Looks like Federal has a new 50 Cal muzzy bullet on the way.
BOR Lock bullet

Looks interesting, we'll see how they perform... I might give them a try.

Betting most here can't define "obturating."

To expand and seal the bore. There.

It's just like obturating a four lane road in your truck only it's a lot smaller and there's no divide or lines to follow and it's all straightaways.

The obturating ramps are what the bullets drives onto before being driven down the superhighway barrel.

I get it.

Ah, you underestimate the denizens of the 'Fire!

I can even use it in a sentence.

Ingwe ate 4 pounds of dry beef jerky, then drank half a dozen beers.

The jerky completely obturated in his bore, taking more than a week to pass.

John

Another guess ...

Obturating is when a bullet is crooked and/or is oblong.

It's the "ob" in obturate and oblong.

If it was oturate (no "b") the bullet would be round.

Judging by his facial expression in photos, his bore has been obturated for quite some time.

This is a family forum, but I did know a guy from West Virginia who went blind from too much obturating.

After taking a peek at that bullet it looks like it will waaaaay over obturate.

I'll pass.

Seriously though, I'd wager they'll be hideously expensive but it won't matter to me since they'll also be illegal here.

Not illegal, its a conical bullet. If it were the shed the case around it like a sabot, then it would not be legal.

Price is $24.99 per 15. Cheap than a powerbelt aerolite.

I didn't say it was illegal, I said it will be. Got to give it at least a few weeks.

If you doubt that CP&W will make it illegal I have $100 that says they will.

Looks kinda similar. What the heck's muzzleloading coming to?

Those are definitely illegal in CO. During the special muzzleloader season that is.

uh comparing an explosive bullet ( if thats what it is?) to a copper bullet encased in plastic, a case that does not separate from the bullet, is way the hell off base IMO.

No, I think he's dead serious........

But ...

Are they worth the risk ... and the price?

Are they like Black Talons?

Is this a good beginner bullet?

If I was a beginner, that bullet is what I'd be slingin'. The BC alone has knockdown power. When you add in the obturation ramps, it's a win-win.

Not me. I stopped when I started needing glasses.

I dunno, I think it's missin' the CE pellet in the "Deep Cavity" to be a real winner! I really don't blame Federal for wanting to get in on the bazillion dollars the muzzleloading crowd is willing to spend on "The Next Greatest Thing" to try to make their front stuffers more like cartridge guns.

bb, have you had a chance to try them?

The most expensive PB Aerolite at Midway is $21.99 Per 15.

you ever see midways shipping price? They wanted $15 to ship one package of 295gr powerbelts the last time i went to order.

Plus its a powerbelt that flies apart. Quality some times costs a bit more, especially a copper bullet.

Yup, that PB sure flew apart on the bull I shot last year. Of course, I'm not sure how bad it was 'cause the bullet exited and I never found it. How many elk have you shot with 'em? I've killed 8 or 9.

It's a wonder anybody ever killed anything before there were solid copper muzzleloader bullets.

And as far as shipping costs, what were the shipping costs for the Federal BOR bullets you found available on-line?

Graf's has Aerolites for $20.89, by the way.

use an aerolite, mine exploded on a deer. Huge hole and lots of blood. I would not recommend them for elk though.

Federals are not out until june or july from what ive seen. I havent ordered or looked them up yet.

Use an aerolite on elk though, report back. My 250 made it through the deer, took out the lungs but did not even make it to the opposite side of the ribs. They are made to open quickly and leave a big entrance hole for fast blood. But not made to penetrate.

Report back? You did read the post above? How about you use 'em on elk and report back.

I've killed 8 or 9 elk with aerolites, haven't had one get away yet. Including last year's bull below, complete pass-through. Oops, forgot, the guy who's never shot an elk with'em says that's impossible.

Saddlesore had similar results with PBs, you must remember those discussions.



Exit wound, on the point of the shoulder:

no, you use the AEROTIP, not Aerolite.

Finger nail size of bullet I pulled out of a small buck, this was the only piece to make it into the opposite side rib cage.

LOL, at what point in the death of the deer did the bullet fail?

And as far as the bullets I use, yes I use the Aerotip and it works fine. Your post above slammed Powerbelts, not Aerolites.

If you use a light bullet, and push it too fast, you get what you deserve (In your case a dead deer). I've killed several Mulies with 348 Aerotips, and not one stopped the bullet.

It ain't rocket science, and open-sighted muzzleloaders don't need to shoot light bullets at high velocities.

This is what I am responding to. The you threw in that you shoot elk with aerolites and then posted pictures. You sure you know what bullet you're shooting?

Exactly, you pay premium prices for a "limits" bullet

It ain't rocket science you know.

No limits for me, chief. Unless you think not using light bullets in a muzzleloader for big game like elk is a limitation.

I'd call it common sense.

250gr thor for me on everything I hunt. This year... 280gr round ball.

Soft lead just isn't cool, especially with that huge hollow point.

How have the 250 Thor's performed for you on elk?

How is the expansion with those?

Soft lead may not be as "cool"as a copper bullet, but it's been working for hundreds of years. And I do think it's funny that someone who thinks a 350 grain soft lead bullet is not "cool," touts a smaller lead round ball.

Personally I have used the 385gr hornady great plains bullet and i thought they sucked butt, and it was a small doe I used it on lol. It only made it through one shoulder and expanded to the size of a silver dollar.

My smaller lead ball doesn't fragment like a 348gr powerbelt. Plus its a whooooole lot cheaper. And fun.

we're at getting close to 400 dead deer and bear with those limited 295pb bullets. 90-100gns of about anything they kill great.

What is funny Smoke is that bigblock used to be a more ardent supporter of powerbelts than you! And yes I have killed several elk with aerotips but have moved on to cheaper, tougher bullets. But I would not hesitate to use an aerotip if I had too and be confident with them. The problem with them is that people wanted to use 150 gr of powder. And that don't work with pure lead.

I still do use them and support them, Its just hard to recommend them for elk when a thor is a much better bullet for the job.

Even 100 grains is a problem for most powerbelts.

I expect that we'll see a bunch more variations on the copper bullet theme as a result of the EPA lead smelter shutdowns and paranoia about lead bullets.
Bring it on, I'll test a few before I make up my mind.

Tx, I wouldn't say I'm an ardent supporter of Powerbelts, but I do know they work. I just get tired of reading comments about the relative merits of Powerbelts and Thors for elk from a guy who's never shot an elk with either bullet.

lol my forum used to be called The powerbelt forum, i educated many on how to properly use powerbelts to prevent failure.

Well, if you don't shoot 'em at anything, it's a good bet you'll avoid failure.

oh ive shot plenty of game with them, but as time goes on and new & better things come along, its hard to look back and go, man those were some awesome bullets! I can shoot what ever charge i want with the thor ( until accuracy sucks) shoot any game this state offers, get higher velocity than a powerbelt, get the beautiful flower of death shape when that bullet expands, and all for the same price as the limited bullet.

This year though, my 58cal hawken is getting the play time.

Can and do are two different things.

100gr bh209 is pretty standard for me with the 250 thor. Only 8" of drop at 200 yards and thats all I need.

Well, at 56 and having hunted Colorado since my mid 20s, I have killed a number of elk with a muzzleloader. At least 3 with powerbelts, but the last 4 with Hornady FPBs. I did lose one with a powerbelt, and I will never know why because I didn't recover him. I can tell you that I am more confident with a 350 gr FPB bullet that is a lead alloy than I was with the 348 aerotip. One of those FPB kills was at a steep uphill angle and busted through the upper leg bone (humerus) at the elbow and took out the heart. That is probably the heaviest bone in the body. There is no way that would have happened with a powerbelt. The FPB flies accurately, is a tougher constructed bullet that mushrooms well, and is cheaper than powerbelts. What is not to love?

However, if it ain't broke, don't fix it, so your set up is a great one for you.

Ya know, if someone would just make a bullet that's perfect with all guns this discussion would be over.....LOL


Until then, I'll give these new bullets a chance.

Here is the response I got from The Colorado DOW:

David-


Since this is a new muzzleloading technology, our Regulations and Law Enforcement personnel are looking into the legalities of the bullet for Colorado muzzleloading seasons. We will be in touch with you regarding our decision on this new bullet.


Thanks,
Ryan

I'd be willing to bet that they outlaw it for the ML season. Since it's not a bore-sized conical without the sleeve.

like a powerbelt or a harvester sabertooth?

True, but they don't have sleeves for the bearing surface.

How much do you want to bet that they ban it?

who knows. The fools were stupid enough to tell us before the bullet length could not exceed twice the bores diameter.

Can someone please answer a question for me? Why in gods name even bring the projectile up in conversation with the DNR, I mean let em figure this stuff out right. They get paid to do this kind of work just for us tax payers to do their job for them and let them know the latest and greatest things?

Empowering them simply is not helping us. I'm going off the rules and regulations and nothing in there says anything about this type of bullet period.

my thoughts as well, always gotta be someone that goes to tattle and ask the wrong person lol.

I don't see it that way at all. If you read Tx's post, it says CP&W was already looking at these, and you can bet there are lots of ML hunters in CO who don't even like the idea of in-lines that already brought it to their attention, hoping these would be banned.

I will be interested to hear the answer. I only hunt with a muzzleloader in CO. I might give 'em a try but I would not waste my time and money on 'em until I was sure they'd be legal.

It'd be a waste to buy 'em, shoot 'em, work up good loads and such, and then hear they'd been banned.

considering they are not even out on the market yet, i dont think anyone will be spending money on them for a few months.

True. But even so, some people are quoting prices for them on the internet.

Hydra: You could make a case (and they might) that this is a modified sabot) You don't really think that they aren't on top of new products/bullets?? Sorry, but I am not going to take a questionable bullet/powder/gun into the field without knowing if they are legal. Like Smoke, I am guessing they will not allow them due to the plastic sleeve being the rifling contact point. I am unclear if the bullet obturates and engages the rifling or if just the plastic. If just the plastic, it will probably not be allowed. If the bullet itself also enlarges and egages the rifling, them maybe. That said, you would think that the manufacturers of the bullet would be doing some research and visit with states to try and grease the skids for legality.

That said, if legal, I will give them a looksee and consider using them. Also, I don't want to invest considerable time and money into trying them and get them sighted in just to have them declared not legal just before I go. I only hunt with conicals, so before I go with something new like this, I want to know if it will be legal.

Bigb: Tattling?? Every time I think you might have grown up some.........

Their website makes it sound like the copper part of the bullet doesn't engage the rifling. And even if some states outlaw it, they'll still have plenty of others to market it in so I doubt they're worried about that. Just look at how many different sabots are on the market.

I thought I might try these, but at 270 grains, I'm not so sure. I kind of like heavier bullets.

No what I'm saying is let them figure it out. I understand that you and a few people including myself want to know, but I'm not going to email the DNR if I see something. Yea, working up a load is a PITA but it still is fun regardless and you'll most likely use it in another state anyway.

I'm sure their inbox is bursting at the seams of all the emails regarding a bullet that isn't even out yet. Seriously, it's not like they get emailed on the newest things out there before they put the idea into a machine. Seeing that we are just catching on I'm sure we are some of the first to know.

I know the reason behind the ML regulation here in CO and I'm sorry IMHO a sabot isn't going to kill the hunt, in fact it will help place humane
shots and it's legal for use in the general season anyway. I like the loose powder and iron sites, but sabots come on!

What are the actual hard book regulations? Where does this idea of "bullet engage rifling" provision come in?



Edit<-- I can only find this:

MUZZLELOA DING RIFLES & SMOOTH BORE MUSKETS

a. Only legal muzzleloaders allowed in muzzleloading
seasons.
b. In-line muzzleloaders are legal.
c. Must be a single barrel that fires a single round ball or
conical projectile.
d. To hunt deer, pronghorn or bear, they must be minimum
of .40 caliber.
e. To hunt elk or moose, they must be minimum of .50
caliber.
f. From .40 caliber to .50 caliber, bullets must weigh a minimum 170 grains.
g. If greater than .50 caliber, bullets must weigh a minimum 210 grains.
h. Shotshell primers are legal.
i. Pelletized powder systems prohibited in muzzleloading seasons.
j. Cannot be loaded from the breech in muzzleloading seasons.
k. Only open or iron sights allowed in muzzleloading seasons. Fiber optics
and fluorescent paint incorporated into or on open or iron sights are
legal. Scopes or any sighting device using artificial light, batteries and
electronic gear are prohibited during muzzleloading seasons.
l. Sabots are prohibited in muzzleloading seasons. Cloth patches are not
sabots.
m. Smokeless powder prohibited in muzzleloading seasons. Black powder
and black-powder substitutes are legal.
n. Electronic or battery-powered devices cannot be incorporated into or
attached to muzzleloader during muzzleloading seasons.

With a sabot, the bullet doesn't engage the rifling; the plastic sabot does. So this bullet might be considered to be more like a sabot than a conical bullet and banned on that basis.



You could say the same about a lot of things, like scopes and smokeless powder. They make accurate shot placement easier, which also extends the effective range and that's what they're trying to limit. They've chosen to draw a line, and it has to be somewhere.

patched ball doesnt engage rifling.

Thanks Sherlock. The regs specifically address patches as not being considered a sabot. As they should.

if its the bullet that has to engage the rifling, then a patch ball doesnt meet their standards.

Sabots are illegal. A patch is not a sabot. It ain't rocket science.

just like a government agency to not know a thing about what they are trying to restrict. Yet they allow an 84 grain bullet to kill moose and elk! Go figure.

They know exactly what they're trying to restrict--the effective range of the rifles. A patched round ball is one of the shortest range options you have with a muzzleloader so it makes perfect sense to allow them but not sabots.

no way, Im gearing up for 200 yards with my 58 this year. I have a ramp style sight on it now days. 140 yards a handful of years ago on a cow elk with simple 54cal patched ball did wonders on her. The 58 with a heavy dose of 110-120gr 2f goex is even better.

Even with my open sight inlines and thors, 200 yards isn't a problem. So wheres the restriction?

Tie a hand behind your back or tell you flat out, you can only shoot a max distance of 50 yards?

No shot is a problem on the internet.

I've already done it many times as it is. I believe right now 148 is the farthest with an inline, but that was a small doe, I couldnt make her out that well at 160 with the big plastic sights that I had one the rifle at that time.

Well, now that this is a thread about your shooting prowess, how do you correct for wind drift on a 200 yard shot with a round ball and open sights?

Bingo!
I'm not sure what all the fuss is about. There are plenty of legal choices available. Pick one. Work up a load. Hunt.

That's the plan!

200 yards is 200 yards with an open sight regardless. The use of a sabot over a round ball doesn't matter, it's the sights that really limit you. Shouldn't matter what engages or doesn't engage, so to me a patch is still a sabot. They both seal the gases, create a barrier, and fall away from the projectile after leaving the bore.

If you think there's no difference in a sabot and a round ball at 200 yards, find a good aerodynamic sabot, and run the numbers on drop and wind drift at 200 yards.

Then there's this, that you quoted from the CO regs yesterday:

thats part of the game, LEARN what you are doing and know your limits.

OK then, real quick, what is the wind drift at 200 with a 58 RB in a 5 Mph crosswind?

I'm betting you don't know.

roughly 14- 16"

36" drop as well from being dead on at 100 and then backing out to 200. Its all skill, practicing and knowing your equipment.

Took you a while to come up with that (ain't the internet great). But I think it's closer to 17 inches. Of course, that's for a .58 RB pushed by 120 grains FF black powder, going 1630 fps (from Lyman) at 5,000 feet in elevation, but it's only a guess.

Holding off a foot and a half with iron sights on a big game animal is something I'm not interested in. Actually, taking a 200 yard shot on a big game animal with a muzzleloader is not something I'm interested in.

But if I was, it sure as he** wouldn't be with a patched round ball and that kind of wind drift and iron sights. There are a lot better bullets available for that.

I cant sit at the computer all day like some.

1620 with 110 grains olde eynsford at 6000 ft. I actually shoot at 7300 but hunt higher in the 9000 range during hunting season.

Every man has to know his limitations.

I most likely will only have a doe tag this year, possibly a bear as well, so reasonable 150 yard shots will be normal for this rifle.

That's the great thing about the internet, there are none.

yeah you've shown that

Now go kill an elk with your limited bullet.

That's funny. I believe I will kill an elk, like I do most years. When it comes down to it, the bullet I choose will be one of the least important factors weighing on success.

You do what you do best, and keep talking about the relative merits of different bullets like Thors and Powerbelts, none of which you've shot at an elk, much less killed one with.

I guess that don't matter though, anything's possible on the internet. Where talk is just as good as results, for some.

try the 338gr platinum this year, Ive had a members friend shoot an elk 3 times with one and he said they did not expand at all. I think he used 90gr or 100gr T7.

You sure are quick on the reply button. For someone who can't sit on the computer all day.

I guess that just applies when you've got some cipherin' to do, LOL.

time to relax now. A long day of setting up poly pipe, sprinklers and tree trimming.

Yep, cipherin' is hard work, it'll plum wear you out.

LOL, That was the regulation, not my interpretation. If you look carefully I said "so to me" ya know, my opinion? I know there's a technical difference but I was just stating that IMHO they complete the same task during their operation, that's all.

I'm not going to take a 200 yard "chance" unless it's one giant beast that I can't stalk, I'm sure of my load, and very sure of my aim. If it can't be humanely harvested what's the point ya know? Besides, I didn't even put in for a ML hunt this year, I put in under Centerfire because of the Youth hunts for my boys. I just plan on using my ML's complete with sabot and scope unless I by my son a new rifle then I'll break out my big gun.

Did CO abandon that silly limit on bullet length?

Yup.

Glad they did. Now I don't have to cut the tip off my FPBs!

I've asked for Colorado's actual regulations but haven't heard back yet. They told me that "Law Enforcement department have guidelines defining sabots and different variations thereof". So what I asked for is all of their information and regulations concerning projectiles during Muzzleloader hunts. If I don't hear anything I will complete a freedom of information act request form but I hope I don't have to do that.

They'll either make a ruling on it or they won't. If they don't, then I'd assume the new bullets are legal.

Just curious has anybody heard or has Colorado made a ruling on the use of this new Federal Muzzy bullet?

Nope, and I have asked twice.I just emailed Feeral to see if they have heard anything

I just followed the link to the Federal site and took a close look at this thing. Logically, if the polymer base cup takes the rifling, it's acting like a sabot, and that's how the F&G people will see it.

Actually, I suspect they're going to call it a sabot regardless, just in case.

It looks interesting, if a little complicated. They mention its high B.C. Anybody see an actual figure?

Believe it or not, just got my answer today,and they say it is legal! Here is the email from the DOW:

the verdict is in, The Regulation Review Managers and the Leadership Team have reviewed the new Federal B.O.R. Lock MZ system bullet and have determined that bullet would be a legal bullet to use in a muzzleloader during the Colorado muzzleloading seasons.
In regards to the See All Sight for a muzzleloader it has been determined that this is not an open or iron sight and therefore it would be illegal to use during the muzzleloading season in Colorado but could be used on a muzzleloader during "any rifle or other associated methods" season for big game

Well the See All was a question I asked and never got a reply...Nice folks over there! :P

I'm all in, can't wait to get some in the mail.