Been thinking about going down the smokeless muzzleloader rabbit hole. Been looking at hanks and arrowhead barrels. Thinking about an encore vs repurposing an action for one. Ballistics look pretty impressive if you can use smokeless in your area. Any thoughts or opinions of anyone shooting smokeless Thanks

An Encore would be great to build. I know a few guys that have smokeless muzzleloaders, and like them a lot. They are either Savage 110's or built on Rem. 700's. Pacnor barrels are really good.

I have a cva scout 45-70 conversion along with a savage centerfire action smokeless. Both are fantastic. One uses an out of date Hankins style ignition and the other uses arrowheads system. The savage can be pushes much harder than the breakdown style guns. But a rifle that doesn’t use a barrel but can be pushed harder than my savage. Pretty sure my barrel is a pacnor. Much better than using a black powder substitute!

I have 2 smokeless muzzleloaders. A Savage bolt action with a Brux barrel and a CVA Scout 45/70 conversion from Hankins. If your shots are 300 yards and under buy the Scout conversion from Hankins. Very accurate guns. 60 -62 gr of 4198 and a Fury 275gr bullet you will have a tack driver .

A 275gr bullet at 2600 f.p.s. is all you will need. The hunting rifle can be kept to a reasonable weight

I have an arrowhead barrel for an encore frame. It shoots great with both bh209 and smokeless. Wish I’d done it a long time ago. Not cheap for our 10 day season here and powder/primers are hard to get right now

I’m a big fan. 275 grain bullet and 60 grains of powder did not kick nearly as hard as I expected. I forget weight of gun but I think it’s just under 10lbs scoped so that helps soak up the recoil

If you get comfortable with the cost I don’t think you’ll regret taking the plunge

Absolutely love my Arrowhead/Brux barreled Encore. Shoots lights out with Luke's 275gr NSR Bullets. Weighs in @ 9.5 lbs. as shown. Only complaint I have is that I didn't build one sooner!

That’s a super nice encore ^^. I think a lot of guys built the heavy built bolt actions from the get go because they can be pushed harder/faster since they have more barrel to do so. With that comes a weight penalty though and it seems some are reverting back to the break action guns due to their less weight/handleability. And I contemplate it myself considering I have an encore frame. Smokeless guns are cool guns and I would safely say nothing hits like they do when it comes to killing critters…a 275gr lighter jacketed bullet at 3,000fps sounds like you hitting the side of a drum with a hammer on a good still evening when you shoot a deer. Held safe and in vitals they don’t tend to take a step.

Heard a lot of good things on the arrowhead encore barrels. Might be trying one out as well.

I have a CVA Apex and a M700 barrel nut gun Be careful as they are addicting and way out perform a regular muzzleloader.

What kind of drop are you getting with the encore barrels at say 300 yards? fps? Seems to be the ticket for entry level.

"This isn't Kansas anymore, Toto". And these aren't muzzle loaders anymore, except in the sense that they're loaded from the muzzle. As soon as Fish&Game Departments instituted special ML seasons as a nod to traditionalists, as like for archers, to practice an arcane sport, human nature being what it is the arms race began. Instead of refining/practicing hunting skills to get up close and personal with the deer to make a clean one shot kill, we've substituted technology.

I'm already sorry I brought it up. The toothpaste can't be squeezed back into the tube.

You still burning wood to cook, coal oil to light and trekking across 2' of snow to get to the outhouse at 3 in the morning to take a dump?

Have a hand pump on the kitchen counter to fill the cook pot?

Don't be a smartass. Of course not, but I do like to escape to environs like that occasionally to relax a bit while experiencing how my forebears existed, and leave the modern world behind for a short bit.

I don’t think any of that has been taken away from you. Because I like to push the distance and you prefer to get up close shouldn’t matter. The last thing I want is to have some more rules tell me otherwise. Muzzleloader = loading down muzzle.

Whatever floats your boat. Not much reason to go smokeless here as the season is short, as are the ranges. Pretty much any old smokepole is good to go, and while I lost my coonskin cap sometime in the late 50s, I still enjoy toting the old-style ones a bit.

My comment is entirely about how a primitive weapons opportunity has been subjoined into an arms race that has little or nothing to do with it's original intent. Some states recognize that and provide two ml seasons, which is only fair IMO.

Of a mind that new style of smokeless ML guns revolves around the legend of how "hard" it is to keep a BP gun clean after shooting. Nothing could be further from the truth. I have several old school ML guns that are so easy to clean it's stupid. JMO

Had a friend that went down the "smokeless" rabbit hole a few years ago. Thought he didn't have to clean it and that misunderstanding left him with the worst corrosion I've seen in a ML barrel.

Another legend has it that "smokeless" is more accurate than BP. Perhaps some guns are more accurate than others, but I'm of a mind that the powder isn't a barrier to success. Billy Dixon would likely agree with that.

My own experience with BP ML's and cartridge rifles?

100 yards, elbow rest with a tang sight .45-70. It takes 3 patches to clean the bore, a 4th to oil it.


50 yards, offhand with a .45 cal flintlock. I typically use around 5 patches to clean it. Been shooting it for about 10 years and it doesn't have the first fleck of rust in the bore.


200 yards, bag rest, .40 caliber shooting a 300 grain conical. Wind was 15G25, full value L-R. 3 patches and it's spotless.


100 yards, offhand, .38-55 Win. Guess how many patches...

I get it.

I have a Hawken when I want to play Grizz Adam's. Have an inline w black substitute when I want to have minimal clean up if smno shots fired.

From my experience my Hawken actually cleans up easier.

Our ML season is gone now and we have an "alternative weapons" season.

Smoke poles, in lines, modern pistols, atlatls and maybe even spears allowed. No telling what else.

When were smokeless and inlines NOT allowed in Missouri during the "ML" season? Considering the alternative season is well after the normal rifle season and has been as long as i can remember.....who gives a rats azz what you can or cant use? It not like you get another tag for the alternative season and you can certainly use any ML 40cal or larger during firearms season. Missouri "muzzleloader season" was a damn joke from day one.

Never said smokeless and inlines weren't allowed in the early years when we had a muzzleloader only season.

Was within 2 weeks or sooner after firearms season from when I remember it in early 90s or before up through early 2000s if not later.

Maybe even started up 10 days or less after Thanksgiving when you could buy a muzzleloader tag but were stuck to using a muzzleloader only during regular firearms season if you bought one.

Never said I gave a rat's ass about what you could use either I was stating some of the weapons that can be used.

Get yourself set up with smokeless. I have two hawkens (54 and 50), a bunch of cap and ball Italian revolvers and several original 1860's cap and ball revolvers.

I like the cap and ball stuff, enough to own some original guns, but the smokeless is more reliable in wet weather.

When I care about the hunt more than the implement I'm using, I grab the smokeless rifle (Savage ML-10, works fine)

If you really want to make it hard on yourself, hunt traditional archery.

AFIK, based on reading, the purpose of special seasons was originally to create hours of recreational time without impacting the resource too heavily. I used a TC Hawken in Southern Maryland before there was a ML season, and considered it an upgrade over most of the shotguns with only bead front sights. That was before rifled slug guns too. My uncle, then my brother and I were the first in our crowd to scope our shotguns too. Being able to make better hits is a good thing. Certainly with whitetails in the East now, the “resource” needs some good old fashioned decimating, not protecting. And even here in my bedroom community, a little woodsy solitude is only a few extra steps off trail on the small WMA I hunt, as the majority seem to cruise the mown paths. I’ve never felt I needed special dispensation in the form of restictive seasons to enjoy my toys, but I’ll take the extra time every time.

That's where I'm at with it. Our firearm deer season is 7 days... yes... 7, and they aren't even 7 consecutive days. Muzzleloaders aren't really my thing, but I have no problem hitting the easy button with an inline to get a few more days to hunt during the ML only season.

Ours is short too, but we have a true primitive season in January, four days. No more inlines here; I do my cheating with a crossbow, but I’m getting tired of dragging that pos through the bushes too and will probably sell it before next season. Like the inlines I’ve owned, I never shoot it for fun, just enough to make sure I can kill stuff with it.

My inline isn't a pleasure shooter, either. Probably averaging about 5-10 shots a year with it after the initial load workup and sight in.

Only fair?

Only fair would be two seasons, Closed and Open.

Ha, that crossbow doesn't pack through the brush so easily huh??

Those who have never been around em tout how convenient they are. Hunt with one for a bit and they can be awkward at times and also maybe cause you to not get a shot behind your tree as well.

Not as simple as some think.

Oh, killin’ with ‘em is pretty simple. Totin’ ‘em around is a bitch.

Then there was this time when somebody didn’t check to be certain the crank was well seated and the whole shebang flew into the scope eyepiece under 260lbs of force….

Nobody I know, of course🙄

Try that killing when one is behind your tree. Easier w a vertical bow, no limbs to hit the tree, BTDT.

Had one just like that a couple of weeks ago, but she was too small, even for me.

I did whack a limb against a tree shooting I was braced against in my yard. The Excalibur shook that off, no problemo. Probably woulda been hard on one with wheels and cables.😱

Going down the smokeless rabbit hole currently, I have a 700ml at McGowan right now getting rebarreled to 45 and another 700ml setting in the safe that might get the same treatment since the barrel is shot. With the price of Blackhorn 209 going thru the roof it makes smokeless more appealing to me anyways.

How does the barrel get shot in a 700ML?

Kunas. I converted a Savage 10ML over to 45 with a Pac nor barrel. It's easy to maintain MOA out to 300 yards. I would like to go with a 40 cal and eliminate the sabots but from what I gather I would most likely have to move up to a 225G bullet and the added recoil wouldn’t really be worth it to me. I have made several 225 yard shots with the 45 and at least a dozen head shots on does that were standing close as in under 40 yards.

1 way, poor cleaning /maintenance.

Several other ways too.

I suspected that answer.

My first muzzleloader kill was a week or so with a borrowed early Arrowhead when he was using the Savage action. Leupold VX-6 4-24X scope and his 300 gr bullet at 2800 fps. Dialed the scope for the 310 yard shot, pulled the trigger and have never heard as load a whack in my life.

So glad I went smokeless, my SML is the most accurate, hardest hitting ML I’ve ever owned. Not having to clean it after shooting a deer is a huge bonus. Arrowhead makes a great product.

Nice 👍

“have never heard as load a whack in my life.”
This is as true of statement as Ive heard. These things hit like a tank. Especially on a good calm evening right before dark. They generally just fall in the scope.

First deer I shot with mine was on a still evening and I’d never heard a gun hit so hard. She just wilted.

Entrance hole/No exit
275gr fury with 75gr of H4198 under it.

I bought gun at auction for for $30 missing the bolt I didn't have high expectations for the rifle when I got it buy my brother in law wanted one and I had a spare bolt laying in my safe. I was minute of pie pan at 50 yards with 458 300gr HPs. But at 100 it was a 12/14in group. Dont know the history of the gun but for $30 the action is worth that.

No wonder. That's like touching off a .375 Weatherby! LOL!

Can you tell us a little about the gun in the pic?

Have any of you guys had Jeff Fisk do an omega conversion? My Omega has been a safe queen since I got an Acura, and I have been thinking of converting it to smokeless. Contemplating going down the hole myself at the moment.

The gun in the picture started it’s life as a basic mid 90s model ADL in a 308. I bought the gun from a local shop for like $350 just to use as a donor. I had found a used stock on gunbroker off of a m700 ultimate muzzleloader for cheap. But I’ll just list the parts pile in a list.
Model 700 short action .473 bolt face base screws took to 8/40 screws/40x trigger
B&C m700 ultimate muzzleloader stock
Brux #6 1:20 .458/.450 barrel blank with 5” of shank finished at 24”
Hankins LRMP ignition system using modules
Hankins radial brake
Hankins barrel band
Hankins base/Burris xtr rings
Vortex viper HS 2.5-10x44
T/C swing power rod I robbed from my encore

Little better picture

I started out with an old Thompson 50 cal black powder gun back in the early 70's. my next one was a Knight in line. Then around 2005 I bought a Savage ML II smokeless powder gun. It shot good and I killed my share of deer and pigs with it. The last 2 seasons I hunted with a TC Pro Hunter. I bought a 45-70 barrel from Match Grade Machine and sent it to Jeff Hankins to do one of his conversions. I shoot 60grs imr 4198 with a 275 gr Parker bullet and large magnum rifle primer. It doesn't get much easier. No sabots to mess with and it shoots clover leaves at 100 yds. The TC break action is light, accurate and a great woods gun. I have only killed deer out to 120yds with it but would capable to 300.

Good looking gun. I’m afraid I’m about to go in that direction but I’m undecided. Mine is a touch heavy and I’m contemplating either knocking some weight off mine with a mesa stock and machining the brake flush or getting an encore barrel and converting it.

My Arrowhead Encore barrel was the easy button

Killed my target buck with it in the first few days of our muzzleloader season. Thru both shoulders at 110 yards - biggest exit I’ve ever seen on a whitetail. Using whatever the bullets are that arrowhead sells. 275 grain. The buck did make it about 25 yards into the brush but the blood trail looked like a crime scene

I first went down the smokeless rabbit hole about 10 years ago. I was muzzleloading since about 1992 [with 50cal Hawken percussion rifle] and have been trying to push the envelope on performance ever since. If I recall, the first SML I procured was Savage smokeless that got dropped in a McMillan. Soon after came a custom barreled Encore 45, then H&R SS Ultra Hunter 45-70 conversion followed by a long string of conversions and heavy barreled customs on Rem 700 actions. For a few years I was running a pair of Hankin’s Scout conversions and while running 275gr Pittman bullets around 2,600 is a mean combo [even out to 300-350y] I knew I eventually wanted to add a heavy 45cal again. This Fall I picked up a Hankins custom 45 Rem 700 in a Manners stock, Brux barrel etc. Quickly found a load of the 303gr Aeromax going 2,750fps. Like most all the SML’s I have owned sub MOA [usually 1/2 - 3/4 MOA] was easily attained. While I didn’t get to use the heavy rig on a buck this year, I did take one with the lighter CVA conversion. If these guns are legal where you hunt, I can’t see not getting into them; whether just for the lack of cleaning and ease of accuracy or if distances are over 150y - they are the way to go.
Here is a few I have pics of over the years. [sorry they are so big]

Been in the smokeless game many years, primarily a bow hunter until I started.
without a doubt the meanest guns I've ever witnessed on an animal, would almost be cruel if they didn't kill so fast.
Have taken shots from 20 yards to 896 yards and they all died quickly but when you push a bullet that big, that fast, one would expect some carnage, just goes with the territory.
As accurate as any gun I've ever pulled the trigger on, .5 MOA or better in most cases.

Great buck

The Savage is a great rifle. A proven deer killer and you don't have to clean it.

Never had any such inclination.