I'd like to hear opinions on the best muzzleloaders ever built for general hunting purposes. Factors to consider would be manufacture, price, accuracy, looks, caliber, grouping and dependability. What's your favorite?

I like my Savages, very accurate!!

+ 1

I think the simple rifles of Henry Leman, Lancaster county were very practical. Especially his later trade/Indian rifles. But those of J. Henry and H. Derringer were not to be sneezed at either. Those J. Henry rifles would run a close second! All well built utility rifles.

My Steve Zihn 8 Bore and Mike Adcock custom 58 cal are some of the nicest well made black powder guns I've ever seen, true craftsmanship in each one of them, and yes, 8 Bore to 58 cal, mice to moose, well covered.

Steve does build some dang pretty rifles!


My passion is nice flint Jägers!

( Although I am currently contemplating a percussion conversion )

10-4 KW, those Jaegers are nice, I almost bought a 4 Bore flinter from Track Of The Wolf a couple three years ago.

You know a very practical rifle back in th day were the assorted models of US "Common" rifles. And I would also include the US Rifle Model 1841!

The old sxs smoothbore/rifled would be handier than a zipper on the front of a womans shirt.

Plain ol' smoothbore trade guns too! I imagine such firearms saw more use in North America than any other! Least Mr. Hanson thought so!!!

Close to 300 years constant use. Or more!!!

savage hands down

For general hunting purposes it doesn't get any better than a TC Big Boar. There are a few non-traditional features like the flat rubber recoil pad instead of a hooked butt with a metal plate and adjustable sights which may be a bit offensive but overall, it's still a real muzzleloader. The inlines, while loading from the front, are otherwise just centerfire bolt actions and single shots with the firing mechanisms swapped out, they're not authentic and not worthy of being included in the discussion.

Tom

Absolutely, and the fact that we'll never run out of rocks makes the flinters even more usable.

Savage ML and TC

Gunner,

The architecture of those late era S. Hawken 1/2 stocks is nothing but Hell for Stout! Definitely made for the rigors of the trail. As Mr. Baird and others so aptly illustrated! And, there are now ample quality-built contemporary commercial models available for any who would like the experience!

Smoothbore anything. Plenty good hunting accuracy at distances farther than most modern inline users would admit to, using patched round balls. Add to that the capability of slinging birdshot and what better all-around gun is there, come to that?

Do we really think that 200 years from now people will be waxing nostalgic about plastic stocked inlines the way we (or at least some of us) do about trade guns, fowlers, fusils, muskets, etc. now? I highly doubt it.

My Nicholas Beyer smooth rifle is a thing of beauty. .48 caliber, so I tend to think it was reamed smooth along the way sometime from a .40 or .45. Or not. Who knows?

Very true! I do like my old Centermark Fusil de Chasse! Nice light and accurate. I stuck a simple brass rear sight on mine reminiscent of The Fusil found at one of the Tunica Indian sites at Haynes Bluff on the Mississippi. It's a pleasure to carry and to shoot!

Édit!

If you find yourself last minute invited on a hunt and all you have with you is an old North Star Hudson Bay NW gun. 5, 440 dia. RB's and 70 grains fffg, will kill hell outta big doe!

Now that we're talking about smooth bores let's not forget the Brown Bess. Accurate enough with a patched round ball for woods hunting. Can be loaded with shot for birds, bunnies and turkeys. Paper cartridges for sustained fire against colonial rabble. Ruled the world's battlefields for 125 years. Huzzah!

My "Bess" of choice is my Light Infantry Fusil. Let's say a 2/3 scale Bess in "carbine' bore! Served me well at Cowpens on the set of "The Patriot" too! Several pounds lighter than the standard Second Land Pattern Musket.

Savage ML2

A .54cal Flintlock Pennsylvania rifle made by Jud Brennan

Nice rifled gun LH!

That's what a true muzzleloader is supposed to be LONGHUNTER. Thanks for the picture of one beautiful masterpiece of craftsmanship. I would love to see more pictures like this of what's becoming a long lost art. Thanks guys.

hbj,

Here's my Virginia style rifle. Heavy English influnece. .50 cal

And pair or Jägers. Annchen und Liebchen

Beautiful rifles fellas!

French fusils

My Eye Talian Bess Trade Gun.

My Jack Garner 45 caliber late Virginia rifle. On its second barrel. The second best muzzleloader only because it's not quite as versatile as a smooth bore.

Those are rifles beautiful. I love that tiger stripe wood. I have two similar to K-Mikes my grandfather hand built in the mid 80's. I have been addicted ever since. Keep them pics coming guys. Thanks.

Nice shootin' irons Klondike!

I use an inline 209 type mzldr to hunt an extra state, while my inline shoots very well, it is a pain to clean, as are all mzldrs.
I like hunting/shooting a centerfire 10 fold over the muzzleloader. You guys sure put on a display of artful looking smokepoles in the preceding posts though.

"Best" can be defined in many ways.

Is an AK 47 the best chose for a center fire,--- or is the best choice a Hagan single-shot made by 4 guild masters?

Well it depends on what your mission statement is I suppose.



If simply killing game is the mission statement I believe the best one is the most modern scope sighted inline you can get, firing smokeless powder and shooting jacketed bullets, or a Russian RPG, or maybe it is an 60MM Mortar. If loading from the muzzle, and ability to kill more easily is the mission statement something of the above category is best.

But if "Best" means tradition, style, history, hand crafted quality, and not simply trying to get past game regulations and the original intent of what Muzzle-loading seasons were written into the law for, I believe a hand made flintlock of cap-lock rifle, made in the old way, to the highest standard of quality, is the best.

I for one am not against in-line muzzleloaders. Not at all. I am for any kind of shooting that burns powder. In fact, I have killed deer and antelope with AKs and ARs. I have killed elk with auto loading 308s and one 270 Short mag too. I am NOT against modern guns at all, even if they were to be single shots and even if they load from the muzzle.

But I am and I have always been against giving super modern weapons a "free pass" to be used for hunting in seasons that were designed to give place for old fashioned weapons. The game and fish departments want the money, and have lost sight (intentionally I think) of the intent of the law in the first place.

I have killed a lot of game with muzzleloaders in my life, starting when I was 14. So far I have not killed a single animal on a muzzleloader license, or in muzzleloader season. I have killed 100% of them in regular gun season. I tried 2 times in muzzleloader season, and both times I got skunked.
But I have killed about 23 head of game (what I can count now, and remember for sure) with muzzleloaders in my life and all were on a regular tag. That's big game only, not small game or varmints. I speak of deer, elk antelope and moose.

Speaking only for myself, I like guns and I like to hunt with them. But the guns I like, I like a lot, all year long. I like them in and out of the hunting season.

An inline to me is like a wrench. It's a tool----- and not even a tool I'd take in pride in.
Like a pipe wrench. It stays in a box for as long as I don't need it and is pretty much forgotten until I need it again. When I need that wrench I get it out, it preforms the job it's designed to do, and I put it back. If the mission statement is to make water come to the house, the pipe wrench is just fine. I love having the water run when I want it, but when I turn on the faucet I don't have fond memories of the wrench.

If the mission statement is to kill something I'd have to say the inline is like the pipe wrench, but so is the AK47 and the AR15 or FN-FAL and these 3 are FAR better for making meat.

So I for one have no use for an inline at all. But that just me.

Hunting with an inline (to me) is to loose sight of the mission statement.
My mission statement is to hunt the old way. Not just to kill something.
That's the same reason I hunt archery seasons with a long bow and wood arrows.

It doesn't make me right or you wrong.

But I'd bet I feel a lot more satisfaction 1 month after the hunt, and every month thereafter, than the inline of compound shooters do.

Just my guess.

well said

"Hunting with an inline (to me) is to loose sight of the mission statement."

Do you mean lose sight?

Among inlines, inexpensive. . .CVA Optima

Higher budget. . .NULA.

Yup.....lose sight.
Sorry..........

Is either of those the Pedersoli you posted about several months back? Well, I think it was you who got a Pedersoli Jager.

Pedersoli doesn't make anything THAT nice.

Howdy Micky!

No. Neither is a Pedersoli. I built the top rifle and the bottom one was built by an unknown craftsman.

Must have been talking to someone else about the Pedersoli then. I was hoping one of yours was one because I have been thinking very hard about buying one... someday.

Those are nice rifles

Muzzle Loading Rifles by Sharps Man, on Flickr

Another quick thought
"Best" needs to be understood in one of 2 ways.

#1 The best quality of any gun made in the muzzleloader era, (from the days of the hand cannon to the beginning of the breach-loading era) or any reproduction of any such gun. Quality being viewed on the basis of accuracy, dependability and artworks

Or #2 The best technology ever made (so far) for the use of killing game with a weapon that happens loads from the muzzle.

In category #1 I would say the ones that probably are on top of the heap were the German and English guns made in the late 1860s
In category #2 I have to say.................I don't know. I have no interest in a muzzleloading rifle made with 2017 technology. I have a scoped AR-15 in 6.8 SPC now. If I only carry one round in the chamber and no magazine on my person I would have the same capabilities as such a gun, but hunting that way seems to beg a question to me.

Why?

I don't care what others hunt with.

But when I hunt with a bow I want to hunt the old way. Long bow with wood arrows. Same with any muzzleloader. My rifles are recreations of guns made in the late 1700s

I can kill game easier and farther away with my 270, or my FN-FAL, or my Ruger SR762.
But that's not the point of hunting with a weapon that provides a greater challenge.

When I hunt with my long bow, or my flintlock I hunt in the regular season. I never bother with "bow season" or 'muzzleloader season".
I am not trying to cheat. I am not even 100% dedicated to killing an animal. If I were I'd be using one of my auto-loaders.

Very Nice guns fellows! The best one I ever owned was 45 cal. Hatfield, still kick myself for selling it and going to an inline! I do have a 40cal TC hammer rifle that I hunted with last fall.

Gents; thanks for posting up the pics you do (along with the commentary). Am I the only one that wonders in here with a beer buzz to see what Kaywoodie has to show today?
Beautiful stuff. Thanks again.

You need to look up Monty Mandarino, he may be the best builder of any age of muzzle loading rifles.

I liked what Szihn had to say. However, if one can make his peace with the non traditional, the Remingtons (three of them) that I'm playing with are very accurate clear out to 300yds. Some hundred yard groups are just one big hole. I had no idea ML were that accurate.

Best ever made? That's easy.





It weighs 7#4 oz, my old eyes can still work with the sights because the barrel is 42" long. .45 Caliber...best I can do....offhand....at 50 yards.
Doesn't need no stinkin' caps, just a steady hold.



Fella named Turpin built it.

Nice rifles Sharpsman and DD!!! Very nice!!

SHarpsman, what is the story on that lefthanded plains rifle? Looks very nice.

White Super 91 .50 Cal, dumbest thing I ever did was sell that baby.

Kaywoodie,

Where would a person go to have something like that built? I have seen kits but really don't want to do one myself. Thank you.

Glen Jones built the above rifle.

http://www.flintlockrifles-gljones.com

Matt Avance builds nice stuff too!

http://www.tennesseevalleymuzzleloading.com

And Clay Smith too!

http://www.claysmithguns.com

Also check in to see what Track Of The Wolf has they get stuff all the time!

https://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Category.aspx/485


Lots of other capable folks out there as well. Just Google away!!!

Good Luck!
KW

Édit!

Oops! Forgot to add, our szihn here on the fire builds some keepers!

I have an old college friend that has built some darn nice flinters.
Just for himself.
Of some talent.
Might have him build me one (if he will).

Not sure what the best muzzleloader ever made was but I just ordered one of this guy's (www.jimkibler.net) muzzleloader "kits" and I am saying that these may be the best "kits" ever made - for the money and quality. I got a .32 caliber that I intend to use on squirrels and such......these kits are amazing - heck just price the parts and see where you end up!! I'll post some pictures when I get it done (probably be a while with my schedule but if I had a couple of days I think it could be ready to go!!).

PennDog

Thats gonna be a fun rifle PennDog! Looking forward to pics when you get it done!!

KW

KW,

It really should be a fun little rifle - I have always wanted a .32 caliber flintlock for squirrels.....I have a Vincent style caplock in .32 that I absolutely love for squirrels and it will go with me to this year's 1st annual squirrel camp in northern Pennsylvania. I will be sure to try and post pics (I'll have to figure out the new process since Photobucket went "south") of both squirrel camp (only muzzleloaders allowed) and the Kibler rifle when complete.

PennDog

Imho hands down the tc new englander. Accurate, reliable, relative light weight, affordable, well made, nice looking rifle. I'm sort of old school so not an inline fan as I see primitive weapons ( is that PC anymore?) seasons as meaning traditional but thats just me. Of course there are a lot of outstanding customs out there but for a production gun tc is tuff to beat and the new englander is their value leader. I also had a Browning mtn. rifle for a while that was very nice but much more costly than a new englander.

Bangeye,

Back in the day all those T/C rifles were well made, accurate rifles! The Hawken, Renegade, Seneca, etc, were all top quality firearms! Well worth the cash!

I knew Clay "back in the day", and he tried to convince me to join him in an apprenticeship at the gun shop in Williamsburg. Wallace Gussler was still buzzing around there at the time. He did, and I didn't. I couldn't give up my good paying job to live on snowballs while doing the six or seven year (if I remember correctly) apprenticeship. Oh, to wind back the hands of time!

Clay builds good stuff. One of my old Buds back in Alabama has one of his painted English trade guns!

The best one for me is my Omega. It's cheap and it shows. But it's easy to clean and it's accurate. I use 2 T7 pellets, and starting to use 240gr XTPs this year because I ran put of the Sierras I was using. I have a scope, legal for deer here in Iowa. Some day I will get off my duff to chase elk with it, I will have to put the sights back on it then. It looks better without sights.

Gotta ask: Which side?

Ingwe was at the actual battle, I imagine.

I was with the revolutionaries. . I have some plans for that Fusil. When I can get in a working mood. Might just remove several pounds of wood. Slim it up a bit. "Sporterize" It!

Clay Smith makes a slim officers model Fusil. I may do something similar.

Glad to see this thread. One of those Tennessee valley Tennessee poor boys is mighty tempting

Bangeye,

My close hunting pard has an Avance built Leman style rifle. Very plain rifle. 42" swamped bbl. .50 cal perc. It weighs in a little over 7 pounds! It is a joy to carry!!! And balances nicely!!!

Édit! Next time I'm up to the ranch, I'll get a pic of it!

I got a Renegade cheap because the tang/hook didn't sit right and the wood for several screws stripped.
Buddy bought it new, put a peep on the tang (and missed an elk).
I bedded the bbl, to get hook to sit right, redid screw holes and put bbl sight back on.
Then I shot about 100 patched and it then was good to go.

I mean really good to go...........like freakin' tack driver.
Don't think I ever put it on paper at 100 yds.
Maybe 50...........and can't remember.
Farthest MZ kill with that rig.

Did get a new Englander that was OK..........but after trigger job and being shot in..........cloverleafed on the bench at 100.

My Hawken Silver Elite is the only TC I've had (3 renegade, 1 New Eng and 1 Hawken)...........that had the QLA.
I hate it.
Gun the most temperamental TC I've had or seen.
Maybe something to do with the stainless?

It shoots OK, but would throw fliers now and then (left). Minimized occurance by going to musket cap and changing powder. Still happens, but to lesser amount and effect.
None of my blued TC's acted this way.

Plus the Hawken doesn't fit me like the others. Cracks my cheek something fierce. I've backed off the bullet weight and charge, less likely to take a smack.
I killed a couple of decent bucks with it, and it is pretty............so never dumped the turd.

No, it's the QLA. I've had 2. Neither shot very well. Other TCs were good. At one time, one of the shops here sent a lot of QLA barrels back to TC to address accuracy problems.

Tom

Fitted sling swivel and button to my newest Jäger this week. Ive also been fabricating all manner of new accoutrements for her! Loading block, starter, ball pouch, etc. Meet my girl "Gretchen"!



I hope to Carry her on a south Texas hunt this season if I can get away!

Be still my beating heart!!

Buttplate and triggerguard are pretty cool too! That hammer block kinda grows on you as well!

Damn! Nice!!!

Thank you Mr Bartram

Took it out last night to see about connecting with a pig. Got to my fav ambush spot at a creek crossing, but they just wouldnt cooperste. Saw plenty of deer, just no pigs! So goes hunting. Always next week!! .

Was definitely a treat to get out!!!

savage

Would any one here (or anyone any of you know) be interested in a SUPER nice, fancy Golden Age rifle? It's 62 caliber and of my own making. It was for a man who had to back out of the deal because of financial reasons. It's about 75% finished now, and so it will be "on the sales block" very soon.

As a rule people have to wait several years for one of my rifles, (sorry, but there is only so many hours in a day, and I can't make them any faster than I am making them now) but if anyone would want such a rifle, it will be available in the next 2 months and maybe less. It's going to be one of the "high end guns" I do now and then. Fully carved and engraved with fancy brass and silver patch-box, hand made inlay work, and all the bells and whistles.

The price will be $3500. Please pass the information along if you would. Such guns are not in the reach of everyone, but with about 375 hours in it plus $1050 worth of parts and wood, that's not a bad price. About $6.55 an hour.
I'll post pictures soon when I finish it up.

I WOULD LIKE TO ADD THIS. THE CVA KODIAK 45 CAL A TRUE TACK DRIVER. TRYED KNIGHT WELL BUILT, TC SAME, TRADITIONS ANOTHER WELL BUILT GUN LYMANS, THESE ARE GUNS THAT ARE THE NEW GREAT CVA I THINK ARE GREAT #1 THE ALTUMITE MADE IN LANSING MICHIGAN A BETTER MADE GUN ALL AROUND.

Shooting a modern inline is like kissing your sister.

I guess some people think it's the same thing, but...

Ughh, that certainly puts it into perspective. Can't say I'm a fan of inlines. I guess they are for the guy who simply wants to take advantage of an extra hunting season. So having said that, when are they going to start marketing bows with high power scopes, Picatinny rails, and detachable high capacity mags?!

Best: Anything with a breech plug

Worst: Anything without a breech plug

Really Worst: Anything with a flint and flash pan.

"Really Worst: Anything with a flint and flash pan."

Oh Scott,

Until I see them get a seal of approval from Shrapnel, I stand pat on my answer.................

LOL!!!!