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458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet?

Posted By: rost495

458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 09/28/19

This should be good.

Anyway have the chance to start helping/guiding on the peninsula in the spring. I have a 458 mag I've shot pigs and deer with, 350 federal factory soft points. Have some Hornady of the same bullet I think, for reloading.

But for big stuff that needs to go down now, I lean really hard to Barnes almost all the time.

After looking, my mind says 450 barnes TSX.

I'm open to hearing suggestions though, but I don't like overly expanding bullets period and certainly not for this use. Partition even has left a bad taste at times.. But again I'm willing to hear all comers. I am no fan at all of ballistic tip type performance no matter the bullet brand....

Need to decide, work a load up and do some practice.

I do have some hard cast heavy lead that I was going to play with, big meplat, but I"m not sure thats the best choice when it might be up to me to help solve a problem.

Thanks, I think, Jeff
Posted By: 458Win

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 09/28/19

Jeff, am going through my fairly extensive collection of 458 ammo for this upcoming bear season. The factory loaded Norma 500 gr Swift ammo is only showing 1850 fps across my chronograph. Deadly I am sure but not what I want. My old 500 gr Trophy Bonded and Woodleigh Bullets are around 2050 and Buffalo Bore 450 and 400 gr loads with the excellent Kodiak bullets between 2200 and 2400 fps
Or factory Nosler 400 gr at 2100 fps.

What I have learned is that with the 458 is that with any good bullet, from 350 gr and up, is that they all work well.

As my load with the Woodleighs work well and I have quite a few, I will probably use them.
Posted By: TheKid

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 09/28/19

I didn’t like the 350 Hornady, had one leave the jacket under the hide of a Kodiak blacktail on the entry side. The whole jacket!
I switched to the 350gr Speer MagTip after that. Probably a fluke deal with the Hornady but I never had it happen with the Speer. They can be driven 2400 or more pretty easily, I used H4198 to do so.
Posted By: 458Win

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 09/28/19

I have always like the 500 Hornady bullets in my 458 and the new bonded DGX ones like I used in Zimbabwe are fantastic.
But I never found that the 350 Hornady bullets held up all that well at 458 velocities .
Posted By: rost495

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 09/29/19

Thanks for the replies.

Phil- any comments on powder with a 450ish...? Spring and fall seasons should not be extreme temps I don't think, as such almost any powder would work I think, but barnes book suggets TAC, which has been really temp stable for us in small rounds, and I like it, but any flies on a ball powder for this use? Or are you a factory ammo guy maybe ?

Thanks much for your time and input.

Jeff
Posted By: lvmiker

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 09/30/19

This site is an amazing source of experience based information. Once you learn to separate the wheat from the chaff. I don't own a 458 win mag but still enjoy the quality of knowledge available here.


mike r
Posted By: 458Win

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 09/30/19

Jeff, I have always had good luck with IMR 3031 and 73 grains easily gave me 2200 fps.
With the 500 gr bullets it's hard to beat AA 2230
Posted By: crshelton

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/01/19

The Alaska Bulletworks 450 grain FMJ Kodiak at 2150 fps worked well for us on Cape Buffalo in Africa and should work well on large bears.
They did shoot through some buff, so be sure of what is behind your bear before firing.
Posted By: crshelton

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/01/19

The Alaska Bulletworks 450 grain FMJ Kodiak at 2150 fps worked well for us on Cape Buffalo in Africa and should work well on large bears.
They did shoot through some buff, so be sure of what is behind your bear before firing.
Posted By: 458Win

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/01/19

A good softpoint puts bears down a lot quicker than solids !
Which is desirable as wounded bears can cover a lot of rugged, wet, brushy country in a short period of time and leave little in the way of a blood trail .
Posted By: rost495

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/01/19

Thanks for the replies!

3031 I have used and can use again. Was just not sure of Ball powder like TAC. Tac has worked really well for various uses since its been on the market.

But the smartest thing here i bet is grab more 3031 and get rolling so to speak.
Posted By: Tejano

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/03/19

Phil do you think going lighter to 350 or 400 grains allows a faster follow up shot, this is my recollection of the 458. This was also in the F&G report on bear rifles the 375 won points over the 458 for follow up shots in their tests.

Are there any negative trade offs for the lighter bullets assuming they are Kodiak, Woodleigh and the like.
Posted By: 458Win

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/03/19

They should but I never noticed a big difference. However I did when I used the 505 Gibbs. During a charge both the slowness caused by the long bolt throw and the additional recoils became very apparent.
Posted By: pabucktail

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/05/19

Your .505 observation confirms a suspicion from my own experience. I like the .375 and 9.3 because they have sufficient power with recoil gentle enough for true rapid fire; for me anyway. I once considered a .458 but thankfully tried one out first. I quickly determined the recoil was too much for me to shoot as fast as I felt I should be able.

Before long I plan to have a .416 Taylor made up and load it to mimic the .450/400 just to have a bigger bullet I can still shoot quickly.
Posted By: Cascade

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/05/19

Ya know - sometimes even here on the Fire, some awesome info can be had.

Thanks all.

Guy
Posted By: dennisinaz

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/07/19

Originally Posted by rost495
Thanks for the replies!

3031 I have used and can use again. Was just not sure of Ball powder like TAC. Tac has worked really well for various uses since its been on the market.

But the smartest thing here i bet is grab more 3031 and get rolling so to speak.




I use TAC in my 458 Lott, it has been the best powder I have found. I supposed it would work well in the Winchester too. I want to say 77 grains with a 450 Swift or TSX but not positive on that load. Worked outstanding in Africa. I used 430 hard cast on elk in AZ and it was perfect. I tried the 480 DGX or whatever Hornady called those abortions. They came apart in an elk and then veered off, had to follow-up a bull about 300 yards that crawled into a river bottom after a DGX failed. Maybe the new bonded ones are better.
Posted By: rost495

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/07/19

Thanks
Posted By: remingtonman

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/08/19

Originally Posted by 458Win
They should but I never noticed a big difference. However I did when I used the 505 Gibbs. During a charge both the slowness caused by the long bolt throw and the additional recoils became very apparent.


Mr. shoemaker you should write a book on your Alaskan guiding experiences and wild animal encounters. I enjoying reading about guns, bullets and hunting. I would buy a book from you. Good stuff
Posted By: Tejano

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/08/19

[quote=remingtonman

Mr. shoemaker you should write a book on your Alaskan guiding experiences and wild animal encounters. I enjoying reading about guns, bullets and hunting. I would buy a book from you. Good stuff
[/quote]

I second this idea. Those winters are pretty long which should allow some time for writing. Also just the chapter on the guns you have owned would be fascinating to someone like me. It could be in the lines of Sarber, Waugh and Whelen. I bet JB would coach you on self publishing and maybe even act as editor. (I am sure he will appreciate me volunteering his services)
Posted By: super T

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/08/19

I have never hunted the big bears, so cut me some slack if this is a stupid question. But, why wouldn't a double-barrel be a good option if fast follow up shots are sometimes called for?
Posted By: Quak

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/08/19

Originally Posted by Tejano
[quote=remingtonman

Mr. shoemaker you should write a book on your Alaskan guiding experiences and wild animal encounters. I enjoying reading about guns, bullets and hunting. I would buy a book from you. Good stuff


I second this idea. Those winters are pretty long which should allow some time for writing. Also just the chapter on the guns you have owned would be fascinating to someone like me. It could be in the lines of Sarber, Waugh and Whelen. I bet JB would coach you on self publishing and maybe even act as editor. (I am sure he will appreciate me volunteering his services)
[/quote]

The motion has been seconded...all in favor say I

Sorry Phil...your year is about to get real busy LOL
Posted By: Dirtfarmer

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/08/19

Never mind the mule, just load the wagon... blush

With friends like that... tired

DF
Posted By: TheKid

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/08/19

Originally Posted by super T
I have never hunted the big bears, so cut me some slack if this is a stupid question. But, why wouldn't a double-barrel be a good option if fast follow up shots are sometimes called for?

They’d work, Joe Want used a 500NE some IIRC. But they’re heavy, expensive, and don’t come in SS or synthetic.
Posted By: gunner500

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/08/19

No help here with a man like Phil on the job, but, were I too take my 458 for big bear it'd be loaded with either 500gr Woodleigh or Partitions, they both leave the old FN Browning Safari just North of 2150 fps, my part being done correctly, cant see where either wouldn't handily do theirs. good luck and have fun.
Posted By: DakotaDeer

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/09/19

Barnes Monos run fast.

TSX 350 would be my choice.
Posted By: dennisinaz

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/09/19

Originally Posted by super T
I have never hunted the big bears, so cut me some slack if this is a stupid question. But, why wouldn't a double-barrel be a good option if fast follow up shots are sometimes called for?


Last thing I would want to carry, as a sportsman and not a guide, is a $30,000 blued rifle that weighs 13 pounds on a bear hunt. You are far better off with a good low-power optic so you can really make your one shot count- that's all you're going to get.
Posted By: hillbillyjake

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/12/19

Put me down for a signed hardback copy of the book please.
Posted By: 458Win

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/16/19

I have been working on a couple of books and can at least see light at the end of the tunnel.
Just sent the majority of our bear hunters home an hour ago. I had to follow up and finish up another big one with my 458 last week and had chosen to use 500 gr Woodleigh softs. I was again dissatisfied with their penetration on big bears. The four hits I made showed entrance holes you could put your fist in, with lots of blown back fat, but not much penetration! I would have been better off with either TSX, Hornady's or Partitions .
Posted By: kaboku68

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/16/19

Phil have you ever had a hunter in camp with a MS 1956 Magnum in 458 Win Mag. I am just curious. They are very well liked on the African Hunting Site and was wondering on your take on mannlichers in general. There seems to be quite a few up here.
Posted By: Dirtfarmer

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/16/19

Originally Posted by gunner500
No help here with a man like Phil on the job, but, were I too take my 458 for big bear it'd be loaded with either 500gr Woodleigh or Partitions, they both leave the old FN Browning Safari just North of 2150 fps, my part being done correctly, cant see where either wouldn't handily do theirs. good luck and have fun.

How about a 500 gr. Swift A-Frame? They have a good rep in other calibers, not sure about .458 Win.

DF
Posted By: 458Win

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/16/19

I have been working on a couple of books and can at least see light at the end of the tunnel and hopefully will finish in a year once I have all the historical photos lined up
Just sent the majority of our bear hunters home an hour ago. I had to follow up and finish up another big one with my 458 last week and had chosen to use 500 gr Woodleigh softs. I was again dissatisfied with their penetration on big bears. The four hits I made showed entrance holes you could put your fist in, with lots of blown back fat, but not much penetration! I would have been better off with either TSX, Hornady's or Partitions .
Posted By: rost495

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/16/19

450 TSX are supposedly in the mail box. Too busy plowing drive and parking and cutting the skidoo trail open to make a trip to the mailbox.

Have 465 hard cast loaded with 3031 to figure out where I'm at in MV range for starters.

IMHO there are very few flies on the Barnes mono bullets these days.
Posted By: rost495

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/16/19

PS can't wait for the books. Well I guess I can actually. LOL

My buddy had 2 bears for his clients 9/11 and 10/2. Seems like it was a good fall for him.
Posted By: Cascade

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/16/19

Originally Posted by 458Win
I have been working on a couple of books and can at least see light at the end of the tunnel.
Just sent the majority of our bear hunters home an hour ago. I had to follow up and finish up another big one with my 458 last week and had chosen to use 500 gr Woodleigh softs. I was again dissatisfied with their penetration on big bears. The four hits I made showed entrance holes you could put your fist in, with lots of blown back fat, but not much penetration! I would have been better off with either TSX, Hornady's or Partitions .


Good to know. Thank you.

Guy
Posted By: ironbender

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/17/19

Other than the "overpenetration " , have never heard a bad report of TTSXs.
Posted By: Sitka deer

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/17/19

Riley put a couple LR TXSs in a fair sized bull moose the other day and they were extremely underwhelming. They were up close and personal sort of shots and they came completely apart and penetration was non-existant. That was only 7mm (149gr?) but not close to acceptable and they did terrificly bad meat damage. Not to ever be considered again...
Posted By: Cascade

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/17/19

Originally Posted by Sitka deer
Riley put a couple LR TXSs in a fair sized bull moose the other day and they were extremely underwhelming. They were up close and personal sort of shots and they came completely apart and penetration was non-existant. That was only 7mm (149gr?) but not close to acceptable and they did terrificly bad meat damage. Not to ever be considered again...


The solid copper bullets came apart? Yikes!
Posted By: Dirtfarmer

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/17/19

Originally Posted by Cascade
Originally Posted by Sitka deer
Riley put a couple LR TXSs in a fair sized bull moose the other day and they were extremely underwhelming. They were up close and personal sort of shots and they came completely apart and penetration was non-existant. That was only 7mm (149gr?) but not close to acceptable and they did terrificly bad meat damage. Not to ever be considered again...


The solid copper bullets came apart? Yikes!



I think those are softer, designed to open at lower, LR velocities. They may be too soft for the above application, as evidenced by the reported terminal performance. I'd say there were better choices for that scenario.

DF
Posted By: rost495

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/17/19

yep, designed to open up at slower speeds. No need in getting a bullet way out there if it won't open up.

7mm comes 139 and 145.

Kind of curious, where did they hit the moose at, IE what bones.

What is definition of coming all apart, I've not seen more than loosing 4 petals and keeping the shank.

Up close and personal I'd have been thinking boink in the head and its all over.

What cartridge? Was thinking you were running a 25-06.

What bullet will you replace it with?
Posted By: ironbender

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/17/19

Originally Posted by Sitka deer
Riley put a couple LR TXSs in a fair sized bull moose the other day and they were extremely underwhelming. They were up close and personal sort of shots and they came completely apart and penetration was non-existant. That was only 7mm (149gr?) but not close to acceptable and they did terrificly bad meat damage. Not to ever be considered again...

Yikes!
Posted By: Sitka deer

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/17/19

He was shooting a 7SAUM and was following up on the first shooter with a 308 and LRX. He called it from a seriously long distance and it took a couple hours to come to them. 54", but a "helicopter" shape. Very heavy mass both body and antlers, but likely a function of a truly great growing season. Guessing three-years-old. Hind quarters were still 130ish pounds after a long hanging.

Quartering on for the first shot at under 100 yards into shoulder, where it stayed. Second shot quartering away into ribs and the same shoulder where it stayed. Final finishing shot was in the neck at about 50 yards. It almost made it to bone. All three lost all petals and look to have tumbled. One was bent. Large mess in the shoulder and nothing more than ribs were hit for bone.

While cutting all three blue tips were found as well as most of the petals. Seriously wrong application for the bullet. I have no idea why they went that route. Sometimes he consults me, sometimes not so much.
Originally Posted by Dirtfarmer
Originally Posted by Cascade
Originally Posted by Sitka deer
Riley put a couple LR TXSs in a fair sized bull moose the other day and they were extremely underwhelming. They were up close and personal sort of shots and they came completely apart and penetration was non-existant. That was only 7mm (149gr?) but not close to acceptable and they did terrificly bad meat damage. Not to ever be considered again...


The solid copper bullets came apart? Yikes!



I think those are softer, designed to open at lower, LR velocities. They may be too soft for the above application, as evidenced by the reported terminal performance. I'd say there were better choices for that scenario.

DF
Posted By: ironbender

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/17/19

Kids....
Posted By: Sitka deer

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/17/19

Originally Posted by Dirtfarmer
Originally Posted by Cascade
Originally Posted by Sitka deer
Riley put a couple LR TXSs in a fair sized bull moose the other day and they were extremely underwhelming. They were up close and personal sort of shots and they came completely apart and penetration was non-existant. That was only 7mm (149gr?) but not close to acceptable and they did terrificly bad meat damage. Not to ever be considered again...


The solid copper bullets came apart? Yikes!



I think those are softer, designed to open at lower, LR velocities. They may be too soft for the above application, as evidenced by the reported terminal performance. I'd say there were better choices for that scenario.

DF

Yup.
Posted By: rost495

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/17/19

A shame to pick the wrong bullet, but it at least doesn't mar the TTSX reputation then.
Posted By: colorado bob

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/17/19

Jeff,

What was the problem with the partition? I would think the 458 with a 500 grain partition would be good bear medicine.

Phil have you used partitions?

Bob
Posted By: gunner500

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/17/19

Originally Posted by Dirtfarmer
Originally Posted by gunner500
No help here with a man like Phil on the job, but, were I too take my 458 for big bear it'd be loaded with either 500gr Woodleigh or Partitions, they both leave the old FN Browning Safari just North of 2150 fps, my part being done correctly, cant see where either wouldn't handily do theirs. good luck and have fun.

How about a 500 gr. Swift A-Frame? They have a good rep in other calibers, not sure about .458 Win.

DF


Bet the big Swift would be more than fine, after reading Phils report about the 500gr Woodleighs I hope they weren't the protected point version, those are the only one's I shoot, 320gr in 9.3, 500gr in 458 and 600gr in 505.
Posted By: rost495

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/18/19

Originally Posted by colorado bob
Jeff,

What was the problem with the partition? I would think the 458 with a 500 grain partition would be good bear medicine.

Phil have you used partitions?

Bob

I've shot a few 510 WW factory softs.. damn they wake you up. Would like to stay off the full 500 grain weight due to that.

Since Barnes typically loose very little if any weight unless serious bone is encountered I start a bit light with the barnes so in my mind 450 equals 500 in cup and core bullets.

Issues I've had with partitions was mostly my fault, expecting a 180 at 300 mag velocities to be an elk round if I ever did... but using it on pigs and deer finding it lost enough frontal weight to not be able to go lengthwise through decent pigs or even mid sized whitetails. I was flat amazed it would not do that.

John finally told me 180s don't do well at mag speeds, the 200 partitions were built for those bigger speeds.

But since Barnes is out and usually doesn't loose much if any weight and when ti does loose weight its still usually hanging onto more than a partition would anyway. Why not.

I finally made it to the mailbox today, its been over a week... and in the box were 2 boxes of 450 TSX to start with.
Posted By: Sitka deer

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/18/19

I am still amazed how my experiences with Partitions are so different from the internet. I have shot hundreds of Partitions into big game animals and and always believed perfection was the recovered bullet under the offside hide. And I believed they were nearly perfect for many, many years. My recovery rate was very high.

Once I saw the light, shining in from the exit hole, I realized how important it is to have the much better vent on the offside. I have put hundreds of Barnes bullets through big game animals and my recovery rate is far lower than many claims I have seen and orders of magnitude below Partitions. I have yet to recover an X of any iteration that I have used. At the same time I have never seen an Accubond make an exit. Nothing looks right about this to me...
Posted By: jwp475

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/18/19

Originally Posted by Sitka deer
I am still amazed how my experiences with Partitions are so different from the internet. I have shot hundreds of Partitions into big game animals and and always believed perfection was the recovered bullet under the offside hide. And I believed they were nearly perfect for many, many years. My recovery rate was very high.

Once I saw the light, shining in from the exit hole, I realized how important it is to have the much better vent on the offside. I have put hundreds of Barnes bullets through big game animals and my recovery rate is far lower than many claims I have seen and orders of magnitude below Partitions. I have yet to recover an X of any iteration that I have used. At the same time I have never seen an Accubond make an exit. Nothing looks right about this to me...



My experience mirrors yours. When I'm serious its TSX ir TTSX that I load into my rifles. Great penetration with excellent wound channels.
Posted By: TheKid

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/18/19

I caught a bunch of the original X bullets on quartering shots at deer and bigger pigs when I first started using them. I was using the 180gr out of a 30/06. They all looked like magazine add bullets and killed well but I kept reading about how they almost always gave an exit and was a little puzzled. When I finally got access to a chronograph I figured it out. My favorite handload was barely breaking 2400fps at the muzzle.

Since learning a bit about how monos work and stepping down in weight and up in speed I’ve rarely caught one. Found an Etip out of a 270wby that I killed a bull elk with last fall and a petal here and there off of 53gr TSXs fired from my 222 and 223s.

Most of my Partition experiences are with the 150 out of 270WCFs, never saw one caught in a couple dozen elk killed with that load out of my dad and uncle’s rifles. Prior to the switch to the Noslers they caught a bunch of Core-Lokts and one Speer GS. I did find the front core from a 160gr 7mm under the hide beside the exit on a grizzly my dad shot with a 7SAUM. Also found the front core from a 150gr 270 beside the exit on a big bull caribou. Of course I skinned a 4’ black bear killed with the 300gr .375 H&H Federal premium load that didn’t exit on a broadside rib shot. 3 250gr TSXs from the same rifle all exited an 8’ brown bear the next day.
Posted By: CZ550

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/18/19

Don't know about all .458" bullets, but currently writing my blog about that -- should be ready in a few days.

The .458 Win Mag is my favorite cartridge. For a long time it was the .45-70 until I gave my Ruger #1 in .45-70 a long throat that turned it into the equivalent of a .458 Win Mag by seating bullets long. Now I have a Ruger #1 in .458 Win Mag with Mag-Na-Porting and a 24" barrel. It has the typical long throat of all .458 WMs, plus no action that curtails COL. It's easily the equal of a .458 Lott -- if wanted.

But now I'm shooting 300gr TSX's at 2753 for a combo bear and wolf hunt. I have pushed that bullet up to 2980 fps without qualms. A 350 TSX leaves the muzzle at 2760 fps. That's plenty, I think, for the largest of bears making nearly 6000 ft-lbs KE at the muzzle. And that has become the new "standard" for those who crimp into the bottom cannelure using the best powders.

I have just finished a series of blogs on the .458 Win Mag, for those who might be interested.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca
Posted By: mainer_in_ak

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/18/19

Originally Posted by 458Win
I have been working on a couple of books and can at least see light at the end of the tunnel.
Just sent the majority of our bear hunters home an hour ago. I had to follow up and finish up another big one with my 458 last week and had chosen to use 500 gr Woodleigh softs. I was again dissatisfied with their penetration on big bears. The four hits I made showed entrance holes you could put your fist in, with lots of blown back fat, but not much penetration! I would have been better off with either TSX, Hornady's or Partitions .


I've had a problem with a woodleigh bullet. It was a 358, 275 grain protected point. It failed to expand on a head-on shot of a 56 in racked moose. It was an impact velocity of about 2100 fps. The bull swam across the small, upper Yukon tributary. The wet hide didn't help with expansion. I dont like how the protected point has no exposed lead at the tip to help initiate expansion.

I've since switched to A-frames for my .410-9.3x62 wildcat, 9.3x62 and 358 winchester. That pure copper and pure lead expands quite well down to 1500 fps.

This year's 42 inch racked bull moose, the 300 grain A-frames worked well from the ole nine-three. Two hits were a little high and went through both scapulas, both a complete pass-through. Finally one hit square through the front end. Lots of rib and shoulder bone. He was heading for a swampy oxbow. I recovered that one against the hide on the off-side, it weighed 295.5 grains and expanded to 71 caliber. Nothing was blood-shot. Have A-frames worked good for you in 458 caliber?
[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]
Posted By: Llama_Bob

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/18/19

Woodleigh Weldcore or Swift A-Frame in 450gr or 500gr.

Either should exit except possibly on a full lengthwise shot.

In a stopping situation where you want the wound track to be wide as well as deep, I would never even vaguely consider any mono-metal bullet. The expansion is limited, and bullet failures are common.
Posted By: 458Win

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/19/19

Originally Posted by Llama_Bob
Woodleigh Weldcore or Swift A-Frame in 450gr or 500gr.

Either should exit except possibly on a full lengthwise shot.

In a stopping situation where you want the wound track to be wide as well as deep, I would never even vaguely consider any mono-metal bullet. The expansion is limited, and bullet failures are common.


I think I can safely say that most of my bear guides have learned to rely on the performance of mono-metal bullets like the TSX on our big bears ! Two holes bleed more than one.
Posted By: rost495

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/19/19

Originally Posted by Llama_Bob
Woodleigh Weldcore or Swift A-Frame in 450gr or 500gr.

Either should exit except possibly on a full lengthwise shot.

In a stopping situation where you want the wound track to be wide as well as deep, I would never even vaguely consider any mono-metal bullet. The expansion is limited, and bullet failures are common.

bullet failures are common. LMAO.
Posted By: 458Win

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/19/19

Had I chosen to use deeper penetrating bullets my tracking job would have been hours shorter !
Posted By: Sitka deer

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/19/19

Originally Posted by 458Win
Had I chosen to use deeper penetrating bullets my tracking job would have been hours shorter !

20:20 hindsight is SO expensive.
Posted By: jwp475

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/19/19

Originally Posted by Llama_Bob
Woodleigh Weldcore or Swift A-Frame in 450gr or 500gr.

Either should exit except possibly on a full lengthwise shot.

In a stopping situation where you want the wound track to be wide as well as deep, I would never even vaguely consider any mono-metal bullet. The expansion is limited, and bullet failures are common.


Woodliegh bullets are soft and lack penetration. Mono's like the TSX or TTSX produce excellent expansion and great penetration with monotonous regularity.
You post show a complete lack of reality.
Posted By: Dirtfarmer

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/19/19

Originally Posted by jwp475
Originally Posted by Llama_Bob
Woodleigh Weldcore or Swift A-Frame in 450gr or 500gr.

Either should exit except possibly on a full lengthwise shot.

In a stopping situation where you want the wound track to be wide as well as deep, I would never even vaguely consider any mono-metal bullet. The expansion is limited, and bullet failures are common.


Woodliegh bullets are soft and lack penetration. Mono's like the TSX or TTSX produce excellent expansion and great penetration with monotonous regularity.
You post show a complete lack of reality.

Lack of reality, Llama Bob??

You gotta be kiddin. shocked

DF
Posted By: Mule Deer

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/19/19

People here keep asking LB for some pictorial evidence of his field experience with Woodleighs, since he claims the 160 WL is the GREATEST elk bullet ever in the .264 Winchester Magnum.

Woodleighs retain a lot of weight, but they expand a LOT, which does not enhance penetration. In fact, probably the biggest bonded bullet I've seen fail to exit a small "big game" animal was a 340-grain .416 Woodleigh, started at around 2600 fps--found in front of the left shoulder of a fallow-deer doe that might have weighed 100 pounds. Now, it was an angling away shot, with the bullet entering the right rear of the ribs, but....
Posted By: Llama_Bob

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/19/19

Originally Posted by jwp475
Originally Posted by Llama_Bob
Woodleigh Weldcore or Swift A-Frame in 450gr or 500gr.

Either should exit except possibly on a full lengthwise shot.

In a stopping situation where you want the wound track to be wide as well as deep, I would never even vaguely consider any mono-metal bullet. The expansion is limited, and bullet failures are common.


Woodliegh bullets are soft and lack penetration. Mono's like the TSX or TTSX produce excellent expansion and great penetration with monotonous regularity.
You post show a complete lack of reality.


Which is why they're used on cape buffalo all the time. You are full of steaming [bleep] laugh
Posted By: Llama_Bob

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/19/19

Originally Posted by Mule Deer
People here keep asking LB for some pictorial evidence of his field experience with Woodleighs, since he claims the 160 WL is the GREATEST elk bullet ever in the .264 Winchester Magnum.

Woodleighs retain a lot of weight, but they expand a LOT, which does not enhance penetration. In fact, probably the biggest bonded bullet I've seen fail to exit a small "big game" animal was a 340-grain .416 Woodleigh, started at around 2600 fps--found in front of the left shoulder of a fallow-deer doe that might have weighed 100 pounds. Now, it was an angling away shot, with the bullet entering the right rear of the ribs, but....


Once again proving that sectional density matters. A 350 .416 is a low-SD (light for caliber) bullet cataloged only for load duplication purposes in old Rigbys.. Penetrating the length of an animal while retaining weight is a good result in that case. The 400, 410 and 450gr weights you would expect a pass through. Similarly, the recommended .458 bullets with SDs > 0.3 you would expect deep penetration in a bear.

The physics of this really isn't that complicated, much as people try to pretend it is. Bring a high SD, retain weight, and operate in the velocity window of your soft and you will get a deep and wide wound cavity. Skip one of those three things, and either depth or width (or both) suffer.
Posted By: Dirtfarmer

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/19/19

Originally Posted by Llama_Bob
Originally Posted by Mule Deer
People here keep asking LB for some pictorial evidence of his field experience with Woodleighs, since he claims the 160 WL is the GREATEST elk bullet ever in the .264 Winchester Magnum.

Woodleighs retain a lot of weight, but they expand a LOT, which does not enhance penetration. In fact, probably the biggest bonded bullet I've seen fail to exit a small "big game" animal was a 340-grain .416 Woodleigh, started at around 2600 fps--found in front of the left shoulder of a fallow-deer doe that might have weighed 100 pounds. Now, it was an angling away shot, with the bullet entering the right rear of the ribs, but....


Once again proving that sectional density matters. A 350 .416 is a low-SD (light for caliber) bullet cataloged only for load duplication purposes in old Rigbys.. Penetrating the length of an animal while retaining weight is a good result in that case. The 400, 410 and 450gr weights you would expect a pass through. Similarly, the recommended .458 bullets with SDs > 0.3 you would expect deep penetration in a bear.

The physics of this really isn't that complicated, much as people try to pretend it is. Bring a high SD, retain weight, and operate in the velocity window of your soft and you will get a deep and wide wound cavity. Skip one of those three things, and either depth or weight (or both) suffer.

Physics, expect?

What have you SEEN?

DF
Posted By: Llama_Bob

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/19/19

I've seen bullets works exactly as their design says they should. It's really not that complicated. If your bullets retains weight, expands, and has a high SD it will produce a deep and wide wound cavity which is really all you can ask it to do.

If all you want only a deep wound cavity (which is a somewhat inferior choice for stopping, but I care not one whit if some of you are eaten by a bear), Cutting Edge and formerly Northfork make wide flat meplat solids with sharp corners that would easily pass through 2 and likely 3 bears depending on angle.

If you want an even narrower wound cavity, the mono-metal "expanding" bullets (that rarely expand) are waiting for you. Their wound channels are worse than a wide flat meplat solid, but as I said I care very little what happens to certain people.

If you want to do it right, you'll use a high-SD, high weight retention soft. The A-Frame and Weldcore both work well. The Partition sheds about 30% of its weight but is better than a cup and core.

It's not that hard.
Posted By: jwp475

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/19/19

Originally Posted by Llama_Bob
I've seen bullets works exactly as their design says they should. It's really not that complicated. If your bullets retains weight, expands, and has a high SD it will produce a deep and wide wound cavity which is really all you can ask it to do.

If all you want only a deep wound cavity (which is a somewhat inferior choice for stopping, but I care not one whit if some of you are eaten by a bear), Cutting Edge and formerly Northfork make wide flat meplat solids with sharp corners that would easily pass through 2 and likely 3 bears depending on angle.

If you want an even narrower wound cavity, the mono-metal "expanding" bullets (that rarely expand) are waiting for you. Their wound channels are worse than a wide flat meplat solid, but as I said I care very little what happens to certain people.

If you want to do it right, you'll use a high-SD, high weight retention soft. The A-Frame and Weldcore both work well. The Partition sheds about 30% of its weight but is better than a cup and core.

It's not that hard.


Yoh must be Lee24
Posted By: JGRaider

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/19/19

This dope is Larry Root
Posted By: Llama_Bob

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/19/19

Ahh, the whole clown college is here. I love how you guys get so consistently and frequently owned by ballistics facts that you're all convinced I'm someone who previously humiliated you, but you can't decide who. That's remarkably special laugh
Posted By: rost495

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/19/19

You say mono metal.

I"ll just say if you think any of todays Barnes don't ever or very rarely expand you have not shot them at all.

I've yet to see one NOT expand. There could always be a first, but FAR from what you expound on.

You are mostly alone in your thoughts of Barnes rarely if ever expanding is all I can say.

And if you are on here with yet another name, folks like that I have zero respect for.
Posted By: Goosey

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/19/19

Originally Posted by Llama_Bob
If you want an even narrower wound cavity, the mono-metal "expanding" bullets (that rarely expand) are waiting for you. Their wound channels are worse than a wide flat meplat solid


Heh

Seems like the whole X-bullet thing was a crock, folks should be shooting bar stock!
Posted By: Llama_Bob

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/19/19

Funnily enough, bore riding bar stock with driving bands isn't a horrible solution to the problem of an effective wounding solid as long as your gun can feed/chamber and stabilize it.

The problem with a bullet like the TSX that fails to expand is that as a solid it sucks. The spire point shape produces a tiny stretched rather than cut wound cavity with a propensity to seal up, especially in fatty animals like bears. I see several wounds a year like that in elk and bears. It's pretty pathetic really. The TTSXs don't seem to be much better. It's exactly the same problem you get when people try to use FMJ military projectiles for hunting.

Weldcores and A-Frames will get the job done in terms of expansion and penetration. If you're super worried about the Weldcores being too soft (they're not - they're just right IF you're smart enough to read the impact velocity off the box) then use the A-Frame.
Posted By: jeffbird

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/20/19

OP,
listen to .458 and take notes, he is the real deal for big bear hunting.

Originally Posted by JGRaider
This dope is Larry Root


That would explain the comments. If he mentions Brownell’s, gut shooting animals, or owning Ernest Hemingway’s Model 70 even though he cannot spell Hemingway, that will be proof positive.

Posted By: rost495

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/20/19

Originally Posted by Llama_Bob
Funnily enough, bore riding bar stock with driving bands isn't a horrible solution to the problem of an effective wounding solid as long as your gun can feed/chamber and stabilize it.

The problem with a bullet like the TSX that fails to expand is that as a solid it sucks. The spire point shape produces a tiny stretched rather than cut wound cavity with a propensity to seal up, especially in fatty animals like bears. I see several wounds a year like that in elk and bears. It's pretty pathetic really. The TTSXs don't seem to be much better. It's exactly the same problem you get when people try to use FMJ military projectiles for hunting.

Weldcores and A-Frames will get the job done in terms of expansion and penetration. If you're super worried about the Weldcores being too soft (they're not - they're just right IF you're smart enough to read the impact velocity off the box) then use the A-Frame.

If I were you I'd quit hunting. Pinedale might be happy then too. But you have the worst luck of anyone I've ever seen in regards to so many failures with Barnes...
Posted By: Dirtfarmer

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/20/19

Originally Posted by jeffbird
OP,
listen to .458 and take notes, he is the real deal for big bear hunting.

Originally Posted by JGRaider
This dope is Larry Root


That would explain the comments. If he mentions Brownell’s, gut shooting animals, or owning Ernest Hemingway’s Model 70 even though he cannot spell Hemingway, that will be proof positive.


Phil's killed more big bears, seen more killed on guided hunts than LB has read about on the innanet...

Ninja bear hunter...

LB's attitude's not too different from Larry Root. Thought Bricktop took care of ole Larry some time back...

Someone with computer skills needs to check IP addresses and see if LB and LR are one and the same.

DF
Posted By: Llama_Bob

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/20/19

Why would I quit hunting because other people choose poorly designed bullets that produce poor wound channels? That makes no sense whatsoever.

Life's got a funny sense of humor though - a guy at the same trail head last year used a TTSX on a double lung/heart shot on a 5x6 bull. No chance of recovering the bullet, but the wound track was less than .30 and sealed on both ends as you would expect from a monolithic failure. The bull went "only" about 500y but it was down some ugly [bleep] and they had to take it out with pack llamas from the next access over. Dude almost killed himself trying to pack the first quarter out himself before he broke down and paid for the mini-camels.

Guess he should have used a Weldcore laugh
Posted By: Llama_Bob

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/20/19

Originally Posted by Dirtfarmer
Someone with computer skills needs to check IP addresses and see if LB and LR are one and the same.


Why look, it's another clown college alum laugh

You find someone smarter than you and have them do that. Reality is, lots of people think you're a dumbass, not just me and whoever Larry is.
Posted By: Dirtfarmer

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/20/19

Originally Posted by Llama_Bob
Originally Posted by Dirtfarmer
Someone with computer skills needs to check IP addresses and see if LB and LR are one and the same.


Why look, it's another clown college alum laugh

You find someone smarter than you and have them do that. Reality is, lots of people think you're a dumbass, not just me and whoever Larry is.

Speculation. About as accurate as some of your other stuff.

Don't think you'd come out so well on an actual head count...

You may not be Larry, but for sure similar. So, you may not want to know about him.

DF
Posted By: Mule Deer

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/20/19

Anybody who doesn't know who 458Win is, and why he might know a thing or two about bullets for big bears, might check out his website:
www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com
Posted By: Llama_Bob

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/20/19

You just go right on speculating. I'll stick to the facts, like (T)TSXs suck, and the high-SD Weldcores are highly effective dangerous game bullets with excellent performance and more than capable of punching through a bear laugh
Posted By: Dirtfarmer

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/20/19

Originally Posted by Llama_Bob
You just go right on speculating. I'll stick to the facts, like (T)TSXs suck, and the high-SD Weldcores are highly effective dangerous game bullets with excellent performance and more than capable of punching through a bear laugh

If you don't know who Mule Deer is, you may want to check out his credentials...

Right after you check out Phil's credentials...

DF
Posted By: Llama_Bob

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/20/19

Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Anybody who doesn't know who 458Win is, and why he might know a thing or two about bullets for big bears, might check out his website:
www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com

Well I'm sure he'll come along and show us his recovered Weldcores that he thinks had inadequate penetration so we can decide if they failed or not. And possibly explain how he's getting large ENTRANCE wounds. Perhaps his big bears are so scary the bullets opened up before they arrived at the game laugh

Suffice to say more than a little about his story stinks, especially since he was extolling the same bullets' virtues a page back. But he's welcome to explain how a bullet that day in and day out gives excellent performance on cape buffalo doesn't penetrate enough for a bear. I've got plenty of popcorn ready for that one laugh
Posted By: Llama_Bob

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/20/19

Originally Posted by Dirtfarmer
Originally Posted by Llama_Bob
You just go right on speculating. I'll stick to the facts, like (T)TSXs suck, and the high-SD Weldcores are highly effective dangerous game bullets with excellent performance and more than capable of punching through a bear laugh

If you don't know who Mule Deer is, you may want to check out his credentials...

Right after you check out Phil's credentials...

DF

Oh, it's you who's doing all the speculating and I don't need to see your clown college diploma to know your "credentials".
Posted By: 458Win

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/20/19

Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Anybody who doesn't know who 458Win is, and why he might know a thing or two about bullets for big bears, might check out his website:
www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com



Thanks John,

My choice of using my old Woodleigh handloads resulted in having an additional 3 hours of tracking as a Texas heart shot at a massive departing bear that stopped in the stomach was nowhere as effective as a hit from tougher bullets.

Tia stopped her clients bear with a single well placed 300 gr TSX from her 416 that broke both shoulders as it was running

The results I have had with the new bonded, steel jacketed Hornady DGX bullets has also been great
Posted By: Llama_Bob

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/20/19

Ahh, so now we're getting some info. It was a "Texas heart shot" i.e. you shot a bear in the ass. Now, how far exactly did this bullet penetrate? And what was your muzzle velocity?
Posted By: 458Win

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/20/19

The same as if had been from the front !
2100 fps !

And Bob, what has been your experience with big bears ?
Posted By: Llama_Bob

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/20/19

You've avoiding the question. How far did this bullet, shot by you at the worst possible angle, penetrate? What bones did it strike? And how much weight did it retain?

2100 is an acceptable velocity for that bullet.
Posted By: rost495

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/20/19

Good Lord you are stupid.
Posted By: Llama_Bob

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/20/19

If someone's going to make claims of inadequate bullet performance, it's only reasonable to ask what that performance was.

We've already ferreted out one relevant fact - that he shot the bear in the ass. That was omitted from the original explanation. I suspect we're about to learn there's a lot more to the story, because 500gr Weldcores don't just stop on a dime as many a cape buffalo hunter can tell you.
Posted By: Dirtfarmer

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/20/19

Originally Posted by rost495
Good Lord you are stupid.

+1

You can educate ignorance.

Not much you can do with stupid.

DF
Posted By: Llama_Bob

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/20/19

And yet, the facts are coming up my way and I bet there's a lot more to the story we haven't heard yet. For someone so stupid, I just happen to be right all the time laugh
Posted By: ironbender

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/20/19

Why do you good men waste your efforts on this miscreant?

Her so-called Information, if one were to actually believe it, would get a person killed. Or worse, chewed by a bear.
Posted By: pabucktail

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/20/19

You best stick to the llamas there bob, as you obviously don't know squat about the ins and outs of killing brown bears. Your're a goon who seems to disdain logic and the knowledge of experienced people, but for the edification of others I'll say this..... Those of us who have killed a brown bear (or 20) know that the best thing to shoot them with is a bullet that not only expands, but also digs deep, hence the popularity of Partitions and TSXs. These bullets are expected to penetrate a big bear end to end or nearly so. Take for example one 7.5' boar that charged me. I shot him square-on with a .375 300 partition at 12 yards. He stumbled as his face hit the dirt and did a 180. Then I shot him twice more in the ass as he headed away. Yeah, bob, we shoot bears in the ass because we hate tracking them. Both of the followup bullets broke his pelvis. One blew out through his chest, I found the other one in the neck, nestled up against a vertebrae. Guys with experience trust premium bullets because they're proven over and over and are trusted by people who actually have to know, beyond a doubt that they work.

What's more, unlike the notional world you seem to operate in, we who really have to count on this stuff base our choices on what's worked for us and/or our friends who've been in a tough spot. If you do this stuff for real you pay attention, because your life and the lives of people counting on you are in the balance. I can say I literally owe my life or at least an un-maimed existence several times over to my choice of bullet and my ability with a rifle, so I just can't sit by let this bit of campfire idiocy go unanswered. Good luck in life to you sir.
Posted By: Llama_Bob

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/20/19

Of course the stupidity of pabucktail's post is that Weldcores consistently out-penetrate partitions of the same weight because partitions shed a large amount of weight forward of the partition.

So again it's facts vs. clowns. I love this laugh

And of course we still need the basic details of 458Win's ass shot bear:
1) What bones were struck?
2) How far did the bullet travel?
3) What was the weight of the bullet afterwards?

I love how you clowns are convinced that a bullet that is used consistently on cape buffalo couldn't POSSIBLY penetrate a bear. That's a [bleep] laugh laugh
Posted By: Mule Deer

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/20/19

You don't know what you're talking about--and the big problem is that you apparently don't know two things:

First, you believe so much in the sectional density of the bullet as its sits in the cartridge, that you apparently have never realized the sectional density of an expanding bullet changes as soon as it starts to expand. This is why the frontal area of the "mushroom" affects penetration as much as retained weight. Bullets that expand widely will NOT penetrate a deeply as bullets that result in a smaller mushroom, given the same original weight, sectional density and impact velocity. This has been proven many times both in "media" and on game--and it's true not just because of the increased resistance, but the fact that a wider mushroom tends to make the bullet less stable in tissue.

Second, you obviously are not aware that the larger-caliber, heavier Nosler Partitions have the partition moved forward to retain more weight. This is true of Partitions from the 286-grain 9.3mm on up, which is why they penetrate very deeply. I have recovered only a very few of these, because they do indeed mostly exit, unless the angle is extreme on very large animals. The average retained weight of 286 9.3s, 300 .375s and 400 .416s in my collection is 89%, and with their smaller (but still substantial) "mushroom" they do indeed out-penetrate bonded bullets that open up wider. Which is exactly what pabucktail is talking about.

But go ahead, keep pestering people like pabucktail and Phil who (unlike you) do have experience on big bears.




Posted By: Llama_Bob

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/20/19

There's a lot more than 10% of the weight in front of the partition regardless of caliber, but go on making [bleep] up. It's consistent with everything I know about you.

And of course sectional density STILL determines penetration. It's physics. You know it, I know it, but it's inconvenient because that FACT is preventing people from circle jerking one of their favorite outfitters in this thread who apparently DOESN'T know it. Rather embarrassing for him, but here we are laugh

We're still waiting for the facts on this ass shot bear.
Posted By: 458Win

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/20/19

Originally Posted by Llama_Bob
You've avoiding the question. How far did this bullet, shot by you at the worst possible angle, penetrate? What bones did it strike? And how much weight did it retain?

2100 is an acceptable velocity for that bullet.


You are avoiding my question as well . What experience do you have with big bears ?

And the first two Woodleighs I put in the bear were in the rear as the client had wounded it an hour previously and it had escaped into thick brush. When I caught up with it it ran and a rear end shot was the only available shot. With stout bullets it is often a good way to put them down, if not kill them.

But when I caught up with the bear two hours later I hit him just behind the shoulder, twice, before he stopped and the other guide who was with me, and who had been beside the hunter when he shot and managed to put one 270 gr TSX in it before it got in the pucker brush, ended up putting a few more of his TSX bullets into it before it died.
We found three of The TSX bullets on the off side but even on the side on shots the Woodleighs did not pass through the complete rib cage

The experience is similar to the last time I used Woodleighs in my 505 Gibbs.
Posted By: Llama_Bob

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/20/19

Ah yes, the story changes again. The good news is that you fit right in with these clowns.

Answer the following simple questions about the bear you ass shot:
1) What was the penetration? A number of inches will suffice.
2) What bones were hit?
3) What was the retained weight of the bullet.

I realize this is hard, sort of like taking appropriate angle shots on game. But do try laugh
Posted By: 458Win

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/20/19

I will answer right after you tell us your experiences with bears !

And also explain exactly how much penetration really is required to kill bears and how soft Woodleighs compare to Partitions, Swifts and TSX bullets.
It shouldn't be too hard for someone as opinionated as you
Posted By: Mule Deer

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/20/19

"There's a lot more than 10% of the weight in front of the partition regardless of caliber."

This is true as far as goes, but the heavy models are designed to retain a MINIMUM of 75% of their weight even if the front core and jacket completely blow off--which is highly unusual at the velocities most of those heavy bullets are typically use--even when the velocity exceeds the "recommended" for Woodleighs. Generally, when started at 2400-2500 fps (far more than recommended 2200 maximum for the 500-grain Woodleigh) there's usually plenty left of the front jacket and, usually, the core. Have only recovered two that retained less than 87% of their weight, a 9.3 that broke the near shoulder joint of a blue wildebeest bull, and was found under the hide on the far side at the rear of the ribcage, and a 400-grain .416 that killed a big-bodied (and large-horned) Cape buffalo in Botswana, where the bullet entered the left side just behind the ribs, then passed through the grass-filled paunch and both lungs before breaking the right shoulder. There were witnesses to both shots, including two well-respected African PH's, Russell Tarr and Paddy Curtis, who could confirm this.

Why don't you provide some of your actual big game experiences, providing examples of everything you keep saying about bullet performance? This is an old Campfire tradition, partly because what hunters want here is actual information. But instead you keep saying the rest of us avoid answering questions--even though plenty have provided examples of their experience that contradicts some of your statements, such as that all monolithic bullets always fail to expand. You simply must have many examples of Woodleighs that have penetrated big brown bears lengthwise.

Why not provide them, instead of claiming the rest of us are lying?
Posted By: Llama_Bob

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/20/19

Originally Posted by 458Win
I will answer right after you tell us your experiences with bears !


I love how you dodge, bob, and weave. Keep hiding and embarrassing yourself. It fits.

Suffice to say I've shot a bear or two, and done it with people far less clown-like than you.
Posted By: Llama_Bob

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/20/19

Incidentally, "experience" has NOTHING to do with physics. The bullets do what they do whether you've shot no bears, or thousands. It doesn't matter. It's physics. And it's clear that the clowns will provide no actual facts about this ass-shot bear, because those facts would be embarrassing laugh
Posted By: 458Win

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/20/19

Originally Posted by Llama_Bob
Originally Posted by 458Win
I will answer right after you tell us your experiences with bears !


I love how you dodge, bob, and weave. Keep hiding and embarrassing yourself. It fits.

Suffice to say I've shot a bear or two, and done it with people far less clown-like than you.


Somebody seems to be an expert at dodge, bob and weave. And now that you claim to have shot a bear or two with people more qualified and less clown like than me I am sure we all would like to hear.
Posted By: Llama_Bob

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/20/19

Originally Posted by Mule Deer

This is true as far as goes, but the heavy models are designed to retain a MINIMUM of 75% of their weight


That's a laugh, since the Weldcores consistently retain 90%+.

I love it when the clowns make my point for me laugh Sectional density just keeps on keepin' on!
Posted By: Llama_Bob

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/20/19

Originally Posted by 458Win
Originally Posted by Llama_Bob
Originally Posted by 458Win
I will answer right after you tell us your experiences with bears !


I love how you dodge, bob, and weave. Keep hiding and embarrassing yourself. It fits.

Suffice to say I've shot a bear or two, and done it with people far less clown-like than you.


Somebody seems to be an expert at dodge, bob and weave. And now that you claim to have shot a bear or two with people more qualified and less clown like than me I am sure we all would like to hear.


Not until you answer my three basic questions:
1) What was the penetration? A number of inches will suffice.
2) What bones were hit?
3) What was the retained weight of the bullet.

You are the one claiming there is something wrong with the Weldcore despite the facts to the contrary. YOU are the one who has to provide the facts to back that up.

If it makes you feel better, I will stipulate I have nowhere near the experience ass shooting bears (or any other game) that you do. I'm sure you're an undisputed expert at that shot angle.

Of course I know you will refuse to answer, because that's what clowns like you do. Clowns like you are always allergic to facts.
Posted By: 458Win

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/20/19

Originally Posted by Llama_Bob
Originally Posted by Mule Deer

This is true as far as goes, but the heavy models are designed to retain a MINIMUM of 75% of their weight


That's a laugh, since the Weldcores consistently retain 90%+.

I love it when the clowns make my point for me laugh Sectional density just keeps on keepin' on!



What experiences can you share that prove your point ?
Posted By: Llama_Bob

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/20/19

We're talking physics here. Facts are what matter, not "experience". You don't learn how to make a bullet shoot deeper. It either does or it doesn't.

Now, you can learn to shoot game in the ass, and it's quite clear you have. Bravo. That's experience, and you've got it.

I know you'll never provide the answers to my 3 questions, because they would embarrass you:
1) What was the penetration? A number of inches will suffice.
2) What bones were hit?
3) What was the retained weight of the bullet.
Posted By: AKwolverine

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/20/19

Originally Posted by Llama_Bob
Originally Posted by 458Win
I will answer right after you tell us your experiences with bears !


I love how you dodge, bob, and weave. Keep hiding and embarrassing yourself. It fits.

Suffice to say I've shot a bear or two, and done it with people far less clown-like than you.

Phil isn’t the one embarrassing himself here ...
Posted By: Llama_Bob

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/20/19

And yet the facts keep being on my side, and the clowns keep failing to present any. Funny, that laugh
Posted By: jwp475

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/20/19

Originally Posted by Llama_Bob
And yet the facts keep being on my side, and the clowns keep failing to present any. Funny, that laugh


That's funny as hell! You have no facts and no pictures.
Posted By: jwp475

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/20/19

Originally Posted by 458Win
Originally Posted by Llama_Bob
Originally Posted by Mule Deer

This is true as far as goes, but the heavy models are designed to retain a MINIMUM of 75% of their weight


That's a laugh, since the Weldcores consistently retain 90%+.

I love it when the clowns make my point for me laugh Sectional density just keeps on keepin' on!



What experiences can you share that prove your point ?



He can't post any experience.
Posted By: Dirtfarmer

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/20/19

Seems we’ve all wasted way too much bandwidth on this troll.

DF
Posted By: Llama_Bob

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/20/19

Oh, I'm just picturing this discussion:

*** Set in the trophy room ***
Lawyer Steve: That your new bear mount over there?
Dentist Richard: Yup.
Lawyer Steve: Why's it facing the wall?
Dentist Richard: Because that's how it was shot!
Lawyer Steve: You shot it in the ass?
Dentist Richard: No, no, I didn't shoot it in the ass personally. I hired a professional. Phil Shoemaker. The guy really has experience shooting bears in the ass. Not just theory. He KNOWS that shot.
Lawyer Steve: Hmmm....
Dentist Richard: Can you believe it went 26 3/4"
Lawyer Steve: Hard to tell from this angle.
Posted By: WTM45

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/20/19

Originally Posted by Llama_Bob
Incidentally, "experience" has NOTHING to do with physics. The bullets do what they do whether you've shot no bears, or thousands. It doesn't matter. It's physics.


Each one is an example of one. Variables are the uncontrollable factor.
Experience and experimentation matters greatly. Figures on paper are no promise of expected result.
Calculated sectional density figures are not the only factor to be concerned with. Only a starting point.
Posted By: kaboku68

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/20/19

Jerry Jacques is a very good friend of mine, He has guided for a long time on the Alaska Peninnsula and uses a Remington model 700 in 416 Remington that is heavily modified for field use. He was telling me of an "expert" who he took hunting for brown bears.The hunter has hunted the world and had experience in Africa. The fellow explained to Jerry that he wanted a 10ft bear for his office and wouldn't settle for anything less. Jerry personally guided the hunter because he was a prima donna who woke up late, ate lots of food that he often complained about and took very many breaks. This bwana would regal everybody in camp about how experienced and good he was. Eventually everybody else in camp tagged out with nice bears and the pressure was on. The weather was as bad as only it can get near Cold Bay but there was one nice morning that Jerry some how got this hunter up and out in the field. They spotted a bear that appeared to be resting in a tussock depression about 350 yards from a salmon stream. Jerry worked the hunter within about 75 yards of this mature boar that he felt would be about a 9foot bear. He asked the hunter if the bear was good enough or if the hunter wanted to come back the next year for a bigger bear. The hunter said that no the bear was fine. The expert had a very high dollar custom mauser in 375 with a compact german variable. Jerry got the hunter in the right position for the shot. The bear woke up and got on his fours headed back to the salmon stream. Jerry had the hunter set up shooting sticks and get set. The bear turned in perfect position and gave the hunter a great shot. Jerry told the hunter to wait a second until he could also get on the bear with his rifle. When Jerry said "go ahead, take him" nothing happened. Jerry repeated, " go ahead, take the shot." Nothing happened again. The bear suddenly looked right in their direction, tensed up and then ran like hell. Jerry looked over at his client and the guy had his rifle down and his fly open pissing downwind towards the bear. The bear smelled the piss and took off. The hunter didn't say a thing to Jerry afterwards and tipped him well for the hunt. You don't know how well you are going to do unless you are right there. The truth is Brown Bear guides aren't going to toot their horns or blow super hard but are going to use the best possible tool for the situation and unless you have been there its a good idea to listen and defer to them.
Posted By: jeffbird

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/20/19

So OP has a choice of listening to advice from a man that lives with the big coastal brown bears, hunts big bears for decades, guides clients on big bears for decades, uses a .458 as a daily tool of his trade, and sees more big bears shot in a year than probably the rest of the posters on this thread added together, and he recommends Barnes which is consistent with others’ field experience, or Rost can listen to the dandy Llama shooter quoting what he read in the 1954 edition of Field & Stream and rely on his extensive field experience gut shooting elk and pronghorn with his musket.... gee Rost, close call?
hmmmm......,

Hopefully Llama really is Root, would be shocking to know there are two like him if it is not although his posts are entertaining in a bizarre way. Now he is trying to school Phil on bear hunting, what’s next, educate David Tubb on Highpower shooting, Clint Smith on defensive pistol?

Phil,

please keep sharing your knowledge. Everyone except Dork is paying attention and appreciates you taking time to share.
Posted By: Dirtfarmer

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/20/19

Yep.

Cheap entertainment, Fire style.

DF
Posted By: rost495

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/20/19

Originally Posted by jeffbird
So OP has a choice of listening to advice from a man that lives with the big coastal brown bears, hunts big bears for decades, guides clients on big bears for decades, uses a .458 as a daily tool of his trade, and sees more big bears shot in a year than probably the rest of the posters on this thread added together, and he recommends Barnes which is consistent with others’ field experience, or Rost can listen to the dandy Llama shooter quoting what he read in the 1954 edition of Field & Stream and rely on his extensive field experience gut shooting elk and pronghorn with his musket.... gee Rost, close call?
hmmmm......,

Hopefully Llama really is Root, would be shocking to know there are two like him if it is not although his posts are entertaining in a bizarre way. Now he is trying to school Phil on bear hunting, what’s next, educate David Tubb on Highpower shooting, Clint Smith on defensive pistol?

Phil,

please keep sharing your knowledge. Everyone except Dork is paying attention and appreciates you taking time to share.


Oh I've educated Tubb once... LMAO. Got lucky is what it was really.

No close calls for me. had Barnes coming before dumb azz ever showed up on this thread.

Folks like that just do it to aggravate. I know their kind. Total Azz. I worked for one for a long time.

They have to report in at some point. They will receive what they deserve at that point.
Posted By: Dirtfarmer

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/20/19

Arguing big bears with Phil is not too unlike arguing Catholicism with the Pope.

And thinking one is qualified to do either is the comic relief sometimes encountered here on the Fire.

Where else could we enjoy more for less.

DF
Posted By: ironbender

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/20/19

Comical to a degree, but the fire is a dumber place from the manure Obama llama has deposited.
Posted By: Texson2

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/21/19

Some Bears are just tough SOB just like some people refuse to give up. Several killing shots with a premium bullet and he’s not down yet. Afterwards, you scratch your head, clean out you pants, and are thankful for an experienced guide. Just keep shooting. Most haven’t been there. F*ck experts and physics. I’ll take experience. Happy Hunting.
Posted By: stxhunter

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/21/19

LB is not root, i can tell.
Posted By: Dirtfarmer

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/21/19

Originally Posted by stxhunter
LB is not root, i can tell.

I think you’re right. Feels different. Not the same style.

DF
Posted By: Mule Deer

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/21/19

Root would have been posting photos of recovered TSX's, along with fancy rifles he supposedly owned lifted from various websites.
Posted By: pabucktail

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/21/19

[Linked Image]

Look, more experience! Here's three 300gr Partitions out of four I put into another brown bear as it faced me about 30 yards away. The retained weights are 70, 70, and 69 percent. Velocity was 2550. The bear was downhill from me on the edge of some pretty nasty cover. All shots entered the from above where the neck joins the body and raked the chest and abdomen, exiting or coming to rest under the hide by the tail. Total penetration was about five feet.

Still waiting to your experience with brown bears bob. [Linked Image]
Posted By: rost495

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/21/19

Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Root would have been posting photos of recovered TSX's, along with fancy rifles he supposedly owned lifted from various websites.

Yep, I had forgotten that part.
Posted By: rosco1

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/21/19

Originally Posted by Llama_Bob
And yet the facts keep being on my side, and the clowns keep failing to present any. Funny, that laugh


Fact is anyone that actually does the [bleep] you read about, but have no experience doing spots you as the poser you are from a mile away

Reoccurring theme in your life isn’t it.
Posted By: Cascade

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/21/19

Originally Posted by pabucktail
[Linked Image]

Look, more experience! Here's three 300gr Partitions out of four I put into another brown bear as it faced me about 30 yards away. The retained weights are 70, 70, and 69 percent. Velocity was 2550. The bear was downhill from me on the edge of some pretty nasty cover. All shots entered the from above where the neck joins the body and raked the chest and abdomen, exiting or coming to rest under the hide by the tail. Total penetration was about five feet.

Still waiting to your experience with brown bears bob. [Linked Image]


I've got quite a stash of 300 gr Partitions and they shoot well from my rifle. I take it you're happy with them on big game? Seemed like good performance from what you wrote!

Have taken some black bear with my 375, but used the 260 gr Accubond, with good results. Hadn't tried the 300 grain Partition on game yet.

Thanks, Guy
Posted By: Dirtfarmer

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/21/19

Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Root would have been posting photos of recovered TSX's, along with fancy rifles he supposedly owned lifted from various websites.

A self declared Mensa, nonetheless... smile

He's the smartest guy he knows...

DF
Posted By: pabucktail

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/21/19

Originally Posted by Cascade
Originally Posted by pabucktail
[Linked Image]

Look, more experience! Here's three 300gr Partitions out of four I put into another brown bear as it faced me about 30 yards away. The retained weights are 70, 70, and 69 percent. Velocity was 2550. The bear was downhill from me on the edge of some pretty nasty cover. All shots entered the from above where the neck joins the body and raked the chest and abdomen, exiting or coming to rest under the hide by the tail. Total penetration was about five feet.

Still waiting to your experience with brown bears bob. [Linked Image]


I've got quite a stash of 300 gr Partitions and they shoot well from my rifle. I take it you're happy with them on big game? Seemed like good performance from what you wrote!

Have taken some black bear with my 375, but used the 260 gr Accubond, with good results. Hadn't tried the 300 grain Partition on game yet.

Thanks, Guy


Yeah, I like them just fine. Having used them on everything from a brown bear at 2 yards to deer and mountain goats at nearly 400 yards I find them versatile and effective. That being said, I’d likely be just as happy with an A Frame or TSX but Noslers are the premium I started with in the .375 and I see no reason to change. I’ve got about 200 left and truth be told those will last a long, long time given how much more I use the 9.3x62 these days.
Posted By: 458Win

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/21/19

I bugged Nosler for years about building Partitions for the 458 and when they finally did I had been writing for Wolfe Publishing for long enough that I had accumulated a fair stash of other premium bullets and learned how well they worked that I had not tried them. I even had a box and considered using them this year but in a nostalgic moment
( as this was my 40th year of guiding) decided to go with the Woodleighs I had previously loaded up.
And I take full responsibility for the choice as I knew full well how soft Woodleighs are and that I might have to stop a wounded bear from escaping, rather than just facing a charging one. And as I have pointed out numerous time on these forums, nostalgia ain't worth crap when things go south !
Guess I will give the Partitions a try next spring

And for those of you who are fans of Woodleighs, go ahead and use them as they work pretty good most of the time, and their solids are excellent.
Posted By: Tejano

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/21/19

458 good for you getting Nosler to make the 458s. Their original equipment couldn't handle larger diameter bullets so you got them to re-tool too. From other calibers the Partition usually penetrates more than the Woodleigh as they don't open up as wide. So for odd angles they might be better.
Posted By: Mule Deer

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/22/19

Phil,

The only 500-grain .458 Partition I've seen used in the field was started from a hunting partner's .458 Lott. It hit a Cape buffalo just under the chin at around 40 yards, as the bull raised its head to look in the direction of the slight noise it heard. The bull collapsed at the shot, nose down, because the bullet had broken the spine, then (as far as we could tell during the field butchering) ended up somewhere in the back half of the bull. It wasn't found , so have no retained-weight stories to tell.
Posted By: APDDSN0864

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/22/19

Originally Posted by Mule Deer
... It wasn't found , so have no retained-weight stories to tell.


From this neophyte's point of view, I'd say there was a 100% weight retention. All of it was retained inside said buffalo... grin

Ed
Posted By: rost495

Re: 458 Win Mag Big Bear Bullet? - 10/22/19

Good to see you post Ed. Hope all is going well. Have been on the skidoo now for almost a week or more in Delta.. Last year at this time no snow at all
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