Will they stand up to smokeless loads? or do I need to swap them out with MMP's? I was going to dick around with 45-70 bullets, and will eventually, but I've got a lot going on, and will probably hit the easy button this year.

Barnes uses MMP sabots.

The MMP short, hph24 and hph12 will handle some smokeless loads. The tan sabot for 45s doesnt do very well compared to the harvester. The orange for 458s does ok but lots of people prefer the Harvester black crushrib.

I just bought a pack of the 290gr Spitfire T-EZs to try. I'm going to try them with the sabots they come with and the CrushRibs and go with what works best. I've read the MMPs don't hold up when fired in a hot barrel, but don't know that for a fact. 200 CrushRibs showed up on Thursday, so I'm set for whatever comes up.

I've been operating under the notion that no sabots work well from a hot barrel for quite some time now. I picked up a pack of crush ribs to try with the 458's I have and 4 packs of expanders, 2 in 250, and 2 in 300.

that's what I have heard about the tan sabot for 45,s also

picked up a box of 50 harvester light blue ones from midsouth yesterday for $6.21
gonna stick the 195 barnes in them and see how they shoot outta my Kodiak promag .45 compared to the tans ones
also got some 200 gr sst
and they came with that same tan sabot
gonna give them a whirl with the light blues also

I ran the hornady 300's with harvester crush ribs over 65 grains of AA2015. About an inch and a half at 100 yds. Optimum is supposed to be 67-69 grains, so I'll see what happens as I work it up. The crush ribs loaded pretty easy with .458's. Recoil went from mild with .250's over 5744 to pretty sharp with the 300's over 2015.

I just purchased a box of XTP 300s in 44-cal from Cabelas. After reading your post above, I'm glad I left the store with a 50-pk of the green Harvester Crushed Rib sabots for them. Sounds like I may need them.

I stock 7-8 different plastic sabots at home. I always go to the range with a couple sabot options, when trying new bullets that I recently purchased.

Yes try both for sure. The MMP tan can shoot good if the bore is too large for the Harvester light blue. Try the 200gr XTP for fun shooting. They are cheap and very accurate in my 45s.

I run the black (non crush rib)harvester sabots with 250 gr hornady sst bullets and 43.0 gr of IMR4759 in my MLII and sabots look perfect after shot and great accuracy.

the light blues are small as heck for my bore
i could feel one I rammed thru the bore with my breech plug out jumping over the rifleing .
at 94 yds my gun is just a tad under a 1/2 inch high of the bull
group was 3 shots right at 3/4ths of an inch total with win 209 primer
100 grs of 7772f and the barnes 195 with tan sabot
a new leupold vx1 3-9x40 on it
took 6 shots to get it zeroed
(moving reticle to last shot for adjustment made 3 of them total)
complete clean between each shot
all on 9 power
went out the next day
shot at 50 yds on 3 power
shot was dead center about 3/4ths of inch above bull
then I started hearing thunder off towards the southwest corner of stewart and henry counties
so left for the day
get back out again
I figure the rifle is probably dead on at 110-115tds with it being 1/2 high at 94yds


wish I had never jumped on the bh209 band wagon when I original got the rifle 3 yrs ago
had a lot of headaches and worries trying to make bh209 work in this gun
had all the probs with bh209
bh209 solvent wasn't that great to me for cleaning it seemed
I had hangfires, no fires with primer just going off
blowby in breachplug area
used magnum primers and all in between
enlarged flashole


ect ect
experienced it all
tried all the fixes
but never had complete confidence carrying that rifle with bh209 in it

breechplug in a Kodiak is not designed for bh209 and getting one modified was possible but I never did it

and finnaly went back to what has worked in past in the optima I had that slumlord gave to me during my brief period when I jumped from a tc renegade 50 cal to inline 209 guns

7772f
butches black powder bore shine
barnes 195
win 209 primers

now I have a rifle I feel confident in and don't have nagging worries about ignition any more
and confidence in your rifle going boom each time and being precisely accurate is the most important thing you need to have in your mind when you are out hunting

I also found sabots from last year that had blowby marks on em from bh209 when compared to the 777 ones which had no signs of gas blowby
and it was a pleasure to clean the barrel and breech plug with butches black powder bore compared to cleaning with bh209 solvent

butches black powder bore shine is good stuff
777 crud ring is a non issue.........

take out breech plug fill it up with boreshine(very small squirt)
set aside
go to barrel

run a brush with a patch with bore shine on it thru the barrel
breech to muzzle
take patch off
push brush thru
reverse patch on brush
push back thru

do this twice
total of 4 wet patch passes, 2 brush passes

run dry patch on brush thru once and reverse patch
then run breech plug thread brush into breech twice
twist with threads while withdrawing it out

then bore snake twice
barrel is good

cleaning breech plug fire channel with small drill bit
q tips
cut up pipe cleaners
and a stretched out paper clip for the flash hole

takes me about 10 minutes to clean between shots

I like to hunt with clean barrel and zero with clean barrel for same shot conditions /barrel pressure/velocity as much as I can control myself

im anal about chit I geuss
comes from being an infantryman for 24 yrs and making sure joes kept their chit in working order at all times

always been a Nazi about firearm condition
nothing ticks me off more than a dirty weapon or people blaming weapons for not functioning properly when they don't take care of em

sometimes your life or your buddies life depends on your weapon being able to go bang and hit chit ya know..........

Renegade, you are spot on for your cleaning suggestion. I highly reccomend also clean at range rather then waiting till home or "when You can get to cleaning it".

Very helpful advice
ABLE

In my Savage I could not get the ez load ones to work they did not offer enough compression for smokeless.

While the regular sabots that come with the TMZ hold up just fine.

You do all of that between shots!?!

That's just more "fun" than I want to have.

My Knight is a pain to clean, but fortunately with BH, I don't have to very often. Actually, I think I could get by with once a season as long as I keep the flash channel clear. Next time I go to the range with it, I'm going to shoot the pooey out of it and see just how long it will go.

I discharge at the end of each day if I don't kill something
and hunt with a clean barrel the next day
im ocd on the routine
takes me about about 2-3 hours at the range to shoot 5-7 rounds
check target,smoke breaks, wiss breaks,take some pics, ect ect ect
about 10-15 minutes actually to clean between shots

I don't mind cleaning
just want the same repeatable conditions shot to shot
just what I do

I might fire 30-35 ml rounds a year
most of them are discharge rounds at the end of the day
have to shoot a doe on ft Campbell to get your earn a buck tag
and I might shoot 1 buck during ml in tn or 2 (2 buck tn limit)

so im looking at 4 shots at deer and possibly a followup on a downed animal which hasn't been needed using barnes 195,s yet

I was really anal about having a fouling shot dry cleaned barrel
with my tc renegade 50 back in the day also
hunted with that gun for almost 17 years before I made the change to inline

fords and chevys
blondes and brunettes

whatever works for ya......

I'm wondering if the fact that I'm running .458's isn't why the crushed ribs are working. There isn't much resistance even at that. I haven't been back to the range since. Need to work up on the harvester crush rib with 458's and try the barnses.

Quit fussing over the .458s. 451-.452s work just as well. Better selection too.

And you have what kind of experience shooting smokeless in a Savage?

Its very well known that many Savage owners have better luck with .458s and the Black Crushribs. Some do quite well with the MMP orange sabot. In bores that run very large, the 458 and Crushrib combo can be one of the few loads that shoots extremely well when 452s are marginal.

Hey, don't mind me! I'm just tryng to help the thread-starter. You obviously aren't by leading him in directions where he's uncomfortable.

BTW.... most of the real world smokeless teachers don;t teach huge powder loads and huge bullets, not until Graduate School anyways.

Hey, but I thought you the highly experienced smokeless teacher knew that/..... obviously not.

BTW and once again thread-starter. There are a few .452s that work good in smokeless and there are smokeless plastic sabots for .452s also. Plus you don't have to wreck your shoulder in recoil having fun playing with smokeless.

We inexperienced "student" shooters seem to carry a little more common sense than the teachers.

I'm turning the XTP's inside out and causing them to shed cores with mild loads of 5744. I expect I will lose an animal with them someday if I keep running them at these velocities. Other than the barnse, I don't think that there's anything that's going to do much better in that diameter and I may just go that route, but it's always good to have options. Comparing muzzle velocities, it looks like the savage with the slower powders matches the 45-70 pretty well, and that's what the .458's I'm using are designed for.

I don't see where i recommended HUGE bullets or loads. The 1-24 twist of the Savage is better suited to a 300gr bullet. No one said anything about a need to shoot them fast. 5744 barely breaks 2000fps with a 300gr bullet.

If Triple Se7en knew anything about smokeless he would know 43gr of 5744 and a 300gr bullet is far from producing harsh recoil in the Savage.

Barnes and Hornady both sell a .458 in 250gr if you "dont want to wreck" your shoulder. LOL

Many of the cheaper 300gr 458s work very well with mild loads. Im no fan of 5744 but it offers plenty of velocity for the Rem, Sierra or Hornady 300gr JHPs. They perform well at 1800fps or even a little less. 5744 can be a bit rough on sabots when you get close to max load data.

60-63gr of Reloder7 and a 458 300gr is no speed demon but its very reliable. Its also easy on the sabots compared to the faster burning powders. Its only real drawback is it is not very good for 250gr bullets.

These loads are far from advanced user status and recoil is very manageable in the Savage. You could go even higher with Reloder7 but personally i prefer other powders if you have a need for speed.

I would also suggest you look for some SR4759 before supplies are gone. Its a very good all around powder but its been discontinued. Velocity is better than 5744 and i prefer its pressure curve a bit better than 5744.

I found a half pound of 4759 at a gun show, and a pound at a garage sale, but I think I'll stick with 5744 for light loads. Probably back it off a little from what I've been running. That would probably work with the XTP's, at least the 300's. In addition to the 2015, I picked up both flavors of 4198. I probably won't get around to messing with them until after this year's deer season.

If the half pound container is metal, its the old SR4759 version which is hotter than the newer version. Ive never used 2015. Either of the 4198s are mainly good for the fast 300gr+ bullet loads in the 50cal or many loads in a 45cal conversion.

My favorite is N120 for 275gr and 300gr bullets but its impossible to find anymore.