Mule Deer,

While going through the 29 pages of 308 loads on the reloading forum, I came across your post of using 46.0 grns of Varget for just about all of your 308 loads using 150 and 165 grain bullets.

Are you still using this combination, or have you found other powders that you prefer?

Thanks in advance.

That's what I mostly still use.

That said, there are a bunch of good powders in that general burn-rate range that also works well--which is one reason the .308 is generally very easy to handload.

Varget is the powder of preference for Palma shooters for those bullet weights. And that includes a ton of testing. That;s what I use for Palma but for hunting loads MR-2000 added about 50-75 fps and shot just as well. 4064 does not suck as well. 4320 is an excellent powder as well
I would start with the Varget load you listed.

Varget is good. There are others that are as well. I just did my first, quick try with 155s over I4166. It did really well considering I haven't done any tweaking or true testing as of yet.

Thanks to you all!

I was looking at Varget as a starting point and branching out from there. Getting 2800 fps with a 150 grn E-Tip to shoot well is the goal.

I picked up some 4166 a while ago and good to hear it did well. What kind of velocities are are you getting?

Thanks again.

I've had excellent results with TAC,Varget,Accurate 4064 and IMR 4895.

I'm getting 2700 fps with 150gr E-Tips in 16" barreled LWRC REPR's with CFE-223 powder, MOA accuracy out on 300 yard steel, if your rifle has 20, or 22 inch barrel, should get you at least another 150 fps.

Have found 4166 an excellent substitute for Varget when Varget becomes scarce--which it seems to during every buying panic.

Varget works well but I have gotten more velocity with TAC and accuracy was still good.

I like H4895 with 150gn Hornady SPs. That's in my skinny barreled Ruger Ultralight. Three shots will go under an inch. It can be a little finicky so once I found a good load I stopped right there. I came home and pulled my Varget loads down.

NAGW, but my favorites

Varget, RL15, H4895......All work well. I mostly use Varget.

I'm sticking with CFE 223 and BL-C(2)

Varget's a good .308 powder, but I've seen slightly better overall accuracy with H4895 using bullets in the 150 -180 grain range. Sometimes, you might give up a little velocity with H4895 when compared with Varget.

Another vote for TAC.

Almost anything except Goex 1F works in the 308.

No one uses 748?

The 308 is not picky as a rule (I own one that is picky, but it's an odd ball)

4895, 4064, H335, 748, 4320, Varget, RL-15 <<< (the one that my "picky rifle" likes) BL-C2, AC2230 and AC2495 have all been good for me at one time or another, in one gun or another. Some better and some worse, but few were bad.

The powders that seem to be the most consistently accurate in the various 308s I have owned in the last 40 years or so were 4064, 4895, 748 and RL15

Varget gets wonderful reviews, but in all my 308s most showed me very good accuracy with it, but only one ever gave me it's best accuracy with Varget. That seems opposite of many men I have talked to (many of whom I trust completely, so I have no true explanation for what I have seen, but it IS what I have personally seen with my rifles) On a scale of 1 to 10, Varget has usually given me "8s" but in only 1 rifle, a bull barreled M70 Winchester, did Varget ever give me the best groups I ever got.
In all others I got my tightest groups with other powders. Varget was nearly always good to very good for me, but never "best". Even in my M70 Target rifle, the Varget groups were as good as my 748 and 4064 groups, but not any better.

In the last 10-15 years I sold most of my 308s. Thinking back now I can count 12 of them. The 2 I own now are a Mossberg MVP and an AR10 Type I made myself. The "10" is the picky one, and has been the most challenging 308 I ever owned for accuracy, but I found a load with 180 grain bullets and RL-10 that gives me .650 to .8" consistently at 100 meters, so I quite there. My MVP has never been a "one-holer" but groups of 1-1/8" to 1-1/4 with good grade hunting bullets are normal, and it's never let me down. I have killed several deer, elk and antelope with it and come to like it quite a lot. I use the same load that my AR10ish rifle like sin my MVP and it's not as tight from the Mossberg, but plenty tight enough to kill game with The AR shoots at .8" or a bit less, and the MVP shoots the same loads to about 1-1/4" The very best accuracy I have seen from the Mossberg so far were with 130 grain Barnes TSX and 49.0 or 748. Those shoot to .625" for 5 shots.

Not a lot to go on, but maybe it will be helpful to those that are interested.

748? Years ago my deer load was 48.5 grains under a 150 grain flat base Interlock. This was in R-P brass and lit by the older nickel finish Winchester 8 1/2 - 120 or the 80's vintage CCI 250.

Yes, I've had about equal luck with H4895 and Varget with a 165 grain Hornady IL over 17 years. Folks on here told me Varget would give me an edge, but I didn't see it.

One alleged quality of Varget is that it seems to be pretty indifferent to primer selection, which might be a benefit right about now.

I've had better luck with RL15 and H4895, but haven't done much testing with my latest .30/06 Short.

I don’t like how Varget measures (Actually hate it) compared to TAC

Some smart-ass gun writer once wrote that the .308 would probably shoot well with double-based horse manure.

I've not tried it, but he was probably right

That gun writer probably drank one too many Tumbleweeds while pecking away on his laptop...

Or he could be on to something!

I remember using Reloder 15 in my 303s and rimless 303s (308 Wins) with great success. That was before the Marine shooting team tried it. I am certain they got the idea from me.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^

And you are FULL of horse manure ! ! no smiley.

Jerry

You're still with us? I thought they sedated you in the evenings.

Well, I normally skip the horse manure. I ‘slipped’ tonight.

Jerry

That's because your mind is failing. You've got to watch your step when the chips are down.

You are well versed in the ‘chip’

Jerry

Hush now. Let the meds work.

Yeah, I don’t take advantage of the defenseless.

I’m out.

Jerry

Waiting with bated (not baited) breath for my .308 Henry SS to come back home from recall so I can try some stuff out. Limited testing with ammo assembled for something else showed promise. Lots of brass and appropriate powders, bullets, and primers on hand.

I used 4064 until Varget came about. I'm on my second, third, or whichever 8 pound keg of Varget as it woks in a lot of things. Be Well, RZ.

Wow , I must be old school ( or a " Retro-Grouch ) .

IMR 3031 for 150 / 165 grainers either in my Savage Euro Classic bolt gun , Savage 99 ( 300 Sav ) or my Springfield M1A match gun .

One holers at 100 .

This year my powder quandary seems to be all about my 4166 temp stability vs my CFE223 extra velocity.

I'm with Mr Bulkie Roll and 3031...proven in a game where 100 shot groups are the norm.

Not so much when temperatures vary. Though I also still use IMR3031 for a few handloads, just not as many. It was the very first smokeless powder I purchased when starting to handload in the mid-1960s--for the 7.62 Russian, essentially a rimmed .308.

Also understand not wanting to change to some new-fangled powder like Varget, introduced only a quarter-century ago. Some of my rifles still shoot best with FFg--though haven't tried it in the .308. (Come to think of it, a good FFg like Olde Eynesford might just do OK in the .308 Winchester!)

How is that conflict going between them?

The 46 grains of Varget and a 150 Sierra works really well in the three 308’s I have. I need to try some Partitions to see if they are as accurate as the Sierra GameKing’s.

In my 308's (Tikka T3x and BLR) I've had the best combination of accuracy and velocity with TAC, plus it meters like water!
I've also found that sometimes, when nothing else seemed to work, IMR3031 would give the best results.

Varget or TAC are about all you need for the 308.

My first stop for any new 308 is a 165 and 46.0 Varget in Lapua brass with a Fed 210M.

Checked Quickload They said 3 best powders were RL17, W760, And Big Game. That is about what I found with my 7mm-08 I would

add PP2000mr and RL16. The RL16 is great for low temperatures, cold weather does not effect it. It was the same for 150gr Accubonds and 165gr Accubonds.

Some smart-ass gun writer once wrote that the .308 would probably shoot well with double-based horse manure.
[/quote]
There`s always one in the crowd..

So you've used all these in the 308, or this is just conjecture based on quick load?

When powder quantity meets case capacity those best three will likely be found to be on the slow side.

Big Game has also proven to be very cold-resistant in the several cartridges I use it in, from the 7mm-08 up to the 9.3x62 Mauser.

But the OP asked about the .308, not the 7mm08. Ramshot only lists one load for 165s with Big Game in the .308, and none for 150s. TAC was originally specifically designed for the 5.56x45 and 7.62x51 NATO rounds, the reason it works so well in the .223 Remington and .308 Winchester.

What's your Varget load for 180s? Partitions specifically.

Recently started using TAC for one of my .223's with great results right off. Was not aware of the design/development history. Varget has been my go to powder for .308 loads (150/165). If supply issues force me to switch to a different powder for my .308's, TAC will be the one. Thanks for the information.

Been wanting to try TAC, but never found any around here. Once I started buying powder online, I bought a couple pounds, liked it in my .223s, so just ordered a few more. Always good to have choices on hand.

Ok I do not have a 308 now I,m working up loads for a 7mm-08. If the powders I list will not work I,m sorry I,m wrong.

They all work in my 7mm-08. I have had good results if you us the top loads from Quick load.

It's not just the case capacity, the size of the bore figures in as well.

Have rarely handloaded 180-grain bullets in the .308, primarily because 150s and 165s (or even 130 TTSXs) have proven plenty for big game up to an including elk-size in North America and Africa. But did load some 180 Ballistic Tips for an article on handloading the .308 once. Tried both Varget and Big Game (because 180 are where Big Game really starts to work in the .308), and Varget shot more accurately, and Big Game got a little more velocity. In fact Varget got 3-shot groups right around the legendary half-inch at 100 yards, while Big Game loads averaged around .8 inch.

This was from a Ruger American with a 22-inch barrel, and velocities were in the 2600s with both powders.The charge of Varget was 44.0 grains, and for Big Game 49.0. You might need to drop those slightly when loading 180 Partitions, but maybe not. Might also comment that the present 180 Ballistic Tip is among the heavy-jacketed models, which act similarly to Partitions on big game, particularly at moderate muzzle velocities.

Thanks .... I'm getting a load for a spare rifle for a moose hunt and the 180 NPs are the most appropriate bullet I have on hand other than some 180gr Hornady SPs. Time is too short to order more as this was a last minute deal.

Keep us posted on your findings.

At 308 velocity, those 180gr Hornadys would probably work fine.

The powder capacity to bore ratio, along with the weight/sectional density of the bullets normally used.

After plugging hypotheticals into Quickload and Quicktarget and wanting a long range correction of less than 8moa on a 200 yard zero...

If I build a 250 Savage in September [probably] it will be a 100 gr NBT with CFE223 and kill a mule doe.

If I build a 25-06, 6.5-06, 280AI, or 7mmRM in September [probably] it will be with IMR4166 and kill a mule buck.

I have the barrels, the reamers, the powder, but.... Sept 3 my son is hiring a nanny that will get me out of some Covid 19 grandparenting duties. If that does not work out, I may not be going hunting in 2020.

Clake,

Covid has screwed up quite a few hunting-season schedules this year. Sorry to hear that.

When I couldn't find Varget I happened to read about IMR 8208 XBR as a good temperature stable substitute. Hodgdon mentions it for use with 150 and 165 gr bullets. I switched and have not gone back to the difficult to obtain Varget.

Covid screwed up the chances of getting drawn too. Bugle had an article on the huge increase in big game tag applications for many states.

HAHA! Whenever I am asked what I use in my 308 rifles, I always say any powder will do as long as it's Varget.:>)

Truth be known I haven't had an issue finding a powder the 308 will not shoot , including Trail Boss, ! LOL
Cat

Yeah, Trail Boss works great in the .308.

Another fine .308 powder that Bill Wilson (of Wilson Combat) turned me onto is Alliant AR-Comp. Unfortunately, it's just about completely disappeared. Tried to find some recently with an Internet search, an no-go.

Another fine .309 powder, however, IS widely available on the Internet, and right now is one sale in many places--IMR 4166, one of the Enduron powders. Back when the Endurons appeared in 2015, one of the reasons was how much difficulty Hodgdon was having in gettting the Extreme Powders (including H4350 and Varget) from the Australian plant where they're made.

As a result, the original Endurons tended to be similar in burn-rate to popular Extremes, including 4451 being similar to H4350 and 4166 being similar to Varget. I was assigned to do an article on IMR 4166 that year for the Hodgdon Annual Manual, and they sent me an 8-pound jug to playe with. I ended up trying it in around 8 cartridges, including the .308, where it works just about like Varget--if Varget included a decoppering agent.

I still had a good supply of Varget on hand back then--and still have quite a bit left, along with most of that jug of 4166. Which is why I haven't been desperately searching for Varget. If I was, I'd consider ordering another jug of IMR 4166.

Not to change this off of the 308, but have you tried 4166 in the 9.3x62 John?

Not yet. Haven't had any need to, but am sure it would work fine.

No worries, figured since Varget is a bit tough to grab 4166 may be a good alternative if 15 doesn’t work out for me.

15 goes through my powder measures smoother than 4166.

And 4166 has proven more temp-resistant than Reloder 15 in my tests. Depends on what you want!

That never hurts a thing in my book. I tend to like 15, so if it’s a bit better I’m okay with that!

John, have you used 4166 in .223? Hodgdon's data shows somewhat less velocity than Varget in that cartridge.

I recently came into my first 308 in a number of years. Being in Kodiak, I don't have access to a huge number of powders, I brought some Varget with me. I tried Varget and 8208. 43.5 gains is a great load for 178 ELD-X, 41.7 works great with 200 grain Bergers

Yes, I did try one load for the Hodgdon manual article, which involved comparing results from their test barrel and my rifles, working up to maximum loads. It was accurate but on the slow side, partly because the rifle I used had a 22" barrel, and the test barrel was 24". But in my rifle it was a little slower than expected--and 4166 also didn't flow through a .223 neck very well, bridging fairly often.

It worked fine in the .243 Win., .257 Roberts, .308 Win., .303 British and .45-70, with fine accuracy and velocities very close to Hodgdon's data.

Going through a drawer with some old back issues that I thought were worth saving, I picked out the August '94 issue of Shooting Times where Rick Jamison did the most exhaustive .308 test that I've seen to date. "The .308 in Depth!" "Searching For The All-Around Short-Action Load" Rick did a 1,000 round test and determined that the 165-168 grain bullet range was the ideal bullet weight for a .308. Eight pages into the article is the sub-title "Revealing the Ultimate .308 Loading".

Powders:
Highest velocity: RL 15
Lowest charge weight to get pressure: N-202
Lowest extreme spread on pressure: VV N-550
Lowest standard deviation on pressure: VV N-550
Lowest extreme spread on velocity: RL 15
Lowest standard deviation on velocity: AA 2520
Smallest three shot group: N-202
Smallest five shot group: RL 15
Smallest 10 shot group: W748

In the article itself he writes that RL 15, W748 and VV N-550 gave the highest velocity and then writes that the powders that produced the most uniform results in terms of velocity extreme spread and standard deviation would be the AA 2520, RL 15 and H4895.

I haven't reloaded in years, so I don't know if these powders are still available or that others haven't proven better. For what it's worth.

Windfall,

Many things have changed since then--including Reloder 15 and VV N-550.

Back then RL-15 was VERY temperature-sensitive. That was improved around 2000.

VV-N550 is now a temp-resistant powder which includes a decoppering agent.

Back when I started gunsmithing, it was widely accepted, if you built a 308 which didn't shoot with 4895 and 168's, you might as well tear it apart and try again. 4895 is still my favorite powder for 308 accuracy loads. I have a jug of 4166 to try and just have not gotten around to it. GD

Thank you, sir. I will reserve it for .308.