I was watching a program the other night on the National Geographic Channel called Hunter and Hunted. It was about Kodiak Brown Bears attaching two hunters on the islands. The two guys were attached by two bears back in 1999/2000 IIRC. One was attached by a 700 plus lbs. male bear and the other was attached by a 250 to 300 lbs. female bear. The guy that was attached by the 700 lbs. male bear died a short time after the attach. The guy that was attached by the smaller female bear was hurt pretty bad but lived.

A guy with the Alaska Fish and Game (not sure what the real name is) and a bear expert from Florida State University went to the scene of the attach by the smaller female bear. The guy from the Fish and Game had a Remington 870 (it was the nickel plated or some custom finish) Shotgun. The guy from Florida State had a pump shotgun too, not sure what it was though.

Is a shotgun the best choice for protection against big Grizzle, Brown or Kodiak Bears? If so, what type of slugs would be used? I would think a 45-70 Gov. loaded with some stout loads would be a better choice. However, I have no experience of any kind with the above mentioned bears. I just didn't expect them to have shotguns for bear protection in an area where known attacks have happened in the past.

NYH1!

I've never heard of people being attached to bears

I hear Brown bears prefer pump guns themselves. Better handling with the big paws. Blackies strap nickelplated wheel guns - you need one hand for the tree.

Both kinds have no use for the shotguns their dinners tend to bring - its much like a popsicle stick to them - grab, eat and throw away...

never been to alaska personally, but do know a fish researcher at the U of Washington and I guess its common to carry 12 guaage with double o buck for bear protection. As you said in your post, his is cerakota plated and has been polished and teflon coated inside to ensure absolute reliability. Im not sure if he has ever had to use it, but that appears to be the weapon of choice from what little I know.

My personal opinion only with no first hand experience! I would say "Yes" to the use of a pump, 12 ga. shotgun in the situation you describe. The idea here is to protect yourself and to not necessarily kill the bear out right. It's a lot easier to turn the bear than kill/disable him in an outright frontal assault. Later, assuming he's been hit, you can go back & finish the job with a rifle. Were I in that situation, I'd want an Ithaca Deerslayer with rifle sights. Load the magazine first with 1-2 rifled slugs finished off with about # 3-4 shotshells. Therefore, the first rounds thru the chamber are your shotshells. There is no way I'd even consider some type of auto shotgun for this. The Ithaca, as I recall, hs an enclosed receiver - loads & ejects from the bottom. This'll lessen the chances of debris entering the action and inducing a malfunction.
A number of years ago I assistant guided for a guy who originally worked for an old timer up at Chandalar Lake in the Brooks. The old guy's name was Red Adney. Anyway, I was told stories about Red and one of them was that he didn't like bears & shot any he came across. He always used a pump 12 ga. as his bear protection when he wasn't hunting them. To me, if it worked for Red, it should work for me.
One of the most humerous things I read occurs when some guy wants to know what the "best" handgun is for bear protection. I just love that one. I'm sure others will chime in here and inform me that I'm all wet. That's ok, been told that before.
Bear in Fairbanks

As a seasonal employee with ADF&G years ago, I was issued a 12 gauge pump with slugs at times, and a .338 Mag with 250 gr bullets at other times with the warning -" if you have to shoot a bear, there better be tooth marks on the gun". They were being only slightly facetious, and there were indeed claw marks on the shotgun - it had been left in the boat overnight previously and a bear clawed it. On Forest Service trail crew we packed a .375 Win Mag here in Alaska. In Idaho we were not issued a firearm, but I carried my Marlin .30-30 after bumping into a sow grizzly with two cubs where "there are no grizzlies in this area" . Yeah, right! Besides, cougars are right curious, and several times trailed us. The pack mule didn't like it a bit!

Having never had to shoot a bear with any of the above, I cannot give empirical testimony as to the effectiveness. Operative words are "had to" I've never shot a griz/brown, but have taken black bears with several different calibers, including the .30-30. Worked fine, so a .45-70 will certainly work . For my own non-hunting walkabouts, I usually either carry a 12 ga pump or a Win 94 in .30-30. If I ever get to go deer hunting on Kodiak, etc, I'll be carrying my .338 WM

I did once shoot a yearling moose high through the boiler room, just missing the spine underneath with a common 12 ga slug at about 35 yards. It missed bone all the way through and had little or no expansion judging by the same size holes on each side. The moose was in a dead run at the time and went about 100 yards before tipping over in mid-stride, all bled out. It does not lack penetration, at least until it hits bone.

I'd not worry about carrying either the 12 or the .45-70. Chances are greatly in favor of never needing either. Bear worries are way overblown, IMHO, after 40 years experience in Alaska.

That sounds like an internet story but to answer the question, a lot of gov't agencies used shotguns as they were under the impression that they are easier to use and point. Since they were seldom used it didn't matter if they worked on big bears. Now the USFWS is getting rid of the shotguns and getting 375 rifles which are, from my viewpoint, vastly superior weapons for stopping bears.

All workers in Alaska should be issued a 22 Beretta Bobcat and an undocumented immigrant to knee-cap.

Oddly enough, that's in the state legislature right now.

How did an undocumented immigrant get in the state legislature?

Oh you mean murkowski, nm.

Maybe they didn't have to show a birth certificate.

Meant the issuance of said undocumented bait immigrant to residents, to knee-cap and then out run.

I much prefer a rifle - or even a good revolver with heavy hard-cast bullets to a shotgun. I actually felt better about shotguns before I had to use one on a smaller young problem bear - and it stopped a 3" Brenneke slug, and then loped off. Two shots from a 45 Colt carbine (320 grain hard cast) zipped through about three feet of him to end the deal.

I dont know, Gene Moe, one of the guys on that show (the one that survived) did pretty well with just his knife. Hearing him tell the story is funnier than hell. He's got a great attitude. Oh and his knife still hasnt been cleaned, atleast teh last time my wife talked to him.

Thanks guys, was just curious after watching that program.

The fishing guides I know up there use parkerized&plastic 45-70's with 18" barrels. Short and fast, won't get tangled during a 180 degree swing, and don't mind the foul weather. Most of your safety comes from being aware of potential danger and steering clear.

I know a bunch of fishing guides and none I know use a lever gun of any kind. 870s and big handguns rule with most. I would prefer a bolt rifle in 308 or greater capacity and Barnes bullets.

Question from someone who has NO experience stopping bears-
Wouldn't a Remington 760 pump in 30/06 stoked with Barnes or Nosler bullets be far superior to the 870 12 gauge?

Royce

Good question!

No....a 30 caliber bullet is not exactly considered a bear stopper. Sure you can kill a bear with an '06, but to stop a charge?.....doubtful, unless you're real lucky!

For shorter range bear protection using a shotgun it would be hard to beat a 9-shot Mossberg 590A1 with XS Ghost Sights loaded with hardened Brenneke Short Magnum 1 1/4 ounce slugs.

The special Special Forces or Green Lightning hardened slugs are made for maximum penetration and from what I recall show penetration of 35 inches in ballastic gelatin. Published figures show a muzzle velocity of 1,420 FPS with 2,350 FT/LB of energy. Apparently the Special Forces and Green Lightning slugs are identical except for the outer coating color (one red while the other is green). One is just marketed towards hunters while the other is marketed towards law enforcement.

http://www.brennekeusa.com/cms/special_forces_short_magnum.html

Far as a rifle, like others have mentioned it's hard to beat an old 'tried and true' .375 H&H/Ruger..

If lived in Alaska, bear protection for me would be any flavor 375 CRF bolt rifle w/ express sights firing 300 gn SAF's, NP's, or Woodleigh weldcore's.
A nice 454 Casull firing 335 LBT's in a left side cross-draw rig for SHTF final backup.

Gunner

I would certainly prefer the 760 if it was really needed for bear stopping... But there are far more 870s already out there, or available cheap than 760s... The Amish machine gun has never really taken hold in AK.

Obviously the voice of someone that has never used one. I carried a 300WM as my back-up rifle for years. It is all about placement and bullet construction. The difference between '06 and WM case capacity at staple gun ranges is less than moot.

non-sequitar alert!
non-sequitar alert!
non-sequitar alert!


Sorry, Mossberg is not a brand I would ever consider for protection.

And I find the fact the US military is forced to use second-rate gear offensive.

And if you actually carried that afield you would hear lots of deserved snickers...

Hunting moose in bear country w/a 375 would draw snickers?

Gunner

Can't you get equal or better results with a stoutly loaded 45-70 or even a 450 Marlin?

Thanks, NYH1!

Nope... A 375 is a fine choice for overkill just about anywhere in AK, but the comment started in relation to bear protection and INCLUDED a large handgun in a chest holster. Most folks think of bear protection as a seperate function from hunting as you would obviously have some type of firearm while hunting.

Why would you bother to bring a handgun to a rifle fight; or a knife to a gunfight and so on? Instant access is far more important than any other detail if you actually need to stop a bear and most folks would find themselves worn out packing that much iron.

Further, the comment about CRF as some magic thing for bear back-up is a bit funny, too.
art

Yes....yes ....you can do the job with a lot of different combinations but why?

If I'm paying the price of today's hunts or messing around in big bear country, it would be with nothing Mossberg.

Although I've taken a few small to medium bears with 12ga slugs, I much prefer a rifle and the most reliable rifle I can get loaded with premium bullets. I know how to completely strip my rifles to clean out mud/snow/ice....including bolt stripping. A wave hits teh Zodiac as you are getting out and you and two rifles are knocked down in surf and sand.....rifle cleaning time.

Once again: 1.Rifle Reliability....2. Bullet Placement...3. Bullet Construction....4. Caliber/Cartridge

I don't carry handguns when hunting and would rather have a couple sandwiches in my pocket. I don't even like handguns in camp unless I know the owner very well and everyone I know well would never carry a handgun while hunting.

I wear a sidearm at camp or doin chores here on the farm, weight isnt a factor w/me.
Ive had enough feeding bobbles, failure to fully eject a fired casing to rely on nothing but CRF rifles hunting anywhere dangerous game may be whether Alaska or Africa.

Gunner

Sitka Deer
Thanks for chiming in- If I remember correctly, 458Win (aka Phil Shoemaker) at one time used a 30/06 with 200 grain partitions when he was guiding. I believe he has been in on at least two or possibly three bear kills

A bigger bore might make you feel better but It's bullet placement and bullet performance that kills bears.

Bear protection often involves things not even related to hunting, so while I prefer to carry a compact, reasonably light rifle, I sometimes carry a well loaded revolver. (I have learned that a good revolver -*which I'm well practiced with*- on my hip, is preferable to a great rifle lying 50 feet away when its needed.) I have gotten over, and no longer have much faith in, "shock and awe" (short of whale-bomb tipped spears ) and nowadays opt to side with making deep holes in appropriate places. One simple, well-placed hole can readily bring down a bear, while a tremendously powerful shot, less well placed, can achieve next-to-nothing good.

On the heels of what Phil said though, I suppose my post is redundant.

I guess I was alluding more to the "Average Joe", not someone more experienced like yourself or .458Win. How could one really know how "cool" they would be in a charge situation in order to place that well constructed bullet where it needs to go. Not everybody hunting out there can shoot what they carry very well even without pressure.....so maybe it doesn't really matter what they're carrying.

The idea that less-skilled individuals should use even larger rifles is both funny and sadly, the way things too often are.

Extra recoil will greatly increase the time between shots with competent shooters... It will not speed up a loser...

Yes, I agree with you....but it's what you see more times than not. I work with a guy that thinks a .338WM is the minimum he needs to carry to kill a moose. It took him 4 shots to kill a cow at about 30 yards last Fall.

The only reason I have ever had to wrinkle wounded bears out of the pucker brush is because of "average joe" hunters who chose large caliber rifles which they were afraid of and could not shoot well.
I would rather guide a client who showed up with a well worn 30-06 that he was familiar with than someone with a new 300 or 338 Ultra-mag, 375 H&H or Ruger , 416 of any flavor or 460 Wby.

Yes you would and I agree with you as well....but isn't hunting them when they are unaware different than having to stop a charging one? Don't take me as criticizing...sometimes I just like to debate.

Here's a hypothetical question on Alaskan Bear protection. How would a 16" barreled Springfield Armory M1A with a 20 round magazine loaded with 180 grain hunting bullets work on the Bruins up there?

I'd especially like Phil's opinion on this:

http://springfield-armory.com/armory.php?model=22

P.S. I'm not planning a trip to Alaska antime soon

I've read the 16in guns weren't reliable. An M14 doesn't have an adjustable gas regulator, it is designed for 147-150gr bullets. It is an open-top action, that fills up with crud.

I'd pick an FAL for a gas-gun. An 18in Para version. I'd avoid the standard stock as they have a rediculously long LOP.

What the hell do bears need protection from?

For crying out loud... now I'm not going to sleep tonight.


jeesh.

It would work just fine. I carried an M1 Garand for a short while as well as a 500 Beowulf but for me they just didn't feel right as a hunting rifle.

That's kinda funny coming from you Fred, because that's the exact reason I bought one of them things!

I likes it as a camp gun.

And that's funny because that's the same "discussion" I had with our 1D10T friend Murph over there.

Yep. Ol' what's his pockets here always said:

Placement, Boolit, Cartridge.
He mighta been on to something.

The more I see of Murphy's writings the more it cracks me up... And those sycophants calling him "professor"...

The best gun for bear protection is the one you have in your hands when a bear attacks and you can hit a moving target the size of a softball at 10 to 15 yards with it.

I've never been a fan of having a gun specifically for "bear protection". I believe I am a lot more likely to have my hunting rifle in my hands when a bear attacks and I better be able to use it to defend myself. Low powered scopes that you can shoot with both eyes open or iron sights are the way to go.

Try this and see how you do: Take a thicker balloon and fill it about a third full with water and a third full with air. Don't fill it all the way so it has some stretch to it. Hang the balloon from a tree branch with some string. Have someone get it good and swinging over an arc of a couple feet. The water will slosh around and cause erratic side to side and up and down movement in a manner I believe is a decent simulation of a bears head moving as he charges (my esitmation is only from one in person charge and a few internet videos, so it might not be perfect). When your swinger clears, draw your rifle or pistol from where you'll likely have it when hunting. Try hitting that balloon at 10 yards in under two seconds. Now consider how well prepared you are to defend yourself from a bear charge.

I put over 500 hundred rounds through my duty pistol every year and that is barely enough to stay proficient at the level that I could hit that balloon in the non-stressful conditions at the range. Sadly, I put a lot less rounds through my hunting rifle and I'd be lucky to hit that balloon a third of the time. It's my opinion that the argument of what is an acceptable caliber for bear defense is largely irrelevant because the vast majority of hunters, myself included, will likely not be able to hit a bear in the stressful conditions encountered when it charges. My recommendation is to pick a familiar and comfortable rifle and practice, practice, practice.

Everyone "professes" something!

I'm going to get on that as soon as I finish my "lightening dodging" training.

People really love to worry about bear attacks...

[quote=Kay9Cop

Try this and see how you do: Take a thicker balloon and fill it about a third full with water and a third full with air. [/quote]
What is the other third?

Why, of course, baloney.

All of my time in Brown bear country was spent with a 30/06 and 200gr Partitions.

Were you ever killed by a brown bear for want of a bigger cartridge?

I've been trying to get eaten,for alotta years...but haven't been able to pull it off yet.

Have toted AR's,Mini's,M1A1's,HK-91's,Garands and a plethora of bolt guns,wheel guns and self-shucker pistoles. Boolits matter more than headstamps and too many are looking to purchase practice and that simply cain't be did.

All Time Favorite? S&W 422 22LR.....................

If you're real lucky, you wouldn't have a bear charging you in the first place.

That's the truth.....and that the only bear attack one will encounter is a freight train charge.

I couldn't agree more.

In 30 years of hunting I've only been charged once. In 21 years on the job I've only been in a deadly force situation twice. Just because either doesn't happen often doesn't mean there isn't a need to practice and be prepared. It only takes one miss at a critical time to get seriously injured or dead.

I have to agree with Steelhead on this one. If you know how to shoot the 30-06 with 200-220 Partitions will work just fine. The world record brown bear was taken with one and I have used mine to stop close range charges. Althought I have posted this photo before it is me with a brown bear I had to wrinkle out of the pucker brush two years ago after a client wounded it. It charged from 20 feet away and my 30-06 with 220 partitions worked again.

Darn it, Phil. There you go putting forth real world experience.......this is the internet for crying out loud; where opinion trumps experience!

Jeff

This Alaskan relies on an FN-FAL that's been rebarreled to .358 Winchester.

A semi auto carrying 20 rounds of 220 grain .358 evidently is enough.

I'm of the Dan'l Boone mindset


I likes to grin em down


who's the yahoo that piped up about practice?


that has to be a serious waste of time, when you could be cruisin the gun store lookin at all the options available.


protection of any kind whether humans or bears comes down to 3 things

can you stay cool enough in the heat of the moment to reliably and accurately use the tool at your disposal?

if you can, is the tool at your disposal adequate for the job at hand?


if the above two are met, is the small part of the tool you're sending downrange up to snuff?

Phil, what do you consider proper placement? I cannot relate to the size since all I have ever dealt with are black bears but how high is the head on a big bear? Would you be inclined to try to put one in the head or are you just going center mass of what is offered trying to stick one into the heart/lungs?

Biggest bear I have ever dealt with is about 350-400pounds but when he showed up at a dying rabbit call and I was holding a single shot .223 in my hands it was not a good feeling.

Have never hunted bear--but I do know shotguns. I can't imagine anything short of a couple of Africa's Big 5, not being QUICKLY distracted by a face full of 12ga. 3 1/2"mag-#2 steel shot. If its trying to kill me, I could care less about a humane kill shot. IMHO

Distracted? Probably...

I would like more to rely on, though, than 6,8 mm 29 gr. pellets.

I prefer 400 gr GS Custom FN .45/70 guiding in bear country.

Just me - milages vary.

Always figured something along those lines would make a great tent load. I often keep a 12 around loaded with one or two cheap lead loads for splatter and noise "education loads". No sense allowing them to think there is an undefended opportunity. An educated bear may not make the best hunting opportunity later on, but he'll most likely get bigger due to less human interaction along the way.

I know a slug load was mentioned in another thread, "devastator" or something like that was way ahead of every other slug on the market. My LE experience with 00 buck was less than inspiring but most of what I have seen was with the low recoil stuff. I guess I dont have the faith that a couple hundred feet faster would make a difference.

In reference to the Amish AK as Sitka mentioned earlier I would have thought the pumps in .35 whelen would be about perfect but Im guessing it is a reliability issue.

I'm thinking a quality AR10 in 338 Federal loaded with TSX's might not be a bad companion.

I would go the route of Kurt Russell in "The Thing". Light that stick of dynamite, yell derisively at the bear "yeah, well f*ck you, too" and toss said dynamite!

Of course, the best defense in bear country is bringing a a buddy who is fatter/slower than you!

Seriously, I've thought of asking this question myself as I often backpack in areas where there are bears (black and grizzly). I have a Win 1300 but have often wondered whether that was the best defense or a large caliber rifle or handgun.

I've often wondered just how much of a risk there really is of bear attacks. I've also heard some folk touting the efficacy of bear spray over other weapons. With no experience, I couldn't separate the bull from the schit.

I imagine being alert to your surroundings is the best preventative medicine but I always thought that I'd hate to end up that one-in-a-million statistic guy on the news. You know, the last thing going through my head as the bear's teeth breach my cranial vault being..."geez, what are the odds?".

In my case it really only applies to when I'm backpacking. Obviously, when I'm hunting I have a suitable rifle but when I'm packing it in I'm often going light and am carrying photo equipment.

So what do you experienced bear guys recommend for carrying when you're not hunting? Shotgun, handgun, rifle, spray? Or is it really a moot point given the rarity of actual attacks?

Odds are slim - and common sense can significantly reduce risks further. Thats true.

I guess, it is a personal thing. Do you picture yourself rolling over and be mauled, thinking about odds or do you picture yourself having the means to defend your self?

To answer the question - firearm.

My expirience is limited to 6 weeks per year in bear country since 2007 - working for an outfitter, though, who lives in the bush and has done so for over 50 years. So, I just watch, what he does and follow course.

Rifle (Marlin .45-70 Guide Gun, shorted to 16.5" barrel) at hand and at the very least close by at all times.

Handiness of the device is the key feature ensuring above while doing chores, splitting wood, building camps, cutting trail...

And who'd thunk - there have been times where he would have contempleted odds, if not...

I had a 7600 in 35whelen and loved it. barrel was cut short, decent sights and glass. damn thing worked great, I just wouldnt ever carry one. Problem is I screwed the pooch with it. I admit I screwed up. I punched a blackie with it and when I went to extract and chamber a new round, I short stroked it and jammed the hell out of it.

Nothing wrong with the rifle but I figured if I did it once, I can do again. I miss that rifle. Human error is a b!tch.

Take your shotgun, if you have one, and get some slugs and shoot it at a stump, and you'll see they wont penetrated more then if you shove your pocket knife into it. Because a shotgun slug has a huge diamter... almost 3/4" and travels slow so it is hard for it to penetrate. A .45-70 is much better, and with stout loads its ideal. Even better would be a .375 H&H.. but i've read of bears being immune to the .375. Best would be safari type rifles - .416 rigby, remington, taylor, ruger etc. or even better 458 win mag or 458 lott.

Sure a 12 gauge shotgun is better then your hands, but it's asking for trouble. remember bears can spring up to 30 mph, that means if he's 100 yards away and wants to come up on you, he'll get there in under 3 or 4 seconds, you will have time to get off 1 shot maybe 2... so you want the most power possible.

Your better off with a .30-06 or .300 win mag with 250 grain bullets, than you are with a 12 gauge shotgun

Polska
Don't you feel just a tad foolish contradicting someone like say... I don't know... Maybe someone like Phil Shoemaker? You know, like, someone not guessing?

Maybe someone that would never write something like the guessers that you are guessing about writing about bear imunity to the 375?

That is some strange fantasy stuff you have going on there for bears... and just an FYI... 30mph equals less than 59 yards covered in 4 seconds... and assumes the bear starts at and maintains that the whole way... Step away from the Kool-Aid.
art

You didn't mention going to the latrine, so I figure the three dots (...) was an abbreviated sort of "etc.", and thus included other acts as well

Spent more than a couple of days hunting the low and high country around Tustemena Lake. On those occasions where a cabin was available, the latrine (read broken down, doorless outhouse)was usually a bonus.

I remember one occasion up at Emma Lake where a pard was using the three-sided outhouse lying to the east side of the cabin. Understand, this cabin is located just under treeline and has two main trails leading to it. The trail adjacent to the latrine (it passes very close!) leads down to Indian Creek. This creek is loaded with Coho Salmon at this time of the fall. The opening faces the cabin, offering only it's covered back to the down trail.

We had black bear hams hanging in the screen room and I wanted to check on their temperature as it was mid day and warm. As I opened the cabin door, I heard a sound that SHOUTED bear! I grabbed the rifle and peered over towards pard, who was sitting as if frozen in place. He wasn't twitching his brows or blinking his eyes! The large mass of brown that was snorting less than three feet away seemed bent only on shaking it's head from side to side and vocalizing it's distress! Green slober was flying out of it's nose in sprays!

I must mention here that pard was armed with his two-seventy stoked with 130 grain projectiles. The problem was that the total length of his Ruger was somewhat wider than the inside of the house. With his knees (he's over 6' tall) out where the door would have been and the rifle on his lap locked in place and unmovable, he was done. The good news was that this moose had inadvertently ended up with a 2 foot long piece of straw up it's nostril and was only interested in an extraction of same. Of course pard couldn't acually SEE the critter, it was just out of eyesight!

I always find amazing the "ground shrinkage" that takes place once reality comes into play in situations like these.

Not a word needed said as, with problem solved, the moose wandered by the cabin in full view of pard. I did not desire to contemplate the reason behind pard's red-faced blush, nor was I brave enough to bring up the matter again. Sometimes, it's the un-spoken word that speaks volumns, eh?

So here's the hypothetical: you are Pard. You are sitting on your fundament in an overally small, three-sided outhouse, blind to naught but the sight of a cabin, 10 yards in front of you. Then the bear comes. You cannot make it to the cabin! What kind of weapon do you put into play as a stopper? How do you react to this threat? What precautions did you take ahead of time just in case this moment could possibly have occured?

bhtr

- good story.

Pard already had taken care of the most important precaution for such an event - lowering ones skivvies.

Perhaps one should cut view holes (and gun ports) into all sides - and a 200 lumen Coleman lantern on top of the house - directable from the inside.

Going to the loo is certainly to be included into the list of things above - can get downright perilious.

To answer you question -

I use the full force of propulsion setting off my fundament on hearing the noise to execute a barrel roll out the open front of the outhouse coming up homed into the direction of approach with my Marlin .45-70 ready. Somehow a Surefire always gets entangled to the forestock of that thing - in its light I watch the martens fighting.

Then I get blinded by the light from the cabin...

best,
bhtr

I bet you had to wrinkle out your shorts after confronting that brute. What's the stats on that thing Phil?

He measured right at 28 inches and with no streching 9'10"

I have no problems with Phil Shoemaker a.k.a. 458win. I'm not contradicting him. I think he knows way more about bears and hunting them then I will probably ever know unless i move to alaska and live there the rest of my life... which is a dream at this point. I've seen videos of people shooting bears with .375's and them not going down right away.. .and it makes sense, the .375 only shoots a 300 grain bullet, thats only a little bit larger then a .30-06. Bears don't need super fast bullets, they need moderate penetartions with big bullets that will do maximum damage for a humane kill.. don't bitch at me cause your not man enough to shoot a .416 or larger. I laugh when i hear about all these hunters going to alaska or africa with .338's or .375's... because they are afraid of recoil. It's all mental weakness, you need the courage, and fortitude and passion to practice and master a big bore. If you can't shoot a .458 lott as good as your .22, and your planning to hunt the most dangerou animal in the world... then you are stupid as hell and asking for trouble. You wouldn't change cut down a tree with a hacksaw would you? I mean you could... you could kill a bear witha .22 also. I didn't even read what Phil Shoemaker's comments, I just read the original post and commented. You can disagree with me but you don't have to get nasty.

Where do you get these 250 grain .308 caliber bullets?

I have a friend who is a salmon fisherman in Homer. I asked him once and he told me that whenever they go ashore, they carry Mossberg mariner shotguns with slugs. I asked why every time I see someone in Alaska walking around, they are carrying a Blackhawk. He said it was better than throwing rocks but if you knew you were going to run into bears, you were stupid not to carry a shotgun.

Barnes used to make them in cup 'n core construction - back when that's all they made.

Pretty tuff find these days. Last box of factory ammo I bought for my 300 Winny were topped with them.

Damn nice bear, I bet your hunter was very happy that you were able to recover it for him.

Polska
Actually, you were contradicting Phil. And did it again.

Oh, I have shot a few bears... and used a number of different rifles and cartridges to do it. And I have backed up bear hunters a whole lot of times. I have even shot bears coming in hard and fast.

If you read more and post less you may learn something. Guessing and giving out bad advice is not making you look better. Courage and passion is somehow not what I think of when I go to the range...
art

Geeezus, now he's telling us 338's and 375's are not efficient bear guns. Glad I sold my 375 H&H then..........lol

You guys need to quit arguing with Polska. He has firsthand experience in these things. He watched all those videos firsthand.

"His Master's Voice?"

Guns for bear protection in Alaska??


I think the bears can protect themselves just fine.

In the early 70's I saw a few guides with shotguns and 10 years later most had gone back to the bolt action rifle in .375H&H or a .458 Win mag. Onw or two I spoke to even carried a short barrel 30-06 with 220 grn bullets in the magazine. A .338 Win mag with 250 to 300 grn bullets will certainly curtail any charge by a bear if your accurate enough to hit the target and have nerves of steel!!!

Polska the fastest bear in the world can not cover 100 yards in 3 seconds, just so you realize. However, a bear can sure as hell cover 40 yards in less than 3.5 seconds from a standing start. There are very few big game hunters who could shoulder a rifle and stop a charge with "1-shot". This takes a very experienced guide like a Phil Shoemaker, who has been there many times..........under pressure in the do or die situation.

You should, because it seems like you lack a lot of it.

You might try the posture of a student for awhile. I think that might work better for you. You can "know" some of these guys even without meeting them if you take the time. You may not like everyone, but many are worthy of some respect even if we're not all likable. Try it out. It's the internet, but we can still act like human beings.

Thank you, Sir. True words.

I cannot help you if you refuse to listen...

"How could one really know how "cool" they would be in a charge situation in order to place that well constructed bullet where it needs to go. "

Actually, there is a way. After the first time it's like riding a bicycle. But with more adrenaline.

I can personally speak to only half of it, having never had to actually pull the trigger in said situation. The bears were only foolin'..... and time slows waaaay down....... but then I don't go around deliberately antagonizing them by poking non- lethal holes (or any holes in the case of browns) in them either. YMMV

Listening to a city punk like polska would get us all killed...wearing a suit of chainmaille, holding a spear in our cold dead fingers. I guarandamntee you Poska would cry like a sissy if she shot a .458 Lott. Nice imagination though, moron. The crap you dream up boggles my mind. Keep watching videos and using that first grade imagination. Flinch

but he's seen the video and he's saving up for his first big gun...

In my experience recoil tolerance is inversely proportional to the amount of bragging done...

Yep.

I hate it.

You hate "recoil tolerance?"

Give me a call on the morrow' if you have the opportunity...

beerhuntr

10-4

Polska is a F&S maroon. Why bother?

I had never paid attention to it before... Did not realize until this thread it was a waste of time.

Hey Sitka, did you get the chainmaille skivies I sent you for Christmas? If you wear it over your fur lined jock, your giblets won't get cold Flinch

Cool. Now he (or his loved ones anyway) can look forward to giblet gravy, or would that be giblets and gravy?

Not sure I like folks talking about MY giblets that way...

yes he does Mark, I think he's just a hater kind of guy.

I don't think of myself as recoil sensitive, I don't really mind shooting my .338 or my pards .375 at all

pard's .416 wasn't too bad, other pard's .458 Lott is a "lot"

I've crawled in the brush after wounded bears

faced down a few charges with finger on the trigger, and one time unarmed just waving my arms (turns out I can't fly no matter how hard I flap em)

but seeing my pard sight in his .458L made me laugh and wonder out loud, "how much more tore up could he get wrasslin a bear vs. that rifle"


that's a funny SOB to see someone shooting off the bench (if you ain't the one shootin it)


he's as handy as most folks I've seen with a .375

but that 458L is a step up from there if I can believe these lying eyes of mine!

Pard's 416 Taylor (with steel butt plate) left me with a bruise.

The domestic sympathy was "well, what'd ya expect".

Sheesh!

Randy,

I assure you there was at least 3/128ths inch worth of rubber coating over the butt end of the Taylor...shoulda been enough for any mortal

It was somewhat comical to witness ole bender going through that series of gyrations he managed after pullin' the trigger on that one! Sorta reminded me of his bull-toss-me video

best,
beerhuntr

Klik,

Guess that answered your question, eh?

bhtr

I'm thinking the chainmaille might prevent mastication of those giblets, though perhaps they would still feel pretty macerated.

I'd have danced except I was in shock!

It seems that we are talking about rifles for guiding for bear, and guns for bear protection while guiding for fish. Two different applications.

I would think that an 18" .45-70 Marlin Guide Gun would be easier to carry over your back while fishing, than a 9# .375 H&H.

If I ever fish in AK again, I will pocket carry my SS 28oz ported Taurus 2 1/2" .41mag with 250gr Fed CastCores. It's little and it's loud, but it ain't no .454. More better than a sharp stick, though.

This story has been posted before, but "bears" repeating. It is worth going to the site to see the photos.

http://www.peninsulaclarion.com/stories/080709/out_478669517.shtml



Photos Courtesy Of Greg Brush
The claws of a large male brown bear that was killed by Greg Brush after the bruin charged him last Sunday less than a quarter of a mile away from his home off Mackey Lake Road.


Brush stands in the woods to illustrate where he first saw the bear when it charged him as he walked down the center of the gravel road. The bruin's final resting spot is evident.


Friday, August 07, 2009
Story last updated at 8/7/2009 - 1:26 pm
Soldotna mans brush with bear too close for comfortBy Joseph Robertia | Peninsula Clarion
Last Sunday a fourth brown bear for the year was killed in a defense of life and property (DLP) shooting, and there is no mistaking that it was the former, not the latter, that was on the line for the man who shot it.

"I'm not trigger happy, and I wasn't looking for trouble," said Greg Brush, in regard to the incident that took place along Derks Lake Road, off Mackey Lake Road, outside of Soldotna.

The morning started casually for Brush. He had the day off from guiding king fishermen on the Kenai River, and with hunting season fast approaching, he decided to take a walk to start getting into shape.

"My wife and kids had other stuff to do, so I went alone and took the dog," he said, referring to his German shepherd.

In addition to his canine companion, Brush also decided to take a handgun -- a Ruger .454.

He was fortunate he did, but Brush said it was more than luck than made him opt to carry the pistol. It was a recent history of run-ins with brown bears -- as many as 13 last summer, and several already this season -- that made him decide to take protection that day.

"I've had a bear greet my wife at the base of the front steps, popping it's jaw from 10 feet away. In broad daylight. I've had a sow and two cubs chasing my dog on the front lawn, and had two cubs walk past the kids on the trampoline. And, recently I had bears pull down my bear-resistant garbage can," Brush said.

Back on April, 18, 2005, a jogger also was mauled by a brown bear, roughly 400 yards from where Brush had the run-in with his brownie. All of these factors played into him packing a pistol, but he said he still thought he would never have to use it.

"I just never thought it would happen to me. It's one of those things you just always think happens to somebody else," he said.

However, less than a quarter of a mile from his home, Brush heard a twig snap behind him. He whirled his head around and saw a huge bruin burst from the woods less than 20 yards away. It moved straight for him.

"It came with zero warnings. There was no woof, no jaw popping, no standing up. It just had its head down, ears back and was in a full charge," he said.

Brush's dog was roughly 50 yards in front of him when the bear made it's move, and it ran home frightened. Brush was on his own, and he said he didn't have time to think. He just instinctively reacted.

"I drew my gun and just started shooting in its direction. There was no time to aim. I don't know where the first shot went, but I think the second or third shot hit him. I rolled him at about five feet away," he said.

But, the bear had so much momentum behind him from the full charge, that once it rolled over from being hit by the 350 grain bullets, he still slid several yards across the gravel road, and just a couple of feet from Brush.

"He skidded to a stop about 10 feet beyond where I was shooting from. I actually side-stepped him and fell over backward on the last shot. His momentum carried him past where I fired it from," he said.

"From the time I saw him, until he skidded past me it was seconds, and I'm not exaggerating or fabricating anything," he added.

The Alaska Department of Fish and Game investigated the incident and confirmed the scenario played out just as Brush described. They also were able to glean information about the bear, which may have led to it making such an aggressive move toward Brush.

"It was a big boar, roughly 15 to 20 years old, but in poor body condition for this time of year. He was very thin and had significant tooth wear," said Jeff Selinger, area wildlife biologist with the Alaska Department of Fish and Game.

Beyond these biological attributes, Selinger said it is difficult to pinpoint the exact reason the bear may have charged, although he pointed out that often bears that have lost their fear of humans have done so by gaining food rewards associated to humans.

These could include improperly stored garbage, the contents of unsecured freezers, food for pets or livestock not properly cleaned, salmon eggs left out to cure for bait or bird seed left out all year, just to name a few.

However, Brush was emphatic that he and nearly all his neighbors work hard to minimize bear attractants.

"Over the past few years, we've taken every precaution possible to reduce or avoid this real and severe bear problem," he said.

Again, Selinger confirmed Brush's statement, for the most part.

"I've been by Greg's place several times and he keeps a very clean area, but a lot of times people doing things right pay the price for people doing things wrong. There have been attractant issues in this neighborhood in the past, and this area is a popular spot for people illegally dumping fish carcasses, so I'd almost guarantee that within a five mile radius of where this occurred there are attractants, and five miles is just a few minutes' walk for a bear," he said.

Brush said he was angered to learn this fact, particularly since if true, someone else's negligence could have contributed to him quite possibly losing his life.

"It's frustrating to learn that some lazy person on Strawberry Road, or Sterling, or wherever, could be contributing to my problem," he said.

Selinger said he is equally frustrated by the matter, and Fish and Game is trying to address this issue though a myriad of methods, of which pubic education is among the most important.

"We're going in the right direction with people understanding and making reasonable efforts to minimize attractants, but we still have a long way to go. To make this work, it is also important for people to make it clear to their community leaders that this is an important issue to them," he said.

Selinger cited Kenai, Homer and Seward as leading the way in taking steps to reduce conflict between humans and bears. These communities are involved in the Wildlife Conservation Community Program, which utilizes grant money and in-kind donations to inform residents on how to live safely in bear country, and to purchase or off-set the cost for bear-resistant garbage cans and Dumpster lids.

Soldotna also is working toward becoming a Wildlife Conservation Community program member, and Cooper Landing and Hope have similar bear programs in place.

However, Selinger said this is still not enough.

"We'd like to see this message go boroughwide," he said.

This most recent bear shooting brings the number of DLPs for the season up to four. The first DLP of the year was an adult male killed at a black bear baiting station off Swanson River Road on May 21, but Selinger could not comment further because the incident is still under investigation.

The second DLP was a subadult bear that was killed near the community of Sunrise, off of the Hope Highway, on June 25. The sex and details of this bruin's death also are unclear at this time, since the person who shot it took the salvaged carcass to the Fish and Game office in Anchorage, rather than Soldotna.

The third one was a yearling male euthanized June 26 by Fish and Game near a dwelling at the end of Denise Lake Drive, off Mackey Lake Road. The animal already had been injured. It was suffering from a gun shot wound that went unreported by whoever fired on the bruin.

In addition to these three DLPs, five brown bears -- one male and four females -- were killed during the spring brown bear hunt.

These combined numbers are a stark contrast to last year when 40 brown bears died as a result of human caused mortalities, of which 31 were DLP shootings.

As to the nine brown bears that died as a result of human-caused mortalities in 2008 that were not related to DLP shootings, one was hit by a vehicle while crossing the road, two were killed during legal hunts, two were shot by black bear hunters who misidentified them, one was a bear euthanized after it was reported and found to be mortally injured, one was a cub euthanized after its mother was shot and a home could not be secured, and two bears were found shot dead and never reported to Fish and Game by the shooters.

Joseph Robertia can be reached at [email protected].

That's a very popular area in which to get mauled.

I can think of at least four in the last few years.

But how could that be? All the experts say a pistol is worthless against a brownie, or mostly likely even a grizzly half the size of a brown bear.

Teaching point, pack a "serious" pistol, 44 or larger, anytime you are in bear country, and pack a fast handling rifle if at all possible.

hopefully the dog has other redeeming qualities...

I think the take away from that story should be that he wasn't aiming, he doesn't know where his bullets went, and he got lucky he dropped that bear where he did.

Have to agree: 12 Ga, extended mag. tube. Only thing I would change is 1st 5 rounds to the chamber 00 buck and last 3 (1st into magazine) rifled slugs AND practice a lot before you go. Stay away from the 3" unless you can handle them.

Stay away from 3" shells because they are more inclined to hang up in the ejection port than shorter ones. FWIW, a shotgun makes a fine non-lethal bear defense tool because of several possible deterrent options. Buckshot ain't worth squat. (Go soak a few bundles of newspaper and shoot them with 00 buck and green box 30-30 - side-by-side and see what you think.) I can promise you that F&G will not be happy if you shoot a bear and don't kill it. Neither will the family of the next guy who stumbles across the same animal. Purely for personal defense, I prefer a very small "long" gun. I keep an older pre-safety Win 94 16" barreled Trapper carbine handy at camp. If you carry in the event that you're covering others as well you need to consider that more distance and greater precision may be involved in case someone is attacked or seriously threatened. 50 yards could easily be where your close shots may be. I certainly don't want a handgun or shotgun under those circumstances.

I sometimes get a little peturbed at the F&G mantra harping about bird feeders, dog food and other garbage, blameing all encounters on left-outside attractants. I do realize that it is a problem many times, but for the bio to take the opportunity to blame every bear encounter on that is a little much. Twas breeding season at the time and, though J.Sellinger might think otherwise, I wonder if the quote above just might have had something to do with it? Makes me wonder...

Greg is a friend and admits he was seriously rattled by the event... But Greg is not your average dude either. He is extremely competent and serious about virtually everything he does. I suspect he was and is more than marginally competent with handguns. On closing targets the accuracy issues decline from every perspective except what the nervous mind does to you.

Having been there a number of times in situations where the bear was expected and the charge well considered ahead of time I think the fact he had little time to consider options beyond just shooting gave him the time to act very rationally under the stress.

The reverse of that would be that accuracy on a charging bear is not important... so while he does not remember what happened, he clearly did shoot plenty accurately enough. I prefer to think accuracy is important, therefore he did not spray and pray...

That's my guess, he found his front sight, he just doesn't remember doing so.

I suspect the same. My limited experience with "fight or flight" situations such as that is that people tend to either find incredible clarity of focus, or they get flustered, often into a state of panic. It doesn't sound like the latter to me, regardless of what he recalls. Memory can be rather fickle in its selectivity of what gets put into easy recall. That can be a very good thing sometimes.

I always hear people say that shotguns are worthless and then refer to buckshot and soft rifled slugs. If someone is using a properly equipped slug gun I see no reason why it wouldn't be effective. Say an 870 with rifled barrel, rifled sights and any of the proper sabot slugs available today. Winchester, Remington and Federal are the major brands that put out nice copper slugs with plenty of punch. Other smaller brands like Dixie put out heavy hardened lead slugs with incredible power. The days of only soft lead rifled slugs with mediocre accuracy and performance are over. My Browning Gold Hunter with rifled barrel and cantilever scope mount would rival alot of off the shelf rifles for accuracy and performance at 100 yds. These new sabots also hang with the 45/70 for ballistics. The Dixie Dangerous Game hangs out at around 1200 fps. but muzzle energy is almost 2800 ft. lbs. And when you're talking about a protection gun the fps is really here nor their as the Dixie 730 gr. .730" Terminator, which flies at about 1400 fps., penetrated only one inch less than a 400 gr. partition fired out of a .416 Rigby. The Terminator also blew a 3-4" wound channel. These slugs are so big that the flat mass hitting an animal is bound to tear some stuff up. An advantage of the shotgun is that more rounds can be fired off in succession than a bolt rifle. I'd imagine that a lever action would be about the same speed as a pump shotgun. My autoloader shucks out 3" slugs with ease. I feel very comfortable with my 870 over my shoulder when I'm out in bear country around here.

I'm not saying that these slugs are the be all end all for the hunting world but in protection situations and hunting situations within their usable range these slugs are giving shotguns all new life with advantages over some centerfires.

I have responded a couple of times in this thread. The response you quoted is about buckshot with the addendum about shell size which I added. If you compare a 2 3/4" M870 receiver with a 3" receiver, you will see that the port is the same. The difference is that the ejection piece is sized differently so that the rim of the shell does not hit it until the shell is further aft in the receiver. But a 3" shell still needs to make it out the same sized port. Most of the time it works just fine. If you've ever had a 3 incher hang up, however, you may have cause to reconsider the use of longer shells for defense. Reliability trumps power in DLP situations.

As for your suggestion in the use of "better" slugs. Yep, they are undoubtedly better than the soft cheap ones. Perhaps I didn't post it in this thread, or perhaps you didn't see it, but I'll post this one again.



Most people would consider a Brenneke slug of this type to be good bear medicine, and yes it was removed from a dead bear. But it was a smaller, juvenile bear taken at close range - less than 100 feet, and the shot was broadside through the shoulder area. The slug passed through most of the animal and was lodged in the muscle of the far shoulder. No major bones were broken. The bear was a summer, dry-furred animal. The animal did not drop, nor was it visibly "shocked". It was affected to the point that it began defecating as it loped, a bit more rapidly than it was moving prior to being hit. This was the seventh or eight shot I had pointed toward this animal in about a two hour period. The previous shots were all intended to drive it away without injury. Since two shots just prior to this one were used to try to drive the bear away again, the slug was the third shell in the mag, so there was only one left. Rather than reload, I grabbed another loaded weapon, a 45 Colt carbine, and went back out to make sure the animal would not cause further issues for us, especially our young kids. (From a high vantage point, we could see the bear was down and thrashing about.) Two shots from the Colt carbine - 300 grainers- penetrated the length of the animal from the shoulder through the chest and guts and out the lower belly. Both shots exited. One was a jacketed bullet, the other cast lead.

I'm confused as to the point of your story. You shot it once with the slug but didn't break any bones, probably because you didn't hit any bones. The bear runs off, though not shocked which is common with bears as they usually don't act shocked no matter what you shoot them with, and is basically a dead bear running and you shot it again with two 300 gr. somethings. Are you advocating the use of the slugs or not?

As to the shotgun reliability I've never had any problems with 3" shells out of either of my shotguns even 3 1/2" out of my 870. And I've fired all sizes of slugs.

Can a shotgun be useful? Sure. Is it the reliable weapon I want? No, it sure isn't at the top of the list.

A Brenneke is often considered a pretty decent slug, certainly not an ordinary soft slug. The example I offered suggests to me that penetration may be lacking considering it really was basically a soft tissue shot on a fairly small animal, and the slug didn't even make it to the hide on the back side of the animal.

The 870 is a fine utility pump gun. I like both of mine. The ports are the same size on both the 2 3/4" and the 3" models I have. Three inch shells do eject pretty well out of the 3" nearly all of the time.........nearly. 2 3/4" shells are a better bet reliability-wise IMO. YMMV.

I have a pretty cool 870 Clone with 12 inch barrel. It functions perfectly even with 3" loads.. Problem is when testing out penetration of even 1.25 oz slugs I was underwhelmed. 30-30 with 170 grain bullets give more reliable penetration on wet newsprint.

The other issue is when travelling with the family I like something that everyone can shoot. I started carrying a Ruger Carbine in 44 Magnum loaded with 250 grain Nosler Partitions. The recoil is low enough for my 8 year old to handle and it penetrates very well. So far it hasn't jammed after about 1000 rounds so I feel pretty good about it.

When on my own I carry a light weight bolt 358 Norma with good bullets and a low powered scope or open sights. Penetration is much better than a shotgun with slugs, it tears up more tissue and I have a lot of confidence in it. That counts for something. I also have a 450 Marlin but the 358 hits with far more authority..in my opinion..At least that's what moose think.

The only problem with rifles for bear protection, is when it's leaning against a tree 50 feet away while your fly fishing and you notice that nice grizzly 40 feet away standing up in the stream sniffing at the trout in your creel. It only has to happen once. I bought my first pistol for non government use after that. It might not have the knockdown power of a rifle, but it beats throwing a fish at him and swimming down stream.

The answer to that is, you don't do that; or if you do, you get a weapon that you won't, like this:



300 grains of .375 @ 2300

or this:



170 grains of .308 @ well...

or this:



280 grains of .358 @ 2100



320 grains of .452 @ 1550

this:



320 grains of .452 @ 1150

or this:



320 grains of .452 @ 1200

or this:


[img]http://www.hunt101.com/data/544/medium/IMG_02704.JPG[/img]

405 grains of .458 @ 1800

I've leaned (or lacking trees, laid) other rifles. These weapons are compact and nimble enough in weight to stay with me, and are chosen as desired for the conditions.

I've got a cute little rifle in 375 Weatherby too, but it sure would make fly fishing more awkward.



So if I'm wading in stream fly fishing, I just carry my 45 Super (230g Golden Sabre at 1150 fps) and take my chances.

Maybe, but, if you are too worried about bears while flyfishing, you should do it elsewhere than Alaska... Not to be mean, but there ain't a bear behind every tree. Those that are there are not waiting in wait for someone from outside to come here because they taste better.

Bears are bears. No different than any other animal. Just be prepared, if you actually shoot a DLP bear, it better have burn marks on its hide, or you are screwed...

When I was living down on the Kenai Peninsula (little town called Moose Pass) we use to do a lot of fishing and I carried an old beat up but dependable '06 loaded with Remington 220 GR CoreLokt's for Moose/Bear protection.

At shorter ranges a heavy 220 GR bullet from a 30-06 will produce a pretty good 'thump' on anything in it's path..

Can't carry a handgun in Canada,,,but this without bipod or scope is pretty handy.

250 grain Bullet at 2400fps

A 230 Golden Saber might just be a good way to have the opportunity to burn one while his wheels were still turning; not way different than using Speer Gold Dot HPs (the proverbial "flying ashtray") I think.

230 Golden Sabre's? I dunno think I'd rather have something else in the form of hardcast swc's in a backup revolver. If my rifle failed. Magnum Man

Love the notion of the backup revolver... Found mostly among the clueless. If the most common problem/fear is the gun will not be in your hands when needed, how would one expect to pack two?

Anyone worried about rifle failure needs to dump the A-Bolt, Raptor, or Mossberg and buy a little reliability... And do a lot of practicing...

Right on Art!

Along with that practice, make sure your "bear gun" fits you. I see so many guys with high mount scopes that they can't find quickly.....low power scopes, usually mounted low, or a good receiver/ghost ring sight. And please, no see-thru mounts.

Some may scoff, but I consider sporting clays shooting as a great training aid as it trains the shooter to shoulder the weapon consistently as well as gun swing for moving targets. My buddies that were/are Marines revert to their traing and get into that rediculous standing postion with their elbow on their belly etc......this might be great for off-hand stationary target shooting but lateral swing is greatly diminished.

Rossi 12 gauge SS with iron sights and a 16 inch barrel. Two brenneke 3 inch slugs will shoot left and right into three inches at 50 yards, a LOOOONNNG way for bear self defense, but comforting. Hangs on my back, muzzle down, and allows full motion but can be brought into ready to repel boarders position darn quick.

Terry

Which should not discount the use of a decent revolver with good bullets in practiced hands as "the" weapon in certain situations. You're correct in not getting bogged down in, or even distracted by, the hardware. No volume of noise or quantity of recoil ever deterred a bear with intent. Good arrows still demand a good "indian".

So please tell me O Wise One how do you carry your rifle when you're thigh deep in a stream fly fishing 10 yards from the shore? I hiked the length of the Bob Marshall wilderness by myself with my trusty 270 which was more than enough for grizzly (proven twice finishing off wounded bears when when I guided) at least the small Montana kind when you're young and immortal. Unfortunately when fishing it sat on the shore, so I'm always willing to learn ... Maybe a 45 ACP isn't optimal for grizzly, but it beats the crap out of hitting a bear with a dead fish or fly rod ...

From my experience, if a bear comes up on you while fishing, he just wants your fish. Give it to him and slowly back away. If you have to go swimming, then get wet.

Although a brown bear did grab my buddies pack one time while it was sitting on the shore of the russian. I was laughing my butt off. My buddy went after it and got his pack back...after the bear was done with it.

I just dont worry about it. If I'm in a remote spot, I'll have a rifle slung but bears are the least of my worries, although the thought is still there.

I agree, that's why I pulled a trout from my creel and talked to the grizzly, he was standing up about 40 feet from me in the South Fork of the Flathead river. I didn't know he was there until I heard a loud sniffing noise. I was about a 3 day walk South of Hungry Horse Lake in the Bob Marshall. I was prepared to throw my fish at him and go swimming. He heard my voice and moved on. I kept fishing. He paid me a couple visits at my camp that afternoon and night and convinced me to keep walking south the next morning. I had a mini mag lite taped to my 270 and stayed up by the fire that night. Best fishing I've ever had though ...

Well, actually there are quite a few folks here at the fire that have been with me around lots of brown bears. A couple years ago castnblast and I had a Kodiak bear pop out of the brush at less than 20 yards. We let the bear decide to cross the river and make a bed in sight and less than 100 yards away. I have had more encounters with brown bears in one week than most will ever have in their lives.

Seeing over 100 brown bears in one week is not all that unusual on Kodiak and other places. I believe DennisinAZ was with me when we saw well over 50 in an hour.

Being able to read a little sign when I see bears has told me most folks are making this far more dangerous-sounding than it really is... And nothing about bears pisses me off worse than some dumbass giving fish to a bear. Training a bear to take handouts is a death warrant for a bear. It also does the giver no good and only means the bear will return.

I have shot quite a few bears and been there when quite a few more died. I have had them die coming in hard. Often as not I do not even carry when fishing. There is a huge difference.

Stand exactly on what I said if I lived and worked in bear country right after my shirt went on in the morning so would one of my N frame SW's in a Safariland shoulder holster. That doesn't mean my primary arm a rifle stays at home either. I make my own decisions and always listen to good advice ,I'm still listening and alive. Magnum man

Exactly my point.

And after you actually knew something about bears and being around them I would love to see your answer.

sitka deer, you still haven't explained yourself well enuf and I'm listening. I did not advocate starting the ball, if there are other options. I was talking about using a bullet that would penetrate and hold together out of a revolver, if you had to use it as the last resourse to protect your life. A rifle of suitible caliber with correct ammunition is allways a better answer in my book for defensive action against a large predator. I would be the first to admit not having any experience defending myself from a bear.I am all ears ,speak. Magnum Man.

Treatise time, artsy.

No way do I have time for that... Spent the day in Whittier dewinterizing a boat and need to go back tomorrow to fix a reverse switch on a potpuller... and set some pots... maybe find a prawn or two in them...

All that and I tore up my office, added about 30' of shelf space and may finally get all my books where I can get at them...

But back to bears... Rarely does the hype about monster bears matter in self defense. Despite the stories big bears are almost never the problem. It is the little bastard males, newly disnefranchised from Mama and getting their asses kicked everywhere they turn that cause problems.

I have been amazed repeatedly when truly big bears are sighted at great distance... making tracks in the opposite direction, in great haste. And we are not talking about bears that have been harrassed. Big old bears in poor condition are the exception (Timothy Turdwell and Greg Brush as two examples with very different outcomes) but they are still not the super-fit, monster bears of legend.

Sows with cubs are the worst for several reasons, mostly related to conditioning. We cannot shoot them and they get used to that idea. Then they find people willing to give them food and think they can just woof at a fisherman to place an order for a shore lunch.

OlBlue and KKAlaska were with me on Kodiak when OlBlue's SIL and partner were bluff-charged by a sow with cubs while dragging a deer. The skid marks in the beach gravel where the sow put on the binders when a big shot went off at her feet were remarkable... and long! Think those bears were handed deer before?

I would suggest bluffs to real charges run way more than 20:1. If the bear looks or acts grumpy it is far better to avoid all possibility of being charged by leaving. There are bears on Kodiak that I will not fish around, and others I ignore.
art

Hi Sitka, I have some experience with grizzlies, none with brown bears and certainly nothing like your experience with bears in total. I totally agree with backing off, talking to grizzlies (so they don't mistake you for a black bear which they sometimes kill on sight), avoiding confrontation in general. I also agree that given a choice, a rifle is the best tool to have in your hands in an emergency. So my original question, which hasn't been answered is: Do you not arm yourself at all while fishing in a stream" or do you carry a pistol or revolver?

Thanks,

Chuck

I can't answer for Art, nor about Kodiak, nor a place like the Kenai Pen. IOW, I would say it depends. We fish where bears are wild and are generally trained to stay that way. However, what Art says about truly big bears and the smaller adolescent males is exactly right on. Where thing differ for us is with the sows/cubs. While the she-bears can be downright nasty in attitude, they are also extremely protective and want nothing to do with allowing human contact with their cubs. (The only think scary about them is being a cub, I think, when you watch the way they enforce compliance with "I told you to beat cheeks".) So, in our area, the best you'll do with them is to watch 3-4 furry butts rapidly depart from view.

We don't generally fish where the bears fish. We do much of our stream fishing in the tidal part of the rivers. Mostly, these rivers are unfettered in these areas by willow and alder brush so one can actually see what's around them - as long as you're paying attention. It's often find a spot and "park" there. A rifle may get laid next to the necessary gear. If it's an area that bears are known to cruise, we may carry a small flare gun loaded with a shell cracker. On those occasions when we venture up these rivers to where there is both cover and bears, generally there are several people. Often, one person does rifle duty if there is any real concern for potential problems. (This is generally assuming that the fishers are either guests of some sort, or young people who have neither the experience with bears or enough experience with guns to sort things out.) I carry a revolver when anything else is either in the way, or might create more problems due to visibility. IOW, I don't especially like to carry a revolver, it isn't a back-up to a better weapon; when I carry one, it is "the" weapon. I don't carry a revolver at all if my practice isn't "up to date" (and I can still shoot heavy revolvers pretty well even when I haven't stayed up with the practice.) Rifles make a lot of sense to me. But I don't get bogged down in hardware. I have found that a rifle worn has to be compact and not out-of- balance. 20" is a barrel length that doesn't bother me. The rifle is worn across my back. It is easily unslung by reaching back and grabbing the butt and pulling it forward. The barrel makes about a 270� arc as it swings down and back up. That's something that I've done for so long it is a natural thing, just as it is natural for me to work the bolt, so carrying one in the chamber means I've left live souvenirs in a number of places. (Let's not discuss this now. )

I am not scared of bears. If an area gives me a reason to be afraid, I avoid it. I'm not young enough anymore to believe I can prove anything by doing that.

I guess the bottom line is that it really helps to know the clients (bears) you're dealing with. It also helps to know the area. Obviously a visitor has a distinct disadvantage in that. When in doubt, I err with a compact rifle, and I use my judgement to avoid places that are trouble or appear to be that way. Take a clue from the bears. The guys at the top of the food chain aren't there because they stand their ground. Sure, they have their moments when they defend what's theirs, but when it comes down to brass tacks, they tend to "get out of Dodge." That's the answer to a long and healthy life - and they still get their fish.

The most dangerous bear situation I can imagine would be a bunch of Russian River fishermen armed with handguns, or rifles for that matter, when a bear decides to stir up the neighborhood.

That's when the nines come out, yo.

I would think a Ruger Alaskan Stainless Steel in 375 with the 20 inch barrel would be a great bear stopper.

.500 S&W, they made a model called "The Alaskan", and the .500 can take down a bear. Or elephant. Or polar bear.
Or grab a M44 Mosin-nagant. Soviets have used them to hunt polars, seals, walruses, and the like for many years now. Druganovs, 91/30's, etc.

Yup. Lots of situations far more dangerous than fishing, or berry picking even, in bear country. I much prefer bear country to "human" country.



Rather have a 480, or even "just" a 44 Mag.

I never carry a pistol when i'm hunting with a rifle, no reason for it. When i'm back packing or fishing is when I carry one and it's only there as a very last resort, like when the bear is about to take a bite of me.

Can't say how i'd react with my pistol to a bear that up close and personal but i'd like to think that I would remain calm enough to put one in his vitals before he bit me.

Everything is a situation!

On a BP rifle hunt, leaving the handgun at home is a good way to reduce weight. On horseback, either a trail ride or hunt, I always have my revolver. I've even gotten to where I no longer have to remind my wife to strap on her revolver when trail riding.

+1

CO
I do not carry more often than I do... When I do it is usually a revolver. I do not believe there are very many real attacks from unprovoked (wounded is about the only provokation that I buy) bears. They certainly happen, but bluffs are common.

React properly when you see a bear and usually you will save yourself from most grief. When bears and people get together you are hoping you do not run into a bear someone else has trained to jerk you around. The morons running the Russian River for example think doing stuff like having people haul away their fish carcasses is going to fix things... Even though the river is full of fish that will soon be creating more food than the bears could ask for in a very convenient form.

Additionally, I doubt bear spray is even remotely effective in a real charge. The numbers of "lives saved" with the stuff I believe to be grossly inflated, especially when you can find claims of bears turned at distances well beyond 40 yards. Personal experience says the stuff is a joke.

Sitka thanks for sharing your insights and experience. Unfortunately in Colorado, our grizzlies are gone. In many ways I miss Montana, but Colorado's not a bad place to be by far and I have to put my sons through college (though one's in the Rangers and will hopefully get to use the GI bill). I'll be up in Togiak with John Pete hunting brown bears this fall (my first ever guided hunt) looking forward to seeing Alaska again, it's been more than 30 years ... Once again, thanks.

Good luck in Togiak!

Do you not know how to spell attacked?

I didn't know Grizzlies had gray hair.

Now tell me you did'nt unnustand whet he sead?

Quite bein a turkie and so upitte...

beerhuntr

In my Bear Charge at 15 feet, I don't recall the sight picture.When the barrel crossed the neck I shot.

I also don't recall using the sights went I let off a few rounds during a armed Robbery.

You shouldn't be committing armed robbery!

Ain't that the truth!

How about guns for plane protection?

http://www.tacomaworld.com/forum/off-topic-discussion/57379-grizzly-bear-vs-airplane.html

One fellow with a .380 and one with a 9mm got enlightened on the hazard of their occupation.

APD officer said I two good groups.

Addendum: This past weekend, an acquaintance went bear hunting and killed a rather ordinary bear, meaning one in the 7 foot range. Knowing that he was planning to hunt bears, I had meant to ask what his weapon was, or if he needed anything to supplement his ammo selection. As it turned out, he used a 12 gauge shotgun and Brenneke slugs. At 30 yards, two shots put the animal down; the second shot "smoked" a hole through the far side, as he related things. He found the first slug against the hide on the back side. It had broken no significant bone and was not deformed. Again, a shotgun, though it can recoil substantially and starts out with a big hole, is not too much gun by any stretch and is not, IMO, an ideal choice as a bear protection weapon.

By that, do you mean the slug did not expand the way a bullet normally does?

Or do you mean that it's hard enough that there was no "detrimental" deformation?

It was hard enough not to deform in soft tissues, yet it did not exit in a soft tissue path.

Maybe I expect too much, but I want a "solid" to exit when shooting bears. Of the two bears I am aware of which have been shot with Brenneke slugs in less than two years, this makes 2/2 bears that have stopped these slugs. And I don't consider this "classic" premium shotgun slug to be a bad slug at all. I'm just not convinced that a 12 gauge has a leg up on an easier-to-manage rifle such as a 308 with good bullets. I've put easily over a dozen rifle bullets into bears. One may have stayed in one of them. This friend's bear makes 2 of 3 for this slug. I realize the sample size is small, but it's still a bit troubling if one plans for it as a dedicated bear defense gun.

The bear died and the slug left a 3/4" hole from one side to the hide on the other side. Would it have performed better by exiting?

Well, i guess (after this) all i need for that cape buff is the '06 and partitions.

i have seen the races in the action housing come out of remington autos after much less than too many rounds have been fired through them-in 06 cal to boot.

Klik- when i fished the russian and k. rivers alone i had locals loaning me their pepper spray. now i hear 18 bears were killed in defense in 08. would you guys carry pepper or also firearms and if so a pistol or rifle. was i a nut to fish alone with only pepper.

eyeball, In my opinion you were not nuts. if the truth were known, more DLP bears are killed simply because the shooter either wanted an excuse to kill a bear, was unfamiliar with bear behavior or had read Alaska Bear Tales too many times. There are hundreds and hundreds of hikers and campers who venture to our national parks here in Alaska with nothing stronger than bear spray.

thanks, 458. it's weird though. i had felt i was safe. today i read about that guy killing the bear on the russian so i wonder 'if the spray is good why wasn't he using it?'

I'm guessing if you have bear spray and a revolver on you and you feel you're about to be attacked, I'm guessing the average person will reach for the revolver, even if it's not the right decision.

I believe Phil is exactly right in what he said. I'm not a "redundant what-if" type of player when it comes to bears (though, truth be told, I tended more in that direction early on. I think it's a common characteristic of the inexperienced to over-think/theorize potential situations and plan extravagantly for them.) I have lived around wild grizzlies (bears that don't interact much with humans like they do in some parts of the state) for nearly 30 years and I've fired weapons of various types many dozens of times to avoid problems with bears; even more times no weapon at all was needed. The single bear I've DLP'ed happened just two years ago, and that was an animal that wasn't "charging"; it was simply an animal that seemed to have very bad intentions and wouldn't leave us alone even inside our cabin. The bear was a younger animal, probably an adolescent, and displayed the judgement not uncommon to younger members of many species. I have wondered if rubber projectiles might have prevented its killing, but it was an animal that took more warning shots in close sequence without "getting it" than any other I've been around over the years. Consequently, when it came back a couple hours later and the whole scene was being repeated (at 2 AM), I shot two more times before I used lethal intent. I'm sure there have been others I could have DLP'ed without any repercussions besides the paperwork that this one involved, but we have always managed to find other solutions.

Knowing the country or terrain where you are headed can be helpful in making a good choice in what, if any, weapon to take. I think it makes sense to have a single weapon to keep track of and think about. Then you pay attention, stay alert, and avoid situations that might make you become dependent only on the weapon you're carrying. Lethal bear encounters can almost always be avoided; most attacks can be found to result from mistakes in judgement and/or awareness. Neither mortal fear, nor a complacently cavalier attitude will serve you well in situations (like much of Alaska) which can get you killed. Respect works well.

that also applies to my AO. i'd bet most of the DLP shootings here happen merely because the bear wandered within gunshot range, not because the bear was threatening.

it may sound cool to say 'i'll just blast 'em with my hawgleg' but i carry bear spray, and i've used it. it works. if i carry a gun and what gun i carry is a random thing.

Bears are curious and the young ones ( like humans) have not learned what to fear or respect. I have literally had young bears walk to within 10 feet or less of me. Actually I had a cub of the year brush my leg as he was walking behind me, as MOM was 30 feet in front of me eating a fish. Just because a bear is close does not mean it is a threat. Just like a strange dog or bull, you need to be able to read their body language.
I have used bear spray on some younger bears in order to teach them a lesson about people and their response was immediate. they backed away, rubbing their eyes and nose and left the area. Like always I had a gun present but using the spray not only saved the bear but also saved me from a lot of paperwork and having to skin another bear.

they are also watching and reacting to our body language.

the ranch where i grew up was near an area where some govt. agency dumped problem bears (mostly blackies), so in the fall whan the cholkcherrys were ripe, we'd get an influx of them. we could rehab about half to 2/3 of the stupid ones with non lethal methods.

many thanks to all. at the time i new no one to borrow a hogleg from and traveled the bear trails along the Kenai with only the spray. i was lately wondering how safe i was.

Interesting read. Have made two trips up to Ak for Mountain Goats. The guide and I have become good friends and stay in touch.

He has guided more than a few Brown Bears hunters successfully and in his line of work has not only killed them on his own, but backed up his hunters. He is adamant that he will only do so if the situation warrants.

Lives in Cordova and spends considerable time outdoors in Bear country. For years he would try to find and interact with them-while carrying-for the sole purpose of furthering his education. He agrees with many here with experience that most charges are bluffs, and some of them have ended at close enough range to raise the hair on my arms just from the telling. From experience he said that you will pretty much know right off wither it is the real thing or a bluff. Ears back and head down were two of the things he mentioned. He also implied the intensity of the charge is something one leans to recognize. Full steam head-on was another thing he mentioned. His experience has told him that if they are showing you some body a bluff is more likely.

However he also said that as he gets older, and he is still not 30, he is becoming less tolerant of letting them get away with playing games with him.

The one time we went fishing "back-in" to get away from the crowded streams, he carried a S&W .500. We had to go thru some thick stuff to get there. Much of it inside "tunnels" thru the alders. I think the Ak guys will know what I mean by that.

FWIW

458 Win,



That's one of my favorite quotes......by Phil Shoemaker.

I stumbled across this thread looking for something else. You know Google. Anyway I thought I would put my two cents in for what it's worth. A very long two cents as it turns out!
First off I would like to state that I am no expert but I have worked in Alaska for 39 years, played there too. I have shot a number of bears but never in self defense.
I will briefly address a few points that have been brought up.

Calibers:
The clever little saying by Shoemaker about the 30-06 is nice but misleading. Hell, it is more than misleading, it is out and out wrong when speaking of a stopping rifle and that is what we're talking about here. Yes, 30-06 is one of my favorite calibers and is capable of taking down anything in North America in a hunting situation. I have even seen it used successfully on cape buffalo in Africa (illegal of course but laws are sometimes just suggestions in Africa). However there is a huge difference between a rifle for hunting and a rifle for stopping. The 30-06 is in no way an ideal stopper for a charging Peninsula brown bear. It is the bare minimum and the minimum is rarely ideal. Really the .375 H&H or the hot loaded 45-70 with hard cast bullets is the minimum. Me? Well it depends. For the camp gun on the Peninsula I like having my M70 .458 Win. Mag. loaded with 500 grain Barnes solids at over 2200 fps. This gun and load has dropped several cape buffalo and one elephant, all with one shot. I have confidence in it and that counts- a lot.

I really think bears, like dogs, can sense you have the upper hand. A bear, like a vicious dog, is not going to push it if he senses you are not afraid and a person that knows how to use a stopper rifle is not going to be afraid. I have chased bears off of our caribou where the trees were not high enough to keep the meat out of their reach. I just would walk in with the .458 and some stern words and a "damn you bears" attitude and they would scatter.

However I do not recommend the .458 for everyone. The first time I shot mine I thought the thing had blown up or something. Really, I looked at my fingers to see if they were still there! I couldn't believe the recoil and I had shot a lot of so called heavy calibers. It took me months of shooting day after day a few rounds per day to become proficient with it. Most hunters can handle a .375, the recoil on a well proportioned .375 is not any worse than shooting turkey rounds out of most shotguns. I think most people cannot handle a .458 well and it kind of pisses me off that these gun writers make people think that even a .458 is not enough to kill a cape buffalo and that they need a .458 Lott, with 10% more velocity and 20% more recoil. Crazy. Animals have not gotten tougher of the years and the old .450 NE was considered the ne plus ultra stopper cartridge. The .458 Win. can duplicate those ballistics and then some with far better bullets than were available in the early 20th century. Gun writers just need something to write about and to push people into thinking they need something they don't.
Of course dragging around a .458 or any rifle at times is not practical. I have an old Model 29 that I bought in the 1970s and have shot so much I have had to have it rebuilt twice. It is not the best thing for bear protection but as a friend of mine love to say, "It's better than begging."

Many individuals and government agencies are switching from shotgun which are of dubious value against a large brown bear, to Marlin 1895 rifle in 45-70 with Garrett ammo. I am not sure I buy all of Garret's propaganda about how his 45-70 ammo out penetrates a faster .458 Win. but a lot of people believe it and whether it actually does or not it is enough. If I were to buy a rifle strictly for bear protection and nothing else this rifle and ammo would be high on my list.

Pepper Spray:
One should ask oneself if this pepper spray is so good then why does ADF&G, NOAA, USF&W, etc., issue firearms to their personnel in bear country? They have the general public believing that they are invulnerable with this aerosol can in their hands. I know their reasoning. It is that they do not want these untrained yahoos shooting bears for no reason. To many government people everyone is a yahoo except for them of course.

The truth about pepper spray is that is about 80% effective when used properly. That sounds OK unless you get caught on the 20% side. A firearm, on the other hand, is 100% effective when used correctly (that is you hit where you're aiming and have enough gun for the job).

Here is a little anecdotal story about bear spray. I had my little Brittany spaniel that would not get along with my girlfriends golden. The two would suddenly break out into fights, both were males of course but still neither breed are known as vicious dogs.

So I get this not so bright idea that the next time they fight I would spray them with bear spray so that in a Pavlov's dog sort of way they would associate this nasty pain with fighting. So I very stupidly had the bear spray out and ready to waiting for the next melee. It happened in the living room. So I spray the dogs. Guess what happened. They fought harder. I mean really viciously. We had to pull them apart. Remember this was indoors. Guess what happened next? The bear spray filled the room and all men, women in dogs were soon in pain running for the bathroom and water!
I learned two things from this. First never use bear spray indoors! Second if bear spray only encourages a mild mannered Brittany to fight harder, it is not going to work on an angry brown bear. Sorry I just don't believe it. It can work on a bear that is just looking for food but not one that is in a rage. Hell it doesn't even work on some criminals that are in a rage.

You have to ask yourself if bear spray is a deterrent because it is painful the recipient ( and I can testify that it burns like hell), well then isn't a .44 magnum going to hurt and hell of lot more than pepper spray? I will take my Model 29, as underpowered as it is, over pepper spray any day. If I knew that there was going to be a bear problem then of course I would want something more. But then again if I knew, well it wouldn't be any handgun but a rifle. The Model 29 suffices just because I already own it. If I were to pick something today I suppose it would be different. Maybe a Freedom Arms .454. Probably not an S&W .500 simply because that gets so heavy one may as well carry a rifle. Really the odds of having to actually use the weapon are slim. I have even thought of just going to the S&W Mountain Gun in .44 Mag. A friend of mine has one and it may not be the nicest shooting gun but it sure is light for the power.

CRF:
If you are going to buy a bolt action rifle for bear defense get a CFR model. That is all there is to it. There is not room for argument here. For shooting whitetails or whatever it doesn't matter but if the rifle is for self-defense get a CRF. There is a reason for this it. Mauser figured it out more than 100 years ago. It has nothing to do with feeding upside down, sideways or whatever these stupid gun writers say. It mostly has to do with preventing a double feed jam which can happen in a panic situation. I have seen it happen.
Take your Remington M 700 or any other push feed bolt action and load up two dummy rounds in the magazine. Start to load one round then stop after it is half way into the chamber. Now retract the bolt and push the other round in. Voila! You have a double feed jam and your rifle can be out of commission for a while depending on how hard you pushed that second round in which is probably going to very hard in a tense situation.
Yes, I know, you have had a Model 700 since ancient times and this has never happened. How many times have you been charged by a dangerous animal? It is not for fashion that African PHs pick CRF bolt actions almost exclusively when they pick a bolt action.

There was a case a few years back in BC where two elk hunter were killed by a grizzly bear. Not a shot was fired at the bear and the widows of the two men couldn't understand this since both men were experienced hunters in grizzly country and they couldn't imagine that they would have unloaded the guns while butchering an elk. An investigation by James Gary Shelton revealed that they hadn't unloaded the guns and it fact one was used, or least it was tried to be used. It was a Browning A-Bolt, very popular in BC and a push feed. It had a double feed jam. Even experienced hunters at times can get shaken up.

There was a time when getting a CRF rifle was difficult and expensive. That time has passed and there are many models available at a reasonable price.
Finally, do I think bears are all that dangerous? Well it depends on what you're comparing them to and more where you are. I get a little tired of hearing the nonsense about you're more likely to die a bee sting than by a grizzly bear. Yes, that is true if you are in New York or most of the lower 48 since there aren't any grizzly bears and bees are everywhere. It is not true if you are on the Alaska Peninsula where there are plenty of bears and few bees except those huge furry ones that look scary but I have never been stung by one of them.

So although the odds of being attacked are small it doesn't hurt to be prepared. I work in an industry that has the highest death rate of any job in America. I am a Bering Sea crab fisherman. I don't go out thinking I am going to die or even really giving the matter much thought. However we still have survival equipment and do drills. It would be crazy not to, not to mention illegal. Still I don't carry any sort of bear protection much of the time simply because it is too much trouble. You know like fastening your seat belt on a back road. I mean I am not going to carry a gun walking to the store in King Cove even though a kid was killed right in town years back. I won't get into that incident other than to say the people in King Cove are the least tolerant of bears than any other bush village I have visited in Alaska. Suffice to say there was more to the story than was printed in the press. There usually is when it comes to bear attacks and well, just about anything else for that matter.

For those that don't take bears seriously as a real danger, well they should meet someone that has survived a bear attack. Survive is the correct word. Just a few seconds with a grizzly changes your life forever. A lot of this bravado about bears not being dangerous is just that, bravado to imply they are braver than other people and/or more knowledgeable. Actually anyone that claims grizzly/brown bears are not dangerous is an idiot. That's not my opinion but a fact.
Brown bears in Alaska are much different than grizzly bears in the lower 48. For one thing they are way larger and another they have not been hunted to the degree that the southern bears have which eliminated a lot of the aggressive gene pool from the stock. Read Lewis and Clark recollections of grizzly bears. They would attack without provocation. Rifle soon eliminated that gene pool or at least thinned it out. Bears in Alaska were never hunted to the point of extirpation.

I have a friend that was a large carnivore biologist in Montana. He would insist that all the paranoia about brown bears was nonsense because he has all sorts of experience trapping and tagging grizzly bears in Montana. I did my best to tell him that bears in Alaska were different. He wouldn't believe me and basically implied that I didn't know what I was talking about. That was before he went hunting for caribou on the Alaskan Peninsula. He came back singing a different tune. He said he didn't feel safe taking a piss outside of camp without a gun.

Still if you shoot a bear in self-defense in Alaska be ready for your vacation to be ruined. You must salvage the hide and the skull neither of which you can keep. Then you must prove the shooting was justified. This is the real reason that some agencies discourage guns for bear protection. They are afraid of inexperienced people shooting a valuable resource for no reason. Let's face it, with all the stories there are people that go to Alaska with the belief that there is a bear behind every bush ready to get them. The average person cannot tell a bluff charge from the real thing. They are just about always bluff charges. So if you go up there packing make certain you really have to pull the trigger before you actually do. It used to be 17 yards and you shoot if the bear is coming at you. I don't know if that is still the case but I do know 17 yards is damn close!
Like I said at first, I am not expert and these thoughts are mostly my own based on a bit of experience.

More horseshit in a single "first post" than I can recall...

Would you take advice from someone dumb enough to use pepper spray indoors?

CRF ultimatum... GMAFB...

The inadequacy of the 30-06...

Complete and total cluelessness about how the DLP thing works... except for those that shoot bears in the ass at 50 yards and claim they were mid-charge...

And there was lots more... But it was great laugh...
art

You read the whole post?

A better man than me.....

...was thinking a lot of likewise thoughts.

For quite a while I've believed that there are two classes of ignorant/inexperienced people when it comes to bears. Either they think bears are warm, fuzzy, and just about cuddly as long as you think nice thoughts about them. The other side has the people who seem to think that every tree or alder sprout has a bear lurking behind it and that the bear's sole purpose in life is lying in wait to ambush the first human who comes along.......and the only thing suitable for retaining one's life is something akin to a half inch pipe or better chambered for something ending in "Nitro".

Most of my defensive bear shooting by a large margin has involved shooting toward bears. I would really hate to be using something trotting 500 grain bullets out at around Mach II for such duties.

Bear defense weapons also don't fall into the same category as the "crawl into the willows after a bear that the client winged with a rifle larger than their pay/ability grade" rifles that a guide might prefer.

Wow!

I keep telling you kids not to leave the cabin door open...

Bear do not need guns for protection - they are adequately equipped as is.

That said - when we shot a bear, we are hunting, but when a bear attacks us he is agressive, attacking, nuisance, savage,...

OK, y'all. Pick the best line from the Dutch boy's offering!

Here's my fave:

LMAO!!

I sure as heck don't want to carry a rifle with a barrel big enough to stamp the caliber bold enough for them to read it. You know how their eyes ain't worth a crap.

Note to self.....don't use pepper spray in doors on dogs.

I'll play...




Right about now, I'm thinking I'd not want to see an in-depth, longish, not-brief one...

I win.

Jim, I stand by my statement on the 30-06 as I have used it on a number of occasions as a stopping rifle for big bears . But, as my comment points out, you do have to be able to shoot. this photo is the last big bear I used my 30-06 on


The rest of your comments were very good and if I know I will have to go in after a wounded bear I too like the 458.

That really sucks....not surprising though.

Yep. It was getting so deep that I had to climb up on my desk.

Without a doubt one of the best quotes I've read in some time. Hilarious! My new signature, I think.

First class post!

" Damn you Bears" sounds like a Chicago fan to me....

Bearstalker,

Where you been, lad? Not seen you post in a month of Sundays....

Are you baiting this year?

bhtr

Phil,

Is a 375 H&H vastly superior to the 45-70? What load do you use in the 375 for stopping mad bears? What load do you use in 45-70 for stopping mad bears? Thanks.

for a guide who is more likely to have to stop a wounded bear from escaping - and then having to wrinkle it out of the pucker brush - the .375 is a lot better gun than the 45-70.
With the best bullets in either caliber there is probably not much difference at rock throwing distance.

but why throw rocks even at rock-throwing distance, eh?

I was about to make a comment about how the Mosin Nagant is a push feed which was used for years under the highest levels of stress, and never had any problems with double feeds...

Then I realized the Mosin magazine doesn't have feed lips, but rather uses a cartridge interrupter which doesn't release a second cartridge until the bolt is locked closed... thus preventing double feeds. Pretty slick for a 'crude' rifle.

I don't claim to know much on this subject, but this thread has yet to fail to entertain.

The idea that some folks feel it necessary to argue with professionals, whose job btw is to understand bear behavior and how to kill them in all situations, because they went on a hunt one time. No doubt guided... It's akin to me arguing safety with an underwater welder because I went snorkelling in Hawaii once.