Would like your thoughts on using a 6.5 Creedmoor for African plains game to include possibly zebra and eland and kudu with premium bullets like 140 grain Nosler partition’s or 140 grain Swift a frame

You'll shoot yer eye out, kid.

Bell was stacking elephants with the 6.5mm.

Elk die readily to the 6.5mm CM.

Do you shoot well?

I've read a few articles (having never been to Africa myself) from guys like Wayne Van Zwoll who took a 6.5 Creedmoor to Africa for plains game. It worked fine up to Eland, where it ended up being a bit of a rodeo. I've heard that same story a few times, that it worked fine until the hunter shot an Eland, where the bullet placement was fine, but the animal didn't die like it was supposed to. I found one of those articles:

https://www.africahunting.com/threads/the-6-5-creedmoor.36072/

In theory, picking a tough, heavy bullet in the 6.5 CM and placing your shots well should work fine, and I would do it, were I you. But I like stunt-shooting.

I’ve read somewhere many many times that headstamps don’t matter, just boolits. The 6.5 should be over kill. Take a .22 creedmire and connect the dots. It’ll fly flatter than .294 laserjet at 1000 yards where most game is shot...Right??

Could it work? Probably. Would I gamble that kind of time and money on a bare minimum cartridge? Nope.

LOL.

Wayne has a pretty bad memory based on that article.



There was nobody named Don any where about when that 600 yd elk was killed.



Funny how memories change over time.

Thanks for showing up and giving your input, Don, particularly on the Bergers thread.

Would not be my first choice.

LOL.

It is a great example of how faulty human recollection can be after the fact when the adrenaline is flowing.

At least you made a good wind call for Wayne. THAT is the hard part about hitting at 600yds.

I went to a local zoo two weeks ago and was looking at some eland. They are pretty big. I know the 6.5 Creedmoor is pretty popular and I have one myself but it's not magic. In all my years of reading hunting stuff and getting on forums I can't remember much being discussed about shooting zebra and eland with 260s and 6.5x55s, so why the Creedmoor? As someone said above why take a marginal cartridge where something a bit bigger would be better. I'd say it would be brilliant on the smaller gazelles and antelopes but I'd prefer something bigger for the larger game. Not necessarily a magnum but a .30-06, especially with the cost and fees of losing a wounded animal.

I know people always bring up Bell and his 6.5 and 7x57 but I bet back in those days they (the old time Afica hunters) never bothered to write about the animals that they wounded and lost.

Here's a little sample of how big eland can get. This South African was taken with two shots from a .300 Winchester Magnum, since the first bullet (a highly regarded "premium" hit the leg bone just above the big shoulder joint and failed to penetrate the chest. Luckily, the bull trotted a few yards and then paused, and the second bullet went behind the shoulder.

The next problem was loading the eland into a Land Cruiser, to be cut up at the ranch's butcher shop. The first attempt involved a steel cable attached to another Land Cruiser, and an empty fuel drum used as a roller. After a few failed attempts, another old African solution was tried, digging holes for the rear tires to lower the bed of the Land Cruiser, and lots of manpower. That finally worked.

Yeah eland are the size of a clydesdale. If you want to use the 6.5 go ahead, as long as you are in a reasonably controlled (open) area and your PH can back you up. I used a 375H&H on mine and it was no bang flop.And they certainly do fill up a Landcruiser!

Eland are big with thick bones and very heavily muscled wrapped up in thick hide. The small 6.5s will work but are far from optimum. Don’t limit the shot angles available to you. Bring or borrow a rifle from your PH more suitable to size of the Eland.

To me cartridges starting with .3 is a good to start.

Good gracious..........I've never got close enough to a live one to understand how huge they are. Great pics. I was astounded though to see a big mature eland bull jump an 8ft fence like it wasn't even trying very hard. They are amazing animals for sure.

Yep, they can sure JUMP!

I think about any thing can be killed with an appropriate 6.5 bullet at a reasonable impact velocity. I don't ever see Africa in my future, but have been in on the making of many moose, caribou and a few bear kills. My grandson will be shooting a Tikka 6.5 Creedmoor this fall for caribou and moose using 127 grain Barnes LRX bullets. We won't be shooting past 200 yards, the exception could be a broadside shot at a stationary caribou. Might stretch out to 300 yards if wind is fairly calm.

I will be backing them up as we don't loose wounded critters. I will be carrying a 30-06 for the caribou hunt, loaded with 168 grain TTSX bullets. That would also be my choice for a plains game hunt in Africa. I still remember watching a African hunting show and this Eland that was bigger and more muscular looking then any moose I have shot, walks up to a high fence and jumps over it like an Olympic athlete.

Later in the show I also remember watching a guy shoot another big monster looking Eland with a .338 Winny and the 250 grain Partition, a cartridge and bullet I have had wonderful success with here in Alaska. It looked like a broadside shoulder shot and the Eland ran about 30 yards and the guy put what I thought was a lung shot into him and he disappeared into the brush. They found the Eland dead and hour or so later about 200 yards away in the thick stuff.

I think the 6.5 Creed would be ok for me on some plains game, but for the Eland I would prefer the .375 H&H and 270 grain Barnes X bullets, that and a broad side 40 yard shot.

Of course it will work, game cullers use it on Eland and even the 243 but as others have said not my first choice. A premium or Mono 160 probably would not make it through the shoulder joint, but I haven't and wouldn't try it. Trophy fees for Eland are high. A wounded Eland can go miles at a walk that you would have to be jogging to keep up with. To me Eland are an excellent reason to use a medium bore on a plains game hunt. The 7mm mag with a premium 175 is where I start and the 375 is where I end but bigger would not hurt either. The various British 33 & 35s were designed with Eland in mind.

I thought Bell used a 7x57 mauser

You might want to ask your PH first. He may take a dim view of the CM for eland.

On the other hand, you draw blood, you pay for it!

Here are the rules for Namibia:

Firearms

As per the Nature Conservation Ordinance No 4 of 1975:

No person shall use a revolver, pistol or automatic firearm when hunting game or use a firearm of which the bullet has an energy at the muzzle of the barrel which is lower than the following when hunting a species of game indicated there under:

Small Game:
(e.g. Dik-Dik; Steenbok; Duiker; Springbok)
Minimum caliber: .243 (or equivalent caliber in mm)
Energy: 1350 Joule

Medium Game:
(e.g. Hartebeest; Oryx; Wildebeest; Kudu; Eland and all exotic species)
Minimum caliber: .270 (or equivalent caliber in mm)
Energy: 2700 Joule

Dangerous Game:
(e.g. Elephant; Hippo; Rhino; Buffalo; Lion)
Minimum caliber: .375 (or equivalent caliber in mm)
Energy: 5400 Joule

The Namibia PH Assoc recommends 9.3 x 62 as the minimum for eland.

405wcf

Bell used a 6.5x54 M-S in a beautiful little rifle on the same animals that he used the 7x57 and other cartridges on, including all the dangerous game.

Yep, and one of the others was the .318 Westley-Richards Nitro Express--with a .330" diameter, 250-grain bullet. He used the .318 when he absolutely needed the extra, straight-line penetration--which wasn't often.

One thing that gets discussed here in Australia is cartridges for sambar deer. They are a large deer from india that are running wild in the Victorian high country and up into NSW. They have a reputation for being tough and like to hang out in very thick bush. I guess they are used to living in thick jungle back home. Sambar have a reputation for running several hundred metres after a hit with cartridges like .303 and .30-06. A deer that runs 200 metres and then falls over in very thick mountian bush can take most of a day to find.

So experienced sambar hunters tend to pick cartridges that not just kill deer after a 200 metre dash but kills and drops them on the spot.

Slip a little bullet between the ribs and most cartridges will kill a large tough animal like eland. But how far will the eland run before it dies?

I know two blokes that have shot sambar with 7mm-08s and the deer have run off and were not recovered. No doubt they died somewhere out in the forest. I can personally attest that a .35 Whelen drops them on the spot if hit right. And I can also personally attest that a sambar, hit eight inches too far back with a .35 Whelen, will run 100 metres before falling over.

So personally, I think that when discussing cartridges for large, tough game, the question shouldn't be what cartridges will kill them, but rather what cartridges will kill and anchor them in the immediate vicinity.

If I was to use a 6.5 on Eland, which I would not do by choice. My preferred shot placement would be right behind the ear!

I obviously don't have a clue about sambar deer, but it appears a mature male weighs about 400lbs. No offense Elvis, but I would have a hard time believing they are any tougher than a bull elk, or a variety of African antelope which die rather easily when the right bullet is put in the right place, even with a 7mm08. I would bet most of them would likely do the same with the 6.5CM or PRC and good bullets.

I shot an eland with a .375 H&H using a 300 grain TSX (used the same load for everything to keep it simple). The eland went down pretty quickly. I like the 6.5 CM for a lot of medium game hunting but I think an eland might be stretching it. No doubt a 6.5 could work fine if everything goes right, but there's not much margin for error. Personally, I would probably opt for at least a .30 caliber. But that's just me.

In my experience very few game animals run 200 m/yds and then die without another shot.

If they don't hit the dirt in 100yds or so then it typically ain't over without further shooting.

Vast majority of the time this is a shot placement issue rather than a cartridge issue.

Tell your buddies with the 7-08s to shoot better as a sambar deer is much much smaller than an eland.

Just Sayin.

You don't realise how big Eland are till you stand next to them.
I shot mine with a 308 Norma using 200gr projectiles, if I were to do it again I'd take my 338WM.
6.5CM is marginal at best.

I used 35 Whelen with 250 gr. Northforks and, upon seeing the Eland was thinking I should have something bigger. The Whelen worked wonderfully, but the size of these beasts can give one pause.

I have shot several eland. Most with a .375 HH as I prefer to get them on the ground quickly. I have shot one with a .300WM, it died quickly. The PH's I have hunted with all prefer the hunter use a .375HH as it does the job with no apologies. A 6.5 Creedmore would be fine on everything up to wildebeest/kudu/eland/zebra. If you are spending your money on an African hunt, do what the PH suggests. He has the experience, you do not.

For heavier game many (if not most) 6.5CM Shooters are drinking the cool-aid and trying the wrong bullets. But with the correct bullet the 6.5CM is going to do anything the old 6.5X54M/S did in the 20s and do it a bit better. The focus today in the magazine articles is on long distance bullets. That's not a good way to go for what you are thinking about using it for.

Go with something tough and/or heavy. Maybe a round Nose shape and you also will do as well as the old shooters with their 6.5s did.
I'd look hard at the Norma and Woodleigh bullets of 156 to 160 grains as well as the Barnes 130 grain and the Nosler 140 grain Partitions.

I shot my one and only eland with a 6.5x55 using 156 grain Norma factory loads.

I had planned to shoot the eland with a 375 H&H, but we were stalking a herd of Springbuck when we jumped this guy out of his bed and he presented at a perfect angle to put the bullets into the heart and lung area without having to shoot through heavy leg and shoulder bones. I shot it 3 times, all 3 bullets hitting lungs or heart and would each have been fatal, but I kept shooting until the PH said to stop. The PH was skeptical of my choice of the 6.5x55 for my light rifle, so we went over the correct aim points and angles on the game that I was scheduled to shoot. I also shot a box of ammo on his range to show him that I could handle a rifle safely and shoot 4 MOA offhand and 2 MOA off the sticks. The outfitter recommended Norma factory loads for the 6.5x55 and Winchester factory loads for the 375 H&H as they were regularly stocked items in Maun. Also, as recommended by the outfitter, I brought 60 rounds of ammo for each rifle with me and, IIRC, had to pay some sort of import tax on each round of ammunition that I brought into the country, but don't recall getting a refund when I brought ammo back home with me. That was over 30 years ago, so things have almost certainly changed since then.

The pair of rifles that I put together for my next, final, trip to Africa are a pair of Interarms Mark X mannlichers in 7x57 and 9.3x62, with the plan to shoot the larger game with the 9.3x62 and a properly constructed bullet in the 250 to 300 grain range. Plan, plan, plan, but be prepared to adapt to the unexpected and overcome it with the resources at hand.

Gray fox,

When you shoot the Eland what margin of error are you comfortable with?

How do feel personally about your ability to kill the Eland with a 6.5 Creedmoor?

The fact that your asking, leads me to believe you know the answer.

First off, I do not have and have never shot game with a 6.5cr. But I have shot an eland and seen another shot. They have to be seen to believe how big they are. I shot mine with an 8mm Rem mag and 200Tsx. The other was shot with a 300wby and 180tsx. I almost shot one with a 308 and 168tsx and would have taken the shot had one presented itself. I would shoot an eland with a 6.5 IF I was shooting a very very good bullet like a 130tsx AND the range was not too great and I was presented a near perfect shot. But if I was going after eland specifically I personally would have a bigger rifle. Which come to think of it was why I had an 8 mag on the safari I shot the eland instead of my usual 308.

Good luck, ben.

I have taken either 4 or 5 eland (or is it elands) all with my 270 and 130 Barnes TSX or TTSX bullets. Those bullets will penetrate about 30” of eland. All went between 30 to 40 paces before falling over.

Incidentally all of the plains game I have taken hit the dirt in about 30 to 45 paces with good shot placement. Few fall over in their tracks. If they go over 50 or so then you just may have a rodeo to deal with. This applies to buffalo as well.

The last 2 or 3 trips I made I have found myself asking “would than darned 6.5 CM have worked”? The answer, “yes”. The shots are within 250 yards. And the 6.5 CM won’t cause your shooting to get worse and worse over the course of a trip. I have had that happen and it is very distressing. I don’t own one but would take it.

Rick,

I have seen that deterioration in shooting with a number of shooters, and not just on cull hunts where a dozen or more animals are shot. It happens even on the typical 10-day "plains game" safari, especially with hunters who buy the "African game is super-tough" myth and bring a rifle that kicks more than they're used to.

A good example was a guy on a two-week cull hunt in RSA, who brought a 7x57 and 9.3x62, thinking he could use the 7x57 on the "deer-sized" animals from springbok to hartebeest, and the 9.3x62 on the really tough gemsbok, zebra, blue wildebeest, etc. Turned out that after a few days he couldn't take the recoil of the 9.3x62, and started misplacing shots. He went to the 7x57 for all his shooting, and everything died quickly--including gemsbok, zebra and blue wildebeest.

Have seen the same thing with several hunters who brought one rifle from a .300 magnum on up. Have also seen some who handled the recoil fine, including a guy in his early 30s (on his very first big game hunt) who used a .338 Winchester Magnum very effectively on a dozen animals. But in my experience that is the exception more than the rule--and I have personally killed enough of the elk-sized plains game with cartridges from the .30-06 down to the 7x57 to know they work fine--IF the bullet is put in the right place, and penetrates sufficiently.

Then there's the story I've told before on the Campfire. The wife of one of my hunting buddies finally got interested in hunting in her late 30s. But instead of starting with whitetails in West Virginia, where they live, her first big game hunt took place in South Africa. He prepared her well, starting with a .22 rimfire and working up to a big-game suitable centerfire.

They went to Africa and she killed three big game animals with one shot. One was an impala (if I recall correctly the first), and the other two a mature gemsbok and blue wildebeest. The cartridge was the .243 Winchester and the bullet the 85-grain Nosler Partition.

Have been meaning to ask you a question. Have heard several PHs say that African plains game is harder to kill than North American game. But so far I cannot remember an African-born PH who has hunted in North America. However, do know a long-time PH who was born in America (in Florida, I believe) who was involved with an "industry" elk hunt several years ago. I ended up killing my biggest bull--one of several in a post-rut group--with a .30-06 at around 250 yards, using a "premium" bullet. The bull stood quartering away, and at the shot "locked up," standing there until the other bulls started running by him.

The bull then tried to follow them, only making a very slow few yards before stopping, broadside. Whereupon I put another bullet behind the shoulder, and the bull collapsed. It was the first time the ex-PH had ever seen an elk taken, and he said, "I had no idea elk were so tough!"

John,
I don’t know a single PH who has hunted in NA. All of them like to go fishing when there are no hunting clients. They all speak highly of tiger fish and fishing from the beach. Beer and bries (sp) are involved.

None think that African game is unusually tough but they all have much to say about poor shooting. They think a “two four three” with a partition will work just fine if the shooter can perform. Many, as kids, hunted with a two two two.

They universally dislike muzzle brakes and can’t understand why anybody would bring more than a 30/06 for plains game.
There you go.
Rick

It can be done but wouldn't be my first choice especially in brush country.
When you hang a mature eland bull next to a mature cape buffalo bull the eland is larger.
I witnessed a mature eland bull soak up three rapid shots in the heart lungs zone from a 6.5 SAUM pushing 140 gr. Northforks at 260 yards with no reaction to the impacts.
He died but I remember thinking a larger caliber with more energy would be a good thing.

How were his heart and lungs after that?

So can we assume "no reaction" means he didn't go anywhere after the first shot?

Have seen a number of eland and Cape buffalo "hanging." Whether the eland is bigger depends on where each animal is hunted. Both vary considerably in average size and weight in different areas--and of course age. Buffalo have heavier bones, especially ribs and shoulders, also much thicker hide.

In general, eland are a lot like moose, big but not that hard to kill. Both also often stand there after being shot in a vital area, or wander a relatively short distance, apparently stunned, after being shot, allowing two or even "three rapid shots" to be taken. Have seen it happen with cartridges from the 7x57 up to some that, according to common assumptions, would drop them immediately. Once saw an Alaskan bull moose dropped with a good shot from .375 H&H--and then stand up again, but not go anywhere. Have seen the same sort of thing with eland.

Have a friend who, after the PH saw him shoot, was asked to cull eland on a Namibian ranch. He killed around 30, from young cows to big bulls. His rifle was a combination gun with a 7x57 barrel, and the bullet he used was the 154-grain Hornady Interlock Spire Point.

Rick,

In recent years I have encountered more PHs with the same basic opinion. In fact, the one who guided me on to my first Cape buffalo firmly believed the .30-06 and .375 are all that a safari hunter should bring for anything--and he was a very experienced Zimbabwean. That's because he'd seen too many bad shots on everything, including elephants, from guys who were over-gunned. He was especially suspicious of any client who showed up with an iron-sighted, big-bore double rifle in anything who firmly believed nothing less with would kill a buffalo or elephant. Often he had "adventures" with wounded game when guiding such clients. The PH I've hunted with most says he was often "seriously outgunned" by his buffalo clients, yet still often had to follow up wounded bulls and finish them off with his .375 H&H.

Used to run into more PHs who believe African game is much harder to kill back when I started hunting over there. Of course none of them had ever hunted in North America, and many had only a vague idea of bullet construction. In fact some still insisted on clients using only solids on buffalo--which in my experience is a major reason buffalo acquired such a reputation for being so tough.

John,
Had an hour long visit via What’s App with one of my PH pals this morning. We had a discussion about COVID, the lockdown, kudu populations, and so on.
We had a very brief discussion about cartridges primarily because the topic had been discussed before. As always, he thinks anything will work provided the hunter can hit the right spot with a good bullet. He mentioned that many local hunters favor the 308 for collecting their plains game. Early on, he used a 30/06 as his camp rifle but now uses a 270 after watching one perform successfully on many occasions.
He thinks a 375 H&H is fully capable on buffalo. A few years ago he won a 470 double and promptly traded it for a new Land Cruiser. He has a great deal of respect for wounded buffalo having had several of his friends killed by them. A well placed first shot is of primary importance.
Another PH from Namibia hunts Caprivi. He uses his 308 for everything including buffalo and has been doing so successfully in the 20+ years I have known him. He carries his 375 primarily to make his clients feel like they are with a “real” PH.
Incidentally, there is going to be some great plains game hunting as soon as the travel ban is lifted. Those animals are eating and reproducing and the numbers will be very high. My pal says he is seeing more big kudu bulls than in many years.
As you know I have used the 270 and 280 mostly. If I had a 6.5 CM I‘d load some ETip or TTSX and get going. I may drag my new 30/06 if I need a bigger “high powered” big game hunting rifle.
Let’s go!

Am not surprised about the .308, because that's been my experience as well. Part of the reason so many like it for plains game is cup-and-core 180s (or even 165s) work very reliably.

"A well placed first shot is of primary importance." Yep! Given that, not many buffalo seriously charge...

We would no doubt have a great time hunting plains game, but to tell the truth am pretty much done with Africa. Tend to prefer hunting locally these days, which does not require long plane flights, and allows me to bring the meat home!

John,
Have been thinking and the worst rodeo I have ever had involved a female impala that I hit too far back with my Echols Legend 7 Rem Mag using 160 Swift AFrame bullets. Surely an female impala should have been impressed with that rifle and cartridge and bullet combination. We chased that thing for around three hours before the rodeo ended. Poor shooting = not so much fun.
I did truly enjoy the very cold beer that ended that experience.

John,
On the 308, my Namibian pal likes Federal Fusion in either 165 or 180, I can’t recall which.

I the guy I made 4 hunts with liked his .308 and 300WM (both with 180 Speer Mag Tips) for everything. He liked the 300 in Namibia because it made head shooting farther out a lot easier ( he did alot of culling) This was in '95, right after the Apartheid Sanctions were lifted. At that time, he used a double 12ga and slugs (SA made) for backup on buffalo hunts. He then liked to use Winchester Failsafes and I took him some Barnes 180s on my '98 trip. I took him a 338WM and .375 H&H ( both SS Mod 70s) also on my '98 trip. He retired his 12ga, ha. My 2002 trip I took him a Custom .243 with a 27" barrel for his cull rifle. ( It was formerly a 6x47 that I had converted) and I left him a Whitworth Express .375 as partial hunt payment. It was fun.