regarding opinions of people you respect, you might consider the 500+ yd. antelope Brad recently took using his 300 WSM.



I'm guessin' you'll be stickin' with the 300 Wby, but the 300 WSM seems to hit the mark as sort of "just right" for a lot of people. Nothing wrong with the long actions and a lot of this is like the Ford vs. Chevy thing, but certainly the 300 WSM is edging up against the 300 Winny in performance in the short action package which isn't a bad thing.

Ya know walmart had a winchester 70 in 7wsm for $400 last week,,,,,Big Stick has me wishing I'd bought it!

+1
That is exactly how I feel. Finally a .30 caliber all arounder that is not lacking in the trajectory department and like a good woman, does not sledge hammer you for pulling trigger. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Will it be a Mike Rock or Pac-Nor?

Excellent point, MTnman. I never doubted the efficacy of the cartridge to take game, but in trying to answer the "advantage" question, I still don't see any advantage over the 300 Win Mag for me, in other words, were I to sell the Win Mag to get a WSM, what would I gain ballistically & accuracy-wise? jorge

Far as I can tell not a thing, but why sell the winny? Just add the WSM. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Same reason ya got the winny in addition to the weatherby. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I'm not sure it's about practicality. On the other hand, it might be a matter of different platforms. Winny or Wby for one purpose and WSM for another. Some day you may wanna do the ultralight sheep rifle thing and that might just be the time where the short light wsm model makes sense...

Jorge, the sort of hunting "I think" you do (Africa mainly?) the 300 WSM probably has zero advantages and probably would carry disadvantages. I do think, however, if you started carrying a 7.25lb rifle vs. a 9lb rifle you'd probably get hooked... of course that's not about a chambering.

For me the choice came down to the rifle/action the WSM was available in not the chambering per se. In the Kimber Montana the 300 WSM balances nicely between light weight and power. The little Kimber is beautifully crafted specifically for the WSM cartridges, has a stock that soaks up recoil like none I've ever used and holds its zero day in and day out. In short, I have a ton of confidence in the rifle and it has a surplus of power for anything I need a rifle for while coming in under 7.25 lbs ready to rock.

Since my passion is elk hunting and it's all on public ground that means long marches into the backcountry and big mountains. I've carried 9 lb rifles and I've carried 7.25lb rifles and I like the latter!

Just as the "perils" of belted mags are oversold, so the WSM's beltless "advantage" is oversold, as is the idea the 300 WSM reoils less. However, in a rifle this light I draw the limit at the 300 WSM and wouldn't want a 300 WM that light... I suspect the differences in reoil between the two would start showing up more noticeably in a 7lb rifle. Also, 2,950-3,000 with a 180 is basically what the 300 H&H is and that's really not bad company IMO, but this ain't your grandad's Holland!

As to accuracy advantage? I dunno. I've owned and loaded for four of them. They've all been accurate and, as Stick pointed out, they've all exhibeted lower ES's than any round I've worked with. I suspect the 300 WSM's case design has a greater "accuracy potential" than the 300 WM... none of that really means anything for me as a hunter though as any 300 WM could probably be made better than I can hold.

Also, I'm a two rifle guy, 30-06 and 300 WSM. Both work to perfection with the same bullets and H4350... that sort of simplicity turns me on.

In the end, I think most folks vehemance against the 300 WSM centers on the BS and hype surrounding its introduction and its threat to the long established 300 WM. I hate hype as much or more than the next guy but I also like stuff that works. For me it doesn't get any better than the Kimber Montana in 300 WSM.

The "YMMV" caveat always applies!

"DWS" (darn well said) there Mac!

Mark D

I will have to agree with the Sendero stock assessment. Few years ago I lined up a .270 in that guise with a sporter weight/walnut classic style in same chambering. Weight difference was at least 2-2.5lbs. Guess which one was more comfortable to shoot <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
H-S is like a $300 tuning fork.

Thanks Dober.

BTW, you left a 338-06 round on my desk. Swing by for a chat bro...

Here's the thing to do: Select one of the 300s, the one that captures your imagination (of no small importance), the one that you think best meets your criteria of performance, and stick with it. It really doesn't matter if it's a 300 H&H, 300 WSM, 300 Win. Mag., 300 WBY, or whatever. THEY'RE ALL GOOD. Pick that one cartridge, develop the best single all-around load you possibly can for it, and run with it for most of your hunting.

Familiarity is of great importance and cannot be underestimated in its significance. Most of the guys I know who do a LOT of hunting and whose emphasis is on hunting, rather than gun collecting and perpetual experimenting, stick with pretty much the same rifle and load, or matched set of rifles, for just about everything. Rather than pole-vault over mouse turds and get all worked up over minute differences between similar cartridges, they stick with the same proven rifle or rifles for their whole program.

All of this stuff need only be as complicated and time and resource wasting as you insist on making it. I've found out long ago that most of the purported difference between the various cartridges are a farce in terms of actual performance on game.............

AD

He must like. That's the most I've ever seen him type. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LOL... Chawn, good to see ya around! Get moved ok?

My personal thought is, if I'm going to tote a gun the weight of a 300 win mag, it might as well be a 338 mag. If I want a light flat shooting 30, the 300 WSM makes more sense.

It's all about the package, and if you can ignore the name of the chambering, come up with a good package in your mind, and open your eyes, the Kimber Montanna is one heck of a match.

Like I said originally, it depends on how you hunt. If you spend days on end huffin it with a rifle in your hands, you will need no convincing.

From where I sit the Kimber Montana is the reason for the WSM line existence. For me, without that rig there is no reason.

Just my way of thinking.

Mark D

I am trying to understand the mind set some folks have for opposing more caliber choices in favor of fewer choices?

It must be they feel somehow if the new calibers become more popular, their current battery may have less value.
But after guns are purchased their value is established by the love of the owner. If any of my guns are worth more to me than to others I simply keep them. Likewise, if they are worth more to others than to me, a sale may be looming.
It makes little sense to opppose new chamberings.

I have a question, with the inception of the WSM line, what are the advantages of the standard cartridges ie 270, 7 rem mag, and 300 win mag.....Blake

Painless I'll give you my take.

270 WSM has about 100-150 fps over the 270 Win

7 WSM gives up about 100 fps the typical 7 RM

300 WSM gives up about 100 fps to the typical 300 WM.

Your milage will vary depending on gun to gun and your methods to the madness of reloading.

Mark D

I just took a glance at Federal Premium ammo site and they list the 7 WSM as hotter than the 7 Rem. by 200 fps in 140 grainers.
7 WSM = 3310 fps
7 Rem =3110 fps
This is for a factory loading, of course the 7 Rem can be handloaded much hotter.

Mark, I agree you ain't losing much going with the WSM's..........Blake

Thats about right. The "real" advantages lie more in the indidual's perception of what is gained by lighter guns with shorter actions, the inherent accuracy of short fat rounds, or the velocity and proven effectiveness of the older more established rounds.

Brad: Well I think I begin to see the light. As you've probaly gathered, I'm pretty much an "Archie Bunker" in that I hate change...for change's sake <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. Anyhow, when you described your passion as high altitude elk hunting, I can see where every ounce of weight you can shed while retaining effectiveness, peaked my interest. So much so, that I went out this morning and checked out a Kimber in 30 WSM at our local gunshop here. I had previously tested one in 7/08 and was very pleased indeed. Anyhow, I learned the importance of a lighter rifle when I was buffalo hunting back in the summer of 05 with a heavy 416 Rigby. At eleven and a half lb fully loaded, it was a CHORE to lug it up and down the relatively mild ( by you Western Hunters standards ) hills of the Dande in Zimbabwe. A 9lb 416 would have been a welcome relief. jorge

Take 30 some different rifles in various configurations to the range,air 'em out and then try to go back to the heavy/unhandy stuff.

I never could do it...................

Yet to see a deer who can tell if they got hit at 3200 FPS or 3000 FPS.

If the new WSM RUM WSSM ect. are so great they would stop making 270s and 308, 3006 ect.
I have plan jane 270 and have had WSMs as well as RUM, nothing wrong with any of them.
Its like going to the ice cream shop. Just because you pick one flavor it don't mean the others are bad.

Jorge, bet you're not quite the "Archie Bunker" you let on... am thinking you'd rather strap into an F22 than a Phantom... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

If you ever want to pick up a Montana shoot me a PM... got a couple ideas to share.

Best,

Brad

It's all give and take.

IMHO,the WSM delivers the most,while taking the least..................

Hey, Allen, we don' need no steenkin' common sense roun' here... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />



Actually, MIT called and would like to know what kind of knives you guys use when you write. According to them some of you can split hairs finer than their best genetic engineers. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

I know it's all fun and games, and as the poster above me here notes sometimes - placement, bullet, cartridge in that order.

But really - 5 pages on this?? And during hunting season!? Usually this stuff is reserved for the doldrums of deep winter. Wassamatter, you guys all tag out already and got nothing to do? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Actually if I had my druthers, I'd have picked the good old Tomcat, so there's a little Archie for you! Yes, I was really impressed with the Kimber. Our fellow member and friend "Pugs" has one in 7/08 and I had the opportunity to shoot it a bit at a friend's place in SC. Pugs used it to take a nice hog with I think 120gr TSXs. jorge

Jorge, I think that you hit a point here that I've missed and maybe others too. I love the WSM's because several of the rifles made in the WSM's fit and balance for ME. Someone not quite as short and stocky as I am might find a longer action rifle to fit THEM better. As you say the ballistic differences between them aren't enough to bother with, but IMO the fit and balance of the different size rifles is....................DJ

That is a valid point. form and fit go hand in hand with function. Functionally, both calibers are very close, so that leaves form & fit and if the WSM works better for you there, then the choice is easy! jorge

In factory ammo form, they are both equivalent, so if you are not a handloader, buy the WSM. Although as some have pointed out, finding 300 Win ammo in Bum-----ed Egypt is probably easier.

The game is totally different, however, if you handload. What the factory ammo turns out with the WSM is very near the best you can do with any handloading tricks you may have up your sleeve.

The tables tilt dramatically if you do a little work on a 300 Win however.

I have one built on a Model 70 action with an H-S barrel and throated to seat the 165 gr. Nosler BT to the base of the neck. I have also modified the magazine to feed the longer cartridge. This is now essentially a 300 Weatherby in a much more attractive package and is my long range mule deer rifle.

The load I use with a 165 gr. bullet generates 3300 fps and buries 5 shots into 0.5" (as gauranteed by H-S).

The WSM cannot equal these ballistics if this is important to you, and yes, I can still use factory fodder in an emergency.

My 24" 1-10" Hart WSM,makes 3200fps with 165/8's and 3150fps with 175SMK's. Could lean on it harder,but it shoots bugholes and I'm contented.

My 1-10" 26" 30-8mmRemmag will push 165/8's to 3500fps and also shoots knots.

The WSM has a better ES/SD however and I attribute it to case design......................

Hello in idaho,
Nope it ain't hunting season here yet. If you guys don't open the season on your wolves soon you won't be having hunting seasons for a long time.

Hey, I didn't vote to bring'em here! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Apparently wolves like elk hunting better than deer hunting. An informal survey in today's Idaho Statesman newspaper reported hunters seeing lots of deer but far less elk than they expected, and they also reported seeing lots of wolf tracks, particularly around elk carcasses. Strictly anecdotal but interesting.

Getting back to the topic of the thread, apparently those people toting anything OTHER than a WSM saw game at a ratio of 6.2 to 1 over people toting rifles chambered in WSM cartridges. Seems those with WSM chambered rifles were so busy throwing their short actions up to their shoulders and admiring the light weight and good balance they they failed to notice the scads of game animals standing all around them.















<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Jim,

You ever phingerphuck a Montana?

Little bastards feel very good to me and don't leave anything on the table,in tradeoff.

I've had lotsa 30's,both over the counter and Custom,but I find the Montana Whizzum a very well thunk out Killing Machine. Mag box is generous in COAL latitude,throat is in accordance and the performance is there.

Trigger adjusts nicely,I can like the stock design and coupled with an LRF and Leupie turrets,she'll deliver goods at distances that would make many blush.

Always a good feeling,to know all bases are covered.....................

Okay, lest my joking is mistaken for something of any import, I never had relations with a rifle yet (though I do check empty chambers both visually and pinkeyly), but have hefted several 8400 Montanas in stores though only in the WSM chamberings. Have never seen a .473 bolt face Montana.

Based just on inspection and manipulation I share your opinion of them, they are great rifles. Would LOVE to get one if/when they put the bolt handle on my side. Until then they remain in my personal moot point file.

Hey, I know I got nothing of substance to contribute to the thread, just noting my gentle bemusement at the inordinate amount of bandwidth directed at this particular subject. Better IS better, just seems to me that "better" always ends up being decided by the beholder.

Maybe next we can have a thoughtful discussion about the tremendous difference in lethality between left hand and right hand twist barrels, or whether animals die faster if shot from the left side (closest to the heart) or the right side.

As you have noted, this place is mostly all about S---s and giggles anyway.

You once wrote - "�I could give a [bleep] about what someone else does,to seek like satisfaction. More power to 'em,and to each his own ". I liked that enough to copy it and save it, and couldn't agree more with the sentiment.

Bemusement is always encouraged,though I forgot you were handicapped on the boltside.

Sister is afflicted likewise and her right is her dominant eye and thus far,shooting righthanded has posed no issues. Will be curious to see if that course holds steady.

As to the rifle in general,I prolly went the route of most newbs...all starry-eyed and impressionable,while largely being clueless. I still remember and laugh at me and the relative power of Wive's Tales. Let's just say I've done my fair share of evaluations with generous contours and generous lengths in generous capacity chamberings. Stupid many.

With Today's boolits and the LRF,things have really changed from those days.

I could reliably do things Today with say a Montana 7Whizzum,that woulda shamed my 7STW Sendero,ugly style.

Sorta neat to look in the rearview and see how things change and it's for that reason I've often mentioned..."These ARE the Good Old Days".

Few appreciate how good we got it...................

Should quantify something.

A phingerphuck is a hands on evaluation. An eyephuck is a cursory in the flesh glance,akin to a windshield cruise.

Both Technical Terms...of endearment...............

Laughing here, I'll update my vocabulary. I figured you weren't gettin' on my case but decided to get semi-serious just in case.

I do feel endeared now... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

You've got to worry a little when you can read Stick just as fast as "regular" English, and it all makes perfect sense........(grin)

While the term "eye candy" can readily endear itself to either subject....and often does---2MG

Kinda reminds me(the language) of my huntin' buddy down the street while we're watchin' "Deadwood" on HBO. Not sure how much really registers---2MG

I think my Browning BAR .300WSM is the cats meow. Recoil reminds me of a .270 bolt, 20 gauge shotgun or 45-cal muzzloader with roundballs. Aside from store-purchased cartridges being $1 each, I am tickled-pink with the gun, caliber and my choice to move into the WSM offering.

This is my full-time hunting gun during rifle season. I use my other two centerfires now (30-30/.270) for having fun hanging targets-only. If a neighbor or friend needs a gun hunting, they have a choice of my 30-30 or .270

BS Man..........what powder are you using in the WSM? That's impressive velocity. And I do like the case. If I had it to do over again, well..........but there is always next time.

Nice pics of your arsenal on the other thread, too.

MM

Re-22. Fairly compressed via 165/8's,'bout perfect with the 175SMK.

Am driving HS DBM,it affords a lil' more COAL latitude than issued metal..........................

When I started looking for a 300 mag I wanted something that would reach out and hit a little harder than the 308. I did not consider a 30-06.

My choices lay between the 300wsm and the 300 win mag. I would have loved a 300 H&H but I think that caliber will be obsolete within the near future unfortunately.

I ended up with the 300wsm because it was available in a stainless Tikka T3, a rifle that weighs only a tad more than a Kimber Montana, shoots at least as well but costs half the price of the Montana.

Thats not taking anything away from the Montana. Its a great rifle except I do not like the blind floorplate and the skinny barrels worry me - thats what ultimately steered me to the T3.

I have fired a T3 300wsm and a T3 300win mag side by side and believe me the 300wsm is the more pleasant package in a lightweight rifle. Thats important if a lightweight rifle is required.


But if I had a really good 300 win mag would I upgrade to a 300wsm? Probably not - unless I was also upgrading to a lightweight type mountain rifle! Thats what really decided it for me

BS Man,

Yes, COL makes a world of difference and that explains why you are over what is normally achievable in the WSM.

Same as what I did w/the 300 Win. & is what allows me so much more performance than factory ammo.

RL22 is my 1st choice of powder in my loads for that as well.

MLG,

The 300 H&H is a great & classic chambering............just buy lots of brass when you can find it and you'll be set for life. Not a gun you need or want to shoot everyday so 3-400 cases should last a long time.

Has more nostalgia and curb appeal than the other 2 will ever have and it's real life performance is fuly the equivalent of the other 2...........with 200 grainers, probably the best of the bunch.

I have a brand new Interarms Whitworth magnum action that I've had for 20 years and it just begs to be barelled up to
300 H&H............Hmmm, maybe that'll be my winter project.

MM

A .050" COAL/throat change,is far less than dick and will skew performance none. One can easily exceed that latitude,by switching boolits in a given weight,as ogive to base dimensions will exceed .050" and there's your magic "capacity gain".

I can like the HS DBM,because they are robust and positive. The wee bit of COAL latitude isn't a step backwards,but bolsters performance none. Fact is,my S/S Classic 70 300WSM had internal mag confines that exceeded the HS DBM easily,but it's 24" tube simply duped the lesser COAL's performance.

It took more powder to equal the Hart's velocity,but the Hart had a snugger-ish chamber and prolly a snugger-ish bore tolerancing too. So at equal pressure,they done equal things and that suprises me none.

A 3.00" COAL 300WSM,will ride a 168A-Max with it's shank/boat tail juncture above the neck/shoulder juncture of the case,for them fretting donuts.

Could see exceeding that COAL with a 240SMK,as it requires about 3.115"-ish to ride likewise.

Coming full circle,Re-22 with a 2.815"-ish COAL with 165/8's,will flat sing and the 175's ain't exactly pedestrian...donuts be damned.

BT/DT......................

With the 180 TSX and RL22......extremely compressed. 3,130 fps is my top-end for that reason, but expect it may have been the finish line for others reasons as well.

No pressure signs with the above recipe, but expect to have experienced them sooner than later if the capacity were there. Usually despise magazine length's determining my OAL's, fortunately worked out darn close this time.

Bugholes as well....no need to venture on.

We'll see what she can do this Saturday as bulls become fair game.

That's where I'm at,with my current lot of '22.

Could prolly go to '19,eek some more speed,less weirdness,but am contented with results.

I like light powder compression and the ability to kiss lands,to get the real warm/fuzzy....................

My current lot of RL22 consists of five 5 pounders. Same lot #, mandatory. 270WSM and 25-06 eat it up as well....as always....bugholes.

One jug of 19 sits there as well, but 22 gives me what I want. Must admit, by far the most compressed I've ever lived with...and I love compressed. Weirdness.....I embrace that firmly. Can't go a granule more here......loooooong drop tube and healthy torque on the Supreme.

I shoot '19 a little in my 25-284's,280 and 30-8mmRemMag.

I shoot far more '22 and crazy much more '15....................

I have not used RL22 because I read somewhere that velocity can drop off as much as 200 fps on a cold day.
Is there any truth in that?

X's don't kill,light barrels don't shoot,MPI rules and Burris is great.

You can hear most anything...........................(grin)

Haven't noticed anything resembling that. I also don't work up a load in 75 degrees when my hunting takes me into 25 degree areas. Dramatic elevation changes from proofing to hunting can be every bit as disconcerting as temperature changes if not allowed for in either your brain or your drop chart.

As I've stated before, the "Extremes" have had several articles/studies showing their failings as well. I use them also, but for their "fit", not their alleged temperature insensitivities.

I know on "Shortmags.com" that 19 was touted much more than 22 and I never understood that. My proofing with both found both well suited, but 22 much better "suited".

Seemed more a sheep thing as most don't pay to play.

Biggest congregation of idiots on the 'net and The Supreme Idiot is running the Board.

Would prefer my load data from Martha Stewart,it'd be more on the money................

1

Just ran these yesterday while at the ranch across the Oehler 35 10 feet from muzzle and all are 155 Palma fired at 100yds out of a 24 inch #4 Krieger. Next week I will be tweaking a little and moving a couple of the keeper loads to 600. These were safe in MY RIFLE and do not exceed the �book loads for Sierra but my cases, primers, chamber and barrel were different� I used prepared Norma brass. Winds were 5 to almost 20 temp started at 48 and was 68 when I finished�I love wind flags!

RL 22 = 72.1gr

1. 3628
5. 3254 forgot to write 2,3,4 down but the Oehler still had the averages

High 3262 Low 3227 Avg 3246 ES 35fps 5 shots measured .91

RL 19 = 72.0 gr

1. 3265
2. 3253
3. 3257
4. 3245
5. 3249

High 3265 Low 3245 ES 20 SD 7 Avg Vel 3253 5 shots measured .64

IMR 4350 69.0 gr

1. 3303
2. 3308
3. 3308
4. 3336
5. 3308

High 3336 Low 3303 ES 33 Avg Vel 3312 SD 13 5 shots measured .51

H4350 72.0 gr

1. 3375
2. 3372
3. 3399
4. 3382
5. 3379

High 3399 Low 3372 ES 27 Avg Vel 3381 SD 10 5 shots measured .64

IMR 4831 72.0 gr

1. forgot to write it down
2. 3336
3. 3327
4. 3320
5. 3311

High 3336 Low 3311 ES 25 3324 Avg Vel SD 9 5 shots measured .82

BTW shot my Warp 7 among others yesterday and a 20 degree difference in outside temps lost me 70 fps with RL 25. Temps do have an impact--keep this in mind!! I always shoot in the Summer, Fall and Winter over the Oehler to be sure.

The .505BC 155 Scenar ain't a slouch...................

Stick---it was the other one--SMK Palma. Thought about the Lapua but had the 155's SMK's already.

Opps--sorry said they were SMK's abouve--I get it now <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> sorry.

+100

He was such an a**h***. His understudy was OK, but the top jerk made many people leave that site, unwillingly and willingly. About as flexible an an I beam.

Montana Man

I agree - I have been trying to persuade a guy here in Aus who owns a pre64 to sell it to me for reasonable money. So far he is asking too much but noone else is buying it here either.

I am workin on him. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Brass for the 300 H&H here in Aus at the moment is a problem - there isn,t any anywhere. But I have the option of buying Federal Factory (at a premium price!) if I get the rifle.

Bottom line - the answer to this question is: It depends on what you are hunting. There are no advantages to the WSM or any other magnum for the vast majority of deer hunters out there (like me), who have never shot at anything much over 200 yards. I shoot either a 7-08 or a 308 and my wife shoots our 7WSM (yeah, she likes it best, and at 130 lbs she has no prob with the recoil), but she is over gunned for anything we have ever taken. For elk hunters or long range deer/antelope hunters the short mags make a lot of sense. Light, compact, accurate, and magnum performance. What's not to like, if that is your game?

+1000 , you cant say nothing on that site unless its in line with the Mod, that dude sucks bad. You want to talk about forum censoring.He'll do his best to shut your thread down, just because he thinks its already been covered who knows how long ago, dude gets on my nerves!

Cub, I got banned there... twice!

I consider it an honor <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />...

Mac-I hear that the third time makes it a streak!!!! grins


Mark D

Ummm.... "WSM" is easier on the tongue than "SAUM"?