When my brother gets back from Iraq, he wants to rebarrel his Savage Weather Warrior which is currently wearing a 7mm WSM.

We have discussed both the 338 WSM and the 358 WSM


Between the two, which would you steer him into, and why..?



Sincerely,
Scott

I would do neither. Just sell the rifle and buy a 338 Winchester Mag. Thou there is no flies on the 7mm WSM its an almost 7mm Remington Mag and its not a bad place to be. I was never much for wildcat cartridges. To much of a pain and they really never live up to expectations and then there is resale if you have to, you end up really taking it in the shorts.

If those are the only two caliber choices, I would definitely go with the .338 caliber. Better bullet selection, sectional density, and penetration using the correct bullets. Either caliber would make for a fine rifle.

R

Pretty good answer! Only advantage of doing the WSM deal is if the OP wants a short action. If that is the case, I would go for the 358 WSM if for no other reason than that I have heard of some pretty impressive results from that round.

358 for sure!!!!!!!! what is the fun with running with a mob??? the 358 has the edge in bl. weight and cool factor . go for it and have a blast. he has been through enough allready and deserves to play and enjoy. big bears look out!! go man.

Well just thought I'd throw it out here in the "Alaskan" part of the Fire.

I'm pretty sure the little brother doesn't want to discard the 7mm, he's just lookin at something a little more chunky that he could screw onto that Savage action without having to complicate any other aspect of the rifle, like bolt face/head, magazine/clip, etc. He just wants to shoot a midbore and raise his "Taylor" numbers a little.

As for "Wildcats," he isn't afraid to load for them, we've been doing that for awhile now anyway.

It seems that the 338 WSM will shoot the 200 and 210 grain bullets as fast as the 358 will push the 225's, and will shoot the 225's as fast as the 358 WSM will move the 250's.

I kinda like my 358 WSM shooting 225's at 2930fps, and it will push the 250 and 280 grainers right along too.

I think a lot of the .338 as a very balanced cartridge, and admire it in every case from the 33 Winchester on up to the 340 Wby. (don't have any experience with the 338 RUM).
Then his 7mm already takes care of what his 300 Savage leaves for it, so maybe stepping on up to the .358 bore might be the way to go (not that I am in any way infulencing that choice).

Anyway, I'm just trying to gather some opinions for him, while he's taking care of some things for the rest of us.

Buy a .338 RCM. It's better; it's from the factory; cartridges and parts are readily available; and it's going to be around for a while.

And it works really nice...

Dennis

going with the savage theme of being able to switch out barrels with minimal drama, I'd go 338 WSM, love those 33's but my buddy james is a 35 whelin guy and will say go 358... go with your heart on this one I'd say.

358WSM, I would NOT sell the 7mm-WSM, nor would I waste time and try to change the rifle one iota. I am a big fan of the .338 Winchester magnum, which already has one heck of a track record. Plus buying ammo for this caliber is very easy compared to any WSM caliber.

I have killed more than my share of big game with both a 7mm Remington magnum and the .338 Winchester magnum and I can tell you without a doubt, that .338 Win mag with a 250 grain Swift A Frame bullet, will kill any big game on this earth.

I would pay a dollar to see the look on your face when you looked down the eyes of an unhappy Cape buffalo at 50 feet and all you had in your hands was a .338... .

Dennis

Yea the short action Idea vs the standard 30-06 size. All off maybe a 1/4 to a half inch on the bolt throw. Would be better off with a 300 WSM if you wanted to go that way. Hey its a free country or was. I just find that wildcats never live up to expectation except in print and on message boards. As for shooting Cape Buffalo in full charge at 50 feet with a 338 or a 577 Nitro is not going to matter a wit if you can't shoot, and if you are in that position in the first place, guess what you have a problem with field marksmanship. Your PH would have sorted it out long before he would let it go that far, to much video watching Mark S do his thing for the camera. In the end there is not a whole lot of dangerous game to hunt world wide, and with the current crop of excellent bullets, you could almost make the case that the 30-06 will do for most of what it left and able to do with enough money. All but a very few will ever shoot dangerous game such as brown bear or lion more that once in a life time for the most part we are deer hunters with an occasional black bear to shoot. And by deer,I mean deer sized game up to Elk and Moose.

1) The .338 RCM isn't a wildcat -- main reason I recommended it, as the original talked about .338 WSM vs .358 WSM. Both of them are wildcats, but mine is commercial and rather well distributed these days.

2) I actually do know a little bit about what I'm talking about relative to shooting Cape buffalo -- and it's not really like you described -- at least not if it's really wild buffs in wild country. And bears live where I do, along with some other critters. So be a little careful with your criticism -- you may not really know it...



If you look carefully, you can see that I shot him in the nose, at 50 feet. We were about 60 or 75 Km from camp, out in the endless grass sea in Mozambique, so it wasn't real tame...

Dennis

I would go with the 358WSM, changin out savage barrels is real easy( changed my 30-06 to a 35 Whelen with no fuss) and it could be changed back to the 7 mm in 30 minutes.

338 is great but i just love 358" and like you said you could push a 270gr North Fork or 280gr Swift A-frame for the really big stuff. The 225gr accubond could be an all around long range lighter game bullet.

Fellas,

Lets not turn this into a "My rifle will beat up your Cape Buff better than your rifle will beat up my Cape Buff," kind of discussion.
I am tempted (to jump into the pissing contest) to put my 358 WSM "Wildcat" up against any 338 Winchester as for "Wildcats not living up to their expectations"...mine kind of exceeds them.
BTW, anything built of the old H&H case, is a "Wildcat."

This is not about buying another rifle, or even another proven cartridge.



Here, it is what it is.
My brother has a Savage.
He's not selling it.
And he's not buying another Left Handed rifle.., He "WANTS" another barrel for "This one."

It is designed to shoot the 7mm WSM.
Meaning it has a .532" bolt face/head, and a WSM magazine/follower.

"Those" are the parameters in which the question is asked.

Although I believe something along the lines of the 358 Winchester, or the 338-08 (Federal), would cover all the bases he might ever want to run... We are still limiting ourselves to how his gun is set up...so, without changing out the bolt head...we're looking at cartridges with the .532" diameter.


Okay, I like the 338 RCM. As for it being "Better" than the WSM...as a handloading proposition, I don't see it as "Better." What I do see is slightly less powder capacity than the WSM's, and a shorter O.A.L. It's almost .010" length basically gives us a "Fat" 338 Federal case.
Handloads for the 338 RCM put in the 338-06 catagory, and that's not a bad place to be.., it's right on the heels of the 350 Remington Mag/35 Whelen. So, the 338 RCM will come within 250-300fps of the 358 WSM. Better..? Maybe not, but plenty enough just the same.
Yes, factory loads are available for the 338 RCM. But again, we handload (everything), and there is no shortage of 300 WSM brass with which to use for the 338/358 WSM.

Originally, the question asked, "...between the two..." meaning the 338 WSM or the 358 WSM.(I'll let the 338 RCM squeeze into the mix).
So, I appreciate the thoughts about "another rifle," and "other cartridges." but let this one be answered within it's boundries.

Thanks...

My 338 rcm is quickly becoming a favorite of mine. It feeds well, handles well, and shoots well. I'm running 225's at 2650fps and 200's at 2800 fps handloaded from the 20" tube. A 338 WSM would outrun an RCM by a bit.

I've always liked WSMs too but have had more problems with them than any other round. Mostly feeding and ejection problems. But, I still haven't given up on them because I've had a few that were great. I seriously considering building 300WSM on a 10 twist brux with a wyatts box and setting it up for longish range. I'm thinking 208g Amax, 210 Bergers, or 200g AB's.

Bb

Although not exactly one of the choices you mentioned, I would consider re-barreling to 325WSM. A standard factory cartridge with goods bullets (Nosler PT, Barnes TSX) for heavy game. Dave Scovill did exactly this with an early Kimber. FWIW

A 366WSM would be cool

It sure would...

...and, although I would really enjoy that one (a lot), he wouldn't.

Can't forget the .411 either..Lol..!


Nice try Randy..!

To tell ya the truth the 325WSM would be my choice. I have one and it's done very good for me with 180gr TSX @3100fps.
The safe is full of guns that don't get any field time because the .325 Kimber Montana is always always in hand....

I'd go with the 358WSM... because I like .35-caliber. I've owned a couple 350RM and a 35 Whelen. A friend has a 358WSM and shoots 310gr Woodleighs at 2400 fps. Formerly, it was a Ruger 77 SS in 350RM. You can get his opinion at www.35cal.com/

250-grainers will leave the muzzle of his 22" tube well in excess of 2700 fps!

In essence, it's equal to a 358 Norma, and that's a lot of cartridge!

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Either one will do you just fine. I've had a 338 WSM for 5 years or so and like it. IMO, there isn't one thing you could do with one that you couldn't with the other.

As for being 50 feet from a po'd buff, I'd want a gun I was very intimate with and the cal to a great degree wouldn't matter with me. IMO at that time it's time for one perfectly placed round and precision will trump power. I'd not sweat it one bit if it was a 338, but that's just me. As long as I knew it very well.

Dober

Yep and yep!

Either would be real fun to mess with, but I'd go .358 WSM, myself. .338 WSM is too close to .325 WSM.....

I would think it could be easily loaded to down to (the very cool IMHO) .358 Win power levels... Or you could flat thump stuff, big stuff, at full power.

Yep I'm 100% in agreement

Keep the 7, buy one of the biggers, preferably the .358. If you are gonna step up, step up!.

guess some have reading comprehension problems.....

Here is the deal...

Does your bro own a .38 or .357 magnum? Well, going with the .358 would allow him to shoot pistol bullets and cast bullets in both rifle and handgun. Then there are those very cool Marlin 1894s in .357...

Think about going to a long action so you can seat bullets optimally. Not getting much out of the short mag if your bullet is seated below the shoulder.

Really, the .35 Whelen or .35/284 has more to offer, especially an AI'd Whelen. Having owned one, I'm a bit partial...

If I didn't live in Alaska, where the .357 is about useless for woods carry, I would simplify my life a whole bunch with the AI Whelen and .357 combo. About all you would need in the lower 48, no matter where you live.

Hogan,

I do have a 35 Whelen...I love it.(..and pine for a 35-284)

Now, as far as it being better....???

Let me tell you something about the 358WSM...

In a short action, with 225's seated to 2.800, the base of those bullets are at the shoulder.(swift, and partitions, but the TSX is a little deeper)

Nope, perhaps not the most ideal, but I can still send them out of the barrel at 2930fps...
(kinda looks like the 358 Norma...don't it..?)

If I lived in Alaska, and I had a standard length action (as you suggest), I would chamber for the 358 Nukalpiaq. That way, I could easily shoot the 280 grain bullets.


As for "thinking about a long action,"...always, but the rifle that my brother has, and WANTS to build on is a shorty...oh well.



Sincerely,
Scott

Lol.....

I'd go with the .338 WSM myself. In fact, I still might if I decide the .338-06 doesn't kick hard enough. ;-) (As an aside, the fact that there's "factory" ammo for the .338-06 or .338 RCM doesn't mean much, since it's very expensive. Fireforming .300 or .325 WSM brass isn't that big of a deal.) The .338 WSM is a noticeable step up from .338 RCM performance also.

For me, the flatter trajectory, better bullet selection, and deeper penetration (critical for DG CNS shots) are a win for the .338. As a kicker, Barnes offers three .338 TTSX bullets, and _no_ .358 TTSX bullets. I think both the 210 gr and 225 gr TTSX are probably ideal matches for the .338 WSM. Barnes is claiming expansion on the 225 down to 1600 FPS, which should give plenty of range. As an aside, I'd expect the 225 gr Barnes to outperform any 250 gr traditional bullet as a bear stopper - meaning CNS destroyer.

For lighter game, you can load down a bit and use less expensive bullets like the 215 gr Sierra Gameking or 200 gr Speer Hot-Cor to great effect. Good stuff!

.338 RCM factory ammo is "very expensive"? As compared to which factory ammo for the .338 WSM? I reload for the .338 RCM, so I'm fairly confident it's less expensive to load for than the .338 WSM -- which is the only comparison that matters -- since you can't buy any factory ammo for your choice.

Please define "a noticeable step up" for .338 WSM vs .338 RCM. Do you handload for the .338 WSM, or are you simply guessing? I have actual loads for the .338 RCM, if you need some to compare.

I sort of doubt that there is a real great big distinction between the effects of one vs the other, but if you have some current handloading results, I await seeing them.

Dennis

I'll through out another option, and add a bit of personal reason for it. My first AK big game rifle ended up as a 350 rigby magnum on a mauser action, 250 gr @ 2700 fps and consistant 3 shot 3/4" 100 yd groups. On paper and behind a computer it sounds like the perfect AK big game rifle, and fealt good in the hands. The trouble is hunting hard for a week with that rifle in my hands, a 10+# rifle didn't feel good at all.

So it was replaced with a Ruger M77 allweather 350 rem mag. My thought was, since Ruger used their wsm actions to build the 350, all I had to do was have it rechambered to a 358 wsm and I'd have the perfect AK hunting rifle. Well, I shot it as a 350 rem mag, and figured in an ~8# rifle, 225's @ 2700 fps was all I really wanted in the recoil department, and honestly with todays bullets, if you can't kill any and all AK game with a 225 @ 2700 fps, that same bullet @ 2900 fps or a 250 gr @ 2700 fps isn't going to solve the problem.

So I'd say if he's set on putting a different barrel on the gun for the hunt, 350 rem mag in the lightest contour barrel he can get is the best choice.

458 Lott makes a good point...

And Dennis....Lol.

Kind of reminds me of an old saying of my dads...

"A man with experience is never subject to a man with an argument."

One of the biggest reasons I even now give the 338 RCM a second look, is because of what I have seen out of my 35 Whelen, (or as 458 Lott likes to call it, "The 350 Rem Mag").

I never "push" my 35 Whelen, 225's at 2625fps.
...and 250's at about 2500fps

That gun gets it done, everytime.

Taken a lot of game with it, including Moose, and have yet to recover a bullet.

Yes, my 358 WSM will best those velocities by 300fps.

But, does that make it "Better," than the 35 Whelen...?


In all honesty, I first "poo pooed" the 338 RCM...

I saw it as just another reincarnation of the 35 Whelen(with .338 bullets) performance in a short action.
"New spokes on the same old wheel.."


Tell ya what...
Remington had it right 45 years ago with the 350 Rem Mag.
...and Winchester "Blew it" by not bringing out the 338 WSM.

They said, the 338 WSM fell 100fps behind the 338 Win Mag...
Woop Tee Freakin' Doo....! 100fps is NOTHING.

They would have been wise to introduce the 358 WSM...it will push the "same weight" bullets as the 338 cals as fast as the 338 Win Mag.


Ruger and Hornady stepped up.

Nope, the 338 RCM will not equal the 338 Winchester Mag.

Does it really have too...?

Oh.., I am sure that a 338 WSM will best the velocity of the 338 RCM...a little.

...But until the RSAM, or the WSM people come out with a 338 caliber cartridge...the 338 RCM is the best we have in a commercially available cartridge for delivering "magnum like" velocities in a short action, compact, hunting rifle.


I think we unreasonably get our shorts all up in a knot over 200fps velocity.

With bullet weights "big game appropriate" for these two calibers, 200fps is not a whole lot.

It's the differance of about 400ft/lbs of energy at 200 yards.

And when zeroed at 200 yards, an impact differance at 300 yards of 1.5"


Another thing that is unreasonable is how we give the "Short Mags" the "Grrrrrrr" treatment....

Anybody remember the original 338 short mag, the old 33 Winchester..?

Or the "Other 35," the 348 Winchester, that replaced the 33 ?


...some good discussion been goin' on here fellas... been enjoying it.


Sincerely,
Scott

Pretty much... .

Dennis

Dennis,

First off, I hope you're doing well...didn't mean to annoy you there. :-)

I admit, I was off on the price of .338 RCM factory stuff. I was thinking Nosler Custom kind of prices ($50-$60/20) rather than the more reasonable Hornady pricing ($38.99/20 at MidwayUSA). Fine if you want to shoot the 225 gr SST at any rate. Handloading is obviously still a lot cheaper, and the difference between the RCM and WSM is all of (at most) ten grains of powder per round.

As to the "step up" question, it's pretty much the same exact issue as "stepping up" from the .338-06 to the .338 Win Mag. Is there anything "wrong" with a .338-06 in a short action? Heck no, nor did I imply that there was. But having been on the other side of the argument in a .338-06 thread, I can tell you that a lot of folks feel the .338 WM is the way to go. The .338 WSM is within spitting distance of the .338 WM with 210 or 225 gr bullets. No, I don't have one, but it's not exactly rocket science to figure out since the .325 WSM isn't too far from a .338. The .325 WSM launches a 220 gr bullet at 2840 ft/s from a 24" barrel. The .338 WSM should hit right around the same number with a 225 (slightly larger bore makes for a bit more efficiency). That's (as 358WSM alluded) about 200 FPS above any published load I found for the .338 RCM out of a 24" tube (I looked at Hodgdon and Ramshot data). Both rounds might be a bit slower with the TTSX, since it's a long bullet and takes up a bit of powder volume. No flies on the 210 gr TTSX either though. Dober has a .338 WSM, perhaps he can chime in with some of his chrono data.

BTW, you're shooting one of the 20" barrel models, right? How close are you coming to factory numbers with your handloads? From what I've seen Hornady is using powder in the factory loads that's not available for handloaders...

At any rate, the argument boils down to a ".338-06 versus .338 Win Mag" argument, except in a short action rifle. As was pointed out to me on the other thread, you can load the larger round down to the smaller round levels, but not vice-versa.

As I mentioned in my first post, my next project will be a .338-06. It should feed slickly, is cheap to reload, and I already have a donor. Works for me!

I'm doing fine, thanks.

I'm running 200 gr bullets at 2750 in my 20" Ruger .338 RCM. The 210's TSX's I'm running about 2650 for hunting, because those are more accurate than the faster ones I've developed so far. I can run 210's at 2750, but the ones I've built so far are not very accurate. 225's I'm running over 2600 fps, but I haven't done much work with them yet. I'm fairly confident I can get close enough to factory numbers to mean little one way or the other -- I certainly have with my .338 Federal, though the first couple of years it was out "everyone" said I couldn't.

FWIW, I never bought the .338 RCM with the idea it would "beat" the .338 WinMag. I looked the information over and it was pretty clear this was a short-action .338-06+, and that struck me as a really good thing. I don't worry too much about what advertisers have to say, because it's pretty easy to tell what they are trying to do. Despite all the advertorial commentary, the rifle and cartridge themselves seemed really worthwhile, so I bought one. Have yet to buy or fire a factory shell in it, so I don't know how that works... .

Good luck with your .338-06. I've run a Whelen since 1993, and think the world of it. I'm not sure but what the .338-06 cartridge may be marginally better, for whatever that may be worth.

Dennis

Roedale Precision

Look under 9,3:

9,3RSM (Roedale Short Magnum) = .366 WSM

Rifle loon in all countries - UNITE.

There is nothing not done.