Hello again, getting ready to move on to the 200 grain ELDX in my son’s .300WM. This process of trying to find a load for 178/180’s has me second guessing my methods.

So, start with one powder, one powder charge and look for a node with seating depth...and then play with different powders/charge amounts...

OR,

Start with one or more powders and charge weights to find what seems to shoot the best and then move to seating depth adjustment to fine tune?

What say you?

Thank you for trying to keep me sane.

300winnie
PS. Also posted in Reloading/Big Game

According to the cheat sheet I got from Berger a while back, they recommend Method 1 with their bullets. I tend to pick a powder and play with charges, after getting as close to the lands as the magazine allows. Seldom futz around much with seating-depth as long as I get decent hunting accuracy with the bullet of choice.

I've struggled with load development as much as anybody so I can't give good advice, but one thing that occurs to me is: in the last 20 years or so, there are so many factory loads that shoot lights out in modern guns, using factory deep seated OAL dimensions....it makes me wonder if chasing the lands isn't secondary to barrel harmonics?

If you want to go down the rabbit hole here is an interesting study of bullet jump. Bottom line, the optimum (unless you want to continually chase the lands) is further back than most think.
I do powder charge first, find an accurate velocity node, then try seating adjustments.

Been handloading for nearly 50 yrs. now and have always been able to find an accurate load by means of powder charge. I have never fooled with seating depth, I have always seated bullets to loading manual COAL specs.

Sorry you are having issues. I always start at .020" off the lands with cup and core bullets and also premiums like partitions. Then i adjust charge weight. Hence, "work up your load". On a 300wm, ill jump 1/2 a grain at a time until i reach max book loads. You'll see the accuracy nodes, as you work up and find the optimal charge weight.

I've said that if accuracy was a foot long, then 10 inches of it is finding the right bullet. The remaining two inches are not achievable but some of it can be.

IMO changing powders holds the best probability.....then the amount of it and lastly the "jump" to the lands. All this assumes that the gun's bedding is fine and the scope is fine as well.

As a result of this I have decided that if I can get real 1 1/4" 5-shot groups. the frustration of improving on it isn't worth the gain......I'm a hunter and not a benchrest shooter.

BTW....there is absolutely nothing correct about what I just typed....it's simply the way I do things.....right or wrong!

Been loading since ‘66 and I “grew up” just going at it with powder charge. I did experiment with my 243 varmint loads but my seating depth changes were rudimentary at best. I got more serious about it with a Hornady tool

My most accurate “carry around” rifle is probably a 221 FB, Model 700. I’ve related this before but on one occasion it put 10, 40 gr Berger HP into 0.505” at 100 yds. I figured that if I wanted to really investigate the two techniques that it would be the rifle to use. So I went at both ways, first changing powder charges and a recommended seating depth and then tinkering with seating depth both ways. Then I went the other way starting just barely off the lands with a middle of the road powder charge and then moving the seating depth. I could generally see a pattern in group tightening or loosening. Then to changing powder charges.

Not necessarily the perfect study design with me doing all the shooting but with both techniques, I ended up at the same point...the same powder and seating depth.

So now I still start with powder charge tests and if I get the velocities and reasonable accuracy I want, I’ll then go to seating depth. If get really low velocities or huge groups I'll go at it with another bullet first or second, with another powder. Someone once said, “good groups MAY repeat but bad groups will ALWAYS repeat.” 😊

Thank you everyone. Looks like I’ll stick to the way I’ve been doing it for 30+ years...pick a bullet and powder (or two or three) and work through charge weights first.

Glad to see I’m not alone in that camp, and for the most part it has worked well.

Moderate charge with a suitable powder, but always, seating depth first. This process has worked well for me.

300 winnie.......


Remember an age old saying that is very true

Kiss the lands

Find pressure

Rock on


Most get lost on the rock on part

Measuring to the lands is an issue - Hornady Comparitor or Davidson Ogive gauges are used to measure ogive lengths vs OAL off the tip

Finding the pressure simple

Rock on....make adjustments

many loads per bullet, powder, and load can be accomplished in 30 rounds max

Work with one powder and bullet at a time, then move on. Be methodical, work up to find pressure. Then back off, work up carefully.

Do not use mixed brands of brass, stick with a single primer, then change once you have tweeked the powder charge, then work on seating depth.

Amazing accuracy is attainable from stock factory guns, chase the lands as leade grows, keep the copper out of your barrel

Load to magazine length.....work up best loads........

its a 300 WM........not a target gun.......

Go kill an Elk

All you can do.......

leave .020 Short of OAL in touching the mag or problems will develop.

NON vld type of bullets help in spades in this regard.....think partitions...they are jump friendly!

Powder charge with experimentation with seating depths.

The lands will erode faster than most people realize, so be aware that you'll have to adjust bullet jump at least every few hundred rounds. More often if involved in precision benchrest shooting applications.

Better results may be experienced in seating at longer bullet jump measurements to start with for overall performance and reliability for hunting.

= clueless and proud of it!

In my experience both monolithic hunting bullets (such as Barnes, Hornady GMX, Nosler E-Tip, etc.) and many of today's high-BC lead-cores (NOT just Bergers) often shoot MUCH better when seated deeper. Have seen groups shrink by up to 75% when seating the same bullet up to .1 inch deeper, sometimes even more, when using the same powder charge.

WOW, have to agree with keith on this one, I don't have even one single rifle that the bullets are seated to loading manual COAL specs !!!!!!!

I agree on some rifles this is absolutely the case, but then there are others..............

My 300WM steadfastly refuses to shoot any bullet that is not touching the lands, my current load is Berger 210gr VLD .010" jammed

I also have a 22-250AI that shoots the 80gr Berger with a .010" jam

Yep, that's been my experience as well. Almost anything can work. In fact I believe my own .300 WM shoots the 210 VLD best when seated very close to the lands (but not jammed).

Which is why I keep an open mind on seating depth!

If it works, it works...

I've got to disagree with the "clueless" comment (on a factual basis - obviously it's a mean thing to say but I'll ignore that for now). There may actually be some significant insight to be gleaned from gunswizard's experience. More and more target shooters are starting to back way off the lands, and plenty of factory loads that are WAY off the lands shoot lights out (180 Remington CL in the 30-06 in my buddy's Mauser for instance).
I just backed off the 140 ABs in my 270 WSM to about .060 off the lands and it is now much more accurate than my "normal" starting point of .025".
It might just be that a big old factory jump is going to work fine most of the time, but what do I know? I've been doing this for 40+ years myself and am recently discovering things about seating depth I never knew.

Cheers to all,
Rex

Rex,

One more thing I would add, which may or may not be relevant to any specific handloader, is that I still encounter those who think any scoped, modern rifle that averages 1.5 inches for a 3-shot group at 100 yards is "very" accurate.

I don't necessarily disagree for big game hunting, depending on the big game involved. In fact have killed big game out to 400+ yards neatly that wouldn't average much better than that. In fact I bought a rifle from a well-known Campfire member a while back, which he described as "very accurate," and it wouldn't do any better than that, even with the loads he suggested shot very well. I asked him about that, and he said that was very accurate to him.

Which is one of the reasons why the very first chapter in Gun Gack III is "Modern Hunting Rifle Accuracy."

Several of the competition Bench Rest shooters say chasing the lands is a practice in futility. In my experience, chasing lands can render your bolt gun a single shot.

All of my Weatherby’s prefer deeper seated bullets.

I'm CLOSE to you on this. My position is Factory OAL is not a bad place to start.

Jerry

I changed this year to first doing COAL after years the other way. So far, so good.

To me, accurate is being able to hit what I need or want to. Beyond that, the pursuit of precision is really a separate quest, worth doing for its own sake and our enjoyment, but not essential to the job at hand. Might be rationalizing a bit, but I tend to think that my ability to hold is more significant in the field than the rifle's ability to cluster bullets together. Never missed even a squirrel because the rifle or load weren't up to the shot. My notions about all this apply to how, where, and what I hunt; others, of course, face different scenarios that are more demanding and might allow shooting from positions or at ranges that take more advantage of a really accurate setup, pdog shooting for example.

I start with powder, fine tune with seating depth.

I start with 0.020 - 0.050 off the lands for all of my hunting rifles. Target rifle start at 0.005 - 0.010.

So if we load a 300 Win to perform like a 308 in order to achieve accuracy, whats the point to the 300 Win?
I think most of us have been led to believe that we obtain best accuracy by playing with charge weights of different powders, and also trying different brand bullets.
But what about optimum performance?
We dont get the BC results without having velocity.
There are actually few powders that will give that in the larger capacity cases.
And the larger the capacity, the fewer there are.
So if we want to use the highst BC bullet, which is always the longer heavy ones, along with the highest velocity, how many choices are there as for accuracy testing?
The first thing to look for is (Max) velocity, and we do that first by loading one round at the lower end of the max charge range, and one more round one grain heavier, and another one grain heavier than the last and so on.
We then shoot those into something safe like a dirt pile at any distance with no target.
When we reach the point we notice even a slight amount of bolt sticky STOP,
We now know the max load in that gun with that powder/ bullet combination.
All this needs to be done over a chronagraph in order to record the velocity.
We might have used five rounds to find the max load in total for that powder.
We now load three rounds with the max load and fire them for group at 400 yds preferably or as far as we can.
Then use different seating depths in order to fine tune for accuracy, BEFORE reducing the powder charge.
And that my friends is the best way to get MAX performance from wildcat and magnum cartridges without spending days and countless rounds looking for it.
First find MAX velocity, then attempt to make it work by changing seating depth before moving on by lowering the charge of powder.

THIS is how I have always done it...

Yah mahn.

I totally agree that there are two separate quests here...I keep telling my fellow loonies that we need to start a “Handloaders Anonymous group”....”Hello, my name is Jay and I have an addiction”😂😂

You're right!

I need to get more guns, more gear, more powder, more bullets, more primers and cases!

😂😂😂

Yesterday, I tested some loads for an old FN custom .270 I picked up recently. Picked a bullet many seem to consider pretty accurate, a Hornady Spire Point (150gr in this case) and a powder I already had that would give me my target velocity of 2700 or so without bending anything ( 55gr of H4831). Seating depth was determined by the Sharpie method. Two 3-shot groups went 9/16" and 7/8", followed after adjusting the elevation a tad on the M8 4X with a 4-shot group just under 1 1/4". I'll check the POI again before going hunting, but I'm done with this one. Loaded up the rest of my prepped cases, which should suffice for a while. Don't see how futzing around trying to squeeze out another fraction of an inch from this 50 or 60-something rifle will accomplish anything of importance.

OTOH, my new range toy, one of the $250 Brownells Howas, will be futzed with a good bit once enough innocent forest creatures have been converted into tasty comestibles. Here, that starts next Satuday.