Heading to Indiana this fall, and with all the new inlines on the market it's hard to make a decision.
I'd be happy with a 200 yard range in a reliable gun for between 350 and 450$ 209x50
Any suggestions?

What style/action do you desire, break or bolt-action? Store sales on MLs heat-up about September 1st.

If it were me, as far as "action" types I'd go with a break action. There are several good ones to choose from and an "action" on a muzzleloader adds nothing but unnecessary weight and length. Drop the extra 5-6 inches and you have a much better handling rifle with the same length barrel.

TC Encore is nice. Whatever you buy, make sure it has an extractor for the primer. I've got a CVA Kodiak that the primer can get stuck. It's a lever action and poens the breech. I have to keep a little screw driver with me to get it out if I need to reload. My Encore has an extractor and pulls the primer out when you crack it open. The other good thing about the Encore is that you get other barrels for it. In addition to the muzzle loader, I've got a 12ga. slug barrel and a 30.06.

CVA Accura V2 - Accura Mountain Rifle or the CVA Optima are all great rifles.

CVA Optima with the Nitride barrel is a good bang for the buck.

This is a good time of the year to peruse the used rack at the gun shops, lots of nice muzzleloaders at good prices. Stay away from anything that shows neglect or corrosion, but most shops won't take them in if they're roached out. Ones that would make my short list would be the Knights Disc Extremes and T/Cs Encore, Triumph, Omega & Impact. If you're thinking of using Blackhorn powder, the T/C Omega is a good choice. No secret I'm not a fan of anything that gets here on a boat, but the shops I frequent usually have several for cheap.

Best bang for the buck probably won't be made in the US. That doesn't mean I don't use the US guns, but i'm not looking for the best bang for the buck.

I have a SS Rem 700 ML that I bought for a SML donor I'll let go of if interested. PM me.

In my case, it (American-made) was the best bang for the buck.

Around December 12th last year, Knightriflesdotcom was offering a Christmas Special on a new break-action Knight Vision for $199.

I wish now that I had purchased two instead of one at that price.

I got a Knight LRH new from them for $299 the first time they went out of business. Great gun.

That said, those deals are few and far between. CVA probably has the best bang for your buck currently.

I have a CVA Optima Elite, and absolutely love it.

Definitely interested in break actions.
I have a line on an Omega I'm looking into. Otherwise may just go with an Encore so I can make it a pistol and get more use out of it.

Does the weight of the rifle matter? If so, Encores are on the heavy side.

While these modern, in-line muzzle-loaders offer a man longer range and very good accuracy, there is just "something" about going into the woods with a traditional muzzle-loader.

I'd like to suggest you also consider a modern-made, percussion cap, short-barrel rifle like my deer hunting rifle. For just a $100, I bought a used, but in "very good" condition, an older CVA cap-lock in .50 caliber with a 24-inch barrel which weighs only 6.5 pounds which makes it very "handy" in the dense woods due to it's light weight and relatively short barrel.

This is "THE" perfect kind of "deer rifle" for me (and a great many others) which is not only dependable, but is also very accurate within it's own more "limited" range (more "limited" than an in-line), but which is capable of putting three .490" Hornady swagged lead rifle balls, one on top of the other, at 50 yards with iron sights... even with my older eyes.

Since I have a self-limited range of 80 yards when shooting at live game, this combination works out just fine for me... and 'most likely would for you as well.

My cap-lock has never mis-fired and with it's double-set trigger, it seems to "fire" the moment I slightly & gently touch the "set" trigger and that 177 grain lead rifle ball shoots THROUGH a deer out to at least 80 yards... and it's still a "traditional" muzzle-loader.

Since some States have a special deer season limited to "Traditional muzzle-loading, black powder rifles ONLY", having a traditional muzzle-loading rifle may add more "days" to your deer hunting season without any REAL disadvantages to either the accuracy of or the "stopping power" of your rifle.

Yes, it's true that, in some cases, you may need to take your shots at a longer range in order to bring that big buck "down", but I've never found that limiting myself shots of 80 yards or less was a "real" problem when hunting deer since if one sits quietly in the woods while leaning back against a large tree over-looking the junction of a couple of deer trails, I've had deer walk by me at only 30 or 40 feet away... and some of them were at least legal, "shootable" bucks... and, of course, doe deer are even less wary and easily more shootable IF a man will shoot a doe.

Ya see... some of us "old-timers" won't shoot a doe because shooting doe deer was prohibited for most of the years we hunted deer. Yeah... I'm "one-of-those" guys.

Finding those "Granddaddy" sized bucks usually requires going into the very most dense part of the woods and brambles in which, of course, a light, short-barreled rifle is a BIG "plus" and, certainly, the shooting ranges in such woods is almost always VERY short due to the density of the woods and the heavy under-brush. Under those conditions, limiting one's shooting range to 80 yards becomes a "moot point"... as you might imagine !!!

Anyway, with a used, short-barreled cap-lock in "good-to-excellent" condition, selling for $100 to $150 or so (I paid only $100 for mine and it's in "very-good-to-excellent" condition)... you'll not only save $$$, but end up with a rifle that is quick handling,has fine accuracy and is relatively (compared to an in-line) inexpensive with which to do "practice" shooting and just as good as an "in-line" rifle for gathering venison within a reasonable range.

That's just my "2 cents"... and perhaps something for you to consider as well...


Strength & Honor...

Ron T.

I wondered how long it would be before a diatribe like that would emerge...

For me, I could care less about the nostalgia that a traditional muzzleloader offers. I am after the additional days, nothing more. I have hopes that my state, like others, will eventually expand the season to include straight walled smokeless cartridges, like others have. If that were to be the case, I would not even own a muzzleloader. Until that day, my "modern" break over, 209 primer, scoped inline shooting Triple 7 will remain.

I have a sneaking suspicion I am not in the minority in this opinion.

+1.

I fail to understand why a "modern" muzzleloader would outshoot a "traditional" one. My "traditional" configuration will shoot as well as I can hold. Some have leaf sights, some have peeps, and a couple have (horror of horrors) scopes. Though I shoot 777, I do not think it gives me an accuracy advantage. The barrels are all 1:48 and shoot round ball, sabots, and conicals, though I am somewhat limited on projectiles by the twist. Except for the ability to shoot over 100 grains of loose 777 (which I think is completely unecessary for deer), I see no handicap at all. In fact, the set triggers are a decided advantage. Just because it looks like a modern .308, does not mean it shoots like one.

I haven't heard anyone say anything about either one shooting better. Although for conicals and sabots, a fast twist barrel is better.

What I fail to understand is why anybody cares what someone else chooses to shoot.

I have shot three Omegas and they had the tightest bores I have ever encountered. They were bought about the same time and I suspect T/C had a run of tight bores. An 18 year old girl has one of them and even though she is a farm girl and quite strong, she can't load her own rifle. We have tried all major sabot and bullet combinations, except Power Belts, which I do not like. My brother has a T/C Impact and it is much easier to load. You can buy an Impact for less than the price of most Encore barrels.

You and Me are in the vast majority. Those that do not believe it should visit retail muzzleloader stores and see what's on the store shelves/racks. Caplocks are fading every year and it's not hard to understand why.

BTW... I sold five caplocks in December. I'm keeping one for a wall-hanger and every-other blueish/red moon hunting trip. My remaining 1-1/2 lbs of real blackpowder will take me 10 years to use up. I am siding with inlines and Blackhorn 209 these days.

My friend Benchman... and all the other in-line aficionados as well...

While my original post indicated I purposely limit the range of shots I'll take on live game to 80 yards or less using my rifle's iron sights is due-to-the-fact that I know scoped in-lines have the ability to shoot aimed, accurate shots up to twice that far is because both of my sons shoot .50 caliber in-lines loaded with a 245 grain saboted .50 caliber projectile propelled by 3 "disks" of powder , each disk of which is the equivalent of 50 grains of black powder, yielding a powder load of 150 grains which puts the projectile out their muzzle's at OVER 2,000 fps according to my chronograph.

Naturally, this increases the effect range (aka the "point-blank-range") to 160 yards which means their bullet doesn't rise or fall more than 3 inches above or below the line-of-sight out to that distance.

Yes, the "felt" recoil is necessarily "heavy", but both of the boys are strong, well-built men with an ability to absorb such "punishment".

Since their very modern, scoped, in-line muzzle loading rifles are designed and built to "take" such a heavy powder load, they use it and, thus, can far out-range a "traditional" muzzle-loading rifle since, at least in my experience, few if any "traditional" muzzle loaders are designed or even capable of using powder loads of 150 grains which obviously makes a considerable "difference" in both the same weight projectile's muzzle velocity and it's effective range due to considerably less bullet-drop.

I'm not saying everyone should use a "traditional" muzzle loader, but it would be a "joke" not to recognize the great "difference" in powder loads an in-line CAN use which would be a very DOUBTFUL and probably too great a powder load in a "traditional" muzzle loading rifle.

And so, for ONLY me, I prefer the "mystic" as well as the pure pleasure of using a traditional muzzle loading rifle as is my choice and the limitations of which I have accepted as compared to an in-line... just as it is YOUR right and choice to use an in-line if you so prefer.

But make no mistake about it... while both types are "muzzle-loaders", there's a great and very distinct "difference" in the amount of powder each can use and, thus, a very great "difference" in the comparative effective range between those two types of muzzle-loading rifle... and THIS is undoubtedly why some States have seasons for "Traditional muzzle-loading rifles ONLY". Those States and game commissions fully recognize the obvious advantage the in-lines give a hunter... and thus limit such longer, special seasons to "traditional" muzzle loading rifle alone.

Such "limitations" tend to level-the-playing-field as concerns the very obviously "difference" between the actual ballistics of a traditional vs. the in-line's powder loads and the very reason for the sometimes "exemption" of in-lines in some the of State's seasons for the two distinctly-different muzzle-loader's seasons.

This is one of the several reasons I suggested that it may be a good idea to at least think it over and possibly choose the "traditional muzzle-loader" as opposed to the "in-line muzzle loader"... and enjoy an even longer hunting season those "differences" give.

That said... it doesn't really matter to me what a man chooses to use... as long as he is fully aware of what he won't be able to take an advantage of... namely, a longer deer hunting season which are given to the hunters using "traditional" muzzle loading rifles only.

Thus, the reasons behind my original post.


Strength & Honor...

Ron T.

Ron, I'm with you on limiting the effective range of muzzleloaders that are used during special seasons.

But the amount of powder and pressure that an in-line vs. a traditional gun can contain is not the issue. There's nothing special about an in-line barrel that makes it capable of handling greater pressures and more powder. And the ballistics are the same using like projectiles.

The best way to limit the effective range of muzzleloaders allowed for special seasons is not to ban in-lines. It's banning scopes, sabots, and smokeless powder.

Yeah...lets eliminate an entire section of hunters because they dont think the way you do. Excellent idea.

Interesting

I can break 2000fps using a 275gr-300gr bullet with very little effort without a sabot or smokeless powder. 2300fps is even possible but the recoil gets a bit harsh in a lighter rifle.

A similar load was used by no less than 3 people at the last inline match at Friendship, so they shoot quite well too. One of the shooters used a new Knight Mountaineer 45 and a Parker 275gr bullet.

The new Remington Ultimate can pretty much match this performance with either a Thor or the new Federal bullet. The BC would not be as good as the 45s but it would still be very lethal at 200 yards.

The only thing banning scopes does is give the advantage to young hunters with perfect vision. The old guys are screwed.

Is that directed to me, or Ron?

First, I'm talking 50 caliber, which is the most commonly used big game caliber. And the minimum for elk and moose in CO, the state that has the restrictions I posted.

One of my points was that ballistically, there's no difference in an in-line and a caplock that's due to the action. Are you saying you can get those velocities in one but not the other?

In a 50 caliber rifle, you can get the same velocities with a light (250-300 grain) bore-sized bullet that you can with a sabot of the same weight, but a bore-sized 250-300 grain bullet can't hang with a saboted bullet of the same weight ballistically, would you agree?

And none can hang with a Savage shooting smokeless and an aerodynamic saboted bullet, can they?

Not you.

I used a reproduction of an 1863 Zuave .58 civil war era riffle for many years before there were in-lines. The barrel was tight and had to use a .577 miniball. I found a guy that made'em at home and was the best bullet for that gun. I used to shoot 80 grains of FFG. The thing was a deer killing machine. I waited until they perfected the in-lines before I bought one. Now I have 2 with scopes and there great. We have a lot of deer here with a bag limit of 11 with a muzzle loader so no need to limit the hunter. Last fall, I shot an 8 pointer and when I shot, a coyote ran to me and hung out a little too long. The in-line allowed me to quietly reload and kill him. I use 3 50 grain 777 pellets (150 gr.) with a 295 grain Powerbelt. Sometimes hollow pt. and sometimes conical tip. They seem to work the same. If I had the Zuave, I would have never killed the coyote.

The only other problem I've ever had with the traditional musket was misfires in heavy rain.

I should have said it differently, I agree 100% and I'm not in favor of limiting the technology unless there's a good reason. In states with big whitetail populations and liberal bag limits there's no reason for restrictions.

Out here in CO, there are good reasons for restrictions. Hunters in the special early seasons get to hunt before the general firearms season, which is a definite advantage. Probably the biggest advantage though is for elk, because the ML season falls during the rut when centerfires can't be used except on RFW properties. Our elk herd is not above the objectives in general, so it makes sense to limit the range of the firearms given the other advantages of hunting with a rifle in the early season. Our mule deer herd is below objectives in a lot of areas, so we don't need more taken out.

I know some old guys who do just fine with open sights, some of 'em post here.

I see you're from CO. There's nothing to stop you from hunting with a scoped rifle. You just can't do it during the special early ML season.

Or do you believe you're entitled to hunt with a scoped rifle during the elk rut before anyone else in the state can, by virtue of the fact that you're old?

If so, why stop there? Why not get special privileges to use a 4-wheeler in roadless areas because you can't walk as far as you once could? Why not get privileges to use a crossbow because you can't draw a compound like you once could?

The other thing is, if we were to open up that can of worms, for every hunter who truly needed a scope, there'd be 2 or 3 who could do without one but took advantage and got one anyway. Just like all the able-bodied people I see park in handicapped spaces and stroll into wherever it is they're going with nary a limp.

Just for your info. I have a special license to use a scope in ML season, but i've never used it, and won't. I use iron sights on my ML whether I hunt the ML season, or the rifle seasons.

So, get off your soapbox. You're talking to the wrong guy.

Get off my soapbox? You're the one who said old guys are screwed, not me. Get off your own soapbox.

I think you'll find more old guys have poorer vision than when they were younger. Just basic facts.

I made a general statement that most would agree with. You made a ridiculous post directed at me, that had no value, because you don't know me.

Lets drop it.

scopes, plastic stocks, sabots, range finders.... WAUGH! Pretty soon these guys will be wear their camo shorts and sandals to starbucks and go into the field with a latte.

I laid out some logical arguments about why "old guys" aren't screwed by not being able to use scopes during the early ML season in CO. You haven't responded to any of those points, and you're the one who made it personal by talking about what you do/don't do.





I think you'll find that most old guys don't think they need special privileges to be able to hunt.

I think you'll find that most old guys can't get around like they used to either. So what.





Says who? I don't agree with it.


And let me ask you a question. Above, you said you have special permission to use a scope during the ML season, but you've never used it and never will.

So why did you get it, and why don't you use it?

And PS, you're right, I don't know you but you do sound familiar.

I guess I rate as an old guy (will be 74 before ML season opens) and I have two tags for Muzzle loading hunt, Bull and Buck.
It's been a long time sine I tried hunting with black powder and the learning curve is kinda steep, but I was out yesterday with three rifles and things are starting to come together.
I flatly refuse to ask for any advantage because of age, I do what I can with what ability I have left.
I'm competing with age, and I know I'm gonna lose, but damn it I'm not about to let it win easy.

Right on Tracks. I can only hope that I'm still doing it at 74, and better yet, have your same attitude about it.

What are you planning to hunt with?? Got your load dialed in yet?

I agree the herds need to be managed. By using different types of weapons (ML, bow, shotgun, ect.) makes the hunting funner and more challenging while managing the herd.

In PA, where the deer population ain't all that, they're only allowed to take 2 deer all year. Plus I think they can only take 1 buck with a 3 pt. 1 side rule. I think they have a week or 2 of Flint Lock, a week or 2 of in-line and a couple of weeks of rifle with bow in between. Very little people that I know up there even bother with bow because of the bag limit.

Here where we're over run with the brown bastids we can kill
Bow or Crossbow - unlimited doe's & 1 buck Sept 6 thru Jan. 31
ML - 10 doe's & 1 buck 1 1/2 weeks in Oct. & 2 weeks Dec.
Shotgun - 10 doe's & 1 buck 2 weeks in Nov. & 2 days in Jan.
1 bonus buck - weapon of choice.

Obviously, I know nobody who has shot more than 23 in one year. I average 10 to 14 per year. Predators are almost nonexistent. The biggest predator is cars.

First choice is a Knight KRB 50. 80 grains of Pryodex and a 495 gr No excuses bullet.
Second choice is a CVA Wolf, 70 grains Pryo and the same bullet.
Still got to work out the trajectories for various ranges, but it's coming together and I have three months from today to get it right.

Sounds good, good luck!!

I don't know how many posts i've read from old guys saying they can't use open sights anymore, and have turned to a scope. I was one of them, and that's why I have the license. When I got it I realized I couldn't use it, and I don't plan on it either. Even when hunting the ML in rifle season I don't use a scope. Using a ML is using a primitive weapon, and I accept open sights as part of it. I've used open sights all my life, and I see no reason to change because I can't see like I used to. I just get closer now.

I don't think guys are asking for an advantage by asking for a scope. The majority of states have scopes legal in ML season. If Colorado thinks they have a primitive season I can't agree. They should have two seasons. A primitive one during the rut that have to use a sidelock, open sights, and a PRB. Then a modern ML season where everything is legal. Everybody is happy, except the guys who can take 250yd shots won't be doing it during the rut.

Say what you want. Making only open sights legal favors those with good vision. Old or young. I'm going to use open sights no matter what, so i'm not saying this for my benefit.

Obviously a 45cal 300gr bullet is almost certainly going to fly better than a 50cal 300gr bullet. Assuming the ogive shape is similar.

Colorado does not allow sabots or scopes during the ML season so 45cal vs 50cal bullet ballistics dont mean much in this context. In most states a 45cal ML is perfectly legal for deer.

The new Remington Ultimate can pretty much match the Savage approved factory load data. Roughly 2300fps with either a sabot load or a few full bore projectiles. There is not a single Savage approved powder load that will go much past 2300fps with a 250gr or 300gr bullet.

5744 is a dog. BH209 can match it with a 300gr bullet.
SR4759 barely beats BH209
N110 will hit 2300fps no problem but sabots cant handle much more than that with this powder. It spikes pressure very fast.

No other powders are currently approved by Savage but there are a couple that offer a little bit more speed.

Show me one caplock that will produce 2300fps with a 250gr or 300gr bullet and the load data is approved by the manufacturer. Nearly any new modern 50cal 209 inline can hit over 2000fps with a 300gr bullet and 2100fps+ with a 250gr. A few can get another 100fps or so.

IMO it not the action so much as the ignition system and modern subs that allow an inline to shoot fast enough for a noticeable advantage over a caplock. Those speeds would be far more difficult to achieve with percussion cap limitations and only real bp. A good inline can also offer a faster lock time. The advantage may be small but its still there.

Its kind of a moot point though. A good heavy conical shooter has plenty of energy to take down big game at 200 yards with real bp. Doc White has been doing it for many years. Rainbow trajectory...yes...but it still can hit its mark with over 1000fpe at 200 yards.

You mean you have not figured out who he is yet. He has only changed his name here once or twice. He has not posted with his old alias since 12/2013

Took you long enough to figure it out. I left a endless clues. I've only had one other name, and that account got porked. I can't use it anymore.

Funny how the same guy gives me a hard time when I never started any trouble. Yes, smokepole, you sound familiar too.

Saying old guys don't have the same eyesight that did when they were young is hardly a reason to rag on someone, but it's your style.

I was not aware of that. What is it about that rifle that gets it there, as opposed to other in-lines? Most in-lines aren't designed to do that.




I don't know that there is one with approved data. Is that because the rifle can't do it, or the manufacturers aren't pushing them to the limits? Seems to me that if someone wants to see how fast he can shoot, he won't be doing it with a caplock.

What is it about a caplock that wouldn't allow you to achieve the same pressures and velocities as an in-line, with like bullets?

Agreed on the differences in ignition.

What a putz. You're right, saying "old guys don't have the same eyesight that did when they were young" is not a reason to rag on someone.

But that's not what you said. Some things never change. And some whines don't improve with age.





You left "clues?" I hadn't noticed. I wasn't looking.

I hope I never get to the point where I feel the need to sign off in a huff and then come back with a different name.

Clues meaning I wasn't trying to hide who I was. I wanted to come back, and not make any waves t see who would give me a hard time. I was curious if it was my fault last time, or others. Now I know.

As for what I said. I said old guys are screwed when forced to use open sights. I think for the most part that is true. Open sights are hard to use when you start to lose your vision. I used to be able to take shots at 150yds with open sights when I was younger. My range is now at 50yds with open sights. Some guys can't even do that. Most of my hunting friends are close to my age. If they were forced to use open sight in the rifle seasons they hunt they'd give up hunting. Muzzleloading is no different.

If you're past 65 open sights are a problem, and give the advantage to those with 20-20 vision. I made a simple statement that really didn't need to be responded too. I assumed everybody would agree. It certainly didn't call for me being told I was looking for an advantage.
You always have backup on this forum smokepole, so you probably feel what you write is fine. It isn't, and you need to step back, and look at what you say in a post. You love to argue, and try to start one every chance you get. I've read your posts for years, and i've seen it too many times. I guess I shouldn't be surprised that you were the first one to start something with me this time. You were the first one with my last account too.


btw I did try to sign in on my old account many times. It wouldn't let me, and still doesn't. So, I decided to start a new account, and see how it went. All my posts have been honest and truthful. I wasn't trying to pull anything. I just wanted to see if it would be different.

Who or what is my "back-up" pray tell?





This is funny. You want to make it all about you when the fact is, under your new name, I didn't know who you were until yesterday. It's not about you, and it's not about me.

The truth is, if you say stupid things on this forum, you'll get called on it. No matter what name you post under.

Some people can handle that, some can't. Looks like you still can't, under any name.

You also said you're not looking for an advantage, yet you went to the trouble of getting a permit for a scope but then realized you "couldn't use it." Yeah, that makes sense:



That makes almost as much sense as coming back under a different name and saying you weren't trying to hide who you were. I guess it would have been too much trouble to just come out and say who you were.

You're as FOS as a Christmas turkey. I'm going to duck now, and wait for my "back-up."

It was only stupid to you. I think those with a brain know as you get older you eyesight gets worse. Nobody gets out of being old.

Even those who retain pretty good eyesight as they get older will admit it's not as good as it used to be.

Why is that hard for you to grasp?

I can point out many other examples about you, but it's not that important.

Here's a revaluation for you. It's not about you either.

Anyway, this is going nowhere. I'm done with it. PM me if you have more to say.

Dumb as a rock. Cya.

The new Remington and the older Ultimate Firearms ML use a similar large mag rifle primer breach plug and large amounts of pellets or BH209. UF only recommends pellets, 3-4 of them.

3 Triple7 mag pellets gets a 250-300gr bullet into the 2300fps range. They have even used this load at Friendship and won a national match in the hunter class.

Remington allows both pellets and BH209 but the official BH209 data is not available yet. Roughly 140gr by volume gets you over 2200fps.

Both of these rifles are overbuilt including locking lugs just like a Rem700 or 40X centerfire. The UF uses a Lothar barrel which is proofed to well over 100kpsi. 4 pellet loads can exceed 52kpsi.

Cooper Firearms of Montana just released its first muzzleloader that will also handle pretty stiff loads of BH209. Its based on their own action and a Wilson match grade barrel....Very pretty rifle too.

The way forum members keep endorsing 400 yard shooting and 2500 fps, it's just a matter of time before state agencies take the word "primitive' out of muzzleloading hunting and ban muzzleloader seasons.

Some forum members don't seem to realize they are slowly introducing more conference room discussions on such bans. Some forum members are trying to ruin this sport, so real muzzleloader hunters that abide by it's limitations and engage in the limitations, cannot partake in their muzzleloader seasons at some point in the future........ why?.... because state agencies aren't going to allow 2000+fps forever.

People!
Learn to respect this fine sport, before it's gone forever, all because a select few try pushing the envelope further and further, turning their muzzleloaders into centerfire speeds and to make matters worse, talk all day and night here about doing so, on an open forum like this one.

State agencies cannot control new technology. But they surely can control hunting regulations and endorse bans. Some members here are ruining this sport and don't have the brains to realize it.... in advance of D-Day!

Oh, good Lord...and folks wonder where the term "Fudd" originates.

Just like the compound bow was accused of ruining the sport of archery, the inline has been accused of this in regard to muzzleloaders...and it wont, and didnt, happen in either case.

At most, what will happen is that the old farts will be given their own, separate hunting classification for decrepit guns, like longbowmen and recurve archers have gotten. With that will come another season, with its own set of arcane rules...which will be pushed and bent to the ragged edge of legality, all the while the same crotchety folks whine and moan.

Like any sport with rules, those rules are exploited to the advantage of those who choose to. Some choose not to do so, and some do...neither is wrong.

LOL, where have I heard that before?

Which members are trying to ruin this sport?

In case you haven't noticed, many states allow pretty much anything as far as technology. Who are you to tell people what kind of firearm technology they should or shouldn't discuss on an open forum?

And who are you to define what a "real muzzleloader hunter" is?

Some would define that as shooting only black powder, but I'm guessing you wouldn't agree with that?

State agencies are not going to ban muzzleloader seasons based on any discussions from this forum. They're going to set their regulations based on the reasons behind their special seasons and input from their wildlife biologists and their citizens.

Thanks for the info.

im hunting NM this year which allows scopes, sabots, pellets, etc.

Im using an open sight hawken with patched round ball to keep the sport true.

I've owned and used a bunch of different inlines including a Marlin ML-54, TC Black diamond, Knight Disc Elite, TC Encore, and a CVA Optima.

If I were to recommend a current choice, for the money, it would be the CVA Optima.

Congratulations. I never knew the old-style guns only shot round balls. Good to know.

What I find hilarious is the definition of the "the sport," and "keeping it true." Do you think that those who were saddled with these monstrosities would not have, if given the chance, dumped them in a nanosecond for a modern inline, or cartridge rifle?

Especially from a guy who has the name of a modern replica powder.

Quite a bit of action on this thread since I last posted!

I went and checked out the Omega, its a Z5. Blued and black synthetic stock. Looks to be in good shape and with the Leuplod quick detach base and rings seems worth the asking price. I didnt pick it up yet, but may.

I did enjoy the suggestion of the caplock, and have toyed with the idea of a traditional flinter for the late PA season. For now though I will go with a modern inline.

Thanks for all the suggestions thus far, and for the entertainment thrown in as well!!

Just a comment on old guys and open sights. I had cataract surgery back in '02, and the nice new lenses installed gave me almost 20/20 vision for distance. I have to use cheap reading glasses for reading and computer work but they're only +1.25
I do have some floaters that cause some bluring from time to time but that happens with scopes as well.

I got nothing to lose. My state already allows far more effective methods than a ML during that season. We already have special hunts that ban inlines in a few select areas with very high success rates.

You wont and dont hear me complaining. I prefer to hunt firearms season anyway with a muzzleloader.

BTW i dont see you using a PRB in your Knight Vision or T/C inline. Nothing is stopping you. Get rid of those high BC PR bullets, BH209, sabots and forget about shooting 150yards.

Not a damn thing primitve about any of it.

I suppose state regulators wouldn't ban it here in Michigan. There's so little muzzleloader-season participation on public lands here.

pretty soon states will class a single shot centerfire as a muzzleloader because its slower to reload.

Some states already include straight walled centerfires in their primitive season...I wish ours did. Missouri recently began allowing centerfire handguns during "alternative firearms," and I could not be happier.

What many fail to realize is that some states dont even have a rifle season. Its shotgun, ML or bow/crossbow only. Slug gun accuracy and quality improved quite a bit because of these regs.

These aint grandpa's smooth bore shooting Foster type slugs anymore. Modern slug guns are very capable of 200 yard kills.

Kinda like what has happened with MLs since 1985 and Tony Knight's MK85.



I would love to hunt with something like a 405Win 1885 High Wall but in all honesty, i can easily do just as well with a 45cal smokeless build.

My normal hunting load is kinda tame compared to most of the 45 smokeless builds but its still far more powerful than nearly any older straight wall cartridge.

Damn thats a pretty gun though.