I will be after a cow elk in unit 61 Colorado. Not sure what improvements have been made in components.
What weight bullets to use? What brand bullet? How much propellant and what load. I guess regular shotgun primers are still the best.
Would a 285 gr bullet be better than a heavier one?
I want as much internal damage as possible and an exit hole.
Aero tip? Hollow point? No sabots allowed.
Any tips appreciated. 100 yards maximum shot, I hope.
Probably my last hunt in area 61. Hit 73 this year.

Thanks to all.

You could try this and see how it works for ya...holdin less than an inch for 4 shots @100

Jimbob: First, hope you're doing well, and if I'm hunting elk in 61 at 73, I'll consider myself one lucky man. This was last year, did I ever show you this one:



My .50 Hawken always shot the 385 (hollow point) and 410 grain (flat point) Hornady Great Plains bullets very well with 80-90 grains of Pyrodex.

If the shots are 100 or less, I'd use a bullet in the 350-450 grain range, no need to go lighter.

Edited to add: That Harvester 300 looks pretty good too!!

Can your Hawken use a shotgun primer? Never seen one so adapted.

If you have a chance try all theabove. Here is my 2 bits PRB.

Since it's a traditional gun, I'd use as much Goex 3f behind a patched round ball that would still give me good accuracy.

How many elk you killed with that load, swampy?

20 or 30 at least....

The point being......

It's the only load I'd shoot in a .50 traditional rifle on something as big as an elk.....

That you have no experience with your recommended load on elk.

That's all the original poster needs to know.

The fact that it's "the only load you'd shoot at something as big as an elk" (if you ever did actually hunt elk) further illuminates the quality of your information, thanks for that.

I've actually lost count of the number of elk I've harvested with that load.

.50cal sidelock i'd go with a conical over the patched round ball. Now if it were a 54 thats another story.

What brand of hawken?

Thompson Center Hawken purchased in 1978 with adapter to allow shotgun primers.

Yes, smokepole you did show me that photo of the big bull. Great animal. And with archery WOW!!! Is that the one the big bear came so close to you?
Thanks to all for the recommendations.

deg967
Are you using a shotgun primer?
Hard for me to read all the info on your tight grouped target. Please send me the exact load. Powder and how much,primer# and what bullet and where to find it.

Thanks again for your suggestions.

hes also using sabots in that group.

Lets see some pics of these Elk...Dare ya....

Maybe hundreds.....

460 gn. no excuse bullet w/90 gns. FFF black set off w/ a musket cap.

Gunner

My TC Hawkin is about a 78 vintage.I have always used the Maxi Ball.I think it is in the 385 gr weight class. Just can't remember at present. Several elk have fllen to it.
The photo posted above,doesn't mean much as you can't use a scope in CO and typically the Hawkins don't digest Power Belts and those type of bullets well.

My load is 90 gr of 777 and a TC Maxiball

Saddle, 370gr tc maxi ball perhaps?

Yep!!

MMMMm?.

anyway . i can tell you ever elk i have killed , with muzzleloader , bow and center fire .
i could today take a person to the exact spots and tell you what rifle i used , what caliber , what bow , using what arrows and probably within feet of where I was when I made the shot and where I ended up collecting the meet .
Now I don�t know about the rest of you . But after making 5 trips , packing out meat . those are things you just don�t forget . Especially with an elk

With a muzzleloader I have taken 12. Of those 12 , 5 were with a 50 cal rifle .
3 were cows , 2 bulls .
Of those only 2 were with PRB . 1 bull and 1 cow .
The cow was taken in Calamity meadows on Cuddy Mt ID . The bull was a 4X5 and it was taken at the head of Deep creek , just below Tripod saddle lookout in 1986 .
Cow was shot at 25 yards and the bull at 50 using a Traditions , Pennsylvania in 50 cal .
The load was 100 grains of 3 F .
I can tell you that if you put the ball where its supposed to go it will do the job . But when it comes to bulls , they sure seem to be able to go along ways without a hart or any lungs ..
The above mentioned bull went over 500 yards before he dropped and that was missing both lungs .
After that I went to a 425 grain conical for my 50 . . I took 1 more bull in that same area in 1990 .

In 1991 I went to a 54 cal for elk . I have found it to be a much better cal . Though I still will not hunt for bulls in the hells canyon or salmon river canyon , without a big conical ..
that�s not because the RB will not do the job , it will . But when hunting in an area where 50 yards can mean the difference between packing out meat vs. standing on the rim of a canyon looking at a bull rolling end over end , down into a � mile deep canyon that even a billy goat would think twice about going ??? Well you get the point .
So my advice to you is to plan accordingly . Know your hunting area . Know your rifle . If you chose the PRB , 2 thumbs up . Know your accurate range . If you cant hold a 3 inch group off hand at 50 . Then don�t shoot past 50

Cap,
Jeeez man! Try to keep up will ya?

If Swampwater is shooting elk by the "hundreds" I am sure the poor guy is too busy running from wardens to be bothered with the details of killing them. If he is taking them legally then he must be on the road every day of the season to get to different states and he must have a terminal case of writer's cramp from filling out applications.

Show a little compassion will ya??

As far as stopping an elk from going downhill after the shot - I don't think it can be done. There is something in their genes that tells them they must find a steep walled canyon to die in.


Johnny $

I do like that 370 maxiball. Going to mess around with some 320 maxiballs this year as well. And have never shot a head of game with a patched roundball and hoping to try a .530 hornady on something as well.

It will be a long wait to see what muzzleloader tags we draw.

If the Maxiballs were accurate enough they would be fine. You'll need to get very close with them.

+100

Doc

So now you are stating that a patched round ball is more accurate than a conical, as well as packing a bigger punch? You honestly have no idea what you are talking about. You lost me pretty good with the hundreds of elk.

I would go with 90-100 grains of GOEX 2F and a conical....probably the T/C 375grain maxiballs. That load always shot well from my .50 Renegade and has lots of knockdown.

LOL they do in fact seem to be able to do find the steepest crap to get to when its available.
1 a year is frankly enough to pack out

here we are aloud 1 a year . 2 if you get into a depredation hunt . but since the wolves have been brought back . those hunts are few and far between .
i read somewhere one time that our average for an elk hunter was 1 in ever 7 years .
i find that a stretch as most of us locals fill our elk tag every year . so i guess they were not talking about us .

so if one started at age 12 . they would have to be 112 to get 100 elk at 1 a year . 62 if you were lucky enough to draw a depredation hunt every year .
myself i have only been lucky enough to get 2 of those emergency depredation tags and one of those was do to being home on leave when the hunt was called ..

Again IMO its not the size of the projectile but the placement that�s key .
You don�t need complete pass through . But in heavy country its nice to have especially if your tracking skills may be on the slim side .
For that pass through a hard ball is very good , even at distance . But in the steep canyons , a big heavy conical , shot at close range , just flat out does a lot of damage

T/C MAXI BALL is 370grs.
T/C MAXI HUNTER is 350grs.
Use 90grs of Goex 3F and your good to go.
T/C Hawkens 50 cal with 1 in 48 twist rate.
Have taken 18 + deer without a hitch. They don't go far. Been using this load since 1986. Hasn't failed me yet.

Ken

490 gr. Bull Shop or No Excuse conical, with 80 grs. or so of Goex 3f.Especially since you're not planning on shooting much past 100 yards.

Actually the Bull Shop conical I use is 460 grs., not 490.Sorry...

Thor all the way,

Bigblock455 thats a very nice grouping

I shoot everything with Powerbelts in my GPH 50 flinter, 1:32. For elk the 338 platinum is a fine choice if your twist will stabilize it. Taken moose with the Powerbelt 444FP but I doubt it will stabilize in the Hawken twist.

No excuses 460 would be the beast of those mentioned. That said the 370 maxiball or 385 great plains have good track records on elk.

deg967: Great group, but isn't the bullet your using a sabot? Sabots and scopes are not allowed in Colorado. If that group was shot with an open sight, I not playing war with you!

Have been tempted to try Thors in a traditional, but they can be a tight fit and not sure what I would do if I got one stuck down in the barrel without a removable breechplug. I love them in my inlines.

Harvester makes bullets with skirts, like powerbelts, as well as saboted bullets.

Will a 1-48 twist in a Hawkin stabilize a heavy conical 400-500 gr?

Mine shoots 410 Hornady Great Plains bullets pretty well.

Nothing is worse than Powerbelts.

They rarely stabalize conicals. I've owned over a dozen.

Jimbob. please ignore swampman. I'm not sure what his "issue" is, but I'd guess it has to do with medication, or lack thereof.

Edited to add: swampman, you're a fool. I'm not talking about your normal schtick where you post things you know not to be true to stir up nonsense, I'm talking about this thread right here.

You have a guy who's 73, possibly going on his last elk hunt and asking for advice. You have no experience, yet you persist in posting inanities and giving bad information in a situation like this.

Give it a break son. Someone outta put their foot square in your ass for this.

I gotta agree. ALL my 1:48's handle conicals very well, provided they are not too long. The .50's work well with the 385gr Great Plains, the .54 with the 425gr. Seems like that should be enough lead. He really does not know what he is talking about, and I don't understand it.

I would agree . The 1 in 48 should be fine if you take alittle time to find the most accurate charge to match the conical .
This goes for all twists really .
My long rifle has a 1 in 60 twist and she will shoots a hollow based , thick skirt. 435 grain Bernard Mini to a 3 inch group at 100 yards , off hand with 110 grains of 3 F goex .
Granted that 2 inches bigger then a RB group at 100 . But its still acceptable IMO

Less we forget , the 1853 Enfield had a twist rate of 1 in 78 shooting a 530 grain Pritchett
Granted the rifling was very shallow . But even with that it stabilized the big conical well enough

My thanks to all for the great advice. I learned a lot. Now to get the bullets,powder and some 209 primers. I have some power belts but won't use them now. My powder and primers are a little too old for me to trust to an elk hunt.
I have a tang peep sight that I am going to install this week.
I will hunt some of my favorite unit 61 spots.

Thanks again.

Jimbob: I wouldn't throw the powerbelts in the trash just yet. Not sure which ones you have, but I've drawn down on 5 with the 348 grain Aerotip and none lived to tell about it. One was throgh the shoulder bone.

If they shoot well in your rifle, I'd consider them but personally I wouldn't go lighter than 348 grains.

Ditto what Smokepole said.I have never tried theheavy weights in my Hawkin,but it sure didn't like the 295's

If you are using a traditional Hawken, go with real black powder and the biggest lubed, lead Maxi you can get to shoot well. I can't imagine what you would do with 209 primers on a traditional Hawken as they would either be flint (rare) or percussion. The black powder substitutes don't work very well with percussion caps.
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawken_rifle

His Hawken is modified for 209 primers, so he can use whatever powder he wants.

Yep, I am aware they make sabortooth, powerbelt like bullets, but he was using the PT gold sabot.

The Colorado regs are confusing:

"During the muzzle-loading firearm seasons for deer, elk, pronghorn, bear, and
moose the following additional restrictions apply:
1. Propellent/Powders: The use of pelletized powder systems and
smokeless powder are prohibited."

Is a BP substitute considered "smokeless" ? All pelletized powder systems are just reformed BP substitutes so...... Has this been answered in the regs ?

BP substitutes are legal, even if they don't come with the white cloud of smoke. Powder that comes in pellets is illegal, regardless of what kind it is.

Good catch TX, that got right by me.

I have used black powder, Pyrodex, and 777 in my TC Hawkin. Never seen any differnce in accuracy.The Pyrodex seemed to degrade faster, and I have seen some degradation with 777,but now I keep the jug in a baggy in a 50 cal ammo can and the 2 yr old powder shot as well as new stuf.I do buy a fresh can every hunting season that I draw a tag.
I can't say about BP as it has been many years since Iused it.

I use the 777 in both an inline and TC Hawkin, Caps and 209's again I have seen no difference in ignition, not have had problems.

Sometimes the purist get a little anal about all this stuff.I just use them for hunting and go out and kill elk.

Thanks, I guess that says a lot about the knowledge residing in the Colorado Fish & Game dept.

Okay to use loose powder but we don't want you to be able to reload quickly if you have an animal down and need a followup shot.

Charter Arms 44 special Bulldog carried concealed anyone ?

you dont need pellet powder toload quickly .
you think using quick loaders is slower then fiddle farting around with trying to get a couple pellets in your bore ?

if this is your first muzzleloading elk hunt and you get a bull down . its isnt going to matter , most of your loading going to miss the bore anyway LOL

Hey guys thanks for all the input. Please pardon my memory loss regarding the Hawken using 209 primers. I had them for my Sons inline. I went out and bought a box of 209 primers. (Dum Azz me)
Havent had the Hawken off the wall in a couple years. It takes standard Hawken caps.
Thanks Smokepole for all your advice and support. I have some powerbelts and they shot ok my gun. Now to start getting ready.

Thanks again to everyone.

+1

Good Luck!! Keep us posted! No matter what you end up using, I for one am rooting for you!

You're welcome Jimbob, and good luck to you!



I must admit, speed of re-loading is not somethng I've worried about much. If your animal's down, though, a few seconds won't make a difference.

Which reminds me of a story (true story). We were hunting the CO ML season one opening day a few years ago, and we were about 3 miles in from the trailhead. Heard a fusilade early on opening morning, back toward the trailhead. Seven shots in rapid succession. Back at camp, both of us who'd heard it commented that there was no way it was a muzzleloader, the shots came too fast.

We knew there was a guy who camped and hunted near the trailhead who carried a .44 magnum revolver (as well as half of all the other stuff he could find at Cabela's). We were packing out some meat and saw two guys from his camp on horses a day or two later and asked about all the shooting opening morning, and remarked on the rapidity thereof. They said "oh, that was so-and-so, he's been practicing his re-loading a lot, and he's really fast."

Whereupon my hunting partner and I exchanged a glance and he was heard to say: "sounds like he should be practicin' his shootin', not his reloading."

At one time a couple of the events I often go to , had speed shooting contests .
You had 2 minutes to fire and hit a 10 inch target , placed at 35 yards , as many times as you could in 2 min.
You were aloud to start with a loaded rifle , so the first shot was a freebee .
You cant use speed loaders or load from the horn .
Best I ever did was 8 shots . 3 were misses . Which didn�t even put me in the top three running .

One time I was hunting the snake river Islands with a friend who was on his first deer hunt and first muzzle loading hunt .
He shot this big mulie doe at about 50 yards with a 50 cal CVA Hawken that he had put together . She pilled right up and he started running towards her. Well she started to get up .
So he started reloading , well kinda LOL . Most of the powder missed the muzzle . Short starter and measure missed his bag on the way back in and he could get his RR back into the rifle and ended up tossing it to me � his capper , he just let go of .

Finally he finished his dance and we walked on over . The doe was done and there wasn�t a need for a second shot .
Then came the high fives and his recounting of the story as �HE � saw it .
I couldn�t help but laugh . You got koodements scattered on the ground all over hell and back I told him . Where is that part of your story . You better look and see what you have left in your bag LOL .
Sure enough , just about everything in there for loading was gone LOL .
Then I suggested that he had better fire that load .
Folks that�s how he got the name of BLOOOOP ,, LMAO I bet there wasn�t 10 grains of powder in that load . The look on his face when the rifle went off was worth all the money in the world .

Now has that ever happened to me , ahhh no , it was worse . I was shaking so hard I couldn�t get powder down the barrel . After the 3rd try my dad had to dump the powder for me . I got her loaded finally with dad following along picking up all the gear I was dropping on the ground LOL

Yes, it's pretty much only a newbie who frets over how quickly he can reload for a second shot.

The only time I concerned myself with it was when in competition with military muskets. With the Bess I could get off 5, sometimes 6 shots/minute. But mind you that was starting with a loaded gun, and using paper cartridges, but returning the rammer into the pipes each time. Accuracy wasn't a requisite, and that was a good thing. The best I could do with a '61 Springfield was 4 shots. Fumbling the caps out of the cap box was the bugabear. With anything else it's a pretty slow leisurely affair and I like it that way.

I had a buddy who practiced loading his long rifle while on the run. God we used to laugh while watching him. I think he watched "The Last of the Mohicans" a couple times too many. He actually got quite good at it after a couple of years.

I used to carry a .36 Colt 1862 in the bottom of my possibles bag for that unexpected coup de gras. Never had occasion to use it and finally gave it up as unnecessary extra weight to lug around. The only stuff in there anymore is a couple of candy bars some water and a book. I've trimmed the amount of junk in my shooting bag down to enough for a couple of reloads + the ram rod tools in case of a need to clean the gun.

Well, there was that time I was hunting with my Hawken, up in a tree-stand, back in VA. Picture this--20 feet off the ground, standing on a 2' X 2' platform, in a tree that was not all that big and swaying a little in the wind. We were deer hunting, but turkeys are legal in the fall and something/somebody jumped a turkey and it flew up into a tree at around 75 yards. So I drew down, clean miss. Turkey just looked around and sat there. I'm re-loading, keeping one eye on the bird and one on what I'm doing, trying not to fall outta the tree. Stealth was more important than speed, I was trying to make myself and my movements as small as possible. Shot #2, clean miss again. Had to be the wind blowin' the tree around.

Now the turkey knows something is not right, and is looking around, but still just sits there. I'm re-loading again, tryin' not to fall outta the tree, and just as I get 'er re-loaded and I'm slowly raising the rifle to shoot, I hear my pard walking up, thinking I've got one on the ground, and the turkey sees him and flies. Which was too bad because I'm 100% certain the third shot would've got him.

I was ML hunting for elk and that early there is a lot of daylight.Time frame is late 70's.By Thursday I was getting sleepy in the AM.I was sitting up against a tree with my Hawkin leaning ona nother,half asleep.Maybe all asleep and I hear foot steps.I figured it was my brother and I turned around to ask him if he saw anything.There is a 5x bull staring me at about 10 ft.

I grabbed the rifle and drew down on the bull. Now at 15 feet, and the damn thing would not fire. Got to remember to pull hammer back in high stress situations.Finally remember after almost pulling the trigger thru the guard.

Still half sitting and I was swinging on the bull who is now at about 20 ft and wondering what the hell is this. As I touched off the round, I swung directy into pine tree about 1 foot in front of the muzzle.Blowing everything everywhere.

I was shooting BP and after the smoke cleared,the bull is still standing there.Not spooked at all. So I grabbed everything I had and started to reload.Damn maxiball got hung up 1/2 way down bore and the wooden ram rod that came with the gun broke in half. The bull walks off, I'm dumb founded.

The bull then walks down over the hill towards where I did not know my brother was and I hear a shot.Hot darn, at least someone killed the sucker.So I rush down and my brother is standing there perplexed.He saw the bull comimg ,set the set trigger and as he was bringing the rifle up,the hair trigger went off an the bullet heads to the moon.

Luckiest bull elk on the planet and we never saw another elk the rest of the week.

We all ain't Daniel Boone starting off.

Great story, everybody that's hunted any amount of time has one or two like that. I've forgotten to cock the hammer before myself, but that was on a lever gun.



You see, this is why I keep tellin' ya to sleep in and hunt in the evenings.

A patched round ball is the way to go in a traditional muzzleloader. It's accurate....

When I had my white super 91 I used a 460 grain superslug with 90 grains of pyrodex ..talk about knockdown.

You have never hunted elk better to STFU

Lot's o' times.

Oldy, he ain't never going to shut up. He's one of those rare individuals who get a kick outta saying stupid sh** on the internet.

As are you....it seems...

I hate gutting an elk out with a flash light in my mouth in the dark more than I hate sleepy.Then there is the problem of finding the dead elk in the dark, Then finding my way out of a tangleed mass of blow downs. Of course now with these new LED head lamps, there might be a better way.

Like Stick would say "She has an imagination"

Elk were wiped out in the east before conicals were invented. Wonder how that happened?

DIdn't do well in History? When exactly were Conicals invented?

The story about waking up to find an elk staring at you reminded me of the time I fell asleep with my back against a stump and woke up to the sound of what I thought was my buddy walking up on me too. Turned out to be a little fork horn whitetail. Shot him from 25 feet away, with an original '61 Springfield and minie ball. Ye gods and little fishes I never saw such a nasty wound and as much blood sprayed out through the bushes as that. Fittingly it was in a wood lot next to the Antietam battlefield.

Saddlesore,
I know what you mean about gutting in the dark - but this is one area where new technology is helpful in elk hunting. We have started carrying a couple of "light sticks" to hang near the carcass if we are coming back to pick it up in the night. They shine pretty good and it helps that last few hundred feet that the gps might not. Trying to read a gps and still have night vision to crawl over blowdowns is a pain! I have also started carrying those little LED lanterns that have 6-8 bulbs. You can lay your knife or saw down beside the carcass and still see it without having to swing your headlight all over to find it.

Johnny $

Nothing to it with a good headlamp. You'll wonder why you didn't sleep in later.

And you know I'm just pulling your leg, I like to hunt early too, just seem to have better luck in the evening.

Thats just great.

Please send the pics!

Don't you know cameras, along with conicals, weren't invented yet?

naa he takes photos with a Ni�pce camera
so what is that camera you ask ?
Well Nic�phore Ni�pce is the Thomas Edison of photography .
Thus the first actual photograph �as we think of them today � was taken in 1817 .
Problem was he didn�t have good film and the photos disappeared not long after they were taken . But he shortly got that figured out and by 1827 he was getting permanent photos .
If one would like , they could go back even farther to the pin hole cameras of the 16th century .

So when did the eastern elk become extinct ?


Seems those dates for all but the very eastern locations would put them well after Niepce�s cameras.


. Well lets see ,,,,Claude-�tienne Mini� designed his minie ball in 1849
Then you have Henri-Gustave Delvigne who invented a bullet in 1826. But in reality that was reall still a ball
But Greener Himself designed a flat based ball in 1836 .

The above though is old knowledge . Today we now know that at least in some cases , French sharpshooters were using elongated projectiles and it would appear also some colonial sharpshooters since they were found during a recent dig at the battle of Monmouth




So now did conical projectiles exist prior to the extinction of the eastern sub species of elk by 1860 ?

No

The Rifle-Musket and the Mini� Ball
by Allan W. Howey

In 1836, a London gunsmith named William Greener found a way to improve Norton's design for expansion of the bullet base. He inserted into the hollow area a wooden plug that would push forward when the gun was fired and force the bullet's base outward. The result was that the bullet fit more uniformly inside the barrel, producing more reliable and accurate fire.

Norton's bullet with Greener's refinement eventually came before the British army for approval for use in the field, but the army's old-school officers rejected it. It was an overly conservative decision that squandered the opportunity to develop this innovative design into a truly remarkable weapon.

Several years after Norton had begun developing his hollow-base bullet, French weapons experts began working on a similar design. Eventually, three French army officers would share the credit for what would become the mini� bullet: Captain Henri-Gustave Delvigne, Colonel Louis-Etienne de Thouvenin, and Captain Claude-Etienne Mini�.

Delvigne led the way when he designed a muzzleloading rifle to fire a new type of bullet. In 1826, Delvigne built a unique rifle barrel with an independent gunpowder chamber at its breech. This chamber was separated from the rest of the barrel by a strong lip, beyond which the powder could pass, but not the bullet. In the earliest models, after the chamber was filled with gunpowder, Delvigne rammed a standard soft, round lead ball down the barrel and pounded it against the lip with the ramrod until it flattened just enough to grip the rifling grooves. He soon discovered, however, that the pounding disfigured the ball and greatly reduced its accuracy, so he designed an elongated, cylindrical bullet with a flat base that would expand more evenly under the ramrod blows. In 1840, Delvigne even received a patent for an explosive bullet of this general design. (Imagine pounding that down a rifle barrel!) In time, Delvigne's design proved unsuitable for general military use; the powder chamber quickly became clogged, and the bullet still ended up too deformed for accurate flight.

In 1828, Thouvenin modified and improved upon Delvigne's gun design. He replaced the lip and powder chamber inside the barrel with a hard metal post that screwed into the gun's breech. After loading, the flat base of the elongated, cylindrical lead bullet rested upon the post in a position to be easily and uniformly forced into the rifling grooves when compressed by the ramrod. The Thouvenin design was a moderate improvement over Delvigne's, and the French army selected it for trials in 1846. The gun and bullet combination was still not practical for widespread military use; the rifle breech was very difficult to clean, and the metal post was prone to breaking.

Delvigne's developments inspired Mini�, who had served with the French Chasseurs in several African campaigns, to do further work toward making an efficient, effective bullet. In 1849, he came up with one that more closely resembled Norton's than Delvigne's. Like Norton's bullet, Mini�'s had a hollow cylindrical base and a rounded conical nose. Mini� also incorporated a plug in the bullet's hollow base to assist expansion, just as Greener had done to Norton's design. Instead of a wooden plug, however, Mini� used an iron cup, which in effect served the same purpose as Thouvenin's metal post. The explosion of the gunpowder would drive the iron cup forward and expand the bullet's base to fit the rifling grooves snugly.

By this point in the story, it should not be surprising to learn that the French army never adopted the new bullet. It took the British army to use it in their new 1851 Enfield rifles, paying Mini� 20,000 pounds for his patent. The army also had to pay Greener 1,000 pounds, after he won a patent infringement lawsuit over the bullet's plug design. The bullet as it would be used by the soldiers in blue and gray was now virtually complete. It had also acquired the name that stuck among English-speaking troops�minnie ball, even though the captain's French surname was properly pronounced min-YAY and his innovation was not a ball but a cone-shaped bullet.

In the early 1850s, James H. Burton, a master armorer at the U.S. arsenal at Harpers Ferry, Virginia, gave the mini� bullet the form it would take into the Civil War. By lengthening the bullet slightly and thinning the walls of its hollow base, Burton was able to dispense with the iron plug. The base of the improved bullet expanded just as well as Mini�'s but was much easier and cheaper to mass-produce. By the mid-1850s, the fully evolved mini� bullet made it possible to build an infantry weapon as easy to load as the old smoothbore musket but with the accuracy and range of a rifle. The term rifle-musket reflected the weapon's lethal combination of attributes.

U.S. Secretary of War Jefferson Davis, future president of the Confederacy, adopted the rifle-musket and mini� bullet for the U.S. Army in 1855. An improved version of the rifle-musket�the 1861 model built by the federal armory in Springfield, Massachusetts�became the principal infantry weapon of Northern soldiers in the Civil War.

so since the last knowneastern elk recourded was killed in Pennsylvania on September 1, 1877 .
and the sub species its was not declared as extinct by the United States Fish and Wildlife Service in 1880 you would once again be blowing info out your backside

Nothing about hunting......laffin'

you did not say hunting , you said and i quote



so as to part 1 , your are wrong . it did not happen for some 50 years after the development and patent of what is commonly accepted as the conical we know it today .

as to part two , can you say market hunting by those who actually did kill hundreds of elk in their lifetime
was the RB used for that hunting . you bet it was . but they also didn�t give a rats ass how many they wounded either . much the same ethics as was used years later on the buffalo
but even then i would point out that by the later 1/2 of the 19th century , muzzleloaders were NOT the only guns around
so prove that the decline of the eastern elk was do to the use of only the PRB by market hunters

I am shocked.

As am I

Captchee, you are arguing with someone who will not admit they are wrong

As a wise man once said "he's making another pass, I can hear the trolling motor......"

Naaa not arguing at all Oldelkhunter just make a point for others so at least give some base of research in the bla bla thread .

There is no real need to argue . Things are what they are .
You ask when the conical were invented .
I took that as an honest question and hopefully gave you a reasonable answer .
Swampman said they did not exists when the eastern elk become extinct .
I basically gave information concerning an accepted timeline for when that happened .

Thus people can draw their own conclusions based on that information OR hopefully fined it interesting enough to take it upon themselves to research more on the subject .

Thus when such a subject or question comes up again some time . They will then have the knowledge to state an opinion with something more then just bla bla bla .
See to me , these forums are about learning from others . Not arguing .



yep the smell of 2 stroke motor oil is defiantly in the air concerning this thread

I wonder if ol' Swamplicker has a bullseye tattooed on his forehead? 'Twould be appropriate.

I'd admit I was wrong if I ever was.

Tundragriz, that is a great bull. Especially for a muzzleloader.
I found some (20)405 gr powerbelt hollow points testerday 30 miles from home. Maybe they will be accurate?

Sorry, but isn't the pt gold a saboted bullet. blackhorn powder guy i know shoots the hornady fpb with 90=120 blackhorn or the Thor bullet by barnes. This is serious as i once hilled a huge 5x5 herd bull that had a 54 cal hollow base bullet stuck in a rib by the heart(perfect ml shot from what i could tell). i guess it was the year before as it was sealed by scar tissue internally but still had a little pus draining externally. it also had a big old style broadhead stuck in the side of the lumbar spine at the tenderloin. he was breeding a nice herd when i hit him with a 270 wby with a bearclaw. fun was over. rc

or fffg

no way would i shoot a bull with a round ball in my experience. i've had some difficulty retrieving chest shot big deer and antelope there. rc

i have done well with this same treatment, plus one book muley. his body size reminded me of a medium size cow elk. that is good to 150 yds in my opinion.

10-4

my hawken didnt like the maxi-hunters, but loved those 370 tc maxiballs.

a patched round ball stuck in a shoulder is worse than a miss. don't a bunch of you guys know outfitters who curse 50 cal rb shooters. its worse than animosity-it borders on hatred. rc

they found a lot of dead elk laying in water-several days later.

Rb is a good projectile . its proven . the problem is that far to many folks dont take the time or have the dedication
As to outfitters ?? Well I submit many folks feel the same about them .
and thats speaking as a former archer, centerfire shooter and traditional muzzleloading hunter . thank god we here have at least a game commission withsome reasoning to what they do. outfitter animosity-,hatred ohh ya and then some . has nothing to do with round balls eather

eastern forests didnt offer the shooter back then 200 yards shot either.

i cant disagree with you .
but you dont have to take that 200 yard shoot now do you .
also you didn�t have some outfitter who you just paid 3500 -10,000 for a so called guaranteed shot standing over your shoulder pointing at a deer or elk at 200 yards , whispering ; thats your shot , you want it ?
they dont get away with that during archery season . but the sure as hell try during a muzzleloader hunt .

i hear this BS all the time and its not just about round balls . its in every discipline . fixed broad head vs retractable . compound vs traditional vs cross bows .
in muzzle loading its the modern guys against the more traditional folks . then its the big conical shooters vs the sabot and pistol projectile shooters .
in fishing it barbed vs unbarbed . on mountain roads its the 4x4 guys against the ATV rider .
on the rivers its the rafters against the jet boat user .
In hunting it�s the large gage hunters against the small gage hunter .
OHHH if you use a .410 your wounding to many birds . If its not a 16 or better you need to stay home , bla , bla bla , bla bla

its simple , use what you want but do it responsibly .
If your not proficient with your weapon . If you don�t know your accurate range and the effective range of your load , then stay the HELL home .