I'm in two fantasy football leagues, one I'm dominating, the other I'm a playoff team. Between the two, I stand to win a fairly large sum even if I don't win the bowl. Last year I got second place in one and made a few bucks in the other and treated myself to a Browning BLR in 243 as my "driving" gun. I intend to blow this money too. My arsenal is lacking a black powder gun and smokeless appeals to me considering I live in a "no center fire" area. Smokeless seems logical?

Should I get one of the savage ml2 or get a Remington 700ml and get the conversion done with a 45cal? Which and why?

Why smokeless . Thier are no better then Black powder . If like u say u want a great muzzleloader go with the Aulitmate 500 yard gun .O r just go with the most Accrate muzzleloader aroung.The CVA accra ,250 or less yards, thier great for the money

Sort of a contradiction.

You caught the drift

The lack of cleaning appeals to me. Rifle like ballistics in a slug gun only area=win?

Both shoot great. The 700ML converted is a little more personalized and appeals to me since you find and build it rather than just buy it off of the shelf.

I dont know if I can blow even fantasy money on what it would take to make a 700. Thinking a Savage would do just fine. If only I can find a stainless synthetic.

thats becouse he isnt looking for a black powder gun or a muzzleloader what he is looking for a muzzleloading rifle.


if we are talking fantasy money and your wanting a BP gun , then I would suggest getting a proven , truly long range gun. In order to do that your going to have to put the inlines aside and go traditional long rang rifles . Like Tryon , Rigby , Mortimer ��
But that�s going to also mean that your going to have to learn to clean the gun and take care of it .
Simply put , BP guns are not in the world of Ronco . There is no such thing as a set it and forget it

May I recommend looking at a Encore. There are some really sweet smokeless 45 aftermarket barrels for them. Pac Nor is one company. If you get on Dougs Message Board someone there will be able to direct you. Plus if you ever go to sell it you can sell the frame to anyone and the barrel to another Smokeless fan.

Just my two cents

Pac-Nor makes a smokeless barrel that goes on like any other barrel for an Encore? Anybody got one want to comment on how they shoot?

http://dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=smokeless

Guessin' the first place for you to start is a brain scan.

Sorry to sound so gruff (not really), but just a friendly suggestion of sorts...you could actually get a BP gun and shoot real BP and lead, and in the process find out they are as easy to clean as smokeless. Easier in some cases actually. They tend to be accurate, reliable (assuming you are diligent), and (oh, the horror!) they kill chitt dead. Atop all that, you won't be caught in the woods looking like you found a gun in the wreckage of a Klingon battle cruiser. Too, as Capchee said, you might even go for the gold and have something worthy of the 1,000 yard line.

During 40+ years of shooting black powder I have never felt put out by having to clean a BP gun at the end of the day. The thing with smokeless vs. black is, you'll be cleaning the gun after use anyway, right? Right? Just use hot soapy water instead of the noxious chemicals generally used for smokeless cleanup. Like DD said, you might find that the BP residue is easier to clean in the long run.

Trust me, as a fellow Marylander, our deer die just as dead with BP as with smokeless.

I am delighted with the practicality of my Savage smokeless. It is a great hunting tool. IMO, smokeless made the blued version viable as I haven't learned to like stainless.
Cleaning the Savage is absolutely nothing like that required by the BP guns. This appeals to me.
I don't have the interest (energy? enthusiasm?) I once had to go thru all the motions to keep on top of my old flintlock. Guess the same can be said for my percussion gun. Both have successfully taken deer for me.
I would not feel bad about your Remington idea either, but the Savages seem to simply perform well straight out of the box.

But in the late 60s to early 70 Black powder was the only way to go .The hunting season was Muzzleloading an Black Powder hunting.
Back in the early times with the M.L. season was more fun u had to learn how to shoot the gun ,the powder charge, the cap.where they hit and yhe looks brought u back in time . The Muzzleloaders of today is buy the gun dump 49 gr of modern powder an a sabot bullet an shoot. The big thing with me is WHY A 209 WHEN A RIFLE PRIMMER WOULD BE WAY BETTER LIKE THE OLD ACCRA SHOTS

Blah, blah, blah...

looks like people saying no smokeless haven't really owned one. smokeless is one hell of a lot more easier to deal with.

If you shoot Blackhorn 209 you won't need smokeless it cleans to bare steel with a couple patches of hopes #9. buy an encore , couple jugs bh 209 magnum 209 primers an go kill chit .. the end

WOW
do you really think that there is anyone here that has not shot smokeless ?
That no one has ever cleaned a rifle that shot smokeless ?
Now speaking personally , I have never owned and never will own a muzzle loading rifle that shoots smokeless. Frankly the idea of it boggles my mind .

Myself I believe that the real and true statement to your opinion is that many here have never shot true BP . Instead they believe the hype they read and then repeat it .
Or in a even smaller case , the tried it a couple times . Never took the time to work a load , learn the rifle ���
Frankly I find it takes a whole lot less time to clean my muzzleloaders , then it does to properly clean my center fire rifles .
In Fact , if one is worried about getting their hands dirty while cleaning a barrel that used BP . So what . How many just painted their face with camo paint or squirted any manor of animal piss on their bodies .
For god sakes man , you washable . If it takes longer for you to clean a BP rifle then it does to get all that other nasty off your body , then your doing something WRONG

If you want to own a BP rifle , then BUY a black powder rifle .
If you want a muzzle loading rifle , then buy one .
If you want that to be smokeless . Then ha , go buy that . Its your money and you will be spending lots of it over the life of your rifle . Well unless you don�t shoot it often . Which means your not cleaning it often anyway . So what the hell difference does it make

Why so much drama?
You guys sound like a bunch of girls talking about a cheating boyfriend. The OP asked opinions about two rifles that load from the muzzle and shoot smokeless powder, and I am sure he'd like opinions from people who have had at least one of them.
Op, PM TiminTN, he has done the Savage for sure and may have converted a 700 ML.
The rest of you guys need to go buy some tampons...sheesh

I have a couple of sidelocks. I have a TC Greyhawk and a Renegade that I put a Green Mountain LRH barrel on with Globe front and Vernier rear. They only get used for draw hunts in states that require lead bullets and open ignition.

I'm about to head to USPS to pick up a 700ML that will get rebarreled with a Pac-nor. I have a NULA 209 also. This afternoon I am taking a Savage ML-II hunting. I got started into this when I shot a friend's Bad Bull muzzleloader.

I don't muzzleload for the challenge of the hunt. I have a longbow for that (I don't shoot compounds). I like rifles and smokeless muzzleloaders are new and exciting muzzleloaders to me. More than anything they let me hunt seasons I can't hunt otherwise while giving me the greatest advantage.

If you buy into the "only accurate rifles are interesting" idea than this works for me:


That's a half minute muzzleloader that is lethal to 300yds. Somehow I did my math wrong, that group is .522 MOA.

your the one chewing on your panty liner .

you want a muzzleloader , get one
whant a black powder rifle , get one
want a muzzleloading rifle , then eather buy one or convert the dam thing

you want a smokeless gun , fine say so . but dont ask for a black powder gun and exspect no one to call you on it when you start talking about smokless guns

I always thought the idea that cleaning smokeless was easier than real BP, was kind of funny.

I can clean the barrel/breech on a Hawken that's shooting real BP with one patch. Actually, I could even use that one patch over and over if I wanted too. It'also cheaper. No solvent to buy. Just a squirt of dishwashing detergent.

Smokeless has always taken 10-15 patches, and the patches were not reusable.


Cleaning shouldn't even be brought up as a reason to shoot smokeless.

Very ignorant post. I along with everyone else that I know personally that shoots smokeless muzzleloaders have never taken 10-15 patches to clean afterwards. This is also the first time I have ever heard of anyone taking that many patches to clean their smokeless muzzleloader. You don't even have one if I recall correctly? It is not necessarily all about the ease of cleaning but more of the fact that you don't have to clean.

I shoot smokeless in a Savage and a NULA. I shoot black powder (actually pyrodex) in a TC Cherokee and Renegade. Smokeless is so much easier, quicker, and less hassle to clean that there is no contest there....they aren't even in the same ballpark...they are easier all the way around. I'm really not sure how anyone can argue this one.

That being said, I still love to hunt with my TC's. I just love to hunt...with scoped smokeless ml's and with traditional iron-sighted ml's.

To the original poster woodsonchris....I have a stainless Savage bedded in a McMillan Classic swirly that I would consider selling. If you're interested shoot me a pm.

Been shooting smokeless CF guns for 60 years. Is a smokeless ML somehow different? What a clown.

Buy a Savage and don't look back.

You can clean smokeless with water and and Simple Green too.

HOLY BLACK all the way, nothing that I know of is more consistent and dependable.

Plus, nothing on this planet gives ya that satisfying BOOOOMMMMMMM!!!! like Black Powder.

Gunner

I got a savage ml2 this year for ML season. I worked up a load that shots 1" at 100 with 260gr bullets at 2275 fps. No cleaning, seating subsequent bullets is easy etc. Can't beat it.

2 years ago I shot twice at a buck and missed with my traditions ML using pyrodex pellets. Seating the third bullet required me to ram my rod against the tree I was standing next too. I don't take cleaning stuff along when I go into the woods and shooting more than once can and does happen when you have cannon ball trajectories.

Wow. This thread got pissy. Thanks to all who were actually helpful. I'll probably just buy a savage ml. People who own them seem to love em.

Well, till it went pissy there was a positive side to it. I was ignorant of the smokeless ml guns and now have something new to do with a Handi rifle I never shoot. So thanks for the post.

Just to be fair. You can take 50 shots with BH 209 with no swabbing and sub MOA accuracy at the 50th shot. Loads as easy at the 50th shot as the first. You just used the wrong powder. Pyrodex is old powder technology.

edit for content .

your right . smokeless muzzle loading rifles are black powder guns and a Mazda or Honda is also a muscle car.


https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth..._what_happened_to_the_sidelo#Post6813147

Do a Google search with this: "Savage 110ml blowup".

Yes I use 209 in that ML now and my wife uses it. If you are somehow trying to make b209 the same as smokeless, it's not. B209 costs more per can than smokeless and you get less in it, I have to use twice as much b209 (100gr by weight) vs smokeless (44gr)and get less speed. It's certainly the best you can do in old muzzle loaders.

I hate when these discussions become a who's more righteous contest. It's like the difference between guys who shoot stickbows and those who don't. I personally prefer the ergonomics of a stickbow over a compound. I also think crossbows are complete and total BS (as it applies to ARCHERY ONLY SEASON) unless you are crippled.

Muzzleloaders are any arm which loads from the muzzle vice breech without regard to propellant or projectile. The only time it should matter is if your state has a PRIMITIVE WEAPONS season. In particular, Inline and Smokeless muzzleloaders are ways for guys who live in places with bad gun laws to hunt like rifle hunters. They may well live in places where they aren't choosing to shoot front stuffers for the love of traditional sporting arms.

I own and shoot both. I own and shoot custom wildcat centerfires. I shoot a longbow. I keep up with modern rifle competition but also keep a copy of Ned Roberts's muzzleloader book and a copy of the Witchery of Archery by my bed.

This is another divide and conquer thing. Or to paraphrase Franklin, hang together or hang separately. I wish shooters and hunters would work together to create synergy for preserving our sports.

Here's the fastest way to so smokeless with your Handi:
http://www.smokelessmuzzleloading.com/

OR if you have a .45-70 contact Slufoot:
http://dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=smokeless

"This is another divide and conquer thing. Or to paraphrase Franklin, hang together or hang separately. I wish shooters and hunters would work together to create synergy for preserving our sports."
It is not a divide and conquer thing. It is pretty much a delineation of education, experience and ignorance. The latter is not a sin and can be rectified by the former.
There are several examples to be found within this thread. One illustration is the wee group at 100 yards and a claim of lethality at 300. Perhaps. If one knows the drop and windage for a relatively low BC bullet, since that is what inlines shoot for the most part. Reality is, IMO, there isn't great advantage to be found in ballistic performance from inline platforms. There is a question of safety concerning the use of smokeless powder in the Savage and certainly by manufacturer cautions on virtually all others. If one eschews smokeless powder the benefit, if any, evaporates.

The debate about cleaning is pointless. There is no propellant on the market which allows one to ignore cleaning and general maintenance. There is no argument in support of a particular propellant's superiority which is credible. They all have baggage.

i used to see it something like that . But more and more Im see it as a liberal intrusion


thats not going to happen until such time as we understand the differences between our disciplines.
Stop trying to find ways to take advantage and wiggle out acceptances . Actually start fighting to preserve those differences even when that preservation means we get excluded .

To each his own, my post was to shed light on the beliefs that Black Powder is hard to care for and clean, it's not.

I mean heck, if it was, and didnt work well, none of us would be here today, our ancestors survived on it.

Gunner

To continue (iPhones suck), in capable hands a conventional ML is compliant with regulations across the span of this country. They surrender no advantage to inlines in application within a 100 yards and if loaded with conical bullets can and do offer superiority at long range. Conventional BP offers significant advantage in ballistic consistency as compared to subs. Lead offers superiority in terminal performance at most any range though it is a moot debate within a few hundred yards. Everyone gets to pick opinions, but facts are facts. It could be that zeal and youth overwhelm common sense, but in time most folks come to separate myth from reality.

Slumlord has one of them there Savage ML and seems to enjoy it!

To delineate my experience I have shot BP in cap and ball revolvers and sidelock rifles since I was 12. I'm now 30. I've owned half a dozen Knights and 2 TC inlines. I have shot a few smokeless muzzleloaders and own two. I do 99% of my own gun work and handload for all my guns including slug guns. I shoot for a living.

I think there is a significant difference in performance. I have shot a Bad Bull using a 275gr bullet at 3148fps to 510yds. I have shot the Savage ML-II (stock rifle except for pillar bedding) with that Barnes Original to 302yds. Bullets for this discipline are getting better and better and the performance gap is growing.

I would never try that with my Renegade LRH and PP bullet.

Could I? Maybe with enough work but I spend half of my time training or deployed so I rarely put in for draws out west (I just buy preference points). I know I can come home, grab an SML, open a can of Hodgdon/IMR or Vihtavuori and get busy confirming zero and hunting during muzzleloader season.

The OP mentioned BP but I think he just mis-spoke. I am pretty sure he meant muzzleloader. His thread was hijacked over a technicality. Both courses of action he mentioned were for smokeless. While BP may clean up easily it does require more immediate maintenance. I would never shoot a BP/Sub gun and not clean it, put a load in it, and hunt with it all season.

I know for a fact you can do that with an SML. I also know for a fact my muzzleloaders are more consistent than my slug gun which was also one of his original concerns.

Zeal....meet....Reality. I'm not pickin' on you 7mm, but have to ask what you mean when you say "slug gun". Guessin' you're not talkin' the same thing I'm thinking...like 800 grain bullets and 200 grains of powder?

You understand ML lead bullets with .3-.4 BCs have been around a long, long time?

I have both a Savage 10 ML-II and a CVA Wolf In-line.

My preference goes to the Savage, although I have taken many deer with the Wolf and do like shooting Triple 7.

The Savage is more consistantly accurate. There is very little POI deviation from shot to shot. While it takes the same amount of time and energy to clean either rifle, I can sleep at night knowing I didn't clean the Savage and don't have to worry about the corrosive qualities that all non-smokeless powders possess.

The most practical advantage that the Savage has, is that there is not a lingering white smoke cloud after the shot. If the deer runs after being hit, you can immediately detect which way it traveled making tracking much easier.

738gr Hard Cast solid over a fiber wad, gas seal, and IMR 4227 or SR4759 out of this gun:

Not exactly what I was talking about, but it prompts a question or three. What caliber, what charge and how do you muzzle load a hard cast bullet? What kind of velocity are you running with that? At what distance were those targets shot?

We're a little fixed on muzzleloading. I said I handload for this. Those targets are actually with Lightfield non-discarding sabots (total slug/sabot weight is 490gr) but the one on right was shot at 50yds and the one on left is at 100yds; both are a touch under 1.5 MOA. I have shot that gun to 200yds but any kind of wind at all makes it a 125-150yds gun.

Edit: It's a 12GA with a .731 groove diameter. The full bore solids are leaving at 1200-1300fps depending on powder and charge. The non-discarding sabots are between 1300-1500fps depending on if I load them or buy Lightfield.

Edit: The two small holes in the large orange dot were shot at 302yds with 175gr NP from a 7mm Rem Mag to confirm zero before a hunt. I moved the target and broke out the slugger after.

I always thought that was one of the best parts. Along with the sweet smell of burned black powder.

It's what muzzleloader hunting is all about, and the original idea of a primitive season. Colorado put the muzzleloader season during the rut. It's supposed to an advantage to hunt during the rut, and it done because of the limitations of a muzzleloader. When you develop the ML to perform like a CF rifle. You've lost what the ML season is suppose to be.

At least in Colorado you won't be using your sabots and smokeless guns. So, that's some consolation.

Well, not to be picky, but what does that have go do with muzzleloading?

The term "slug gun" is used in historically correct form in discussions about a discipline popular from around 1880 to present. Most of the activities surrounding such guns revolved around the National Rifle Club in the early decades. Today it continues through several organizations and locations. The NRC was revitalized not too long ago and HQ is in Cody, WY. The guns used are muzzle loaders of various bores, sabots are not used but chase and strip patch are. .50 caliber is common but the largest I've seen shoot is a .56 cal which shoots a 1300 grain 2 piece bullet thru an 18 groove barrel atop 250 gr of BP. It was built by HV Perry in the late 1800s and is more bless with accuracy an precision than your bolt gun, wind be damned. Standard competition range for these guns was 220 yards, expressed then in terms of rods. Competition was had at 40, 80, and on occasion 100 rods. Score was string measure, or the aggregate of distance of bullet hole center from POA. Matches typically run 20-30 shots. The standing record string for 20 shots at 220 yards is in the range of 5-6". I do not recall the precise number at the moment.

Can't access pics at the moment, but I have a few I'll post later for the helluva it. Until then I'd suggest that we stay on topic. There's a thread in the Big Bore forum called "12 Ga. From Hell" if you want to race on that topic.

Slug Guns:

.50 cal underhammer on Mosslander barrel



Bullets, second from right us is for the .50, an 800 grain 2 piece noserider:



Bullet on right is for the Perry rifle below and is 900 grains in 1 piece form.



My point, inasmuch as these guns are not hunting rifles is to illustrate and perhaps educate. These guns illustrate what is possible w/conventional BP, that relatively high BC bullets can and have been used for many years in muzzleloaders and there isn't much new under the sun. With all respect, there is not an inline in the market place that can run with such tools, not even close.

The gun and target below are recent production. A .40 caliber which uses a GG 350 gr. bullet of pure lead. The target was shot at 100 yards with a 10 mph crosswind. The load has not been finalized as of this writing but I'd be pleased to race this against most any inline in the country.





In short and in my opinion, the perceived advantage of inlines is nothing more than a perception. I don't care what one wishes to shoot while hunting. I'm quite comfortable in not hunting with Klingon guns myself and give up no advantage in doing so. Anyone thinking otherwise is either pushing an agenda or fulla chitt, or both.

It's only 50 yards, but it's offhand with a flinter. Top hole on the left target was a fouler and I'd be pleased to race an inline on those terms as well.



[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/Guns/Black%20Powder/Turpin-1.jpg[/img]


[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/Guns/Black%20Powder/rifles0031.jpg[/img]

Slug guns are commonly thought of as shotguns with rifled barrels.

Perhaps by the X-box generation, not by educated shooters.

I do enjoy the edjumacation I get here. Another aspect of shooting I knew nothing about. Thanks!

We got off topic in the first reply. You win though. I'd rather go back to Afghanistan than continue listening to you poo poo something different.

We have been on topic from the start. The OP inquired about BP or smokeless ML guns and we have been debating that point. As stated previously, I could not give a flip what one chooses to hunt or shoot with. It does grate a bit when recommendations are based on myth or other allegations that are unsupportable.

Would rather none of our folks were in the sand box, but if you wind up heading back, watch your 6.

I would point out that these rifles do not have to be big heavy barreled pieces . In fact the vast majority were not . It all depends on the type of rifle and match one was shooting in .

While I would agree that the modern rifles do not hold a candle in accuracy , if there is an advantage or not , depends on the rules .
If those rules hold to a common ground then , no , no advantage . But the minute we start accepting . High value telescopic scopes , , smokeless powders , closed ignitions , jacketed bullets , core locks ,���..
Well frankly that�s where we will have to part company .
its simply IMO ,undisputable . If one is looking for accuracy . Be it for hunting or long range , its not going to be found in the modern movement.
But anyway , here are some more photos to add to what dan was saying ..













[img]http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y242/captchee/match%20guns/stutzer2.png[/img]


[img]http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y242/captchee/match%20guns/DSC00123.jpg[/img]



also if you think that running a patch down the bore of your smokeless gun is cleaning ,, well then ya its faster then Black powder .
but thats not cleaning and you know it .
again BP rifles ARE NOT in the realm of Ronco's set it and forget it . if thats what you want then ha go with a smokeless , muzzle loading rifle or buy a conversion . either way its the same thing . you doing nothing but adapting a breech loading rifle design to muzzle loading .

Thank you.

Finally, something other than blah blah. I agree that the high horse righteous stuff gets real old.

For me, I hate stick bows because they hate me. Why? I just cannot shoot them. In my hands, I become an unethical hunter unless my shots are under 5 yards. I have a lot of respect for those of you who can and I have had the opportunity to shoot alongside a few of you. Good for all of you, you can hunt in my woods any day.



That's what is is all about for you. Have fun and enjoy it. The "muzzleloader" season has evolved in many areas and I welcome it. Take your "legal" weapon of choice out and enjoy it, whatever it is.

Cap, I have one of those Hilliard guns. .50 cal, 20" twist w/ tools