Hoping to do a coastal brown bear hunt in the next two years and need to get a rifle ready. What caliber should I be looking at to keep the guide happy? TIA

That's an exciting prospect. Pick a firearm that you are very familiar with, cartridge choice is important but the right bullet PUT IN THE RIGHT PLACE IS EVEN MORE IMPORTANT. It is a major step backwards in your plan if you pick out something to use that you can't handle well and hit well with. I'd pick a stainless bolt gun with a synthetic stock that fit me well , scoped with my Vari X lll 1.5 x5x with buis on the rifle. Chambered for the 300 win mag.or larger. Probably wouldn'dt even buy a new a new gun as I have enough suitable to choose from all ready.200 + gr NPT's loaded in newer brass. The idea of using handoads does not bother me.What would bother me is the idea of not being practiced enough to have 100% confidence in my outfit and self. No I have not shot any bears. MB

One you shoot well and is large enough to still do the job. Ie don't show up with a .243 and say "but I shoot it well and can put the bullet right where I want to!" Guide likely wouldn't be thrilled.

Also don't show up with a .458 Lott and not be able to hit a thing.

For me I'd grab my .338 win mag. Or if I needed an excuse to buy something else I'd look towards the .375ruger. if the guide was all right with it I wouldn't hesitate to take a .30-06 with premium 200 or 220s.

I should also add I've only taken black bears, if that actually matters.

-Jake

As far as caliber goes, I wouldn’t go under .30 cal. , but as far as cartridges, a 338 mag. or 375 Ruger might be my picks.

What adequate rifles do you currently own, and are you looking for an excuse to buy something bigger/better/ newer. etc.....

I've known LOTS of guys buy a gun "for Africa" - which is an excuse to buy a new gun - and any excuse is a good excuse to purchase...

GUIDED Brown Bear, as your Guide, Probably .30/06 minimum,

As others mentioned, something you can shoot right the first time.

My ss ruger 9.3x62 with 286 nps would get the nod were it my hunt.

IMO this sums it very nicely, but starting cartridge would be a 30-06 and 180gr bullets.

As a side note, when I was in AK this spring black bear hunting. I asked the outfitter, who also does SE Alaska brown bear hunts. What cartridge would you pick for brown bear? As long as shooting accuracy was equal and not a factor. "Probably a 375"

But he also stated that shot placement is primary importance.

I do not plan on ever hunting Browns, but if I did, I would take a 338-06 or 375 in that order.

I bet it's safe to say the 30-06 has been used successfully to kill more brown bears in Alaska (and probably Canada too) then most of the others combined.
If I were to use one I'd load with 220 grain bullets and preferable Nosler Partitions.

So because the OP asked what is minimum I would say the 30-06 or ballistic combination in the same range. 7.62X54R, 7.5 Swiss, 8X57 and a handful of others too.

I like my big rifles and I shoot them very well, so I would take one of my more powerful calibers, but if I was to find myself in Alaska again and had one of my 30-06s, (or my 8X57) I would not feel under armed if I got to choose my own ammo.
Not at all.

I've only been a couple times so take my limited experience with a grain of salt. When inquiring on caliber/chambering, the outfitter asked what I had in the stable already as he preferred comfort/familiarity with something over a larger chambering just for the occasion. At the time, I had 30.06, 300wsm, 338 Win and 35 Whelen - "hey, any of those are perfect but bring the Whelen – I haven't had a hunter shoot a bear with that chambering yet".

His take is way too many guys show up with new rifles and are relatively over-gunned and under-experienced with it/them.
And Phil Shoemaker has reinforced this same thing here for an eternity.

One other note - the gentleman I hunted with is a well-known sheep hunter and his clients have taken several good bears on sheep hunts with .270's - and with zero drama. That's not to suggest it's ideal, just that folks that haven't done it before think it has to be a howitzer to be effective. I'd definitely begin with .30 cal as the starting flavor.

I'm an expert on this subject. The 7th or 10th time while moose hunting that I've come thru a thick screen of brush wilth .30-06 in hand to find a steaming gallon of bear scat at my feet, I up calibered to a .338WM.

It worked, too. 50 plus years in Alaska and i've yet to shoot (or even want to) a brown bear.

I skeert them, I did.

And the reverse a few times.... .

I do not recommend using a pair of binoculars at 3 yards tho. Lacks penetration. Focusing adjustments are now a bit stiffer too.

Maybe if I'd used 15 X 60 instead of 10 x 40?

Good luck on your hunt.

Standard medium bores and 220-300 grain bullets are a great choice. They come in lightweight 4-5 down guns for the steep terrain.

Jesse Occumpaugh can turn any deer rifle into a nice medium bore for about $275 if you dont like the factory offerings:

http://www.35caliber.com/8.html

338 federal, 338-06, 35 whelen, 358 winchester, 9.3x57 mauser, 9.3x62 mauser.

Recovery from recoil and shot number two or three come oughtta these guns in a hurry, if you'll even need a second one......

After over 40 years of doing this, I will say the quickest kills I have witnessed over the year were from propel shooting rifles they were comfortable and competent with, and a 270 or 7 mag, . 308 or a 30-06 loaded with premium bullets is as deadly as any hunter needs. If you have something larger you like take it, but only if you are comfortable with it.

What do you think about about the 358winchester for brown bear or for a bear stopper if you bump into one while moose hunting? I have a 338-06 as well.

Hal Waugh the first Master Guide in AK had a beautiful mannlicher .358 Win. that he shot some bears with. His mainstay was a 375 Weatherby which he went through three different stocks with before adding a second recoil lug.

My choice would be the 375 H&H but if I was buying it would be the 9.3x64 for more magazine capacity and lower recoil/lighter rifle. The 35 Whelen would be good for the same reasons, this would include the 338-06 with good bullets too.

I am in the process of duplicating Hal Waugh's 375 Weatherby M70 "Big Nan" for the APHA banquet this coming Dec. I think Hal claimed he went through 6 stocks, and don't know who did his stockwork but this 1948 version I am stocking does have an additional recoil lug and will be glassbedded as who ever get ps it will be able to use it.

And Hal did like the little 358 Win, and one of my guides brought his over one season and carried it. It certainly is a valid choice.

These type threads are classic.

Pay most attention to the advice of those from down in America who have never seen a brown bear, but know what to shoot.

But seriously, what do you currently own that fits the reco from Phil?

The APHA has been wanting to do a Big Nan repo for years and couple years agi I picked up a nice 1948 vintage M70 , with a Lyman 48 peep, that someone had already had rechamnered to 375 Weatherby.
It took me awhile to locate a similar piece of wood and someone with the old Fajen stock pattern to turn it.
But I have it fitted and working on the finish before sending it off for checkering.

I can tell you what I use, as I have been baiting in SC AK for last 4-5 years. Granted they are not coastal brownies, but there is a salmon stream nearby and we are usually covered up in brownies. I switched to a .338 WM this year from my previous years of hunting mostly with a .300WM. If I could have found a good .375 Ruger at the time, I would have gotten it. My son up until this year has carried a .308 Win, and this year he started carrying my .300WM. I am not targeting brown bear where we bait at, but they are there. If there was only black bear in the area, I'd carry my .30-06, or even my bow more often.

For someone coming up here for a hunt, I'd take Phil's suggestions and run with it. To be honest, my wife probably wishes I would have taken his recommendation on this topic and saved some money on buying rifles. I've hunted with people that have carried everything from a .270 Win, to a .416 Rem Mag. I even know a guy that took over one of my bait stands, that carried a .338 Federal his first season.

I'm going with .338 Norma Mag and a Barnes bullet

35 whelen, 225 partitions

Mike Odin wants me to bring a .375 H&H and 300 grain Barnes triple-shock. Another guide whose web site I visited says .338 Win. Mag. minimum.

Nah, those guys don't know. You need something 20mm or bigger to kill one of those BIG bears. Turret mounted.

Just a guess: That’ll work.

Just show up with a 6.5 Creedmoor and your guide will be happy

Do you need that belt fed or is a single shot OK?

Depends on who your gun bearers are.

Whatever rifle you choose, don't just know how to shoot it well, also know or learn how to manipulate it properly. For instance, carry it in a manner that you can get it into action quickly and be able to reload fast. Have ammo accessible regardless of what layers you happen to be wearing . Also be sure to run the thing properly, as in keep the stock mated to your face and shoulder while you run the bolt. Properly done you kill him with the first shot and prevent tracking with the follow-ups.

have taken 3 bears in Alaska using my Weatherby 300 mag using a 220 grain rpbt placed the bullet right down they went

Loaded with 147 ELD-M and a Hubble scope and you're golden . . .

The legendary "Big Nan" and Julie Waugh's .358 Winchester, two famous Alaskan rifles. Down the street from me was a fine old gentlemen named David Thorton and he owned the Brown Bear Gun Shop and Museum. Sadly he passed years ago and his interesting place sits closed.

I used to stop in there frequently to chat and one day he said. " you need to see this". He pulled "Big Nan" out of his display case and he even had the seal skin scabbard with it. He then proceeded to show me the Mod. 70 in .358 Winchester. They were both good sound rifles, made famous by a famous Alaskan guide. It is no secret I am a Mod. 70 guy and David knew this. I did not ask David how he came to acquire them and if me old memory is correct they were in a Fairbanks museum for years. I do know I liked holding a piece of history and wonder where they ended up.

I could never understand why Hal's .375 Weatherby split stocks like it did. Surely gunsmiths have been successfully bedding wooden stocks to them since their inception. One of life's mysteries?

I seem to remember Hal stating in one of his books that the .338 Winny did not impress him. At least I think it was him that stated that, unless it was one of the P&T guys. I find that odd as it has been my "go to" caliber for almost all of my mediocre 55 year Alaskan hunting career. Combined with 250 grain Nosler Partitions and later 250 and 225 grain Barnes X bullets I experienced good results.

I have two of the books written about Hal Waugh and I really enjoy the old stories, I have not looked at them in years, but will read them again this winter. I hope Phil posts a couple of pictures of the "Big Nan" he is making up.

I read an article you wrote for the APHA magazine on that rifle. Cool project.

This guy wants me to use an AR.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oqsp_JCuUe8&t=2s

That is because he sells them. And if that is what you like and you want to hunt with him then why not ?

I worked with a guy long ago that had a .300 Win. Mag. made up for a Dall sheep hunt. It had a heavy 27 inch barrel and a big scope and weighed right at 12 pounds. He said it shot wonderfully. I don 't believe he ever got a sheep, but he tried hard and logged many a steep and wet mile on his hunt. We all be different and my high weight retaining Barnes X monos have always delivered, as did the Nosler Partitions.

I always thought a M1 Garrand made into a .35 Whelan would make a superb big bear gun, ain't like they ain't reliable. Just a bit heavy for my old butt. Might as well leave it so it can accept a bayonet just in case.

30-06 with proper bullets will get you into the CNS without issue if you do your part. Anything short of a solid CNS hit does not guarantee immediate incapacitation. Velocity and 300 magnums don't add much from a charge stopping perspective. Inside of 20 yards a lower velocity round, such as the 30-06 is less likely to disintegrate on the skull and will put plenty of energy on target, even if you are pushing a 240 gr Woodleigh at lower velocities.

Of course, if you can handle an Anzio 20mm like it is an M4, go for it. There is no such thing as overkill when something is trying to kill you.

Seems pretty pragmatic and there's no denying his wealth of experience but he lost me at 4x14x50 scope.

Makes some good points about cartridges and bullet construction. Not matter the platform, be very familiar with your rifle and put the first shot where it needs to be.

I certainly do not need a 10-12# rifle to shoot accurately. Fully realizing he may be guiding less experienced hunters.

Phil, you've not been shy about talking up the ole nine-three you've carried or the 358 one of your guides carried. That's purdy cool!

Though not a guide, as a subsistence hunter, the entirety of my hunting has been with both calibers.

I've not been able to distinguish the slightest difference in killing power between the two.

Damn bears and their kevlar!

My M98 with 27" bbl weighs in about 11 lbs. Maybe a couple ounces more- I'd have to put it on the digital bathroom scale again to refresh memory. 1" groups at 300 ain't bad, but I'm not taking it sheep hunting if I ever go again, but it worked fine off the snow machine in Kotzebue for caribou for several years. I did take it caribou hunting last year off the Steese- but that was only a mile and a half hike, and maybe 1600 feet elevation climb. Not going this year tho. My "new" Mod 70 XTR in 7X57 gets the call, and the Win 94, and the 725 with fixt extractor (used as a single shot last year on those 40-mile caribou).

I'm a heathen, I guess. When Dave let me handle Big Nan, it was cool - but pretty much just another gun to me, history not-withstanding.

Nice gun.

Last time I used a Remington Custom Shop KS in 338 RUM, but that was for Mountain Grizzly, which can mean long range. When I go again, I'll take my Winchester Model 70 stainless synthetic in 375 H&H with its Docter 3-9x40 on it.

So far my personal minimum is a 9x19

I'm sure it's not your best recommendation.

But, in that situation, sure beat bear spray...

I wonder how many could have pulled that off...

DF

That's funny!
At least you can say you have BTDT !!!!!

Few, is my guess.

I missed the original story, Phil, but over time got the gist.

How many of that 9mm magazine did you use? And to reference old Ron the Drunk Comedian - How many did you plan to use?

I still had one round left in the 8 round magazine.
But it's not an event I recommend ! But relying on any handgun for bear protection is like wearing a life preserver in a boat or keeping a fire extinguisher in the home. You hope you never need them and they are a last ditch effort.

As soon as I could hear the bear huffing and charging through the brush I was wishing for my 458.

I think DG guides like you, Phil, have experience based upon multiple encounters which leaves most of us shaking our heads. I know it does me. I want to ask what may be a couple of esoteric questions: first, when a large, apex predator comes a'calllin' at a high rate of speed do you recall if your vision tunnels and time has that slowing down experience? Second, I have never been charged by anything except a buck raccoon who got his just desserts while you have reported being charged on multiple occasions by bears. In the aftermath, I wonder if there is a momentary, crystalline recognition of the fragility of one's own life and how sweet and pure life is? In other words, most of us can figure out intellectually that being alive beats the alternative but I suspect a peak experience (albeit one you did not go looking for) like a determined bear charge must make it very clear in those moments afterward?

LOLOLOLOL

That was mother nature’s version of the cardio stress test:
“Good news Mr. Shoemaker - your heart is quite strong”

Same thing happens with Slope jobs around here.

Events like that do tend to focus your attention and I still find it amazing how quickly thoughts pass through your mind. I guess that helps sort out your triage. I vividly remember thinking to keep track of the clients and not shoot if there was a chance of a pass through.

Thanks, Phil.

From two posters that have added absolutely NOTHING to the conversation.

My Grandfather killed a number of them in the 30s and 40s and swore by the 30-06 with 180s. I know a gent in Canada that like the 303 with 180s iirc and he had bagged several as well.

Personally? I’d be confident and comfortable with a 7-08 and 160s as a good solid minimum. My personal ideal choice would be my 308 with 180s @2700fps. I’d have zero hesitation with that combo for anything in N America

You don’t need a cannon...you need penetration and shot placement as with any game animal. You will not impress a 1000lb bear with any amount of ft/lbs. I base this off of the opinions of the masters...like Phil above and my experience on heavy game though no brown bears

You don't read very well.

A good reader would notice his own virtue signaling.

Thought it that or the pesky reading comprehension. 😉

I comprehend the fact just fine, that you have added nothing to this thread.

So you reporting an anonymous outfitter's opinion is worthy, while adding your own silly no-experience opinion, yet a resident's opinion is not. Even though the resident has hunted them and intends to in the future?

I believe that is special.

And Clydesdale is just an idiot...

That don’t mean what you think it means.

Pass throughs on a brown bear from a 9x19 LOL. Not something I hope I ever have to worry about. Way to stay focused and keep your clients safe.

You didn't inquire what his 9 mm was stoked with...

DF

When I go to AK after the BIG bears, I'll pack what the pros use: a subcompact 9mm. Should git 'er done.

IIRC, Phil has stated he used hardcast lead bullets.

While it can be done with a 9mm, my rifle of choice when guiding is a 458 Win .
So you can read between the lines !

It means exactly what I think it means. You passively aggressively insulting people, because they have an opinion and are not from Alaska. Simply pointing it out. .

Well put CRS and we've heard the same before. M B

Nothing passive/aggressive about it. It was, and still is a fact. You don't have to agree, but that doesn't make it wrong.

Would you take Africa advice from someone that's never been and can't tell a kudu from an impala?

458 So cool you are doing the big Nan re-creation. Please post photos. I was not aware he went through six stocks, his book mentioned three. I would love to see photos of the original, the repro and the 358. I keep thinking about reaming my 375 to the Weatherby round but why mess with perfection?

In my previous post I meant the 9.3x62 I would skip the 9.3x64 and go straight to the 375 H&H.

Not from Alaska but spent two seasons guiding fly fisherman and some hunting. Came close to needing to shoot a bear about six times. When they are close enough to smell and are popping their jaws it's time to train whatever you've got on whatever is the most vital shot possible. Never had to shoot one but came close to needing new skivy's a couple of times.

Well I have had a close encounter with two grizzlies in my life, my 375 H&H did not look too big for hunting anymore, it seemed a tad big for the moose I was hunting, but not so much when facing the big bears.
Luckily we both went our separate ways.

The net seems like a great place to discover
what will keep your chosen guide happy.. 😂

"Simply pointing it out" is extremely funny in light of :
Originally Posted by ironbender
Thought it that or the pesky reading comprehension. 😉


I comprehend the fact just fine, that you have added nothing to this thread. grin

You are accusing him of adding nothing when you are doing nothing but sucking up and virtue signaling with nothing. Like nothing... nada, zip, zero...

There is nothing P-A about Alaskans. If you are being an idiot, plan on being called on it. IB is probably a couple orders of magnitude more gentle in that regard than most. He simply pointed out the numbers of people making inane (I am being kind including yours in the group) comments when someone of Phil's experience makes a comment and they have to climb aboard as if it were their place to expound. I have guided for brown bears, shot brown bears, helped friends find and kill brown bears and generally have a lot of experience around them. When Phil talks, I shut up and listen.

Seeing you virtue signalling as if you had a clue is not really funny. It is sad. But then you have to go into into dry hump mode and call out IB for a very innocuous comment... it is all about a bunch of barnyard chickens fighting over the biggest grub sneezed up by the lead billy goat. And IB is just watching...

More interested in waterbuck... how can you tell them?

Really?

Boys, boys, boys...

Did I ever tell you, possibly several times, about the time I bounced binoculars off a griz at 3 yards... ?

Hell, that ought to cap Phil's yarn with his 9mm. At least I was "green" - not to mention unarmed ( read stupid) - the rifle being yards away in the boat, and I didn't kill the poor cuddly thing. Or she, me.

I recently disposed of the second pair of bottom-blown-out shorts.

I wasn't even wearing one of them at the time.

Sorry, I can't remember if they were Hanes or Fruit of the Loom....

Placement isn't everything, just most of it.

+++++. exactly !!!

Never hunted grizzly or Alaska, have only killed one bear and that was a black bear shot in his left eye at less than 20 yards while bow hunting elk, were I to go after big bears and recoil was a concern, I'd load one of my '06's like a baby 375 H&H mag, that load would be an easy to shoot 220gr Partition at 2500 fps, I would be surprised if any bear could contain that load.

You did notice that I have not posted anything about "cartridges" after Phil posted.

Now that the OP has picked a rifle, my advice would be to shoot it a bunch and become very comfortable/familiar with it.

BTW, I have been to Africa and Alaska both more than once.

I don't know about coastal grizzlies but I live with the mountain type. I get these bears around the farm and they track up to the house if we leave dog food out at night. I keep a Browning BLR/ .450 fairly handy as a portable noise maker , yeah it bucks pretty hard...oh well. They like elk calves, chickens and dog food ...in that order....and love rancid carcasses of all flavors.
The .450 is my choice up close, 350 grain Barnes original.

There is no substitute for being competent and comfortable with whatever rifle, or handgun or binoculars you choose to defend yourself with.

Phil have you shot the 375 Weatherby yet.? MB

Not this one

Here is my bear rifle for what its worth ,375 H&H pre 64 action 22" bbl. My peep sight never fogged up once Huntable Brown bears are a 15 minute boat ride away for me here. Shooting 260gr Partitions. with 67gr of 4064, Thats all i can handle accurately and repeatedly out of the rifle, I am 6' 4" 245lbs. If your eyes close before the firing pin hits the primer go to a smaller caliber. Recoil struggle is real
'

Physics is a bitch!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes, a person has to know their recoil limit.

The 375 I own is a joy to shoot. Have shot over a 100 rounds in practice muItiple times at the range. Took 300gr TSX's at 2500 fps to Africa as a back up to my 404 J for buffalo. Even though I felt a 270gr would be just fine, and had a great shooting load at 2800fps. PH recommended 300gr. Pretty significant trip in both time and money. Why would I not listen to him? Did not matter to me one bit.

He did prefer an over 40 caliber for buffalo though.

If I would ever take my 375 on a big bear hunt, I would just switch to a NAB. But I would prefer to take my 338-06, as I stated previously.

Phil, in your experience. Would you say bears are physically softer, and it is better to use bonded or partition style bullets over the tougher monometal bullets? Similar to buffalo vs cats in Africa. I know this is nitpicking, as either style of bullet in the right place will work

I’ve used a 375HH and have no complaints with it. People can bicker all day long but in then end people have found a way to make most anything work, I chose the 375HH and have no plans to change.

30-06, 180-200 grain
NW Black bears are not really all that big.

A guided hunt is not that critical regarding caliber: bring whatever.

Step one: guide buzzes around natural feed troughs in bush plane(salmon stream choked with spawning salmon).

Step 2:
Guide drops down closest to area with most bear density

Step 3:
With almost no walking involved, guide puts tender footed city slicker on big scary bear.

Step 4:
City slicker shoots big scary bear (clean kill is optional)

Step 5
Guide mops up mess keeps mouth shut, many thousand of dollars involved.

Step 6
Take picture so that it makes big scary bear look even more bigger and scary.

Step 7
City slicker goes home, tells war story about big scary bear, if gun writer: writes three dozen worthless articles about how amazing all his gear is.

Step 8
Repeat.

What ah fkn joke-show. I could never do it.

Mainer in Alaska
I wish you had a different attitude about hunting Alaska. I have read your stuff since you joined. I would love.to hunt with you. Maybe someday.

Me either !

How many like that have you actually been on ? Or witnessed ?

Having read the "story", and knowing a bit about your background, I'd say that your "guest" were exceedingly lucky that you were able to manage the situation to achieve the best possible outcome !!! I expect time slowed down for you, at least a bit, as the event was happening. (Love your writing) Woody

What do you mean, "There is no Santa Claus"...?!!!

In situations like that time does take on a different realm. Unfortunately so does your reaction time and fine motor skills.
But you are right that there was a certain amount of luck involved. One of the primary ones being the two teenage daughters had decided to stay in camp with my daughter. The fact that both parents saw what was happening and simply grabbed each other and fell back without a sound was a blessing .

Interesting comment that. Do you believe that bear would have killed you all had you not stopped it?

Excellent choice and is what I would use. I've never shot anything heavier than a Speer 270 grain hot core in my 9.3 but I like your choice of 286 grain Partitions.

I don't have a .375 H&H but always liked it, and would own one if I had need. Carried a pre 64 M70 on FS Trail Crew many decades ago.

Helluva porcupine gun at 2am on tent cabin chewing SOBs that then run up a tree. Sometimes 2 or 3 a night.

The rain of quills is quite impressive.

I'm 150 # and can handle the recoil. Less mass resistance than you big bastids. Go with the flow. But then, I never shot it off the bench... probably where a lot of shooters hone their flinch.

Says the guy that takes "stunt shots" at moose....

That is hilarious!

las you better not look up

If you put a blanket over your head does it turn into a quilt?

I'd like to hunt them with a .300 Win Mag

Says the guy with "stunted growth".

When I share a hunt story, take from it what you will. I guess we can all do that:

Anyhow, next time you're spotting caribou from the Denali highway, don't forget to take the safety off on the ole 300 saum.......

Least I knew where he was, rather than your stunts of frolicking around in the brush unsure where the hell your quarry was(after you took the shot).

Lastly, if a puny little cartridge rocks yah that bad, where you loose track of your game, drop down in caliber.


Like Elmer Keith once said: "I prefer to do my hunting before I do my shooting"

I carried one for back-up for years... it works just fine.

Good to know because I don't like the bigger stuff anymore.

Last time I was goofing off with a recoil calculator I discovered my 9.3x62 and 286s loaded to modern pressures is right on par with the .300 win shooting 200s.

minimum in my mind would be a 338win mag shooting a heavy for caliber Barnes TTSX or Nosler Partition. But if I was buying a new rifle for a coastal brown bear hunt it would be a 375 h&h mag. Sure a 30/06 or 30cal magnum will kill a bear, but if things go south, I want a round that will not only kill a bear, but stop it in the event of a charge. I often hear that you should bring a 270, 30/06, 300win mag, if thats what you shoot well, Im telling you you are going after an apex predator that weighs upwards of 1500 pounds, learn to shoot a rifle that is adeqaute for the job at hand. No, I have never hunted or seen a brown bear

Aceman2101,

Thanks for repeating every cliche about shooting brown bears (or any other big, dangerous game), along with listing your experience.

Would also like to know how you know brown bears weigh "upwards of 1500 pounds."

Also would like to see YOUR list of rifles that will "stop it in the event of a charge."

I have never felt uncomfortable toting my .300 H&H around in big bear country, and certainly would have felt just as comfortable with a .270 Win or the like, even if I was actually hunting them.

I think I've only seen 10 or so coastal brown bears (NOT interior grizzlies: I've been around plenty of those), including one on Afognak that was a bit too close for comfort as he wanted my buddy's elk carcass more than we did.

Their toughness when shot I have no idea about, but concerning a charge they're nowhere near as aggressive as the interior bears (at least when not wounded), in my somewhat limited experience with them. I'd take Phil's advice and disregard everyone else's, if I were the OP.

You know before we had the internet and all it's unqualified experts we just had to listen to gun writers and make our own choice or trust our deer rifles and maybe some heavier bullets. Well damn I suppose half the well heeled here would have got recycled thru a bears ass*ole. What a relief we have the info highway as entertainment anyway. MB

I've hunted in brown bear country with a 243 more than any other rifle. Just have to keep your wits about you.

That's always your best defense!
Would be nice if adhered to on these threads also.

I have killed a lot of Kodiak deer with a Roberts and hunted with several guys using the 223.

There you go again! Expecting too much!

You've been part of way more brown bear harvests than me! I only have one. I hit mine in the back of the head with a 7mag. Only bear I ever killed but it never went an inch.

I deer hunt in the same area with a 243 and for some reason I feel safe. I walked up on a sleeping brown bear with my 243. I'm talking feet away. The wind in that area always blows a certain direction and it never knew I was there. I've been charged too, 20yds down to about 2 in a matter of a second. Had to wash those pants and I am not afraid to say it. Most of the time they run away

I've shot brown bears with 12 gauge, .375 H&H, and 9.3x62. I cannot tell the difference between the .375 and the 9.3 on them. I never intend to use a 12 ga. again! I used foster slugs, which was an utter disaster. Thankfully there was another guy with me using a .375 who really solved the problem. I've seen them sorted out with 12 ga. Brennekes, which would be the only shotgun load I'd consider even half suitable, but even then a proper rifle is the better option based on my experiences and observations. I do most of my deer hunting with the 9.3 just because it works so well on both bears and deer.

Little sensitive I see there Mainer....

Carry on

I'm just joshing yah, Josh.

FWIW, ol’ Klik on here posted some time back about a smallish brown bear he had to kill at their fish camp “summer cabin”.
He had poor performance from brennekes with one or more deforming badly. IIRC, finally had to use a “non-bear” cartridge as a finisher.

Iron,
I can't make sense of this brenneke slug stuff. On paper, they are the maximum. They are the ultimate 12 gauge fodder. I witnessed this:

Individual who only owned a 12 gauge pump, shoots massive bull moose square in the neck at about 35-40 yds away with brenneke black magic. Bull drops motionless, guy sets down shotgun. Bull jumps up and bolts like a sprint racer. 2 HOURS later, guy catches up to bedded down bull. Finished off with a handgun as bull slowly rises to continue his death march.

Iron, I have skiny Indian fingers. That slug hit four fingers-width from behind the ear. So about 3.5 inches lower than behind ear. Blood everywhere, slug left clean nickel sized exit hole.

Two things happened immediately: I lost faith in neck shots on large game.

I began to question the mighty brenneke.

I will say this: I don't understand what the heck happened there.

Was the spirit and willpower of the big bull so tough, that he fought for his life?

Was it more mechanical, in that the slug missed an artery or bone?

Now that the experts have spoken about the appropriateness of each cartridge...

My experience shooting a 8.5lb .375 H&H off the bench is that it is quite a bit nicer than many "smaller" rifles. I stepped "down" to that from the 338 RUM, as mine was both unwieldy (26" barrel), a punishment on the shoulder, and LOUD. But dang, did it shoot.

The 20" barreled 375 is much more fun to shoot all around, but especially multiple shots off the bench and any shots from prone. I've done 100 round range sessions and they were not nearly as painful as the same thing with a lightweight 280AI. Even compared to a standard weight 300WIN, I don't think the recoil is nearly as sharp on the 375. I can't say how effective it is on coastal brown bears, but I can say that recoil for a standard weight 375 H&H with a good stock and recoil pad is nothing to be scared of.

This makes sense to me. If you place your shot(s) where they need to go, you can shut down a big bear right there and then. If you don't, bigger isn't likely going to be any better.

The paper thing, is the thing.

When I carried a 12 .ca, I loaded Brenneke slugs. Never have had to use them though. The on-paper can give a false sense of safety with brownies. Tbat waz my point of trying to relate Klik's experience.

I've now am of the opinion that (almost) any rifle is better than a shotgun, (ir)regardless of the paper. Even if in a glossy-paged magazine!

Curious what you found when cutting up that bull? No spine hit?

Big difference in interior brown bear and coastal. The interior bear may only go 5-600 lbs even for a big one. A coastal brownie may go 800 or so and a very exceptional Kodiak or ABC bear might go 800-1,000 lbs. Most bear are not weighed so part of of the discrepancy in reported weights.

I see bears every year that weigh well over 1000 pounds and have killed some that I know weighed lose to 1500 pounds. My son has flown for the federal polar bear studies for the past 7-8 years and they have scales on the helicopter to actually weigh the bears. They also have weighed bears between 1400 & 1500 and my son claims the biggest bears we take are every bit as large.

We did kill one good sized boar in the fall that had been weighed by F&G that spring at the den . 982 pounds and after a spring and summer of eating they easily gain 300-400 pounds. And that one was nowhere near the largest

Occasionally grizzly bears get into the 1000lb range even in the lower 48. Unusual but it does happen.

Phil, What do your son and daughter carry when they guide for brown bears?

Art Young and Saxton Pope supposedly tag teamed a 1000 pound grizzly in Wyoming in the 1920s. I doubt they had certified scales with them, so a guy will just have to make up their own mind as to how accurate that estimate was.

There was a grizzly in Lincoln, MT that was the largest bear in Montana. It was killed on Highway 200 just outside Lincoln. It weighed 830 lbs. It was mounted and put in the Lincoln Post Office for a time. I don't know where it is now.

Tia started out with a 338 Win, then fell in love with the 375 Ruger when it first cam out. Then when it jammed on her during a bear charge, due to the first edition of the Hornady DGX with the wide, flat meplat, she lost some faith in it and wanted an Echols rifle in 416. So she now uses the 416 for virtually everything .

Taj loves the 375 Ruger but also carries his 475 Turnbull and a Ruger 35 Whelen on some hunts

I have to say I lost a bit of excitement about the thing once I actually handled one of the Hawkeye .375 Rugers. Smooth feeding was not one of it's virtues, especially in comparison to most H&Hs I've handled. This was years ago, so likely with those early rounds. It was also before I heard of your trick of ever so slightly dremeling the start of the chamber.

Phil, from what I gathered from her story, you loaded that ammunition that jammed up on her during the bear charge, correct?

I don't blame her for writing off the entirety of that sloppy jalopy.

Having owned one of the 375 rugers, hornady components would be my last choice.

With that 416 rem, she has unlimited choice in other brands of brass or loaded ammo. A serious gun, proof-checked by a serious man (Echols). That was an indepenedentaly smart choice on her behalf. A choice that will further her safety, and the safety of her clients.

Never hunted bear, or plan to ever hunt a bear. But this is an excellent thread.

My brother and I had a very near miss with a Grizzly this spring. He was packing a 243. I happened to have a 375 Ruger. After we had a minute to reflect, he looked at his rifle and said “well that was a dumb choice”. I replied “just make sure you hit him right”. He replied “missing is what worries me”.

well the next time I get to go I will pass on my 375h& and my 9.2x64 and go straight to my old fateful 3006. should work just fine,

I walked up to a sleeping brown bear, got maybe 20ft from it as I came to the top of a hill. Luckily the wind was in my face so the bear never woke up. I backed out of there real quiet like and swung way around where it was. I was puckered for sure!

No, those were factory loads she was carrying. I have enough sense lot to load wide, flat nosed bullets with steel jackets in any bolt action !
I had a heart to heart talk with Hornady at the next SCI show and I am sure so did many others. The new DGX have a much smaller meplat with a rounded nose and work superbly

I was glassing for caribou up in the Talkeetnas 3-4 years ago when I caught movement in the corner of my eye, outside of the ocular lens. 20 yards away was what I thought was a small cub grizzly. My britches got smelly and heavy as I frantically looked around for momma. I then looked back at the cub, and it ended up being a big porcupine with that grizzled look and color scheme they have, especially when viewing them from the back.

I'm still traumatized

Had a bear stand up and woof/snap at me at 20 yds on kodiak. Really didn’t want to have to shoot it as I had flown in that same day. All ended well but had a few moments of oh crap.

I have a kodiak tag for the spring. Probably will be 300win and a mono.

Go with Phil's choice the 220 grain Partition. But any stout bullet of 200+ grains would be good.

Probably 180 or 168

A 168ttsx would do the job just fine. Its the only bullet I use anymore out of my 300saum. Never recovered one. Killed goats and deer with it. Bears are tougher but those bullets will penetrate.

I've seen more than a couple tip over to a 300 win mag. What rifle you using?

Which tag did ya draw? PM if its a secret..

Calvin is a fisherman, it's all a secret!

I also read that first iteration of the DGX had a horrible track record of just coming apart. What i read on the world wide internet, the final straw Steve Hornady used them in Africa with dismal results. It was back to the drawing board..

A heart to heart. Sounds a little bit like an understatement. Did this heart to heart happen in the woodshed.

.300--.338,,,,why dick around with less,....that's the way I see it.

I don't know if he was BSing me or not, but once had a guy who said he guided on Kodiak and carried a Merkel 470NE. 2 shots, one after another would be pretty serious stopping power.

Joe Want carried double rifle I forget what caliber maybe Phil can chime in I want to say it was a 500 something

So the .375 factory rounds she carried for
the DG hunt were tested/cycled through
that specific Ruger rifle prior and everything
worked fine?




Whats important is what specific ammunition
D'Arcy Proof-checked the Legend with.

Not sure if he guarantees a rifle to feed anything
and everything off the shelf, or what concoction
one might later roll for themselves.

One thing I would trust is D'Arcy telling me
he tested specific wide meplat rounds
and saying they are 'good to go' .

I recall he built a .505 magnum mauser
and he showed where the leading edge
of FN solid was below the start of the
feed ramp...😂

Tell D’Arcy a rifle has to feed empties. 😂

Uganik Lake. Db 254. Know anything about that area?

Rem 700 xcr2 in 300wm.

Beautiful area. Hunted it for deer years ago--and saw lots of fresh bear sign!

I’ve killed one, with a bow.
If I were rifle hunting, I’d use a 7MM mag, 300win, or 338 win, and heavier bullets.

I haven't hunted Uganik, most of my time on Kodiak has been spent further south. I do know its a good place to NOT shoot a dink! I've had a couple friends work for Sam and they consistently took great bears. If you need a spotter I might come out of retirement. Only need some pilot bread and a couple of mountain houses as a payment

PM sent.

Laughing! Which reminds me. I plan on hunting with empties this fall. I should check that they function in the rifle properly.

I like the idea of a .35 Whelen. in a Remington 700 Classic I I may. Scarcer than Brown Bears though.

D'Arcy's normal comment is "why would anyone want to feed empties?"

Just out of curiosity, does anyone think the 7mm Rem Mag acceptable for brown bear? It's generally not mentioned in brown bear discussions, nut the 30-06 gets a fair amount of consideration. I tend to think anything the 30-06 can do, the 7mm Rem Mag can do a little better since it drives higher SD bullets faster, along with generally higher BC values. A good 175 should penetrate better than a 30 cal 180gr version of a given bullet style. Perhaps there's something to be said for bullet diamter, and a 30 cal being a better choice? I'd like to do on a hunt with Phil in a few years, and am just thinking what I might take for my rifle...7mm rem Mag, or set up a 30-06 or 300 Win Mag. I'm probably overthinking it, but that's what rifle loonies do lol

I'd bet there has been more than a few big bears shot with the various 7mm magnums. Probably with many less powerful outfits too. Goes back to what you have, are very familiar with and shoot well. Placing an adequate bullet in the right spot. But why take a minimal diameter cartridge for a really big animal that tends to get pissed off when shot. I have more than a few magnum rifles from 264 to 375 as I've already said my consideration would start at 30 caliber for self. Sometimes in life you have to use what tools you have when it something's needs to be done rfn. This bear hunt has all the time the op needs to plan and select the right tools to use and he has already said a m700 Rem 300 win mag ,his question was for the bullet recommendation. I've used 700 remingtons all my life as well as others, I am surprised the crf fanboys aren't heaping it on him. MB

LOLOLOL. I'm in the surprise boat with you.

458 answered this somewhere in the first three pages of responses, he said yes very good. Bob Hagel had a story about an incident where he thought the 300 magnum with 200 grain Bitter Roots was better. He was comparing the 200 BBC to a 175 Nosler I believe, so if they both had the same make bullets I think they would be closer. Bitter Roots open up much more than partitions while still penetrating almost as well. He was making a case that the 300 was a better Alaskan cartridge than the 7mm but then his favorite was the 340 Weatherby so a single incident to re-enforce his personal bias. But then he had hundreds more experiences to do so as well.

[/quote]

D'Arcy's normal comment is "why would anyone want to feed empties?" [/quote]

This sounds like what a Zeiss rep said to a gun writer who said the earlier Zeiss scopes wouldn't pass the hot water leak test. " Vie vood anyone vant to do that?"

I know it!

What do you figure the minimum magnification a hunter should use for taking coastal bears when using binocs? I'm guessing 8x, but placement is everything. If you can handle 10x, then maybe that will give you an edge.

:-)

LAS is the only one I know using "bino pills" for brown bears.

8X worked. No doubt I'd choose 10x next time. But it was only a griz- not a brown. She was a mite confused, but not serious.

Now, for a bear that was serious.... I'd want at least an 9 X19....

Oh, and in hand.

That cased, empty-chambered .30-06 20 yards away just did not cut the mustard. (Not commenting about me)

Nor did stupid, but you gotta go with what's at hand.

No animals were harmed in this exercise, which would not have been the case with arms in hand. Them poor little orphan cubs...

Win- win.

I cannot recommend....

A poster case for lucky better than good - all around.

I think a 7MM running Berger VLDs is a bit better for a real hunt.

Just Sayin.

True- but Phil wasn't hunting, "just" defending otherwise clients If I understand this right.. With what he had to hand.


I personally have no experience with Berger VLD, but my impression is that there are several better choices available for this type hunt.

Try to keep up.

Key word: proprietary.

So I am bit dense, Mike. Try to keep me up... it's a full time position, I promise you.

Is it the pay or the benefits he wants?

Hard to tell- he's illusive. ellusive?..JFC- you are the English major...

John,

Berger doesn’t make a 9mm handgun VLD?

They do, but you can only run them in the extended Glock mags.

Very true and duly noted.

What bullets might be best these days for a .348 Win?

About 30 years ago I loaded some with Hornady 200 FPs and Barnes 250 FNs... but I'd guess there's something better on the market nowadays? I tend to think heavier is likely better; wouldn't mind a wider meplat, assuming experiment shows reliable feeding...

I meant to experiment with gas-checked HCLs back then, too, but IIRC I never found a source.... and don't want to do any casting myself...

-Chris

Swift makes a 348 Aframe. That should be a great choice.

Looks like the A-Frame is only in 200-gr. Would think maybe more better than the earlier Hornady FPs, but I wonder if the 250-gr Woodleigh Weldcore wouldn't be better for thread topic?

I've thought HCLs would be decent, too, but maybe only if even heavier -- 275? 300? -- given they'd likely be at lower velocity anyway. No experience with HCLs in rifles, though.

And no experience with coastal brown bears, for that matter.

I wonder if T.R. might have thought an M71 chambered for something like .411 (??) Winchester -- same case as the .348 -- was the bee's knees if Winchester had intro'd both at the same time (and if T.R. was still alive then), perhaps as a legit successor to the 1895 .405 for those who didn't gravitate toward a Model 70. I don't have lots of hands-on with the M1895, but they've seemed kinda clunky compared to my M71.

-Chris

Mythical situation: Hiking out for a bear watch in coastal AK or Kodiak Island, etc... and carrying a Winchester Model 71 in the original .348 Winchester chambering. IOW, not hunting, just thinking to keep Br'er Bear from chewing parts off attendant personages.

Which bullets better, and (ideally) why: Woodleigh 250-grain Weldcore, Hawk 270-grain or 250-grain FP, Barnes Original 250-grain "Solid", or even the Swift 200-grain A-Frame?

(I've already assumed the original Winchester 200-grain Silvertips, the original Hornady 200-grain FPs, and the Hornady 200-grain FTXs would be non-starters in this role.)

-Chris

Now, here's a sheep rifle...

Bet it'll top 12#'s.

Posted this one before.

DF

Bears move fast and have to be anchored. I have shot bull elk with an original 1895 in.405 WCF. Its a good cartridge
and many bears have been killed with it. I also have a few Model 71s, including a 348 Ack Imp which will handle a 270 gr Hawk bullet. And a 450 AK on a pre-war Deluxe Model 71.
But for coastal big brownies, its a early M-70 in 338WM-375 H&H . Backed up by a 450 Alaskan. Always a good idea to bring two rifles
on a guided hunt up here.

If your rifle goes south-where is the closest gunsmith? Another heavy rifle is the answer.
If you are fishing and an irritated brownie shows up in the alders and its getting late on the trail,
I would prefer a 450 AK with 400 gr bullets and fast reloading of a smooth Winchester M-71 any day. Maybe even a 50-100-450 1886 Winchester if he squares over 10 ft. and is all teeth and claws- & mad.

Bolt actions are SLOW for repeat shots compared to a slick Winchester or Marlin lever action rifle.

Yeah, from reading, I get the .45+ thing. I have a .338 WM Model 70, too... but imagine the slowest person you know with a bolt-rifle... and I'm twice as slow.

If I were buying for an actual bear hunt, I'd probably look at one of the Browning M71s... and then maybe have some fun picking a cartridge to rebarrel to. But that's not gonna happen; I never really had much desire to go shoot a bear in the first place...

And my Winchester Model 71 is a family pass-down, '37 serial number, all the "DeLuxe" features, etc... so I don't want to modify it.

Are you saying the Hawk 270 would be better than the Woodleigh bonded 250, for a "bear watch" M71/.348?

-Chris

That is a good question. Its nip and tuck, but I have used most available 348 bullets including the defunct North Forks.

Would probably go with the bonded core Woodleighs or AK Kodiak 250s . But -given that you want to keep the rifle
unaltered in the original 348 WCF, I would look at the Swift A-frames. They are like a bonded core Nosler.
The weight of 200 grs is good, I believe. If you use a Premium quality bullet, you don't necessarily need
a 348 Ack IMP. Mine worked really well on AK moose. I would carry it as a bear protective measure.

Different story if you are hunting a coastal brownie in the alders. A Model 71 or 1886
is really a point blank to 125 yard rifle. Range is further, but the FP bullets shed velocity really fast.
You need tough bullets that hang together.

Two rifles on a hunt. One rifle, a 348 with the best bullets- on a hiking or fishing trip in AK. (A 30-30 or a 243 will not get it done.)

Fair enough, thanks. I've got the Wodleigh 250ss, and I have some A-Frame 200s inbound... plus my older supply of Hornady FPs and Barnes 250 Solids.... and some FTX inbound. Sounds like no huge need to order any Hawk 270s, at least for the time being.

This will likely turn into a very slow handloading project: Check sights (mostly for point of aim) with factory 200-grain Silvertips, call it good, think about the others and work up loads at my leisure.

I want to make sure I can reliably slay one of our paper targets at 100 yards... given we don't have too many great bears here on the Chesapeake. Might go on a hog hunt sometime, though. I'd guess almost anything out of a .348 would work for that.

-Chris

After another few nano-seconds worth of thought... and a quick glance at citations in the J.J. Donnelly manual... if I were really going to try an actual real-life bear hunt, I bet I could talk myself into a Browning M71 rechambered to .416-348. Not an AI version; just the original .348 necked up to accept 400-grain .416 bullets. LOTS of those to choose from.

I'm thinking the more original shape may better retain the original's smooth feeding, and there's at least one thread around here where somebody made up a .416-348 AI and reported afterwards that it doesn't feed as smoothly as he'd hoped... afterwards thinking the original could have been better.

So... M71 with aperture sights... maybe even a scout mount for a choice of IER scopes and/or RDS options. (I see Browning is offering an optional scout mount for their BLRs; maybe the concept could work here, too.)

Anyway, I could do a LOT to keep from learning how to run a bolt rifle very well. I've actually been practicing that recently; not good. Completely unnatural after almost 60 years of hunting and later also competing with lever rifles.

-Chris

The 375 H&H will get you there just fine with a lot less fuss...

And that'd most likely be in a bolt action? I may have mentioned I could probably walk to Alaska and back faster than cycling a bolt rifle... Molasses got nuthin' on me.

And I've already got a .338WM Model 70... so I could continue to be just as slow with that as with a new .375.

Actually, for less fuss, I guess a Marlin or Henry .45-70 lever rifle could be OK, too... just not as attractive to me as a (another) Model 71.

-Chris

I think you overestimate the need for ultimate speed. Make the first shot properly and it reduces the need for each and every shot that follows.

I'm certainly willing to believe you're correct... given no bear experience and only armchair analysis.

I'm not thinking about hunting bears, though; instead I'm thinking about protection from being hunted. I'm not entirely used to making that "first shot properly" on teeth approaching me at freight-train speed.

-Chris

It's a fast learning curve. "Fast" in both (three?) senses.

Heh... I think not much attraction to finishing second, either.

-Chris

I barreled a handful of BLRs in 375 Ruger. Did one up in 416 Ruger too.
Built a bunch of custom 86s and 71s in 450 and 50 AK

A gadzillion Marlin 95s, a bunch of them in 50AK

Could get a magazine full of .510” 450gr Aframes or Kodiaks in the air as fast as most guys could 30/30s. Still when it came time for hunting and guiding I always reached for a good bolt rifle with a good scope. Most times a 35 Whelen stuffed with 250s, occasionally a 458 pushing 350s at 2550.

I like lever rifles don’t get me wrong. But when the chips, or in a guided hunter’s case the $$$, are down I want things as bombproof as possible. Leverguns inherently aren’t.

I'm interested in these statements, and I'd like you to elaborate. What do you mean by "Leverguns inherently aren't [bombproof]"?

I always felt like a stainless Remington 7600 "Guide Gun" in 338 Fed would make a good closer quarters brown bear rifle.

They have an extra hole, the loading gate, for “stuff” to get in, IE dirt, mud, leaves and whatnot. And are not as easily field stripable in the case of the Marlin and nearly not field stripable in the case of the 1886/71.

The entire repeating function of all centerfire Marlin lever aside from the Levermatics in 30 Carbine and 256Win rely on a part called the carrier rocker or dog to function. This tiny part is about 3/32 thick with a built in stress riser in the bottom of the hook. One round hung up on a feed ramp or halfway out of the mag tube when the follower seizes because the tube has sand in it and that hook will pop right off the carrier. Leaving you with a jammed rifle that will be a slow loading single shot when you get the stoppage cleared. I bet I replaced a couple hundred of those dogs over the years. The extractor is a little square of sheet metal about 3/16x3/16x.020” brazed onto a piece of spring steel. It generally makes contact with a spot on the case rim about 1/16”wide.

Talked with lots of guys who were dead set on “reliable” iron sights on their hunting rifles. I would guess I replaced 2 dozen front blades every fall and 50 of the factory Marlin rear leaves a year. Can’t remember the last time I heard of someone with a decent quality scope of somewhat recent manufacture fogging up. I personally broke the front sight off of my rifle 3 times during my decade hunting AK, some broken when I took a fall or a rifle slid off where it was leaning. Never had a scope lose zero or fog during that time, including hunting in coastal rainforest and once taking a tumble almost 30 feet off a rock face and landing on my scope with the rifle slung across my back.

There’s a reason no military used lever rifles in any meaningful capacity. They just aren’t as tough as a good bolt rifle as well as being more difficult to keep running in the field under poor conditions.

Thanks for the information. I can see what you mean. I've certainly had my share of functional issues with lever actions in hunting scenarios that caused problems at exactly the wrong time.

Don’t get me wrong, I still have Marlin, Winchester, and Savage centerfire lever rifles and I shoot and hunt with all of them. I just wouldn’t grab one for a big $$ guided hunt where conditions are likely to be crap.

I know exactly what you mean. I have several, yet I still reach for bolt guns far more often, and for a variety of reasons, when it's time to get serious.

Up front, I've never hunted coastal brown bear or even been to Alaska, but what I would do, first, is talk to the guide about how you'll be hunting and what is needed. On the other hand, if you have a particular rifle you just "have" to use, something you have your heart set on, talk to the guide well in advance so he can tailor the hunt a bit to give you the best chance of success with your selection.

Tom

Exactly!

But in my experience anybody who really practices with a bolt-action can run them just as fast (or faster) that a lever-gun shot by a relative amateur. I know this partly due to taking part in a fast-shooting contest a few years ago, three shots offhand, at three targets placed at 50 yards and the next two closer. The contestants were guides, average hunters, and more than one gun writer. They could use any of a selection of rifles, which included a lever-action .450 Marlin. Many chose the lever. I won with a bolt-action I'd never shot before, in some medium-magnum cartridge I don't recall. I'd bet Phil Shoemaker would have beaten my time with his .458 "Old Ugly."

Bolt's are all I shoot, have been for a lot of years. Spent a couple years living in Alaska and the gun I carried for everything was a Rem 660 in 308 20" barrel. Loaded it with 200gr Hornady's. 165 and 180's were more accurate but I figured if needed the 200gr was a better choice for penetration. I figured super accurate was wasted up there, what was needed was hunting accuracy and more important was the bullet. That 660 with 165 and 180's was well under an inch at 100yds and just over 1 1/2" at 100yds with the 200gr bullet. Had it with me on the Portage River fishing and found a bear track the size of a dinner plate. Didn't bother me much with that rifle along. Never had a run in with an animal I needed it on so maybe I was fooling myself but I doubt anything would have done well with a well placed 200gr 30 cal bullet at a reasonable range or even closer. My son has that rifle now, has great handling qualities, important I think.

All you guys are bursting my balloon. From reading, I've thought all this time that bolt-action rifles are only fast in Africa and levers not really useful (except for maybe Teddy and Kermit), whereas in Alaska bolt rifles are slow and lever rifles are faster. Thought maybe 70% of the original Model 71s -- and maybe 90% of the newer Browning and Winchester recreations -- all went to Alaska for make-over into .450s and 500s and so forth. And reading has suggested bolt-actions are only recommended for "hunters" (not the actual guides) -- and the real guides (except for Phil, I guess) always used lever rifles.

Oh, dear. I'm having a paradigm shift! Gak! Now what am I to do??



Learn to run a bolt rifle. Hmmm... what a thought.

OK, so I quoted John for a reason. I can run a smaller-cartridge lever rifle (.44-40 or .44 RM) about 5 times faster than a short-action bolt. That's an educated guess, without benefit of timer, but it's also based on about 25-30-years of CAS competition... where I have actually (but rarely) won some matches from time to time.

(That same competition does indeed highlight some lever-action weaknesses, but usually only over time, and after high round counts. I dunno how many thousands of rounds I've put through a Marlin 1894. I have fewer rounds through the Win 73 repro, no faults discovered yet... but that's with maybe only a thousand rounds or slightly less.)

But then all that said... I haven't tried seriously timing myself with the levers I've usually used for hunting, a .308 BLR 81 in Germany (a little clunky) and a .300 Savage M99 (less so, I think) here in the States. Using dummies with the M99 and with a Rem 700 Ti, and just guessing at whether each shot would have hit the (single) target, it feels like probably 3 times faster... and the M71 seems smoother than both of those others. That "test" (such as it is) also doesn't take recoil into account. (And the smaller competition rifles don't hardly recoil at all.)

And it feels like the .260 bolt is gonna hit me in the eye. I need to get over that.

I'll drag out the M70 and see how that goes...

Luckily I'm not at all serious about the idea of actually shooting a bear if I don't have to. And where we are, the turtles are much more common, anyway... no need for big guns on them!

-Chris

I suspect anyone with your round count and a CAS win or two could figure out a bolt.

Yeah... true. Probably just needs practice, more practice, and even more practice. Ah, well...

BTW, while examining my "inner hunter" (?) over these last cople weeks or so I notice I wouldn't have thought to take a lever rifle to Africa if I wanted to go there. I know it's not unheard of, not just for TR and Kermit, but also for Turnbull I think and even several folks here on the Fire... but I think I just gravitate more in the direction of writers in the vein of Finn Aagaard et al and bolt rifles when I think of Africa.

I think I'm weird.

-Chris

On an expensive, guided coastal brown bear hunt, and want to make the guide happy? Bring a medium bore you can shoot well. Because of ammo availability, I’d lean toward the .375 H&H or Ruger. It’s what I used on my grizzly this spring. Can you handle a .338 Win Mag? Bring it. Next would be .35 Whelen or 30-06 (which is my all purpose rifle). My evolving thoughts on the best cartridge for Alaska May be turning to the .35 Whelen. Your guide would probably be disappointed with the 30-06.

You need a solid scope, perhaps with detachable mounts, and back up iron sights - just like my Model 70, 1.75-6 Leupold, Talley mounts, and pop-up peep rear sight w/fiber optic front sight.

The ammo was Hornady 250 gr. GMX. One shot at 125 yds.

Congrats! Beauty.

The old gun fighter's axiom that "speed is fine, but accuracy is final" is also applicable to bear hunting.
I would be perfectly happy to have a hunter show up with a Ruger No 1 in 30-06 that he, or she, was comfortable with.

A pop up peep you say? Brockman's? How'd you get it to work with a variable?

I can tell you from experience that Marlin lever guns will freeze badly if you are in damp/soggy freezing weather for extended periods. The hammer will refuse to stay back, among other issues. This was not from rust--this was from snow and ice working their way into the action and freezing. If you have a wall tent and a wood stove and you can thaw the gun every night, this shouldn't be a problem though.

One other thing about your CAS rifles. I could run my short-stroke Uberti and Marlin 94 many times faster than even my tuned and slicked up 1895. I had worries about short stroking my 1895 because the throw was so long (and also longer than what I was used to). The throw was so long it really wasn't much faster than a bolt action. This might not be the case with your Winchester, though.

Once you shoot a bolt action enough you'll probably notice that you do a lot of the bolt manipulation under recoil anyway. So you are not actually losing that much productive shooting time. Again difference between CAS rounds and even a warm 30-06 load.

Final note about running a bolt action quickly. If a stock is even slightly too long for you and you have to reach at all for the bolt, the bolt manipulation will be several times slower. You can test this by removing your recoil pad and temporarily shortening your LOP and running the bolt that way.

Apparently very few members have read the entire thread, which contains a lot of useful info from some people who have actually seen a bunch of "coastal brown bears" killed (and have killed a few charging bears).

Always love this schidt, since it goes on and on and on....

As a result am going to suggest a .600 Nitro-Express double rifle as the absolute minimum for STOPPING a "coastal brown bear," no matter where it's hit. Which is obviously BS.

A bear may be dead but when his his adrenaline starts flowing the [bleep] hits the fan. Had a client kill one. We were standing around celebrating shooting the [bleep]. About 10 minutes later the mf comes alive and charges. Believe what you wish, I was there, some of them are just tough sob once their adrenaline starts flowing. They just don’t know they’re dead. Ain’t no such thing as too much gun. Keep shooting and shoot again. If your scared stay home. 😜

I've enjoyed this thread! Thanks all.

In grizzly camp, Brooks Range, the two guides had recently returned from Kodiak, guiding for the big bears. One had a battered Rem 700 in 375 H&H, with 260 gr Nosler Accubonds. The other a Sako, 338 Win mag with 225 gr Barnes TSX.

One of the hunters had a Browning bolt action, 7mm Rem Mag, 140 gr TSX, and I had my 30-06 Rem 700 with 200 gr Nosler Partitions.

Odd to me, no Mausers or Winchester 70's, or Rugers. Just an observation.

Before heading to Alaska for the grizzly hunt the guide and I had a great phone conversation about rifles. Learning that I'd already taken black bear, elk, mule deer & pronghorn with my 30-06, he was very comfortable with me using that rifle, as long as I used premium bullets, and specifically recommended the 200 grain Nosler. I've hunted mostly with Rem 700's since the mid 1970's, and have also shot some rifle competition, so can work the bolt pretty quickly.

The fellow with the 7mm made a terrific shot from prone at about 80 yards and his 6.5' bear sprinted a few yards and collapsed. Done. I watched that from a hill above camp, through my binos.

Seven days into the nine-day hunt, I was a little surprised when my 8' grizz popped out from behind a small tree at about 40 or 50 yards. I have to admit that it wasn't my best shooting. I remember my guide telling me "don't shoot it in the head." He was thinking potential record book grizzly, though it fell a little short of that. I was thinking that I very much wanted to put a Nosler in that bear's grape!

Didn't matter, 'cause I missed the first shot. Good grief. Bear altered course, still closing, but diagonally. I shot and broke the right front shoulder/upper leg. Bear down. Bear rolled. Bear got up. About that fast. Guide and I were both shooting now. Things were happening fast. It wasn't a charge, but things were happening fast. We were moving, bear was moving, bullets were flying. Several good shots, a couple of marginal ones, and my miss - and the bear was down.

It all happened really fast - yet I well remember the details like a slow-motion movie. I do own a couple of 375's and a 45/70 Marlin, but haven't hunted nearly as much with them as I have the 30-06, so I was glad that the 30-06 made the drive from Washington to Alaska with me, and was in my hands then, though I'm sure the bigger rifles would have worked fine, and might well have provided an advantage. Laughing here - I got some gentle ribbing that I hunted grizzly in Alaska with a push feed 30-06 Rem 700 in a walnut stock.

That bear hunt was a real big deal to me, and I picked up on a bit of info re bears & bear hunting. Even had a good chat with Phil well before the hunt.

So, not a big coastal bear, but perhaps of interest to folks reading the thread, or researching their choice of firearms and ammo.







Regards, Guy

My Winchester 95 in caliber .405 is the slickest feeding rifle I have ever owned. It even feeds upside down when fed slowly, (don't ask how I know). Even the great Winchester 71 and some of my bolt guns fail at that test. Would this ever matter? Probably not but I trust the 95 as the closest thing to controlled round feeding in a lever gun. With 300 grain Woodleighs it also kills stuff pretty well. If going for a lever I'd feel very comfortable with the 95.

I'd marginally rather have a 30-06 with 220 Partitions than a 7 Mag with 175's but those would be the minimum choices for me. I am not a bear hunter but I do hang out in the wilderness in the Yukon and my favourite 25-06 caribou rifle starts to feel pretty small when a bear comes by to check out the gut pile. Looking at the disposition paired with the bone and muscle mass I'd think a designated bear rifle would start at 9.3x62 and go up from there.

Cascade,

I’ve had a bait station every Spring with the exception of 2019 for the past 4 years. For two years, I actually ran the bait station with some co-workers, not a one of them had a Mauser style bolt action, everyone was push feed. One guy runs a Browning or Savage 338 WM, another a Mossberg 375 Ruger, and another guy I know runs a 300 WM Tikka T3X. I myself ran a Rem 700 .300 WM until this year as I ran a Ruger Hawkeye .338WM. Even the other hunters I have talked to that run bait stations all had a push feed with Remington 700’s being the most popular. While I always read on forums that Mauser or any other CRF rifles are preferred, I’ve yet to hunt with someone other than my neighbor and myself that use a CRF rifle here, regardless of what game they are pursuing.

I've been keeping up with the whole thread. I've had nothing to say because I've never even seen a Brown Bear. But I like reading about hunting them

Cascade,
Damn nice Bear! 👍

There is no way I would advocate the .600 NE! Because they make a .700NE on the same platform. Those bears are BIG.

Thanks! He's all I could ask for. Wonderful hide too.

Guy

Both good points. I know my M71 won't be as fast as a slicked up M73 or Marlin 1894.... just haven't tried to work it fast, recently to get a feel for comparison.

Ditto manipulation under recoil, way different from (even a relatively heavy) CAS competition round.

-Chris

This made me laugh out loud! Thanks las.

I guess out my ABPF (already been paid for) battery I would choose from my Rem721 300 H&H with 200 partitions or M98 338-06 with 210 partitions.......

Ask your guide what the minimum caliber should be. Guides have prejudices and some are reasonable.

I would use my .375. .375s have a reputation for lighter recoil than some lighter higher-velocity jobs, probably because recoil takes place while the bullet is in the barrel. Heavy and slow beats light and fast if the foot pounds of recoil are the same. Spreads the recoil over a longer time.

Bigger holes in the barrel are more impressive, maybe not to the bear but to the hunter.

As for push feed vs. CRF, every military rifle action developed since 1898 has utilized push-feed. They are reliable.

Yes, this thread has a bunch of good information.

As far as action type, I am simply bolt action trash. I have used bolt actions forever, and that is my choice.

Simply thinking of speed, a semi auto would be hands down the fastest, then a pump IMO. My Dad has used a Remington 760 in 270 Win since about 1970, his only big game rifle. I have seen/heard him work the action so fast on running critters that you would have thought it was a semi auto. I grew up shooting pump shotguns and can run rounds through pretty dang fast.

As far as lever actions, they have never grabbed a hold of me. Have had a few, BLR, Marlins, Winchesters. 22LR to 45-70. There is no way I could ever take one on an "important" hunt. I would certainly take a pump action if needed.

If not a bolt action, hand me a Rem 760/7600 in 30-06 or 35 Whelen and I am sure I could not only kill a bear, but be ready for follow up shots post haste,

What about the 1903 Springfield and 1917 Enfield ?
But you are correct that all the semi automatic military rifles are push feed. So we're the early military Mausers, until reports of rifles jamming due to human failures due to the high stress of combat. The CRF rifles came about for that reason and under some hunting conditions they are still preferable.

Hunted bears twice in SE Alaska some years ago. Cruised the bays and inlets plus walked into several areas. Outfitter was very adamant about calibers, bullets and scopes he wanted us to use. Nothing under 338, with heavy preference to 375 or 416. Bullets were to be soft points like Hornady or Woodleigh and scopes had to be very good in extremely low light. Swarovski or similar with thick reticles.

Slightly off topic, but Phil Shoemaker, would you consider a big coastal Brown Bear harder to put down and more dangerous, or a big African Cape Buffalo.

Wow, interesting reading. Not hard to tell the real experts from the guy who has never been or reads to many hunting magazines. I have never hunted these bears and know nothing about them but if I were going I would listen to guys like Phil Shoemaker and other guides. Having said that, for me personally I would buy a 375 H&H and spend an entire year shooting it. If I feel comfortable, I’d take it. If not probably a 300 win that I have great confidence in.. seems to me you have to be mentally comfortable no matter what as long as you can put your ego aside and actually shoot from all positions

Phil Shoemaker has posted many times that a 30-06 is perfectly adequate for big bears. Take your own advice and listen to Phil, you don't need to buy a 375

I've heard that someone killed a polar bear with a 22LR...

That has probably happened... but you may be confusing the story of the WR interior grizzly which an elderly Native woman killed with a 22LR.

Interesting thread, the more I think about how big, fast, and how tight the cover could/can be hunting these great bears, leaves me thinking hard about my 338 Win Mag and 250gr A-Frames or Partitions, no need for me to scrimp ; ]

I've actually been practicing running mine recently, partly due to this thread. Using snap caps for that, now. Haven't had it out for a number of years (er... decades) and I'm (re-?) discovering how smooth the Model 70 action is.

Way back then, I think the Barnes X bullets had just emerged and I heard recommendations to use their 210-grain (I think) X instead of a 250-grain Partition or similar. I of course thought that might be hogwash, being generally of the "Keith school" where bigger, heavier, and faster is always more good-er-er. These days, I reckon I could give a nod to the whole idea of reduced recoil, at least or especially for practice rounds. What to use for real? Hmmm... yep, A-Frames or Partitions... or maybe TTSXs... or...

-Chris

I'm getting too old for a grizzly hunt, I suppose. I think though I'd be carrying my 375 Whelen AI on a Mauser 98 action if I were to go. I sold my last 338. I might (probably not) take my pre-64 375 H&H AI.

But I recall the killing of the polar bear with a 22 LR was by a native gal - Eskimo if you will, not an interior grizzly bear.

I re-discovered the same this past Spring. I'd forgotten how consistently smooth Model 70's are. I was shooting live ammo. It was a good, confidence-building feeling.

This is a link to the actual story about the World Record grizzly bear being shot by an elderly Native woman, with a 22lr.

https://www.ammoland.com/2014/11/wh...-to-kill-a-world-record-grizzly-in-1953/

I can find nothing about a verified polar bear kill using a 22lr, just a number of internet claims without names. I have zero doubt it can be done. I killed my first moose with one more than 50 years ago. I just cannot find a valid report of a polar bear kill.

Trail Boss is your friend for endless offhand practice up to 100 yds. Countless ways just practice

For me personally I will go for a .308 Caliber, very solid.

North, yah the 95 is a reliable, bizarre looking rifle! When I soft cycle a rifle, sometimes I'll get a jam with other guns, not the 95. This year's hunt was a unique situation:

Sparring back n forth with a big bull moose, throwing out challenge grunts, he wouldn't clear brush for clear shot. Finally, he rushed out to open spot. He was very close, and moved real quick. I soft cycled round into chamber, so as not to make any noise. Done deal. Never cleaned the rifle the whole trip. Real gritty and rusty. Never missed a beat.

Thoughts on an open sighted Marlin 45/70 with hard cast, heavy bullets?

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=150

Jorgel, I’m sure this load and others on this page would work fine. However, you change up the scenario you are working toward a bit as opposed to a 375 with a good low-range scope. Having been around the big bears, I’d think you want to be well within 100 yds.

Think a very liberal bow-hunting scenario as to range.

And that’s after I see you put five into a tea saucer at 75 yds back at camp. Or at a hundred. With those irons. 😉

It’d be an interesting way to do it.

I was just asking, as I know a lot of folks use that caliber up there. Would not be my personal choice. as to putting three into a tea cup at 100 with irons, easy peasy...

Factory ammo is getting thin. Pretty soon it’s going to be “whatever you can get”.

Touching off any of those referenced loads in a Marlin ‘95 though — that or going to a dentist might be a toss-up. 🙂

“Just show up with a 6.5 Creedmoor and your guide will be happy“

I agree with that, FMJ for Africa style penetration

Explain to the guide that you can continually shoot thru the same hole at 80y to get deep deep penetration

Alaska Fish & Game suggests 30-06 w heavy bullets

there is no one here or in Alaska thats going to argue with a .416 Ruger you can hit the bullseye with.That, or id take my 9.3x62mm Mauser. Thats just what i would think, as long as my guide didn't have a better suggestion.

Would it be a better suggestion of just a different one. For my way of thinking that 9.3x62 would be more than adequate if you shoot it well.

Would it be a better suggestion of just a different one. For my way of thinking that 9.3x62 would be more than adequate if you shoot it well.

Personally, I like a .300 Mag or 338 Mag. Doesn't really matter which one and a low power scope. That being said, while moose hunting, I ran across some Alaskan natives that had killed a bear and they were using a 375 Brown (wildcat?) and a 375 H&H. They had their rifles scoped with Fixed Sixteen Power Target Dot scopes. Maybe they know something I don't, but that wouldn't have been my choice.

What is wrong with people always wanting the minimum caliber for game..

Woosies or they got maxed out cc's and can't buy a new gun.

Brown bear hunts cost a LOT these days, especially when a plane flight is added to the price. Why wouldn't somebody be interested in whether one of the rifles they already have would work?

Yuppers.

Beautiful bear! Nicely done.

Regards, Guy

Some sanity. Thanks Phil

Nothing.

If I had to grab one tomorrow from my collection it would be my 6.5-300 or a lever 30-06 (BLR or 1895).

270 win and 129 Barnes

Not sure what bullet the fella was using but a 270 wsm is responsible for the quickest grizzly kill Ive ever seen. He was one of those hunters a guide remembers. Italian guy and he could shoot. Another impressive kill I was involved with was caught on film; Cody Robbins used a 280 on that bear.

Which coastal bears? SE bears are not kodiak bears or peninsula bears.If I were coming to SE I would bring any 30 cal standard. Kodiak or the peninsula I'm bringing 375 , 300 ultra, big Weatherby's ect.Not that I wouldn't use any of the big thirties or a 375 in SE , I just don't believe you need them here.

What about old fashioned.338WM?

Can that kills bear?

Once in awhile methinks…

😁

Appparently not. I've been using mine for over 30 years and neither it nor I have have killed a brown/ grizzly bear.

Oh, you mean I have to try?

After 43 years of of guiding brown bear hunters I would say it's 50/50 .
It works great if you can shoot

😂😂
👍

My family moved from Wyoming to our first home in Alaska in the summer of 1958. Nome was an interesting place in those days; full of suprises around most corners it was.
It seems that the elders found out that my dad had the largest rifle in town. Figuring he was a "cowboy" (he always sported the Stetson when outside) the elders would come to him when the white bears become a nuisance. He would fill a pocket full of freshly reloaded 30-06 rounds. Armed with his sporterized Springfield, he would head out with a couple of elders to the edge of town. As I recall, these rounds were loaded with the favorite 180 grain cup and core bullet of the day. Eleven or twelve bears fell to that combination during our two year tenure to western Alaska. The elders were happy, dad was happy, and (I am quite certain about this) more than a few bears were not....

Never hunted the big bears but I have hunted dangerous game. It seems odd to me to associate going after THE Apex predator and even considering the word "minimum" or even "adequate.".
I do have it on my "bucket list" (are you listening Phil, I know Hatari has mentioned us going) and when I go, it's probably be my "medium" recoil rifle, 340 Weatherby with 250gr TTSXs...

Exactly

Phil,

That reminds me of an outfitter in the Bob Marshall Wilderness I met some years ago. He carried a .375 H&H while guiding elk hunters, and I asked him if that was due to grizzlies. (There are some big ones in the Bob, which aren't very scared of humans, because they haven't been hunted in the last 30 years or so.)

"Nope," he said. "It's to finish off elk clients gut-shoot with their brand-new .338 Winchester Magnums!"

Don't you find the 250 grain to be too long? I love TSX and TTSX but in the 338 win or 340 or 338 RUM the 225 TTSX is my choice

You hear guides bashing every caliber!!

Which is more due to bullets and or shot placement

They're not bashing the pair of hands carting around the cartridge, because that would be impolite. Hence, the cartridge...

JWP: I use the 225 in the 338WM with great accuracy, but like boobs, the bigger the better and my 340 shoots the 250s into a dime all day long

Having never shot anything above 300WM (3.5 inch 12 gauge on a snow goose hunt was a bad choice too) - how does the recoil compare? 375 vs 338?

If you do your part?

Nothing to impart as my knowledge/experience doesn’t allow me to add anything of value. Just wanted to thank all the contributors for sharing knowledge on a great thread.

Knowledgeable guides aren't bashing any specific "caliber" (meaning cartridge) but the hunters who typically can't shoot a new-to-them, hard-kicking "caliber" accurately. Which is exactly what Phil was doing, and my outfitter acquaintance in the Bob Marshall.

They're also bashing the claims from many "magnum" fans that only a certain minimum, magic level of caliber/velocity/energy/bullet-weight is adequate (or sometimes "fully adequate") for certain big game animals. This is often what convinces some newbie elk or brown bear hunter who already owns and has hunted plenty with, say, a .30-06, that they MUST use a far more powerful cartridge, or the elk or bear won't die.

I know part of this due to having guided some myself here in Montana. Quite a few hunters on their first pronghorn or mule deer hunt decided they needed some sort of belted magnum, usually a 7mm or .30 caliber, to kill pronghorns and mule deer at "long range." Long range to many of my guidees was anything beyond 200-250 yards--as far as they'd shot anything back home.

So they bought a new magnum despite owning a very familiar .243 or .270 or .308 Winchester they'd already killed a pile of whitetails with. Often they wouldn't shoot the new MAGNUM enough before going on the hunt, because it kicked too much or the ammo was expensive. As a result they flinched enough to be unable to zero the rifle adequately.

This may seem impossible to many manly magnum fans, but have seen it many times, both while guiding and when hunting big game in various places around the world. One was a guy who brought a new 7mm Remington Magnum on a pronghorn hunt, leaving a .243 he'd killed plenty of whitetails with back home. Another was a European guy who'd hunted Stone sheep and caribou successfully with his 7x64 Mauser in British Columbia, killing both with one shot--but when he decided to hunt moose with the same outfitter a couple years later bought a .300 Winchester Magnum, because moose were so much bigger. He grouped three shots in about 18" at 100 yards during the pre-hunt sight-in in camp, and not only took several shots to kill a moose, but several to kill another caribou.

Why would a hunter going to SE Alaska be ok using a smaller caliber than a hunter heading to Kodiak or the peninsula?

One could easily get the impression from this thread that non-magnum cartridges are "better than" magnums because of less recoil, therefore almost anyone could shoot more accurately with them. I say "get the impression". That may not be intended, yet it's a dominant theme. That of course is true of certain shooters and/or hunters who don't shoot (for various reasons) "big guns" very often or not at all. But I hope no one goes away from here with the belief that their .308 Win is on a par with a .375 H&H under all conditions and circumstances.

I started big game (deer) hunting with a borrowed .30-30, and later with a borrowed .303 British. Sometime later I bought an Argentine military Mauser (still in the grease) in 7 x 57. It was possibly the best made and most beautiful rifle I've ever owned. But... I couldn't mount a scope due to the straight-out bolt handle, so I traded for my first .30-06, a converted M98 military Mauser. I began handloading for that rifle. Soon thereafter it was traded for a nearly new M70 in .30-06. A long story cut short: I've made handloads for most common rifles from .22 Hornet to the .458 Win Mag. And used them in hunting.

At age 86 my favorite rifle is a Ruger #1 in .458 Win Mag for which I make loads that simulate BP, or any .45-70 loads, and full house loads to Lott ballistics. And another thing: not grizzles of BB, but a "good" .458" bullet from a .45-70 or .458 Win will flatten a black bruin without a CNS hit, whereas a 9.3 x 62 will not!

I'm 86 and weigh 160 lbs.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Shooting is a physiological thing, meaning a good deal of it is in your mind, and the ability to negate a large amount of recoil is not all that easy.
Buck fever (jerking a rifle due to anxiousness) is a big deal to overcome as well, so the first time you hunt something you are much more prone to make a mistake.

Mistakes on dangerous game are always problematic…. So you are much better using a 30-06 with a super penetrating bullet than going with a magnum.

IIRC Phil said he recommends 06 for bear…. And I understand why.

CZ550,

I don't recall anyone saying that smaller cartridges are "better than" bigger cartridges.

Phil Shoemaker did note that smaller cartridges have indeed worked better, on average, for brown bears than larger cartridges. But he did NOT say that "almost anyone could shoot more accurately with them."

Dunno how many brown bear hunters Phil's outfitting company has guided, but over several decades it's been quite a few--and his clients regularly take very big bears.

Might also note that Phil has used a wide variety of cartridges to back up brown bear hunters, from the .30-06 to the .505 Gibbs. He still prefers his .458 Winchester, but that's for stopping charging, wounded bears, something very different than hunting unwounded bears.

Its sure a shame that you have been having to be so clear on posts lately.

I think the stupidity of the world gets worse every day.

I'll take a 308 guy over a mag guy any day. Assuming the 308 can shoot and the mag guy might not.

30-06 seems like a perfectly fine gun with the right bullet for a big bear. Its not that big a deal really. Whats big is picking the right bullet. And putting the first one where it needs to go. And if need be getting more in them which is never a bad thing.

I'll say it. All day. Every day. If you can't shoot, you can't shoot. Its that simple.

Ah. Another one of those my gun is big enough to floor an animal with a rib cage lung shot breaking no bones just because my round is big.

Flooring animal. DRT or whatever you want to call it is ONLY reliable 100% of the time if you hit CNS. Period.

If the '06 was good enough for a nazi high on meth pills wielding an mp40 and who really wanted to kill you, it'll do fine for a groggy brownie 200yds away that just woke up from hibernation. Use enough bullet and put it where it counts; they can't live without lungs.

I have never Killed a bear. I have spent some time with a knowledgeable guy fishing in SE in the ABC Islands. He was a retired LEO that had had to hunt down problem bears some that had eaten people. He carried a 458 Win Mag to do it. He kept it leaned up against the corner next to his recliner in his living room. I saw 27 Brown bears on my 2 trips up there. We got pretty close to some. They are impressive muscular strong looking animals. I wouldn't try to hunt them with the minimum that would get by. I would take my outfitters advice and hunt with something that would stop them.

My observation about hunters and shooting in general is either a person can shoot, or they can't. I've hunted in a lot of places with a lot of different folks for a wide variety of game and some just can't get it done when it counts. Buck fever, adrenaline rush or whatever, their shooting has not been stellar. Size of the hole in the barrel doesn't make much difference.
I've shot in competition for many years and seen it there since the beginning, guys do ok in practice but when it counts they start missing. Pressure can do nasty things to one's nerves and consequently to how well they shoot.

I've never hunted the big bears either....But I do know that if I won the lottery I wouldn't be running out to buy a new super big magnum. I have 30.06, 338.06 and 7 mag. I don't like recoil any bigger than those and would have a hard time practicing with a 340 wby etc. I've killed plenty of game with my rifles and feel very comfortable with them. I'd take one of those after having had a conversation about it with the outfitter.

Still waiting to hear from my brother whether he bought the .300 WinMag that his buddy the sporting goods store owner suggested to solve his problem of not being able to hit fur with a .30-06.

My suggestion was too complicated; buy 10 boxes of ammo, get the hell away from the bench, and do some regular, focused practice.

Nope. Got no time for that....

I visited with several guides about 3 years ago.. One mentioned the .300's with heavy Nosler Partitions .. The others were suggesting a .375 and of course they expected you to be able to shoot.

Phil talked to a group of students for me and said he was fine with clients starting at the 270/708 level as long as they were using a good bullet and were a competent shooter. Obviously he's backing up clients with the 06 or the 458, so the big difference seems to be that the solo hunter has to be the primary shooter and the backup with one gun. Solution: make that first shot a good one 😇😀

Which is exactly why many "white hunters," in the early days of East African safaris, told their clients who shot poorly the problem was "the different light in Africa"....

That is a really good question. Having hunted all those places i can't fathom why. Just because the bears are typically a little bigger in Kodiak?

Because on the peninsula and kodiak a really big bear is much bigger than a really big bear in SE.

M 203.....

223 on top.... 40mm Grenade launch on bottom....

use the bottom barrel first...

I'd love to add something worthwhile to this thread, but as long as guides charge the cost of a new pickup to hunt a single animal, I will need to keep reminding myself I'm a poor boy haha.

It would be a great experience just to talk with different guides and see what they would want me to bring to the hunt, whether it be a current rifle or a new one.

Definitely some real good info here from some extremely knowledgeable people!

They were nice. I never have been. You shoot poorly and need more practice.

In the field while in down time I'm showing sling use, use of field rests. Making clients dry fire at things. Even animals.

but if they shoot bad I don't mince words. Why lie.

They charge what has to be charged. Not because they are rich etc... FWIW. In all my years guiding has been the hardest work ever. Most fun. Pays a bit less than my best jobs. Ive enjoyed it off and over the years for sure.

As to what to bring, I'd bet most folks have something that will work. Especially since the notion you have to have 270 or 06 etc to kill a simple whitetail deer..

"They were nice. I never have been. You shoot poorly and need more practice.

In the field while in down time I'm showing sling use, use of field rests. Making clients dry fire at things. Even animals.

but if they shoot bad I don't mince words. Why lie."

Probably because early, guided safaris in Africa took several months, not just a week or two--often even the case into the 1950s. Professional hunters literally had to live with their clients for a while, instead waving good-bye in a relatively short time.

Some clients also started shooting better as the safari went on, though not because they got used to "the different light in Africa." The author of one of the most popular and famous safari books ever published, Robert Ruark, had never killed a big game animal beforehand, though he'd done a lot of bird hunting. He evidently became pretty good during the safari, which as I recall was at least a couple months long.

Really?
I had no idea. I figured they were similar

Back in the very early nineties I built a 340 Wby on a 700 action, with express sights set for the 250-gr Nos Part’s at 100 yds. for brown bear. Brown Prec Classic stock with a Pachmyar pad; 3-position safety and a big claw extractor.

I never went on the bear hunt but it became my very good elk rifle for twenty-some years. As an aside, a friend and I went on a caribou and black bear hunt on the upper Kuskokwim in the. 90’s. The second to the last day of the hunt, having seen brownies every day, our outfitter who had extra bear tags offered my friend and I each a tag for 3.5k! We dithered and declined due to our much younger families and needs at the time.

We often think of that I occasion and shake our heads at the decision some keener foresight would have made a big difference on.

It was a great rifle and still, though I tolerate recoil less, seems like it wouldn’t be a bad choice. But to my mind, though many smaller cartridges would suffice, the classic 375 H&H with a 270-gr TSX or a good 300 grain seems a perfect match.

Phil, have you ever noticed any difference in tenacity or toughness between a large coastal brown bear and a mtn. grizzly, assuming both are of equal maturity and relative size? My one (mid sized) Talkeetna grizzly didn't take much to kill.

If I can ever draw that darn Raspberry tag.....

Buehler ... Buehler ... Buehler ..... or anyone wishing to put their $0.02 in.

Let's say I was going to hunt coastal brown bears in Alaska. I would take a 30-06 that I've shot for many years (700 BDL 22" barrel) and am quite familiar with it. I'm looking at different 200 grainers to develop a load with either RL-26, H4831SC, or Hunter to try and get at least 2650 MV......if I can get 2700 MV so much the better.

Of the following 200 grain bullet choices, which would be your top two picks? Also, would you absolutely avoid the two shown below from Speer and Hornady, since they are not "premium" bullets that may or may not hold up?

200gr Hunting Bullets
Norma Oryx
Swift A-Frame
Nosler Accubond
Nosler Partition
Hornady ELD-X
Speer Hot Core
Federal Terminal Ascent

One of these years I hope to check this off my bucket list. :-)

You might also consider the 180-gr Barnes TTSX.

How the hell has this thread gone on for 16 pages? Wasn’t it answered quite a while ago?

Make sure you use a birch wooden spoon to brew the beer you drink while you’re handliading those bullets, otherwise none of them will work.




In case my sarcasm wasn’t apparent enough…. They’re all fine. Don’t overthink it.

I’d likely pick the Swift 200gr or Nosler 200 from your list. If you can find them, North Fork bullets are also excellent.

Change your settings! I have seven pages. 😁

Nor do I recall anyone saying that smaller cartridges are better than bigger cartridges. My statement was to the "impression someone might get". And, of course, we know about the native girl (Stent) who killed a record book grizzly with her single shot .22 Long cartridge. And I know my oldest son killed dozens of warthog in Africa with his single-shot .22 LR with brain shots for protein. He even literally "flattened" a wild cow with his single-shot .22 LR, that was a real problem in the village, with a 40g between the eyes. And so on. So I'm aware that anything, except a 30-ft shark or huge whale, on land can be killed with minimal cartridges firing an appropriate bullet into "the right" spot. As we all know, I hope, killing is one thing and stopping is another. My statement was limited to black bruins being "flattened" (DRT) without a CNS hit in using appropriate bullets in .458", whereas I've killed several using medium calibers that went some distance after the shot that were not hit in spine or brain. They were dead but not DRT. Where I hunt that can make a difference.

All that to make a single point, really: most anyone can learn to shoot a big-bore rifle with accuracy, without denying that most land mammal can be "killed" with about any rifle cartridge, and... I've written that a person with a .308 Win rifle "needs" nothing more for all N.A. hunting - or its equivalent. But killing is one thing, stopping is another!

And I'll stand by my original post.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

And one more thing: I have great respect for Phil, and have said so on many occasions - including in my manuals and blogs.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

I would use what I already own , either my Kimber in .325 WSM or the BLR in .358 Winchester . Either one with the right load I would feel comfortable with as I shoot both very well . I have never hunted Alaska or big bears either one but I would think the two absolute most important things to concentrate on for success on such a hunt would be , know where to hit the bear and make sure your first bullet goes there and Don't Piss Off Your Guide .

Gut shoot that bastard and let the games begin 😂

The same topics come up periodically because there are always new posters.

He doesn't have to read these if he doesn't want too.

I shot my brown bear in the back of the head with a 7mag. Dropped her like a hammer. Use what ya got and go kill the damn thing.

I wouldn't choose the ELD-X for brown bear.
The 200 grain partition and A-frame are solid choices

My thoughts

30-06 in 700 BDL 22" barrel and am quite familiar with it.

200gr Hunting Bullets:

Number #1 Monometal, in Barnes, Hornady, Nosler flavor. 180 or 200gr

??? Federal Terminal Ascent - Have not read enough, or have any actual experience with this bullet.

2. Swift A-Frame
2. Nosler Partition

3. Nosler Accubond

xxx Hornady ELD-X
xxx Speer Hot Core
xxx Norma Oryx

I just wrote an article about this very problem-- in 35 years guiding big game hunters I dont ever remember wishing my hunter had more horsepower, I do remember wishing for more accuracy, many many times.

I'd say the 22 is the minimum

I have never been an "official" guide, but have taken plenty of people out hunting over the last 30 plus years. Turkeys, deer, antelope, and elk.

This statement is spot on.

Another quote that I read somewhere "Shot placement relegates all other ballistic discussions to secondary importance."

I have done mostly DIY hunts over the years.

But have also done some guided hunts. One of the first things I always tell my guide is the that my main responsibility as a client/hunter is to put the bullet in the right place.

Just because you shoot a magnum doesn't mean you are a poor shot.. Two of the best game shots I ever saw shot magnums, but one also killed deer with a .22 and everything in between and up to a .458 .. He loved rifles. You have to shoot to shoot a magnum well, but my first wife never shot much target.. I usually had her 7mm mag. shot in and she made some fine shots with it. But you have to know how to shoot first. The worst crippler of game I ever saw from antelope to elk shot .243's and 6mm's..
This last fall my pals daughter killed two elk both cows. The first she shot with a 6mm and 90 gr. BTBT. The second was another cow at longer distance she took it with an Accumark .300 Wea. This gal can shoot. She has been shooting since she was able to squeeze the trigger. I have been told by many guides if you can shoot it, the ,300 is tops.. If you can't the use what you can shoot accurately..

I just did a quick check of 10 Alaska brown bear guides. Their recommendations were:
1. 30-06
1..300wm or 375 H & H
2. 375 H & H
6. 338wm and up

It seems to me it would be whatever you and your guide agree on. I'd be OK with a 30-06 and 200 grain Nosler Partitions, although I have a .338 Win Mag and might choose that with 225 grain TTSX or 250 grain Nosler Partitions. It's mostly a matter of personal preference, which is why we see wildly divergent opinions.

I've never hunted brown bears, although I've seen them when hiking in Alaska, so my opinion is mostly based on what I've read, and experiences hunting other species. I have hunted dangerous game in Africa, so that gives me a little concept of might be involved mentally, but I don't claim any expertise on this subject.

I'm simply stating my personal preferences based on limited knowledge and experience.

Look at the information on the Alaska Fish and Game website. It's about as good of advice as you will get. The right gun is the one you shoot best. Period. Magnums are not needed. Period. Nothing wrong with them either, if you can shoot them. I couldnt begin to tell you how many bull moose and grizzly bears Ive seen killed quite handily with a 30-30 Winchester. I've personally killed 4 woods bison now. One at 300 yards with a 338 federal. Seeing that the bison are the largest heaviest boned animals in the country I reckon that stretched out 308 will work for about anything.

I did look at it and felt what the guides recommended was also important. Chances are the information in a government agency was written by a paper pusher who has never been in the field. I am sure lots of game has been killed with the .30-30. Here guys used to hunt elk with it. Not because it is what was best, but what they had. One of my older friends told me he hunted deer a couple years with a .25-20 because that was all he had at the time. Later he used the .243 through the 7mm Wea. Several of my friends in S.D. shot bison with .22-250s. Hit them in the ear. It will do the job, but like the Indian woman who killed a grizzly with a.22 short. That is what she had. Doesn't make it the best. I realize you are in a different situation than the sport coming to Alaska for brown bear. It doesn't cost you 30-40,000 dollars for a big bear hunt. If I were going, I would probably take a .340 or .375. But I can shoot them and shoot them well. Doesn't mean everyone can. What works under one set of conditions doesn't mean it is ideal.

You wouldnt get any arguments from me on your choices. Both are great cartridges. Back in the day when I was a young fella I filled two mule deer buck tags in one day with a 25-20. I believe the "Jordan" buck was killed with that cartridge as well.

254, thanks, I really enjoy your posts.

Dunno how big coastal brown bears get in SE Alaska, but they can get pretty big even south of there. This bear was killed by Grancel Fitz (the first guy to take what at the time were considered ALL the species of big game in North America), in British Columbia not all that far north of the U.S. border. The skull's B&C score of 25-9/16 tied the B&C world record at that time. The rifle Fitz used on all his hunts was Griffin & Howe .30-06, built on a Remington Model 30 action with a 2-3/4X Hensoldt scope. He also used factory ammo on all his hunts, on this one 220-grain Core-Lokt Remingtons, back when the jackets were very heavy.

To say nothing of Judge Folta in Juneau who killed a pile of them with a .35 Remington.

https://survivalcommonsense.com/world-record-grizzly-killed-with-22-caliber-rifle/

Yep--until he "moved up" to the .30-06....

Carried a 257 Ackley for a few years, saw a large interior Brown Bear across a wide flooded creek, think I was in more danger from the creek than the bear with the 257 Ackley. Whatever rifle you have, you better be confident in your shooting ability.

Would I go on a Big Brown bear hunt with the 257 AI not on purpose but that's all I had at that time. A 06 and up with the right bullets will work fine just shoot well!

As large as you can comfortably and accurately shoot. I'd be weary of anything less than a 30-06 although I know a guy that has successfully hunted with a 270win for many years. I've taken 2, both with a 338wm and partitions.

Having seen 338 win mag at 250 partitions on moose they could be about my last choice of bullets for bears.

Why's that? Did the 250 Partitions perform poorly on the moose? Curious, I've never owned a 338, but would have figured the 338 with 250 gr Partitions ought to be a good combo.

Thanks, Guy

I would think so as well. I buddy of mine poleaxed a charging 8.5ish boar at 7 yards with a .338 and nosler 250s. No problems aside from the excitement of the moment.

I'm curious too. Back when I used the .338 a LOT put quite a few 250 Partitions into various big game animals. They ranged in size from mule deer bucks to an eland pushing 1500 pounds, and the only 250 that didn't exit was the first shot on the eland. It hit a tiny thorn-branch just in front of the eland. The bullet still landed where I'd aimed, just behind the shoulder, but the twig did turn the bullet sideways, so it punched a perfect Partition silhouette through the hide. The eland took off behind brush, where we found it in a clearing a couple minutes later, standing with its head lowered. A second 250 through the chest, from the other side (which landed point-on), dropped the bull--and exited. Also shot 250s endwise through a mule deer buck and a blue wildebeest bull, about the size of a mature bull elk, both exiting.

In fact the only .338 Partition of any weight I recovered while using that rifle was a 225 from a huge musk ox bull, the size of an average cow bison, which I shot twice. The first shot broke the near shoulder as the bull quartered toward me at around 175 yards, and exited the ribs on the other side. The bull spun around a couple of times, ending up broadside, whereupon I put another one behind the shoulder--which tipped the bull over. It ended up under the hide on the far side, retaining 85% of its weight.

Didn't use the 210 much, especially after finding out how wellthe 200 Ballistic Tip worked, but they all exited too. Though a friend had one stopped by a rear-angling shot on a mature whitetail buck.

I've shot a few moose back in the 80's in Alaska and never saw a 338 250 partition exit a moose
Killed them well but none exited

It is always amazing to me how different people get different results when using the same equipment in similar situations. This thread is a prime example of that.

I've been ridiculed several times on this board and basically been called full of shït because what I relayed as my experience, didn't match what someone else had found. I am not seeing that attitude on this thread quite yet but I sense it coming.

Carry on, I guess.

.300 H&H and 200 grain old style grand slams at the ready here...but luckily this brown bear didn't care one bit about us, as he had a nose full of the carcass.

Thanks for the info, JWP. Do you recall how much weight those retained?

I didn't start using the .338 until around 1990, and during the 1990s Nosler started moving the partition forward on most of the heavier, larger-caliber Partitions, so they'd retain more weight than the typical 65-70%. Exactly how much depends on the bullet.

Have mentioned this before, but the first one of that generation I used on big game was the 300-grain .375. Have only recovered two, but they retained 88% and 89% of their weight.

As noted, the only .338 Partition I've recovered was the 225 from a musk ox, which retained 85% of its weight.

The only two 9.3mm Partitions I've recovered (from a northern British Columbia moose and a blue wildebeest bull) averaged 82% retention.

The only two 400-grain .416s recovered (from water and Cape buffalo) retained an average of 89%.

John

Don't recall the weight retention, but on all 4 moose they were found under the hide on the offside.
These were large Alaskan moose and the bullets all looked just like the Nosler adds at the time

Great picture!

I used NPs for a long time in a lot of different calibers and weights. At one time I thought the perfect mushroom just under the far-side-hide was ideal. I no longer believe that. But my experience mirrors yours. I have a bunch of recovered bullets and a large percentage of them are NPs. I still have not seen an exit wound from an Accubond.

Thanks for the info guys...
Just saw it as as I posted...

Don't live there. Don't hunt there. But it's hard to Imagine a model 70 30-06 with a stout bullet and 6 shots ready to rock and roll as anything but up to the task.

Curious, never heard of the man and his exploits. Lever gun, pump, semi?

The book is a good read. Especially his "hell" on Kodiak. But he tipped over some eleven foot bears.

"Judge George W Folta may have been grudgingly called “the hanging judge” by annoyed criminal defense lawyers who observed vicious convicted killers dangling from Juneau’s public gallows, but most Alaskans affectionately called him “Alaska’s bear hunting judge” because he personally bagged some 300 bears during his half century of Alaska hunting. Judge Folta grew up in an era when young boys were taught to emulate Daniel Boone and Davy Crockett, and developed into manhood after the example of Theodore Roosevelt. Coming to Alaska in 1912, young Folta wasted no time in beginning his lifelong pursuit of Ursus Arctus, venturing onto Kodiak Island the very next spring. Indeed, he future judge returned to Kodiak the next year as well, and packed deep into the heart of that island where he shot three tremendously large Brown Bears with a little model 1906 .35 Remington autoloader. Folta continued bagging four to six large bruins annually until his untimely death while bear hunting in 1955. But Folta was far ore than just a hunter of bears; he was one of the most respected Alaska jurists of his day. Without any formal law school education, young Folta began his legal career working as a territorial court clerk. He later passed the bar, and worked as a territorial solicitor, prosecutor, and practicing attorney before being appointed by Franklin D. Roosevelt to serve as the US District Court judge at Juneau in 1947. This volume, written by his son Richard D. Folta, contains the very essence of Alaska’s bear hunting judge, as can be related only by one who accompanied his famous father on many hunts. Action-packed with scores of exciting bear tales from the judge’s own notes and records, this book also contains personal maps describing “private” trails and hunting preserves known only to Judge Folta and those closest to him." (from back cover)

This has been my experience as well, not just with the NP, but even monolithic bullets. Had a hunter two years ago shoot a big bull moose with a 338 at less than 10 yards and the bullet didnt exit. That one was a Barnes X. Had a guy shoot one at about 60-yards this fall with a 300 winchester and again the bullet didnt exit. He was shooting 200 grain NP. Moose are big animals and it takes a lot to get an exit wound. The most reliable way to do it that Ive seen is with a 444/45/70 with hard cast bullets. They will almost always exit.

Had two hunters that year. 308 win and 168 ttsx. 338 Win mag and 250 partitions. I figured heavy for caliber we were fine in 338. Figured the 308 would be ok also.

The 308 hunter shot was about 120 yards. 2 rounds to the lungs, no bones, last round through base of neck broke neck. All 3 exited.

228 hunter the shot was around 100 yards give or take. 2 shots. Both to lungs, no bones IE ribs only. Both bullets made the first lung and into the 2nd and were somewhere in the off side lung having never made the ribs on the off side. That is another case of yep it died. But man a bone shot with similar results would be scary or in my mind I'd not trust it.

Sooner or later I'll catch a TTSX. And run 225 ttsx in the 338 Win mag and its worked fine. Exits so far. 210 TTSX in the 338-06. No exit on a shoulder/neck shot exiting through shoulder, but the hide caught it as it didn't' quite cut the hole in the off side hide quite enough to get out. 100ish yard shot also.

I've just not been pleased with lack of penetration to exit consistently with partitions, Have to be more careful than I'd have expected. Of course I've used too light for caliber ones, like 180 partitions in 300 wtby and they wouldn't exit a whitetail about 150 pounds. John you told me go heavier. I did. 200 partitions were much more reliable.

Thats what I expected from the big 338 ones.

Granted its only sample of 2. But when ribs and lungs stop em its scary as heck to me.

Why these bullets did that is beyond me. You would think 250 grains of almost anything would go through.

Boils down at this point in time about the only thing I really trust is barnes on big stuff.

Factory or handload on the 338?

Minimum i'd use would be my '06 hand loaded with 220gr Partitions at 2550 fps.

Sorry If I missed, Was this Bear or Moose?

I'm not calling you a liar by any means, but my difference in experiences using partitions with the 250gr .338's two big sisters, the 286gr 9.3 and the 300gr .375 is strangely different with stuff I've killed:

57" bull moose at about 75yds, first 300gr .375 was broadside and exited. Second was at about 30 yards as he jumped up, suddenly alive and was shot at a hard quartering away angle. Bullet entered just forward of the hip, traversed chest at an angle, and was found lodged against a neck vertebrae, total penetration about 5' chopping meat and bone as it went. Velocity 2550.

7.75' Brown bear, charging at 12 yards, first 300gr .375 entered front of chest just under the chin. Bear flipped backwards and began trying to get away, I commenced further raking to prevent tracking, bear collapsed at first follow-up shot but then got shot some more just because I was in the mood, four rounds total. Three of the four exited. One, likely the first rear to front shot, was found perfectly expanded and lodged against the back of the skull, which it had cracked. Once again about 5' of penetration, chopping stuff the whole way including the pelvis. Velocity 2550.

8' Brown bear, about 75 yards, first 286gr 9.3 broke the near shoulder and exited behind the off shoulder. Bear fell down and roared, got back up and made for the woods. I swung through and shot again as the crosshairs passed his nose. At the second shot he reared up, pawed the air and collapsed for pictures. Second round entered lower jaw, traversed the neck and chest, and was found lodged in the skin just forward of the hip. Velocity 2400.

I've got various similar experiences, but those are a few that spring to mind immediately. Perhaps the .338s starting velocity of 2700ish makes a difference, but based on my experiences with the sisters I'd happily use a nasty-kicking, no account, unrefined, questionable pedigree .338 and 250s if (gasp!) that's what I found myself with.

Factory. Very few of our clients reload. Had it been reload I'd have been more suspicious.

Moose. Have not seen a partition on a bear yet. I carry barnes obviously.

Thats what I'd expect. And expected. Was glad when they said they had heavy partitions. Who knows. Maybe the boxes labeled wrong. Put wrong ammo wrong box and had lighter ones. They did look about like a partition shape but then that means nothing.

If we would not have been totally dead tire as I clean after we shoot, IE we ended up with a stuck wheeler and etc... lets say it was almost daylight by the time we got done or I'd have done some serious digging in the guts trying to find both bullets.

I still am ok if folks show up with partitions as I think they are much better than other cup and core. But I'm getting to less confident. Next client with them I'm thinking hard that after they shoot I'm going to drop a barnes in for good measure.

Lotza chit kill deer goats and bear and not hard to penetrate. But that 168gr TTSX in that saum? Prolly a pretty solid choice. I've read this whole thread and still would prefer a Model 70 with 6 ready to go in -06 and a bullet up to the task. 6 READY TO GO in an -06 trumps 4 of anykind..... when your ass is puckered! But that's just common sence.. Unless your from the lower 48 and a hog killing machine with a big bore.

Happy new years [bleep]!!!

You may want to ask John Burns.

Is that stick with a different handle?

So I'm not of place with an M1 and an 8 round en bloc of 168 ttsx and a couple of en blocs in the pocket then.

Slade mags for a 760.