I'm kind of new muzzle loaders and was wondering the difference between 2f and 3f. I know that 2f is courser but I've read of some guys using 3f in the barrel and in the pan. What advantages does 3f have over 2f in the barrel? Is there any advantage to using 3f in the pan over 4f, other than having one powder for everything. I'm currently shooting 75 gr. of 2f, can I safely shoot the same amount of 3f? Will 3f work with PA conicals?

Sorry for all the questions but I figured I'd get'em all out there at once.

What rifle are you shooting this in?

Black powder burns at the same rate, but the finer granulation of 3F allows it to get consumed faster than more coarse 2f. You can use 3F in the pan, although I've never tried it personally. A little bit of 4f lasts forever. I've heard that 2F is marginally useful in the pan, but again, I've never tried it. Don't ever use 4F in your barrel, only for the pan.

3F is usually better in shorter barrels, as it will be consumed faster, where 2F is usually used in longer barrels. Any rifle can shoot either powder, it's just a matter of which will be best, and you really don't know until you've shot it to find out. Usually, it's not effective to shoot bigger charges of 2F in short barrels.

Whereabouts in PA are you? Cabela's area here.

FWIW I switched to 3f from 2f and was able to reduce my load by about 10g and get, what appeared to be the same velocity... not measured, but based upon trajectory. I also figured it'd have better ignition due to greater surface area (finer grains).

Really, the difference is probably academic.

In one of the Lyman blackpowder books, they compared using 2f and 3 f with pressure data. They found that 3f gave higher velocity and higher pressure for the same weight charge. You could use less 3f and get the same velocity.

The three main benefits to using 3F are faster ignition, less fouling, and more power than 2F.

If you reduce the load 10% you lose the added power part, but gain cheaper to shoot.

I'm shooting a Traditions Busckskinner with a 1:66" 21" barrel. I've noticed a few unburnt granules when cleaning. I'll give 3f a try and see if I notice a difference. It's too late to change before this years season, though I am planning on heading to the range tomorrow. What about 3f with PA connicals, would that be safe to try?

I'm in central PA, about an hour west of State College. I've been through your neck of the woods a few times.

you'll always get that. Half of the fouling you get in BP is unburnt powder.

Yeah, black powder is a very inefficient powder. If you reduced your load so you had no unburned powder blowing out the muzzle you'd have to hunt squirrels

I use 100 grains of 3 f,which is about the same as 110 grains of 2f .swiching to 75 grains of 3f should be no problem for you,and you may not even see much of an impact shift.

I had the same question when I bought new powder at Dixon's Muzzleloading Shop (Berks County PA) about a week ago. They said that they have no problem with 3F. However, they recommend 2F for typical hunting use.

The folks at Dixon's believe that the coarser-grained 2F allows for more space (i.e. oxygen) between grains, which may provide for more reliable ignition.

I'm just passing along what I was told....

I like to use 110 grains of 2F in my Hawken 54 for shooting round balls. I only use Goex

I can't agree with that. 3F in a flintlock will shoot better than 2F.

Losing 10% power is not true. Almost everyone loads by volume, smaller granules means more weight/powder than the larger granules in a specified volume. So 90gr by volume of 3F is heavier than 90gr of 2F by volume, 3F packs more efficiently leaving less air, there is actually more 3F powder than 2F in a set volume. Combined with 3F being faster burning, which is why the ignition is faster, you need to reduce a 3F load by about 10% to retain similar energy to the 2F load.

In my GPH flint and 338 powerbelts, with 90gr 2F I average 1445fps, with 90gr 3F I average 1530fps, with 80gr 3F I average 1406fps. So 80gr 3F equals 90gr 2f in energy.

And related to the above posts about burn efficiency, powder does not burn at one set rate, it is not linear, it burns exponentially faster with increasing pressure. This has an effect on field performance. I found a 245 powerbelt with 100gr 3F yields 1500 fps while a 295 powerbelt yields 1596fps, one would expect a substantially lighter bullet to travel faster than a heavier bullet with the same charge. But with less pressure of the lighter bullet that large amount of powder just isn't burned efficiently. Increase bullet weight or loading pressure and you'll ignite more powder.

You'll find if you weigh the loads of 3F and 2F which eliminates the packing tighter in a volume measure. The 3F will be about 10% faster in fps.

I don't have access to a chronograph, but would 75gr. of either with a .490 PRB result in enough velocity to cleanly kill a deer at 50 yds. (assuming I do my part)? I don't plan on shooting much beyond 50 as my accuracy greatly diminishes beyond that.

Yes, it will kill a deer. Is that your most accurate load?

75gr is plenty. Take high percentage shots at less than 100 yards and you'll be fine.

One of the reasons I asked about barrel length is that it will aid in consuming powder to have a longer barrel. I shoot 120gr 2F in my long rifle, but that has a 46" barrel. That charge would not get fully consumed in a Hawken, I don't think. I guess it might, but I would not want to bet on it.

generally speaking, 3-f burns a little faster and cleaner than 2-f.

Which is better? It depends on the gun. Just like a center-fire rifle may shoot a better group with the correct load of one type of powder, muzzle loading guns can be the same. It pays in accuracy to do some experimenting with powder granulation and charge weight. Especially in the medium size bores. Small bore rifles (45 cal and smaller) typically shoot best with 3-f. The large bores (62 cal and larger) usually do best with 2-f though there are exceptions. The middle caliber rifles (50 cal up to 60) is where it really pays to try both granulation of powder.

As far as what you prime a flintlock with, any granulation from 4-f to 2-f will work. Several of my shooting buddies use 3-f for prime and main charge in every flintlock they shoot, rifle or smooth bore.

I have tried it all in my 62/20 gauge trade gun. On the bench rest I can discern a slight difference. Off-hand or in the field I can not. The fastest ignition I get is with 2-f for the main charge and 4-f in the pan. I use that load when I shoot for score. In the field I have used 2-f in the pan and it works just fine. In fact, it works better on very damp and humid days. The 2-f just doesn't seem to attract moisture as quickly as the 4-f will.

I think my friends who use 3-f for everything are not giving up much in field shooting but I usually beat them in matches. The faster ignition time seems to help my target shooting.

My four 50 caliber percussion rifles are the guns that show the largest variation in groups depending on which granulation of powder I load them with. One shoots much better with 2-f, two shoot best with 3-f and one shoots the same with either. So it pays to try both and let the gun show which it will shoot best.

Soldiers shooting smoothbore muskets used to use powder from the paper cartridge to prime their pans, I believe, but they usually had great big eroded touchholes. A pound of 4F for priming will last most folks forever.

Heck yeah....

I live near Dixon's shop in PA, and I get their little 1/4lb plastic priming bottles of 4F that they make up from the 1lb cans. They last FOREVER.

A lot of folks use way too much prime, too. I'll mess with my rifles to see how small a priming charge I can get away with reliably. They go much faster with minimal prime than by filling up the pan, or at least to me it seems so.

Just got back from the range and my first try using 3f wasn't so successful. I had shot a couple shots with 2f and figured I'd clean the gun before I tried the 3f. I used the same cleaning procedure I always use at the range before. I "might" have forgot to run a dry patch down the barrel. Well I couldn't get that 3f to go off to save my life. I ended up pulling the ball and getting most as much of the powder out as I could, it looked damp. I loaded up again (with 2f) and had a little trouble getting it to off, but it did on the 2nd attempt. I am looking forward to experimenting more with it though.

I hear ya about 4f lasting forever. I've had my muzzleloader for 14 years, this year I've shot it the most. The previous 13 years I'd get so frustrated I didn't even want to look at it. Heck I never even picked it up for about 4 of those years. I had problems with flints but I seem to have that figured out now. Anyways, I still have about 3/4 of a lb. left.

You got it wet. You should have tried the 3F after you got the 2F to fire.

No way the 3F was at fault. Always run a dry patch after any sort of wet patch. Sometimes I run two dry patches using both sides of the patch.

Yeah I know I got it wet. I wasn't blaming the 3f, it was my fault. I usually run two dry patches also. I wanted to shoot some more but had to get going due too family obligations.

Is the flash pan going off and not the main charge, or nothing is going off?
In each case what powder did you have in the flash pan?

Is the flash pan going off and not the main charge, or nothing is going off?
In each case what powder did you have in the flash pan? [/quote]

I had a main charge of 3f and 4f in the pan. I couldn't get the 3f to go off because I forgot to run a dry patch after cleaning.

The Fg rating is a more modern system to define the grain size of BP .The difference between Cannon , Fg ,Ffg , FFFG, FFFFg all the way up to 10Fg is the grind. it�s the same powder just a finer grind . The smaller the grind , the more complete the burn of the powder grain . Thus the higher the pressure , which in turn increases velocity to a point .
The FG scale came about really more as a way to define and regulate charges for BP cartridge , then it was for anything else . It provided a more consistent way to define an average size of grain .Prior to the scale , you had musket grade and cannon grade/ corn grade powder with larger and smaller grains spread throughout of 1F / musket powder as well as also small grains .

BP is measured in volume based on the reasoning that it is produced in Cake which is a given volume . Its is then ground and sifted through screens to produce average size , NOT pressed to a given size or flake as with modern powders .
There is no more , nor no less powder by volume then what the original grind started with . Again , by grinding that original cake smaller , a larger surface area is produced . Thus increasing the chance of ignition and creating a more complete burn . IE, why you get higher pressure from 3F vs. 2F even though it�s the same powder .
Yes you actually use alittle less . Also what you see coming from the muzzle , isn�t always un burnt powder . For the most part its un burned carbon cinders

Myself
I use 3F in everything from small rifles to large bore 60-79 cal � IF � that�s what produces the best accuracy .
Myself I prefer 3F when I can . Not only does it take less but I also find it cleaner .
The reduction of 10% between 2and3F isn�t exact. It really depends on the powder . All the barrel cares is that it has X pressure . As such if you fine tune your 3F load so that it produces the same pressure as your 2 F load , its will shoot very near the same . Might not be exactly the same do to the slightly quicker pressure spike . But again that happens so quick most folks wouldn�t even know
With that being said, Myself I prefer 3F . However I do have a couple rifles which prefer 2F . I just never have been able to produce a 3F load in those rifles which will produce the same target accuracy of the 2F . Close , just not good enough .

The theory that your being told by Dixons is one of 2F gaining more surface area to initial ignition .,
Cant say I agree . Now in wet conditions , 2 F doesn�t get wet as fast as 3 F or 4F . But when dry I don�t find it lights any easier then 3F .

Some folks also say that 3F is just as fast as 4 F in the pan .. Half of one , dozen of another . I use 4F in the pan and 3F when I find myself without 4F

My nipple is never in my rifle when cleaning. I insert it when I'm done cleaning. Don't soak your patches and it may take both sides of two patches to dry the bore. Then use pipe cleaners and q-tips for the nipple hole and cleanout screw areas.

When at the range, I only swab the bore. Generally always use 71% rubbing alcohol in a small spray bottle, then a dry patch. The alcohol dries fast. I prefer 71% over 90%, which dries too fast for my liking.