recently picked up an almost new tc hawken 50 cal. got the gun with 200 roundballs, pound of ffg swiss and accesories. new to bp so any help would be appreciated. how well can they expect to shoot and how do the patched roundballs preform on game(hogs/deer)?

Range limitations are not a concern as latly i am more interested in getting close for shots, less than 50 yards. thanks in advance
david

Loaded with 70 grains or more, you can expect full pass through on deer and hogs with a broadside shot at 50 yards (or more). The game's reaction to the shot will be pretty similar to what you get with any firearm - some drop on the spot, some run a bit. But any reasonably well placed shot will do the job quite well.

thanks, never had any experience with a muzzleloader. but have had the itch for a while. thinking it will be my go to gun for the year. guess theres just something to be said about doing it the hard way. like the thought of an added challange

Patched balls and Goex fffg black powder is all I shoot in my T/C Hawken. I have a 65 yard range off my back deck and the gun will consistently shoot cloverleaf groups at that range with a .490 Hornady ball, .015" pre lubed cotton patch and 75 grs. powder. On game performance is as stated above.

use pretty much the same rig except i shoot 85 gr. they were killing deer with them many years ago and they still work. I do shoot the hornady great plains also in my mz. 385 gr hp. complete pass throughs. usually drops them right in their tracks.

thanks, does anyone have any experience useing roundballs cast from wheel weights or are they to hard?

i've never cast my own. a friend used to collect used wheel weights to cast for a .45 flintlock pistol. he said after they were melted and he skimmed all the impurities, that it worked pretty good. I've got some he made and have shot them. no problems.

ok. have a pretty much unlimited supply, pry got 6-700 ponds outside as of now. mostly used em for 45-70 and 357 bullets. used em to cast slugs when i was home in iowa since thats all the dnr will let us hunt deer with up there

Look up writings by Ross Seyfried on the subject. I personnally have not seen an article where he didn't use round balls and real black while using muzzleloaders.

i've shot deer with roundballs in .45, .50, .54, and .58...

.50 and above, cant tell much difference in killing power on deer sized game, all folded up either on the spot or fairly quickly.

saw a couple of instances where the .45 balls didn't plow through as much meat as i would have liked, and ball broke the shoulder but didnt make it into the body cavity. (still got the deer though.)

almost forgot, wheelweights cast a ball that is a few thousandths oversize, as they dont shrink as much as pure lead when cooling. that, and the harness, makes them a summabeech to seat.

I "inherited" about 600 lbs of plumbers lead, it is darn soft but WOW does it work on deer. I use RBs in my 45 cliber flintgun, 50 and 58 cal percussion rifles. I tried cast Minea bullets in my 58 and they are just too destructive. Can't eat right up to the hole like you can with RBs.

The round ball an maxi still work fine an don't need them inlines much

Thanks for the info guys! I too am new to 'muscle-loaders' with the gift of a TC Hawken, but as I can buy double or more roundball for the cost ofcast bullets, I am initislly going to go this way, me thinks

I shot more than a few deer over the years with a .50 caliber half-stock percussion gun, using a patched round ball over 50gr. Goex FFFg. It was by far the most accurate load in that gun, and while labeled 'light' by a lot of guys, it killed with alacrity. Stick them where they are meant to be stuck and that load does the job. I called it my '50-50 gun'.

No point/sense in 'magnumizing' a ML firing a patched round ball. Work up a good accurate load somewhere between 50-70 gr. FFFg, and save powder and kill deer.

I have since switched most of my ML deer hunting to a .45 half-stock percussion gun with a PRB over 60 gr. FFFg. I can't tell a lick of difference from the '50-50 gun'.

Your wheelweight metal may work ok, but I would lay in soft lead too. Might well work better.

I agree with Gnoahhh... my deer load in my older caplock .50 caliber CVA Hawken Carbine with a 24 inch barrel is only 65 grains of Swiss FFFg with a vegetable fiber over-powder wad and a 16/1000ths patch wrapped around a .490 Hornady swaged ball and lubed with a mixture of bee's wax and liquid Crisco vegetable oil.

And even with the little CVA's light weight (6� lbs), recoil is mild and the deer fall down dead or only run a short distance if you put the ball in their "kill zone". And the rifle's short barrel makes for a short overall length (39 inches) which makes the little CVA cap-lock handy in the bush or woods.

Accuracy with that load is excellent... with the 3 balls in a 3-shot group making a tight "cloverleaf" at 25 yards. My self-imposed range limit is 75 yards with iron sights and even with these 76 year old eyes, I won't put a scope on a traditional muzzle loader... that's sacrilege!!!


Strength & Honor...

Ron T.

second that.

don't mean to hijack but was watching a hunting show one time. said they were hunting buffalo old school. i thought this might be allright. they were in buckskins , riding horses across the plain. stop and i almost can't say it.... pulled modern inline mz with scopes out of their scabbards.

That'll teach you to watch those "hunting" shows.

got that right. for some reason i've never been able to kill one of those monster bucks on the last day of the season as the precious legal shooting light is going down , the whole time while talking to my buddy. i'm sure if i did, i'd dance around like i was having a seziure also.
(note my blatant sarcasm)

I shoot PRB's and mostly .54's.
Never had trouble killing deer with them too.
Although i have stockpiled a bit of lead, I find plenty of lead balls by Speer and Hornady sitting unwanted in dusty boxes on the shelves of stores. Usually marked down in price or the box has a 10 year old price sticker.
After all, Nobody shoots those things anymore, Right?
My Gain.

Ya know... we hunt and shoot these traditional muzzle loaders to have fun and because we've decided that we wanna do it this way... even if it puts us at a disadvantage.

Naturally, we all know we'd have a better chance of taking game with an in-line or a center-fire rifle, but we choose to stick to the old time flintlocks and cap-locks because they DO demand greater skill, present a greater challenge and demand of us a more patience "attitude" in order to put venison in the freezer.

Each of us should feel a sense of pride in realizing we have fully accepted and are fully content with the additional challenges and restrictions plus the additional amount of effort we've created for ourselves when we are STILL able to successfully get done what we came to do.

Jus' my 2�...


Strength & Honor...

Ron T.

dbfuller,

Go to the traditional muzzleloading forum or American longrifles forums and you will get all the info you will ever need. I am presently putting together a parts set for a French trade gun in 20 ga smoothbore. I have killed a good number of deer with a patched round ball and they are deadly.

Qtip
Soli Deo Gloria!

I shoot patched round ball with 3fg Goex in my 50 caliber rifles. These can be very accurate if you take time to work up a load for your rifle.





Loads don't have to be heavy to kill game. This was a complete pass through, bang-flop kill with 60 grains of 3-f black powder and a patched round ball.


Remember, men were killing every critter under the sun with patched round balls long before we got here. They still work just as well today as they did then.

I use patched round balls in my 50 with FF. The pure lead RB is a deadly killer.

I agree with the previous posters. PRBs in .54 caliber caplock rifle over a hunting charge of FFg have never failed to take deer for me. While the .54 is my personal choice, I would not hesitate to use PRBs in a .50 to hunt deer.

Finally got out to shoot it today as the local range wont allow bp guns. Shot bout 15 rounds and i have to say I'm impressed. Plunked down the money and bought a rb mold. My next ? is, is there a big difference in what you use for patching? and the thickness? Don't know if they can be as finicky as a smokeless gun as far as componets. thanks

David

patch thickness will play a role. you can experiment with different thickness , powder and bullet. back when i used to cut my own with a patch knife, we'd go by fabric shops and get scrap material to use.

I have a sh** load of pillow ticking that seems to work ok. was doing about 3 3/4 inches for 5 shots off shooting sticks at 100 yards. 70 grs of swiss ffg and the icking for a patch. should works as far as im concerned. time to go bust some hogs

David

that's what i've used . should be fine.

I built a 62 cal 42" barrel custom hawken or trade rifle kit
I forget which, but it will throw a 62 cal patched ball into a 2"-2.5" 100 yard group most of the time from a bench rest and Im sure its old eyes keeping the groups that large, and its effective on deer hogs and the one stupid elk that wondered out in front of it at 80 yards

I load a 110 grains of 1F a cosmetic cotton ball as a powder gasket then a well lubed greased patch and round ball firmly seated
that round ball looked like a 50 cent piece ,on that elk found against the far side hide and it leaves a impressive hole
I don,t know if they are still available, its got a 1 1/8" barrel and its like carrying a truck axle heavy, but its damn effective


http://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/617/1

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/615/1

OK. maybe a dumb question but how much will of a powder charge can these reasonably be expected to hold and shoot safely? I am happy with the 70 gr load but dont know if a little experimentation mite shrink the groups. At the same time dont wanta blow up the gun/hands/face

the pressure differs with the bore size, expansion ratio and projectile weight plus the powder and type and granulation
Ive owned and shot at least a dozen or more BP rifles and most of my friends are well into them also

as a general rule using round balls AND PATCHES ONLY Ive found these to be about ball park loads to get both accuracy and high velocity

45 cal-60-70 grains 3f or 2f
50cal 70-80 grains 3f or 2f
54 cal 85-95 grains 3f-or 2f
58 cal 80-95 grains 2f or 1f
62 cal 95-110 grains 1f

obviously youll want to experiment as patch, lube twist and rifle groove depth effect results
your never going to get extremely high velocity but don,t be overly concerned the rifles are still deadly with proper shot placement and these loads



BTW I have yet to see the BP rifle that does not increase the accuracy and shot to shot consistency by inserting a cosmetic cotton ball you can get at any drug store between the powder charge and a really soaking dripping wet with lube, patch around the ball, keeping the bore surface well lubed and fairly free of burnt black powder residue helps consistency and accuracy and the cotton ball helps prevent the lube from contaminating the powder charge, just be sure to mark your ram rod because the ball,patch and cotton ball must be firmly compressed over the powder charge

David,

The answer to your question about patch thickness making a difference? Yes, it can make a big difference.

In my experience muzzle-loaders can be just as finicky as modern rifle barrels. Some will shoot just about any load combination well and others are very particular.

Working up a load for your muzzle-loader isn't much different than working up a good handload for your centerfire rifles. I approach it in this sequence;

Start with the recommended ball size and patch thickness. (Say a 490 ball with a 10 thick patch for a 50 caliber rifle.)

Choose a powder granulation. In 50 caliber both 2-fg and 3-fg can produce good groups. (I use 3-fg because I can also use it in my pistols)

Choose a brand of percussion caps and stick with that same brand while testing the other components.

The powder charge is the first variable I work with. I wipe the bore between shots and keep notes until I find the sweet spot on the powder measure.

Collect your fired patches and examine them for signs of burn through, cuts and tears, or slippage. If these signs are present you will want to try a thicker or thinner patch.

You may also need to try smaller or larger balls. Both 480 and 495 size are available in 50 caliber.

When you find the patch thickness / ball size combination that doesn't allow gas to escape around the sides or burn through (examine your fired patches) you can experiment with different lubes.

When you have found the best combination of powder charge, patch thickness/material, lube, and ball size you can try different brands / types of percussion caps. Some rifles will show a preference for caps, standard or magnum, and one brand may work better than another.

At some point you may want to weigh and sort the balls. Round balls that are lighter than the others will have voids or bubbles inside. Those won't balance and stabilize and they won't shoot into a tight group.

Another variable to consider is what you use to clean and lube your barrel. I have one rifle that will not group with Bore Butter in it's barrel. Some times it pays to check that.

When you have found the powder charge your rifle shoots best be sure to weigh that charge on your scales and record it.
If you ever loose your powder measure and have to replace it, that can save a lot of trouble if the two measures don't measure exactly the same.

After all that, I will go back and test my powder charge again working up and down from that best charge in case all the other changes I've made have effected that. You may also want to try a different granulation. As a general rule of thumb, 50 calibers and smaller are at their best with 3-f and larger calibers perform best with 2-f. But that isn't always true. Some rifle barrels want to go against the rules.

Just like tuning a load for a center-fire rifle, you may not need or want to go through all those steps. You can stop experimenting at any point the rifle is shooting groups that are acceptable to you.

Only one of my three 50 caliber percussion rifles required going through that entire process. The other two shot well as soon I found the best powder charge.

They both like 490 balls and 10 patches just fine and they don't care what lube I use. Pre-cut pre-lubed patches shoot just fine. I have used different lubes including Crisco, white grease, spit, Bore Butter, and lard with good results. Those rifles are not finicky at all.

My "finicky" rifle showed improvement / preferences for every variable I tried. If I change any element of the load it shows in the groups. Whether that's good or bad may be open for opinion. It is the most accurate rifle I have and the one I shoot in competition.

This rifle showed sweet spots for 40 grains and 80 grains of powder. It also shot better with 495 balls and thick patches.
The 40 grain loads shoot tighter groups with 20 thick denim patching and moose milk lube. While the best 80 grain load takes an 18 thick ticking patch and mink oil lube. If I change anything about those loads it shows in the groups.

With this "picky" rifle I have bought enough patching material to last a long time. I don't want to run out of it and not be able to find the exact same stuff. That might require going through the entire process again.

This was a long winded answer to a simple question. Yes, patch thickness can make a difference. You will just need to experiment to see if it makes a difference in your rifle. Let us know what you find.

Patched round balls are the only way to shoot traditional muzzleloaders as far as I am concerned. I have a semi-custom flintlock in .40 caliber and a Lyman GPR in .54. They both are rifled slow twist for roundballs. I have a 1970s vintage Parker Hale musket reproduction and that is designed for minie balls as a civil war musket.

For deer they seem to work fine. For elk over 100 yards conicals or sabots. The ballistic coeffecient for a RB is the lowest of any projectile you can create.

While that is true; sometimes what is on paper does not always tell the whole story. Although I have only hunted deer myself; many folks on the traditional muzzleloading forums have killed bear, moose, elk., etc. with PRB and have done so cleanly and with one shot. Like anything you just have to be aware of the limitations of your weapon. The problem today is that with hi-vel calibers and magnum rounds; coupled with hi-power optics many folks are shooting beyond their capabilities; while the gun itself maybe quite capable. Someone not able to shoot a modern gun at 300 yds.; but does, is being just as unethical as the traditional hunter who can't shoot at 100 yards and does.

Qtip
Soli Deo Gloria!

Lots of good advice. Just one note. Ground squirrel hunting is upon us. Take a ML along for the practice. I have used 50 gr. FF with a patched .490 round ball. When you do connect it's fun. Hit low on a mound and you get an air bourned squirrel or if you connect midway on the squirrel usually have an interesting sight!

yep love to hunt whisle pigs with my 54 .
smack them center and it will gut em , clean em and hang em all in one shot

I have used T.C. sidelocks and patched round balls for most of my teens and adult years since a .50 cal T.C. "Kit Gun" found it's way under the Christmas tree when I was 13. It was my only deer rifle for several years as we live in a shotgun/muzzleloader only area. All I ever shot was PRB's out of it. 70 grains FFFG was the sweet spot with Speer roundballs. They have taken Deer, squirels, rabbits, hogs, groundhogs with complete satisfaction. This includes my first two deer taken from ground level as fast as I could reload the gun.

It has been recommended to only pour up pure lead into roundballs and maxi's for muzzleloaders to be sure thry "stay together" and objurate (SP?) to the bore. To the original poster, Sam Fadala has a series of really informative blackpowder books to help get you started, from how to clean and set up, to finding your optimum load, to hunting with them. They are pretty good reads.

I picked up a .45 T.C. last summer and broke it in on this deer on it's maiden hunting trip during early muzzleloader season last fall. 60 grains FFFG under a PRB. The deer was shot from 20 feet away while still hunting. Complete pass through, very short blood trail. Complete sacriledge

I'll be using a PRB for elk and muley's this year.

TC Renegade .54 with RB barrel.

.530 cast ball

.018 pillow ticking with mink oil lube

90gr Swiss 2F

Bet that was a thrill?

I have two T/C .54 cal rifles, a New Englander and a Renegade. Both shoot the same accuracy load, a Hornady .535 dia round ball wrapped in a .015" thick, pre-cut, pre-lubed patch over 85gr FFFg GOEX. My hunting load for maximum range found a sweet spot at 105gr FFFg GOEX with the same ball/patch combo.

Both bores are so smooth that even with such a tight fit, I don't get cut patches.

Ed

It was pretty cool. I set up a friend in the best spot I could find for him to shoot his first Maryland deer. I then wandered off for a couple hundred yards and set up with my back to a large red oak 30 yards from a white oak that was dropping. I had been there maybe 30 minutes when I heard deer moving quickly in my direction. A doe popped out from my left and continued to run right at me. Each time she had cover between us I moved to get the shot. She cleard the last small tree about ten feet infront of me. I shot her just infront of the near, her right, shoulder. She piled up and slid within 3 feet of my boots. I heard the second deer veer off about the same place the first deer appeared moving left to right in front of me. I took out the bleat call and held it in my lips after giving it one small call. Meanwhile I took off the cap from the nipple and poured the quickloader into the barrel. Hit the bleat call one more time as I started the ball. The deer started moving more toward me but still going from left to right. I slid the ball home, capped the nipple, and cocked the hammer as I blew the next bleat to cover the noise. The chest of the deer came into an opening about 20 yards infront of me and stopped. I centered the front post and eased the trigger back. The eight point made it, maybe 40 yards before he collapsed.

The gun was my old faithful .50 T.C. Kit sidelock. PRB over 70 grains FFFG. My buddy did not see anything and accused me of holding out on him. I told him it must be the South Carolina swamp mud between his toes that spooked them all away !!