I'm going to try and keep this as focused a thread as possible. So that there are no confusions:

1) I like 308 WIN. My Opening Day GOTO deer rifle is a 308 WIN
2) I'm not trying to throw shade on any other chambering
3) I'm not trying to elicit everyone's opinion on 308 WIN, just Finn Aagard's
4) I'm especially not trying to start a 308 WIN/30-06 argument. That would easily go 10 pages and get nowhere.

This thread starts with a quote from the recent Finn Aagard/7mm-08 thread



This thread has a convoluted motive. It includes a dead dog. You see, we had to take our beloved Jay for his last ride a few weeks ago. I took that Finn Aagard book with me. That sounds stupid, but we'd been told only one person was allowed in the vet's at a time. I said my goodbyes to Jay in the parking lot and then went back and sat. I tried to read, but I doubt anything really sunk in. Later, KYHillChick came out and said they were making an exception for us. We quickly got as much of the clan together as we could and Jay went out in good style surrounded by family. That ended a 14 year run for Jay and a 70+ year run with that vet. This is the first time the family has been dogless in all that time-- 3 generations of us/ 2 generations of vets.

At any rate, I wasn't feeling too good. I left the Finn Aagard book in the car for a couple of weeks. I finally dragged it out yesterday, along with Jay's collar.

This aforementioned quote from Brad had stuck in my head.

In the meantime, the tribe assembled for Christmas. Angus, Moose, and I were discussing deer rifles, and our deer camp just concluded. They were asking me for my thoughts on the 7mm-08, and they were all positive. I managed to mention Brad's post.

[Yes, Brad. You made it into our Christmas celebration.]

Their question in return was WHY? I didn't have an answer. I also realized that the answer lay back before any of my sons were born, and all my American Rifleman's from that period were lost in the divorce. Yikes! I went back and read through Hunting Rifles and Cartridges, but there were no answers there. The only discussion of 308 WIN was in regards to a 308 WIN carbine Aagard was liked.

Yes, Brad. I do remember that Aagard preferred 308 WIN. I've forgotten exactly why. At the time I read the relevant articles, I was heavily vested in 30-06 and really didn't link about it further. However, we're now approaching a point in our deer camp where the 2nd Gen are starting to break out of the mold that Gen 1 forged for them. They're now looking for their second deer rifle-- the one they want to buy on their own.

So why DID Aagard gravitate to 308 WIN?

Sorry to hear about you pup. Those are simply very hard days when we lose our companions of so many years.

I ran across this recently. Probably gets to what you're after.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...082406/1/finn-aagaard-shots-with-the-308

Those “last rides” are tough. Took my dog for his a year-and-a-half ago, and I won’t do any more of them. He was really ready, I think, but went down especially hard. Sorry about yours.

I came to the conclusion some time ago that for my hunting, the differences between cartridges are minuscule, and bullet performance and shot placement trump everything else. So I am drawn to rifles I like more than what they feed on, with extra points for cartridges I already load for. I bought my Fieldcraft in 6CM instead of .243 because it was in stock, liked the round, and so added it to my list. Bought a Grendel because of the cute little rifle, but when it became more of a project than I wanted, I replaced it with one less cute, but easy to deal with, and that cartridge joined the club too. Always seem to have a .308 lurking around here somewhere, the latest a dandy light Heym 98.

Point being, after my little ramble, Finn likely found that it worked well and was easy; simple as that.

I USED to eschew the 308, calling it the "missionary position" as a boring cartridge. much preferring the 06. Since then, I've come around and "seen the light". It is an efficient, accurate, easy to load killer of a cartridge with a lot more bang for the buck than the 06 OR the 6.5 Gaymoor,

Perhaps because the 308 is available in different/shorter actions.

30 06 is better with heavier bullets because it holds more powder.their are no flies on the 308 up to 168 grs after that the 06 case capacity is needed in my book. When I want 180+ bullets at 2900fps I use a magnum case. Keeps things simple and pressures where they need to be. Some people think you should be able to have 1 gun do everything perfectly that idea is purely minimalist and boring as hell to me. People change cartridges looking for answers they think they didn't have before. They had them they just couldn't see them or acknowledge them it's not a cartridge failure but a human one. Now if someone made a AR -10 in 30-06 I could dump the runt. Mb

One was enuff for me. Ruger 77 UL 20" bll. Accurate and - 'handloaded' - velocity was up there with the 06 150 gr factory loads THEN the 308 lags behind the 06. That UL handled great and I killed WT with it but.....

Jerry

The first gift my wife to be gave me. It is now a 250 AI but a Mauser M12 308 is en route.

Sorry to hear about your dog. Losing them is no fun.

I’ve been re-reading Hunting Rifles & Cartridges lately. I think that this evolution starts with the 375 Holland & Holland, which he used in a 25" Model 70 with factory ammo while hunting for himself and guiding in Kenya. He describes that in “The .375 H&H Mag.”

He began guiding in North America when he moved to Texas in 1977. “A Professional’s Rifle” describes how he liked a 22” Mauser in 30-06 for that because it had the reach, power, and reliability that he needed. His main loads were not downloaded factory ammunition, but full-power handloads: a 150 at 3,000 fps, a 180 at 2,750 or 2,800 fps, and a 220 at 2,550 fps.

“A 308 Carbine” describes using a surplus Mauser in the Texas Hill Country. I don’t think that feral hogs were much of an issue when he wrote that, but the Hill Country was rich in javelina, whitetail deer, turkey, and aoudad. He found the 308 to be perfect for them with a 150-grain bullet at 2,600 fps.

As he put it,


Okie John

I like a 308, it kills game really well.

Why not a 308, I have and use a 30-06 but for deer in similar rifles with similar barrel lengths and similar bullet weights there is no real difference. In bullet weights between 150grs and 180grs the 30-06 is 80 to 100 fps faster. From a ballistic stand point a 308 at the muzzle is equal to a 30-06 at 30 yards. The 30-06 has a 30 yard advantage. In a Remington 700 SPS, both rifles having 24 inch barrels, the 30-06 is 1/2" longer and 2.4 ounces heavier. That is the basic difference between the cartridges, 100fps, 30 yards, 1/2 inch and 2.4 ounces. From a handloading standpoint the 30-06 is more versatile and the 308 is more economical and probably more accurate.

Sorry about your beloved dog.

I can appreciate Finn's pragmatic approach to firearms and hunting. Unfortunately or fortunately? I am a looney. I have played with and hunted many cartridges and rifle combinations. I do not for one second wish, I had not done that.

The right rifle can certainly make any cartridge stand out. The posted article speaks of two such rifles that were chambered in 308. I have owned a couple 308's, but the platforms never grabbed me. Maybe a "scout" rifle should be in my future.......

The 308, like the 30-06 and a few other cartridges are never a wrong choice.

Because you can't get a Sav 99 in 30-06

Thanks for this. I'd not ever gone to the length you did to describe the differences in the two. I'm a 308 guy and never have spent much time around a 30-06.

Thanks all for the kind thoughts about Jay. It was one of those deals where, it was time for everyone involved.

PRM: Thanks for the link. Yeah, that pretty well explains it. Brad posted that article. That was probably what he was meaning in the quote.

Check me if I'm wrong guys:
I don't remember Aagard ever denouncing the 7's (7X57 , 7mm-08, or even 270 WIN) in favor of the 308 WIN. He'd have seemed foolish if he did.
I don't remember Aagard ever denoucing 30-06 in favor of the 308 WIN. He just found that 308 WIN seemed to work for a bunch of stuff and found the right rifle that fit him and his needs.

Bottom line: he never became a 308 WIN snob.

I can see his point I had a Ruger Hawkeye Scout rifles in my hands a few years ago, and I should have taken it home. However, I had other projects in mind at the time. I also don't feel the pressing need for a bobbed-barrel rifle. I can afford an extra couple of inches-- saves the hearing.

On the other hand, my latest infatuation, the TC Compass in 7mm-08 is perfect for my needs at the farm at the moment. I doubt any deer would notice the difference.

Thanks all.

Folks who prefer the 308..


Folks who prefer the 257 Weatherby..

Why the 308? Not sure his reason, but one can speculate. I have killed deer, and elk with the 308, and 30-06. Both, are great, can't go wrong with either. I currently have a 30-06 in savage weather warrior116. Nice gun, shoots1 moa with hand loads. My son has a 308. Rem 700 adl that I got from scenar shooter. Very accurate gun, 1/2 to 3/4 moa I have shot it quite a bit, killed 1 big 6 point bull, and several wolves with it.. It has less recoil than the 30-06. As a broad generalization, I would say that the 308 is more accurate, with a little less recoil, and a little easier to develop accurate hand loads for. I know there will always be exceptions. I am planning to switch to a Tikka 308 this summer for these reasons. As to on game performance,90% of hunters will never tell the difference on their deer or elk. As mentioned above the 30-06 will be better with bullets over180 grains. If I had big bears as a consideration, I would stay with the 30-06 and go with the 200 grain bullet . But most hunters don't have to deal with that as a consideration.

The 308 is a great round, I killed my first couple deer with one, have owned 2. But it's never going to unseat the No. 1 Jack of All Trades - the 30/06.

I started using a .308 due more to the platform rather than the cartridge. I seriously wanted a light 20" barreled bolt rifle in 7-08, but had plenty of bullets and even a set of dies in .308, so .308 it was.

I have both. When I was young the 257 WM was all the rage, but at my age the 308 is boring but always gets the job done

Because new .300 Savages are hard to find 😀.

I am more or less am a recent .308 convert. Dont get me wrong, I love my 7mm-08s and will continue to use them. The 7mms are sweet and I feel comfortable using them on any deer hunt and some elk.

Anyway, I started using a Daniel Defense AR-10 .308 and have enjoyed it, especially suppressed. It's a big gun but simply fun to use in fixed deer stands.

Why the .308? It works well for most hunting situations in CONUS. For me, the performance for 90% of hunting, mainly deer is awesome BUT ammo/components were a driving factor of why I am getting a bolt gun built for the round. I want a setup that I "should" be able to get ammo for in most situations so I can hunt, if I cant for other cartridges.

Ive not had any issue with elk and deer using my 308 scout rifle. Recently picked up a 30-06 Hawkeye to use as a dedicated 200gr Nosler Partition launcher because i can and wanted one. Ive only used a 30-06 maybe twice and it was a few decades ago when i was in my early 20's so im going to get reaquainted. In that time that passed ive had no issues taking game with the ho hum 308win and i couldnt be happier. I wanted to throw 200gr bullets around for the least imvestment and so the 30-06 coupled with the campfire thread aboit 200gr bullets helped make up my mind and sealed the deal.

I only have one 308 presently but it has been a good rifle and the round has shown to be very capable. Easy to load for, accurate and not a bad kicker in a light rifle. There are many cartridges in the same category, I don't really put the 30-06 outside the realm of what I would use a 7-08, 308, 270 for. Everything I have shot with a 308 has quickly succumbed and I even took some shots at around 400 yards with it. As far a slinging the heavier bullets the 308 pushes them faster than many old time much heralded cartridges like the 300 Savage and 30-40 Krag, both of which have accounted for many Moose and Elk. Where I like my lighter 308 over the 30-06 is in hunting rough hilly or thick forested areas for game up to Elk. My 24 inch barreled 30-06 does get more speed than my 20 inch barreled 308 so in more open country the old 06 gets the workout. In fact I often carried both rifles on the same hunts. For backup or for different terrain.

I wonder if Finn Aagard simply figured out that if you put the same bullet style, say a Nosler Partition, with similar sectional density, from anything from a 6.5x55 to a 30-06, in the same place, at the same range, on the same game animal, you get the same result? Make the cartridge even more similar, as 308 vs 30-06 and there is mostly not enough difference to tell about.

I never cared much about the.308. I’ve been loading it for my brother since the mid 70’s, but never had one of my own until 10 or 12 years ago. A guy waved a nice 1B at me for a good price so I bought it, even though it was a.308. It was easy to make shoot well. It has killed deer for me with boring efficiency.

Some time back, I got one of Remington’s “Extreme Conditions Rifles “ in their “Compact Tactical Rifle “ version. It’s a 9 twist .223 and very accurate with the same 65 grain SGK load I use in my AR’s. More than a couple of times I’ve wished I’d also gotten one in .308 which was the other caliber they were offered in.

I really think that the 7mm-08 is a slightly better mouse trap than the 308, but that's just me.

Have come full circle on the 308 Winchester as a primary hunting rifle/cartridge. Never strayed though, when it came to a target rifle.

I got one of those in 308 back when they had the real 40X trigger. It's a sweetheart.

Now that I've taken deer with both, I would be in tentative agreement, if only that the 7mm-08 gets the job done with less recoil.

That's why the Finn Aagard quote intrigued me. I wasn't sure if he found any deficiencies.

The 308 has logistical advantages.

Sorry about your dog. That is tough. My 308 is a remington 7600 carbine with 18.5 inch barrel. I like it.

Better long range ballistics as well.

List those if you would?

Until the recent overall shortage one advantage was widespread availability of broad variety of cartridges to cover just about any purpose to which the 308 is suited. The general shooting public isn't as dense with handloaders as is the population of this site.

Just about any short action rifle is regularly chambered in 308.

The widest variety of off the shelf reloading dies include the 308 in the lowest price tier for the given type of die.

The best brass becomes available in 308 before many other cartridges.

Shaman, I'm honored I got included in your Christmas celebrations

Sometime in the 80's/90's Finn got intrigued by Jeff Cooper's Scout Rifle concept. The 308, due to its NATO/Military status, was Cooper's primary choice as a chambering for the Scout Rifle. So, Finn started using the round more and more, and I suspect being a practical Norwegian (think cheap - I'm 75% Norwegian), he probably latched onto it for its preeminent practicality. Hardly anything is cheaper than 30 cal bullets and 308 brass. He also appreciated it did everything the 30-06 did, but kicked less. He used the 308 in the last few years of his life competing in the Keneyathlon (a practical, field shooting competition). I think Finn just liked "things that work." And the 308 does.

I agree with BWalker, I think the 7-08 is the slightly better mousetrap - but not in terms of wide availability. In that case, the 308 wins all the marbles. If I lived in an isolated rural setting anywhere in the world, and lived off the land (by the rifle) I'd take the 308 over anything.

My Armalite AR-10 likes handrolled .308s.

For Shaman... Finn's last article. On the 308 of course!

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...s-last-article-shots-with-the-308#UNREAD

It's me too.

I like the .308, and have a nice one in a LVSF in a mcm hunters edge, but I'd take a 7mm-08 over it if I had to choose.

This pretty well mirrors my own opinion.

I've dabbled in the 308 on/off since I was a teenager. I was more enamored with the 280 Rem and various other 7mms and 30 cals. About age 40, I was starting to realize the recoil from the big 7mms and 30 wasn't fun. I shot them well enough but really enjoyed shooting smaller cartridges.

Then I joined the Campfire and saw some dude in MT shooting elk with the 308 (that would be Brad). Then it was a 7mm-08. I then became enamored with elk hunting and backcountry hunting. I dragged my share of 9lb magnum rifles back into the backcountry. And hated it. About 10-12 years ago, I started down the road of smaller cartridge's, light rifles, and good bullets. I somehow managed to kill several elk with the 308 and 270 in rifles that weighed 7 lbs or less. 10-12 years later, I've killed 20-25 deer and a couple elk with my Kimber 308. Killed 4 deer this year - 1 shot each. My Kimber Montana 308 has become my favorite rifle and feels like an extension of my body.

Long-winded way of saying I think evolution toward smaller, "efficient" cartridges, is natural. Efficient meaning efficient at killing game at reasonable distances. I also think, using smaller "efficient" cartridges has benefited greatly from advances in bullets over the past 20 years. Of course we've had the Nosler Partition since 1948, but they haven't always shot well in all rifles, mine included. To that end, I just finished loading both 130 and 150 TTSX for my 308. It has shot the 150 really well in previous tests. My goal is to develop a load that gives me 2 holes in deer to elk. I'd bet these bullets fired from my 6.5 lb 308 will do just that.

Aye!

My only issue with the .308 has been loading for it, and it could be something I'm doing wrong. I never seem to be able to reach expected velocities. Maybe it's a throating thing, but I was always under speed with multiple rifles. I've never had that problem with a 7mm-08.

We had to take our beloved 8 yo Lab, Tiger Lily Scout, for her last ride August 11th. She was so sick with renal failure and went very peacefully out in the sunshine in the grass. My 14 yo Lab is still retrieving geese, albeit slowly. At least I haven’t lost both dogs in 2020.
My first introduction to the .308 was by the M-14 at Fort Polk, LA in 1969 and subsequently by the M-60 Pig 🐖 . I thought that round would kill any living thing on the planet and hunted WA and MT with it until the powers that be convinced my foolish notions that I needed something bigger in griz country. Onward and upward to more powerful cartridges! In recounting all my deer and elk kills, not a one could not have been handled by a properly loaded .308 Win. Yet, I continue to hunt with the likes of Weatherby magnums and the .35 Whelen - - - because I can.

Happy New Year!

I'd agree with this in that the time Finn spent with the scout rifle and talking with Jeff Cooper he came to the conclusion the 308 fits all of his needs for this continent. Lets not forget age (and the advancement there of) has a way of opening our eyes to the realization of what we really need in practical terms, and tempering our emotional wants. Wanted to add that this comment was not intended to say IMO Finn was an impractical man, quite the contrary considering his history on the Dark Continent, but just as a general observation of modern human nature in general and myself in particular.

I'd also add that sometimes the carrier is more important than the projectile. Matching the cartridge to the use of the rifle, not the other way around, seems not to be the case for many with todays' never ending list of cartridges.

My first 308 was a savage 99, one of the newer ones.

So for me it’s the platform. Now I have a GSR and an M1a.

I'm reminded of the Parable of the Mustard Seeds. You just never know when one of those little boogers is going to take root.

Part of my experiment with the 7mm-08 was to test whether I could fashion reasonable rounds from 308 empties. I haven't tried military brass yet, but I had plenty of Federal brass that I got from my association with my sons' friend. He's a lousy shot and goes through Federal premium ammo like water. I managed minute-of-deer accuracy on the first try. I'll call that a win.

It's funny. When I started reading Aagard back in the early 80's. I was a blind, ignorant kid. All I really knew about rifles was that 30-06 was THE ULTIMATE. 308 WIN was a wannabe, and 270 WIN was the bastard wannabe. It took coming here for me to hear 270 was also limp-wristed. I read Aagard with a healthy dose of confirmation bias. A lot of that wrong-headedness followed me here to the 'Campfire. Over 18 years, it's gradually worked itself out.

Fathers: Don't drop your young sons off at the barbershop and run errands. You don't know what horrible attitudes they'll pick up.

I use a Rem 700 .308 in a B & C Mountain TI stock as my primary hunting rifle. For me, 150gn Accubonds an Varget produce the desired result. If for any reason I need extra velocity I'll use either CFE223 or Alliant PowerPro-2000MR.

I'm sorry to hear about your dog. We recently made the last ride with our Chocolate Lab Sasha, cancer finally took her; that was a hard day.

Thinking back on my 50 years with the 308 Winchester and the 7.62x51 NATO - It has always gotten the job done, no muss no fuss; steady dependable performance in the game fields, on the target range and on the battlefield.

My first exposure to the 308 was in 1970 when when my dad brought a Sako L579 Deluxe home from the base Rod And Gun Club, it was the prettiest rifle I'd ever seen. He had mounted up a 6X Redfield Widefield on it and went on to hunt with it for years and nothing required a second shot.
My dad let me hunt with that rifle a bit while I was in high school and I killed several deer with my own handloaded 150 Gr. Hornady Spire Points.

Joining the USMC in 1977 I got to experience the 7.62mm first hand, I humped the "PIG" for a while and carried it in harm's way, got to work on and use the M40 and M40A1 rifles. My best memories are from when I shot on the 2nd FSSG Rifle Team and we used NM tuned M-14 rifles in inter-service and EIC matches. Loved the trips to shoot against other Marine Teams, Ft Benning to shoot against the AMU, Ft Bragg to shoot against 82nd ABN, SF Teams, Quantico to shoot against the Marine Corps, the FBI and Secret Service shooters and travelling to Camp Perry several times through the eighties.

I hunted with a Sako AII Hunter in 308 from the mid eighties till now off and on. Being a rifle looney I was always looking from something else, something new and different as the 308 was just boring.
Lately I have been on a 6.5 mm kick and my 6.5x55 and 6.5 Creedmoor have been used to put meat in the freezer for the last couple of years (except one with the 7-08 taken on 2ndwind's place a couple of years ago).

I have been fortunate enough to have hunted in many places around this world during my life and outside of 2 Cape Buffalo, a Brown Bear and a 387 yard poke at a Bull Elk there is nothing that I could not have comfortably taken with a 308 Winchester.

Yes, I still have my dad's old rifle (it needs a new recoil pad) and my Sako AII Hunter in 308. As I whittle down my collection of hunting rifles there will always be room in my safe for an accurate rifle chambered in 308 Winchester.

YMMV

StarchedCover

Dingo, that's a great looking rifle!

If I had a 30-06 or a .308 I would not change. For deer hunting it makes little difference. If I had neither I would buy a 30-06. It's "only" 90 or 100 fps faster? Well, I'll take the 100 fps. The 1/4" shorter action doesn't mean a danged thing to me. An exception would be if I really liked the Savage 99. I used to have a Winchester 88 in .308 but didn't like the rifle.

Why not?

If this is a 30 fight, its between the 06 and the 308, right?
The 308 does almost everything the 06 does. In a smaller and
lighter gun.

If the 308 isn't going to give you enough performance, how can you
truly justify the 06? Go straight to a magnum or a bigger bullet.

I have both.
And see them as pretty much the same.
Either is never a bad choice.

One thing that's still amazing to me is how many hunters consider the .308 a "deer" cartridge and the .30-06 an all-around big game cartridge, more suitable for elk-sized game.

Have not just killed but seen a lot of big game taken with both over the decades, and the .308 kills include not just elk but African "plains game" of the same size, including animals often considered even harder to kill than elk, such as zebra, blue wildebeest and gemsbok. All of those animals died just as quickly as they did when shot with a .30-06.

You mean to say that a 5-6% drop in MV doesn’t effectively neuter a big game load at normal hunting ranges? That’s entirely too logical...

My position has long been that the .308 matches, exceeds actually, the ballistics the .30/06 began with and “made its bones” with, just as the designers intended. Better bullets just make both well, better.

No ‘06 here now, and likely for the (my) duration, unless something irresistible falls from the sky like my current .308 did.

Amazing, ain't it? Aspecially when many handloaders feel another 100 (or even 50) fps at the muzzle makes their rifles far more effective--and that additional velocity shrinks the farther the bullet gets from the muzzle.

Why the .308? Because the 7mm-08 is one of the best all-purpose rounds ever created.

I had forgotten about that.


Okie John

Pretty sure Cooper said the 7mm-08 was an acceptable alternative if the .308 wasn't allowed due to being a military round.

When NY opened my area up to use rifles I bought a Savage 99 in 308. I just added another buck to its tally this year. No longer my favorite but still a trusted partner. I do love the 99's, bought my son his first deer rifle a 99 in 300 savage built in 1935. He is the second owner and killed his first deer with it in pa when he was 14, that was 21 years ago and he still has it. 300 savage the daddy of the 308. I know your pain took me 2 years before I got another black lab. She is laying on my feet as I write this. Good hunting.

I like to shoot, remember when you could get those 200 round battle packs of Australian or South African ammo dirt cheap? I bought a short ton of it and used it in M1a, FAL and hunting rifles. My go to and travelling hunting rifle is a 308 and it still works for most everything. There are better long range choices but for a GP rifle it is hard to beat. I guess I am kind of a general purpose shooter.


mike r

In my late middle age I find much less fun in figuring out accuracy issues. I bought a Tikka T3X Lite in 6.5 CM and liked the mild manners and dependable accuracy of rifle / ammo combo so much I followed it up with a T3X SuperLite Stainless in .308 and it will probably be the last rifle I sell even with as much as I like my 6.5. The .308 is an accurate, dependable cartridge for which you can buy relatively cheap, accurate ammo of just about any type. You can drive light, high tech bullets relatively fast or old school bullets at sedate speeds and they all work. I’m a fan.

I’ve had lots of both...still have 3-308s.

They shoot the same ballet at the same velocity. Hard to imagine but they work about the same on game.


The advantages to a 308 are that it is a far more accurate cartridge and is easier to load for in my experience. I also believe it’s more popular abroad if that matters.

I’ve never understood people saying it doesn’t handle bullets above 165gr well either. 308s are just fine with 180 and 200gr projectiles. As in every bullet weight it’s about 75-100 FPS slower...no difference with heavier or lighter bullets. Frankly I see more variance barrel to barrel than I have between the two cases.

I prefer a 308 because my grandfather hunted with one...i don’t think for a second either is any different in the field. Having used both I know better.

I should note that quality 308 brass is much cheaper thanks to our friends at NATO

I was wanting a little lighter and handier rifle and always liked the Win M70 Fwt. When they went on sale at a LGS, I stopped by and they had one in .308. I already had a M77 in .280 and wanted this rifle to be in a caliber that I could readily find across the country. The short action .308 fit that bill. I reach for that rifle more than any other of my deer rifles (including this year). It shoots well and I really like the rifle. There's no downside to it in the NE woods and I know in 10 years time, if there is any ammo still on the shelves, the .308 will be one of them. Can't say that for some of the more modern flavor of the month calibers. My Dad gave me his 760 in 30-06 years ago, so I had one of those. I shot a 6 pt with it last year after my Dad passed. Nothing wrong with that either.

Amen Cooper. Nothing finer than a hunt with a piece handed down

I shot my first big game animal with a 308 Winchester forty years ago when I was 12. It was a winter caribou from the Nelchina herd on the Tok Cutoff. I was using those old Winchester 165grain silvertip bullets. I shot it at about 40 yards and it went down right there. I have had many over the years but have not hunted one extensively since then. I do have several including tackleberry and 99 deluxe versions. The caliber works very well in a kimber boilerplate rifle and it really provides all that one would need. My father started hunting with a 308 Winchester in a Mossberg 810 that didn't even have a scope and shot a mule deer with it before he came to Alaska. He shifted over to a 300 Win once he got here in 1977.

My cousin by marriage has filled a huge shop and his house with a 308. It is a Browning A-bolt with a very old leupold 3X9 variable scope. It might be his only rifle. He has two supercubs and a 36ft long ocean cruiser with big Volvo Twins so he does have toys. He has shot several 9+ Brown Bears on Hitchenbrook Island and shot an extremely large 9ft Grizzly (still considered a BB because less than 100 miles to Coast) near Tonsina Lake. He has never entered a single one of his dall sheep but he has at least 10 that would book. The last big one was 177 at 44 inches by 14.75 inch bases about 10 years ago. He works for Uncle Al on the SERV boats and has plenty of time to hunt and has stuff to locate big critters. He also has at least 10 big Sitka Blacktails out of the 30 or 40 that he has taken that would probably go book. However, he isn't interested in putting his name in any book. It just goes to show you that a 308 can be one and done rifle.

Thanks for sharing that history.

I think a lot has to do with the rifles chambered in it. I've always like short rifles like the Model Seven for woods deer hunting so a short action cartridge is where it's at for me. It was a 308 until my shoulder replacements but is now a 243.

I just came along for the dog thing. I had to put down a special buddy myself. And I like the 308 and 7MM08 interchangeably. But the logistics are better for 308. YMMV as I have forgotten the reason Finn stated for his preference. All that said Finn was almost a generation older than me. Be Well, RZ.

Make sure he turns in his "rifle looney card" ASAP

My 1953 M70 FWT .308 was my first centerfire rifle and it has been tailored to suit me and has never let me down.

I have some big bore special use rifles, but my .308 is my most used and trusted rifle.

Great post...

The 308 is for those who cannot stand the tremendous recoil of a full size cartridge like the 30-06.

Holy [bleep]...great post!


Just more proof positive that if it can’t be done with a 308 it can’t be done with a rifle

Bugger,

Would love to hear about the animals you've seen shot with the .308 that died slower than when shot with a .30-06. Did the .308 bullets bounce off?

Between me and Eileen we've taken 16 species of big game around the world with the .308, ranging up to around 800 pounds in weight, including some considered pretty hard to kill, whether big elk or similar-sized African plains game. Oh, and have also been standing/sitting beside other companions when they did similar things with the .308 as well.

This list could be augmented and extended by including a few other sub-.30-06 cartridges as well, including the .270 Winchester, 7mm-08/7x57, and others.

Shaman, sorry about your pup. I've lost a couple over the years and it's never easy. Probably won't have another for this very reason. My wife had to make the last trip to our vet as I just couldn't do it.

I guess I have never thought that the .308 was any better or worse for hunting than 7mm-08's, 30-06 or for that matter other caliber close in size. I have a couple of 7-08's and they are among my favorite rifles for hunting. Several weeks ago I responded to a post where I was rightfully questioned by Mule Deer about a comment I made comparing 7mm-08 to the .308. JB just knows his stuff and I've got to be more careful in the future.

Please, I don't mean to this to become a pity party but, just before this Christmas, I lost my brother to Covid and, his (and my) friend 3 days later to another illness. They were both too old to hunt any longer but, the three of us made numerous trips to our local range to shoot. Their caliber of choice was the .308 Win. I'd usually bring whatever rifle/caliber I planned to hunt with the next season. I learned to reload from both these gentlemen and guess they were much more knowledgeable than I about the virtues of this caliber. My brother owned several guns, but loved his three 308's.

The first center fire rifle I ever fired was a 308 belt fed machine gun in 1965 when I was 14 years old, under the power lines in Orting WA.
The guy who had it was a government inspector that brought it home from work. Google search obituary shows he died in 2011.

I think they should call it a .308 Almost. It's almost as good as a 30-06. For most hunting situations I would expect little or no difference, but when there is one, it favors the 30-06.

Any accuracy difference is irrelevant for big game hunting. I used to shoot 600-yard NRA matches with both.

.308 rifles can be a couple of ounces lighter. So what? Most of us are 20 pounds overweight, or more.

If I had either one, I would not change it for the other.

As for those who think a 30-06 recoils too much, either you don't know how to shoot, your rifle doesn't fit, or you're holding it wrong. I doubt if anyone can tell the difference between a .308 and a 30-06 under hunting conditions anyway.

Where a .308 shines is if you really like Savage 99s or Winchester 88s. Also, surplus military brass and ammo may be earser to find but I've got a lifetime of 30-06 stuff from target shooting long ago.

At almost 60 in a few months, I'm likely not 1 lb overweight, let alone 20.

The majority of the hunting I do is mountain backpack hunting, where (as good a shape as I'm in - and I'm in damn good shape) I find ounces matter. A 6.5lb (all-up) 308 rifle is not only easier to carry (ounces make pounds), it's more enjoyable to shoot than a similarly weighted 30-06. I KNOW this because I've had rifles chambered in that weight in both cartridges. The 308 kicks noticeably less in a 6.5b rifle.

I've also found on multiple bull elk, mule deer, whitetail, antelope, etc., with each the 30-06 and 308 there's not one whit of difference between them in the real world of killing, vs. the world of sitting on one's fat ass whilst on the internet opining about something said person obviously has no experience with.

So, while everyone can have an opinion, not all opinions are remotely equal. Just a thought...

Buddy asked why i want a 308 when I have a 3006.

My 06 is long and heavy. Knew that. Like it fine.

Kinda want a shorter and lighter rifle and do prefer short actions......so why not get a 308?

Its not a one or the other type of deal.....its a have both kinda deal

Well if you ain't man enough to handle the extra weight and recoil of a .30-06 or good enough to get the job done with a .30-30, the .308 is an option.

Sorry about your pup. We were lucky to have a Vet who would come to the house the last 2 times it became necessary.
Still two of the worst days of my life.

I'll offer a .308 anecdote from my former neighbor here in FL. He grew up on a ranch in Rhodesia and later became a PH.
The boarding school in S.A. would send them home for a month 3 times per year instead of our customary 3 months off
once a year. Upon arrival at the ranch he would take his Mauser .308 out and shoot an Impala. Said Impala was then traded for
a brick (1000 rnds) of 7.62 ball at the nearby government run range/shooting club. He would then while away his time burning up
that ammo on targets of opportunity, typically going through 3 1/2 bricks in his 4 weeks of vacation. Imagine how much confidence and
skill accrues from all that practice! Probably why he was much enamored of the old .308 all these years later.

Gee, so many manly men on this site who can tolerate the fearsome recoil of the .30-06, gaining such a huge advantage over the .308.

Have mentioned this before here and there, but I have taken more big game animals with the .30-06 than any other single cartridge, including 24 different species. Since 1997 have taken more big game with a single .30-06 rifle, my New Ultra Light Arms Model 24. It's so light than more than one of my very experienced hunting friends has commented on how much more it recoils than the .30-06s they've fired.

But between the .338 Winchester Magnum, 9.3x62 and .375 H&H I've also taken more big game than my total with the .30-06, also including 24 different species from Alaska to Africa. If you throw in the various .300 magnums I've used (WSM, H&H, Winchester and Weatherby) the total far exceeds that of the .30-06. Is this enough for me to join the manly recoil club?

Pardon me for asking out of context here about the 308 Win.



John, if you narrowed it down to one big game load in your '06 what would it be?

bullet, powder, case, primer,

I just bought the 2nd 308 of my lifetime, a Mauser M-12 Impact. First was a Savage 99.

To the 308 aficionados here at the campfire.

What is your best 308 Win load for

Big game -

Target - 300 yards, 600 yards, and 1000 yards

Tactical -

A long time friend of mine, who has a quite impressive collection of pre64 M70's and is a 458WM loony (he owns five of them) likes to say when we kid him about recoil "No brain, no pain".......

He even shot a pronghorn with a 458, I watched him do it with my own eyes..........

I've got a pre 64 Featherweight and it just happens to be a 308

I like both cartridges, just loaded 240 rounds of 308. Have to keep the inventory up. As for the recoil thing I don't see a lot of difference between my pretty light 308 and my 1 1/2 pound heavier 30-06. I would not send half a day blasting away hunting ammo with either. Load development has been fast and easy with both rounds.

I see no difference between the 30-06 the 308 or the 270 as far as recoil or a big difference or trajectory out to 250 yards I do know the 30-06 has the authority as far as knock down power up close over the other 2

You just made my point... apparently the manly men on this thread can’t quite grasp this fact. And, of course, in the real world the difference on game is indistinguishable... except to manly men.

I've owned 270's and 30-06's in identical M700's (even made the same year) and in tang safety M77's. The 06 definitely has more recoil........

I guess recoil is considered differently by people. My 30-06 is stocked to fit me, has a good recoil pad and yes it "kicks" harder than my similar 270 but neither bother me a lot. And when shooting at game animals I really never notice it. I would rather shoot a long string at the bench with the 270 than the light 308 or the 30-06 because felt recoil is pretty mild noting the rifle weighs around 9 pounds. The 30-06 closer to 8 1/4 pounds. The 308 is kind of buckish with hunting loads off the bench because it is light and short. However I can easily shoot them enough to be capable with any of the three and other rifles that actually put out some "kick". I never really considered recoil (within reason) to be an issue with a hunting rifle. I had for a time a light 338 that was brutal at the bench but it still handily killed two elk for me before I sold it and built a 35 Whelen.

The great post by kabuko68 puts a lot into perspective and context. But loonyism is fun too......................

I took a 308 in a Remington 600 for my first Elk hunt in the Nez Pearce pass near the Selway River in Idaho close to 50 years ago and I was in great shape then after getting out of the Marines. I'm glad I didn't take anything heavier. Everyone else had 300 WM's or 7mm RM's.

I've owned many 308's, mostly in 600's or 660's. But I don't mind stirring the pot now and then .

Pretty much any cartridge in any gun, held in competent hands will serve its purpose. People that hunt timber country might see little benefit in “long range” guns/cartridges and vice versa. I think the .308 it a good round but I have no use for it unless it’s belt fed.

I've taken most of my big game with 12 gauge slugs, but given the choice a 308 or 30/06 would probably work as well, if not better, overall.

(I like the 308; super accurate, economical and a fun round to shoot).

A while back I probably would have picked the 200-grain Partition with enough H4831 to get around 2700 fps. Liked (and still like) that load a lot, having used it ever since the last year or two of the "sem-spitzer," lathe-turned version of the bullet. Have taken game from pronghorns to elk with it at various ranges, and it always works. Generally have used 59-60 grains, with whatever brass and CCI 200s. The charge with the original mil-surp H4831 mostly varied with the thickness of the brass--thicker brass resulted in the same velocity with a little less powder. But with H4831SC it works even better, and getting enough powder in the case isn't a problem.

But have also killed a lot of big game with various other .30-06 handloads, partly due to having to experiment with new stuff. My most recent I worked up last summer, the 175 Barnes LRX with IMR4451, one of my favorite newer powders. Hodgdon's max listed charge got a little over 2800 fps, and the very first 3-shot group from the NULA was right around 1/2" at 100 yards. It kept shooting like that, and I used it to take a mule deer doe at 327 yards. The shot was angling away, and the LRX landed where it was pointed, dropping the deer quickly with very little meat damage. Will probably be using that combo quite a bit for local hunting in the future, as our valley has more grizzlies every year.

But have used a pile of .30-06 loads over the years. Sometime I might have to list them all in an article, maybe for RIFLE LOONY NEWS.

If I could only own one rifle it would be a 308 Win

308 with 155 Scenar’s @ 2900 fps is my current hunting tool of choice. It really gets the job done, no qualms.

Leafing through my copy of the May 1997 issue of Precision Shooting, I
encountered an ad for Krieger Barrels, Inc. that showed an actual-size
copy of a 20-shot group shot at 800 yards by "Bert Bobbit [sic] with
his Krieger Barrelled PALMA rifle." Now this group has a .942" mean
radius, with an extreme spread of 3.325. If it were a 5-shot group,
you'd say, "Somebody else has shot that well at 1,000 yards." But a
20-shot group? God!!


Bartbob Inline image 2
5/13/97

I used a .308 Win. with Sierra's 155-gr. Palma bullet with 45.3gr. of
IMR4895 and RWS Primers in full-length sized WCC60 match cases. Had a 20X
scope on the English Paramount action and shot prone with a bag under my
front hand to steady the rifle. It was about 6AM in dead-calm wind
conditions.
BB

https://yarchive.net/gun/ammo/308_loads.html

I have always disliked the 30-06 and after owning a few 308's I dislike the 06 even more........ In general 30 cals aren't my favorite but the 308 is good to go.

Where I hunt has more to do with my rifle and cartridge choice than the game itself. A lot of the elk and deer hunting that I’ve done here in western WA is in fairly dense timber with lots of contour lines really close together on the map. You might see something out in the open in a clearcut on an opposing ridge line, but I have more success in the timber where most other hunters won’t go. Playing the clearcut game can result in disputes on who shot what. I recall a 4x4 bull elk being hit by as many as three different hunters immediately after emerging into a clearcut from the trees. It was like the scene in Platoon where Sgt. Elias is running from the NVA and taking hit after hit. Not my cup of tea.

Instead, I like to move slowly and quietly through the timber where there is sign of game. The suitability of my rifle is more about how I long I can carry it and how quickly I can shoot. A short, light rifle in the hands is quicker to bear than a heavier and longer rifle slung on the shoulder due to its heft.

Rifles like the Remington Model Seven, chambered in something like 308, with a fixed 4x or a low powered variable like the 1.75-6x, are perfect for this kind of hunting. 165gr Accubonds at 2600 fps sounds pretty pedestrian, but its plenty effective!

On the recoil difference between the 308 & 30-06.
About 20 years ago I assembled a scout rifle with a 600 Rem and a Clifton stock. The 600 had a very thin 18.5# barrel. It weighed under 6.5#. I shot it a lot with 150’s. I was astounded by the lack of recoil. I thought it kicked about like my 7.5# 270.

My hunting buddy hunted Naches WA where he got cows but never a bull elk. He told me a 7mmRM was too small for elk, you need a 300WM. So he retired to MT to try to get a bull elk. He had his chance but wounded it. It went over a hill where the bull was tagged by a teenager with a 22-250.

On the weight issue. I am with BRAD. A rifle carried in the hands gets heavy quickly. Same thing happens when you scramble around rough country. You notice every ounce.

Even though I've owned many 308's. I definitely prefer the '06! The only reason for the 308, in my mind is that it is easier to find light rifles in 308. The only reason for a lighter rifle for me is if I'm in the steep mountains. But since I have a 350 RM in a Remington 600 I've eliminated that advantage of the lighter rifle/308 since the 350 is definitely a many steps above the 308 in every hunting aspect.
But if I were to shoot competitive target shooting where 1/8" group was needed, I'd be looking at the 308 as an option.

Everyone knows (or should know) weight makes a difference PERIOD. in a lifetime of flying (and hunting) weight management is a critical component. Anyone that claims they can see an actual difference in "killing power" between the 06 and the 08 is making a purely emotional statement devoid of logic.

I do see where an 06 would make more sense when using bullets in excess of 200 grains but with today's bullets, i'd like to see a 200 or even 220 grain cup and core, outperform say a 165-180 premium. That leaves one point of discussion, that of recoil. While recoil CAN be measured as a function of foot pounds and mitigated by stock design etc, the issue of PERCEIVED recoil is about as subjective as it gets. And TO ME, a 308's recoil even in a light rifle is not even a consideration when making a decision to select a rifle. On an "Express" rifle, that is another matter. I reached my limit with an 8 lb SAKO action Browning Safari 458 Winchester years ago and by the same token, I can shoot a 340 Weatherby off the bench all day long. Do I prefer LESS recoil? of course I do and that is why I stated in my OP that I had come full circle and give the 308 the credit it deserves and now gets the nod over an 06 for most applications.

I'll let you shoot my loads in my Kimber Montana 308 and same rifle in 30-06. I guarantee there is a big difference in recoil. Enough that I sold the 30-06 and kept the 308.

Bill, I strayed from my first love (the 308 MT) and flirted with a couple of 30-06 MT’s. Indeed, in a platform as light as the Kimber MT, the 308 is infinitely preferable to the 30-06 and I only relearned the lesson I’d learned decades before... cartridges are more alike than different.

30-06:


308:

Brad, it looks like the one you shot with the .308 landed in a much better place!

Lol, another “better 308” landing:

Man, I'll bet that pink Weatherby guy's butt hurts right about now.

And, what's up with that blue 6.5 Creedmoor guy sneakin' up on him like that!

loss of a dog is always tough. I love loved all Finn's books and articles and I am a .308 guy.

Brad - I never get tired of seeing big elk! I've learned alot from you over the years but had to learn the lightweight 30-06 lesson my self. Same with lightweight 7mm magnums. Too much gun in a lightweight package - at least for me, but I'm a wimp. Not so coincidentally, of the the elk I've shot with the 308 and 270 all died just as quickly as the ones I've shot with 300 WSM, 300 SAUM. For a while, I thought the 300 WSM was magic, at least until I started shooting them with the 270 and 308.

I have handled, but did not fire, a NULA chambered in 300 Weatherby. I bet it was a bit sporty.

Nice!
What's your bullet of choice for the .308 these days?

That loosens my fillings just thinking about it.

The first NULA (actually ULA) I fooled with was one of Melvin's "loaner" rifles, one of several he sent to gun writers for testing, in .300 Winchester Magnum. It had a 24" No. 2 Douglas barrel, and was a bit sporty. But I was young and pretty recoil-tolerant, so worked up some loads, eventually ending up with three that shot well under an inch, using the 165 Hornady Spire Point at around 3140 fps, the 180 Speer Grand Slam at around 3025, and the 200 Nosler Partition at 2950. All shot very well, and in fact I shot three, 3-shot groups (one with each bullet) into one 9-shot group of just about an inch (which is what introduced me to the tendency of Melvin rifles to shoot loads with different bullet weights into the same basic place. Took it elk hunting that fall, but the only elk I saw were not legal in that area--though I did take a mule deer doe with it while hiking back to the truck one night

According to my notes I put 135 rounds through that rifle working up loads. Kinda wanted to buy it, but Melvin wouldn't sell the test rifles. Nowadays I wouldn't even want to shoot it much--if at all!

Exactly why I bought one. It was the platform I wanted more than the round. But now it’s both.

My first Savage 99 was a .308 my father bought for me, after I took my first deer with his Marlin .30-30--which was 52 years ago. That proved I was a far-gone hunter and rifle loony, so he took me to a local (Bozeman, Montata) store which had a great selection of used rifles, and told me to pick one out, up to $50 in price. The 99 was $55, but he said that was OK. It turned out to be very accurate, and I hunted with it for several years, but when I got even loonier sold it to buy something something else. He'd passed away, so never knew, but still regret my young decision. Luckily I have several of his other guns....

John, I can relate. For me it was an H&R single shot 410 at age 10. I was so proud. It went “down the road” for something bigger and better.

The 308 is one of the best.

My boss doesn’t hunt but his oldest boy (28 years old) wants to start. The boy knows nothing about guns or optics. My boss asked me if I would talk to the young man about his options and help him select a firearm. I’m going to suggest a Tikka in .308 with a Leupold of some sort in 3-9.


P

In my opinion the .308 Winchester is the greatest rifle cartridge in the universe.

I'm really fond of the .308 Win.

The only .308 I’ve owned was a Montana that I ended up selling to some lucky recipient here on the ‘fire. I really wish I’d kept it as it shot several types of ammo to the same POI and held sub-MOA groups even though I hadn’t learned the tricks to shooting good groups from light rifles yet at the time.

I’ve taken a 308 to Africa twice and not once did I feel under gunned. I killed all those mentioned by MD and Eland as well. I like the 308 and have been using it since 1957. Joyce Hornady introduced me to the 308 and reloading as well.

Why the .308: because it launches a .308" bullet of "x" grains weight, at a velocity of "y," fps and fits a short action rifle.

I think it's a simple thing to figure out.

The police in my town were investigating the killing a deer with a pellet gun in 2020.

An elephant was killed in Kaeng Krachan National Park with a 22LR in 2013.

25 years ago I realized the most common cartridges used on Elk would scale down to imply the 223 is overkill for any deer.

The fallacy in my reasoning is that the appropriate cartridge is used for the game. What really happens is that hunters use the cartridge they can handle* and work backwards to justify it.............. just like reasoning in politics.



* 10 pound rifles for men and 5 pound rifles for boys.... then work backwards to justify.

My exact sentiment. I dont really like the little 308, but actually bought one today, to keep my AR10 company.

After reading through this thread I've come to the conclusion the 308 cures cancer--maybe even the Wuhan Virus............

Maybe it does. According to mule deer, you could load the 308 "with horse manure" and it will shoot good. It might just come down to that, with todays powder and primer crisis...

Actually I suggested it might shoot well when loaded with "double-based" horse manure.

I'm afraid to speculate what that horse has been eating to produce double based manure........

lol.........

Ha ha.. Ok, that's how it went. Thanks for clarifying..

Careful, lest you incur the wrath and get accused of blow drying your chest hairs....

How did it weigh under 6.5# if the barrel weighed 18.5# ????

Sorry, as a literalist I couldn't help myself.

I switched from a 270win/30-06 to the 308 4 or 5 years ago. since then I've killed all my deer and elk, and several hogs with the cartridge. what prompted me to make the switch was an article I found on the web, written by john barsness, entitled "the 308 is great". I wanted a copy of the magazine containing the article and said so here on the fire. sure enough, one of our members had the exact mag and sent it to me for free. I promptly ordered a win model 70 ew in 308 as well as a ruger wood/blue hawkeye, also in 308. I gave my 270's to kids/grandkids and my 30-06 will go that same route next deer season. I shoot factory ammo. both 308's shoot 150gr fed blue box very well, which is all I use for deer/hogs. for elk I shoot fed premium loaded with 180gr partitions. last years elk was 266yards, one shot and done. I wish i'd made the switch to the 308 40 years ago. the perfect cartridge for my needs.

Why? A .308 is better for short 20" barrels. Less unburned powder than a 30-06.

It just works. In shorter, lighter, handier rifles than a lot of other cartridges that just work. I actually think the 7mm-08 is probably a better cartridge, especially at extended range. Having said that, I just bought another .308. Been using it since the early '80s and keep coming back to it.

I once bought a lightly used Sako 75 stainless synthetic off the rack at Scheels for a good price. Right next to it was a lightly used Sako 75 stainless synthetic in 30-06. My wife was with me at the time. She knows jack schitt about rifles. I handed her the '06, had her shoulder it, feel the balance, etc. Then I handed her the .308. She grinned and said, "I like this one better."

Me too.

Curious to know how you measure that?

My liking for one cartridge or another seems based more on the platform than the cartridge. For example, I am no fan of a Garand but love the M1A/M-14.

The main reason I bought another .308 is a buddy bought my last Gunsite Scout off me. "Had to have it". I replaced it with a Ruger SS Gunsite Scout, the 18.3" barrel version. I put an XS systems rail and a Ruger synthetic stock on it with a Burris 2-7x32 Scout scope. It works OK.

I really don't like the .308 as much as an '06. I used the .308 exclusively for about ten years and while it shot and killed well, I thought an '06 might be better for elk. I'm not positive it is but I like the results I have gotten with the '06.

Cartridge-volume-to-bore-volume ratio.

I'm not sure I can agree with everything you say, at least regarding factory ammo. With properly worked up handloads I would tend to agree with you. However a test I did a few years back running some 180 gr. Winchester Powerpoint ammo in .308 Win. and 30-6 showed velocity in 22" barreled rifle gave the 30-06 about 10 FPS advantage over the .308. IIRC, velocity from the .308 was 2610 FPS and 2620 FPS from the 30-06. I also shot some 30-06 from rifles with 24" and 26" barrels and the only time it got close to the advertised 2700 FPS was from the 26" Ruger #1B.

Rifles used in the test were Winchester M70 Youth Ranger .308 Win. restocked to fit me 22" barrel. For the 30-06, 22" J.C. Higgins M50, 24" FN custom Mauser and 26" Ruger #1B.

I'm sure results from the 30-06 came be improved quite a bit through judicious handloading as I have definitely gotten close to 2800 FPS in a 22" Remington M700 running H4350 and the 180 gr. Hornady SP.
Paul B.

I've used one 308 or another as my primary rifle since my father gave me a Rem. 600 in 308 in 1964. Ive taken a few deer, elk, moose, and hogs with a 308 since, as have my two sons. Currently, my 308's are a Win 70 FWT Stainless and a pre-64 Win 88.

There's no magic in it. It's just very practical: accurate, user-friendly, versatile,and lethal. My favorite bullets are the 150 NBT, 165 Hornady SPBT, and the 180 NPT, backed by Varget or 4064. If I had to use just one load, it would be the Hornady/Varget combo.

As an aside, Brad used to have a clever little saying about the 308 that he used as a signature line on his posts. Anyone remember what it was?

Reason 1 + 308 likes 4064
Reason 2 ++ 308 likes Browning BLR
Reason 3 +++ Aww Heck what was that other reason
Signed lwr 308

Louder blast noise and bigger fireball.

Why? Because my .308 carbine is so darn purty!

Straydog,

And how do louder blast and a bigger fireball mean unburned powder?

I've heard the "unburned powder" in shorter barrels argument for some years, but it occurred to me that if there was any of this unburned powder spewing forth, there would eventually be mounds of the stuff piling up just past the shooting benches at rifle ranges across the land.

Unfortunately my plan to recycle all that free powder just doesn't pencil out in the ROI column.

^ ^ ^ this ^ ^ ^

My neighbor (that passed a while back) told me about
" unburned powder " a good while back. He was a
long time reloader, and we were discussing some
technique of loading, when I mentioned I used XXXX
so-and-so powder. Well first thing was " that leaves
unburned powder- I won't use it. . . "
I asked him if it was accurate in his guns or not and
he says " well. . . .yes. . . it is "

Isn't that why most of us reload? Better accuracy?
I have many cleaning patches myself

I'll go out on a limb here and say I like them both. Have owned both and enjoyed both. But sold the .308 - If I only hunted deer then the 308 may have kept it's place in the safe but in the rifle I had (M70 Featheweight) the 308 kicked every bit as hard as my 30-06 (Pre64 M70 Std.)
I now have a 6.5CM that has taken the place of the .308 and does what the 308 did works better with lighter higher bc bullets.

Paul, I believe that the 30-06 power points you tested were only 10 fps faster then the 308 power points you tested. The reference I was making was a general one regarding factory ballistics. I don't doubt that at times there are 30-06 factory loads that don't meet published but that is the case with every cartridge including the 308. If you ran the test with lets say Hornady Whitetail ammo or Federal Premium ammo in both cartridges you might see that both cartridges meet published factory specifications. You could have instances where the 30-06 meets advertised ballistics and the 308 doesn't. I believe Muledeer calls these instances samples of one. I stated that the weight and length difference between the same rifle for both cartridges was miniscule. In a Remington SPS the difference was 1/2" and 2.4 ounces. In a Winchester Model 70 Featherweight the difference is 1/2" and 4 ounces. In my opinion the difference in length and weight between the 2 cartridges in the same rifles is just as meaningless as a 100 fps difference in velocities for the same weight bullets between the two cartridges.

OK give me another shot, I probably should have said in a short barrel the wasted combustion of powder gas occurring outside a 20" barrel seems less with .308 than 30-06.

Only time I’ve ever experienced unburnt powder was with a rifle cartridge in a 14” MagnaPorted barrel. Hated it. Never again.

I'm sure they enjoy having that "least accurate 100 fps" tacked on.

I sold my last two 308’s in the last year or two - AR-10 & 783. Though the neighbor that ‘bought’ the 783 skipped out without paying.
Being a military cartridge with buckets of brass available at so much a lb, the cartridge was bound to be a success. (A guy once gave me a good size bucket of military 7.62x51 brass. )
The military spends a few $’s on R&D. They don’t often screw up when they choose a cartridge (to say nothing about the 9mm, ha ha). If the 7.62x51 is a good cartridge for a man size target it aught to be good for white tail.
My favorite 308’s were Remington 660’s and the cheap 600’s without the ribs. I re-barreled a 1962 vintage 700 carbine from 308 to 358, just because, but I kept the 308 barrel, maybe it’ll be a 308 again.
When a rifle comes along and it is chambered in a 308, there isn’t a deterrent based on the cartridge. The 308 isn’t a cartridge that, at least some of us, dream about someday being able to get.
To me the 308 is a very good carbine cartridge that will do ok in a full size rifle too.

I think I have (13) 308s.

Never killed anything with a 308.

Never got a 1" group with a 308.

It's not me....it is the 308 that is the problem.

I remember reading when the Norwegians and Swedes where developing the 6,5x55 together, they would fire into mounds of snow, to see how much propellant was left.. that way they determined how long the barrels should be to get optimum performance.

These days with better powders shorter and shorter barrels are an option.


These days they call it 6,5x55 Skan to indicate full power loads.

300-400.000 active competition shooters use 6,5x55 each week in Scandinavia.. with a standard rifle.





And here is an old video, showing how they where shooting with the Krag rifle.


.

Thought I'd throw my 2 cent's worth in here...

For decades I was not a .308 fan. I tried a couple, and not being a heavy recoil lover, didn't care much for it. Both rifles I had, ....a Rem 788 and Savage 99, just kicked the snot out of me for some reason. So I never pursued the cartridge after that...

Fast forward to the past few years, when I found a light, handy AR10 in .308 was pleasant to shoot. So, I started shooting it. And hunting with it. Deer, hogs, whatever I want. I LOVE it.

Accurate. Cheap ammo. Quick followup shot if needed on multiple animals. It has really become my go to rifle for hunting.

I'd say it kills pretty well...





Is it the best rifle cartridge out there? I dunno. But for my needs, I've evolved to the point that I love it!

7-08 Beats 308!

A whopping 4" at 600yds, thanks Ron I'll take it. Lols

My first hunting rifle was a 308. I couldn’t move quick enough to a 6.5x55. I revisited a lovely 308 AII classic for 5 years then moved to 7-08. Still have the 7-08 14 years later and doubt I’ll ever be without it but it’s set up with lighter bullets and I’d like a 308 twin set up for moose

Why the .308?

It's a compromise, but where I hunt, it's one that works. I spent a lot of years, lot of range time, lot of dollars on rifles and components chasing "perfect" for the various situations. I'm no longer convinced perfect matters .. if it even exists. I've come to appreciate "good enough" as a trade that offsets all of the time, etc that chasing "perfect" requires so that the time, and money, can be put to other uses.

Living somewhere else, different terrain, cover, and game, the answers might be different, but where I hunt, a .308 with 165 grain accubonds or 180 grain partitions gets it done. Mostly deer, with the possibility of an antelope, elk, or bear thrown in, at ranges likely to be under 300 yards .. really likely to be under 75 yards.

I found that I spent a lot of effort finding perfect for long range .. STW,, .300 win mag .. etc. I found that even when I had the equipment, I didn't actually get around to the hunt I'd dreamed of. Same thing, I've had a couple good .338s and .375s I thought would be ideal for elk in heavy timber ... but I only do that a couple times a decade. I guess part of my compromise is recognizing that some dreams are only that, dreams, 'cause even when I have things all squared away to do them, I don't.

I could say everything I just said about .308 in favor of 7mm-08, 7x57, .270, and probably 6.5 creedmoor, but the .308 was what was available in the rifle I wanted on the day I went shopping so it's what sits on the shelf. At the same time I learned there's no perfect, I learned there's a lot of "darn good enough". Much of what we do is nitpick tiny differences in idealness with no real difference in adequacy.

Tom

A good rifleman can make anything work, and work well.

It's the craftsman, not the tool...

Did anyone mention it’s easy to load for? With all the powder shortage today I’m still finding N135, IMR 8208, IMR 3031. Benchmark

I have a lightweight stainless steel Ruger 77 made around '92 with Mauser style action, not a push feed. Plastic skeletonized stock with scope at around 7 lbs. I reload so my reloads are touching at 100 yards. 150g Hornady plastic tipped bullets and 45g of 4064 powder. Killed several deer, don't remember how many, all with one shot kills. I never feel it kick when aiming at a deer. I sight it in with a laser boresighter and hardly ever shoot it. Haven't changed zero in 15-20 years.

This is a great thread - this is what I love about the campfire and what lured me out of lurker status & info gatherer into participating.

Moving to VT had my mind spinning when the longer shots that as a mountain backpack hunter I’d spent a lifetime practicing and equipping for we’re no longer even a consideration. Never owned a .308 before and frankly never saw the need - most of my hunting life pre-dates rangefinders & dialing scopes - so always chose the velocity champs in any particular category.

Eastern hunting has nullified all the advantages that the hard kicking flat shooters seemingly provide. First rifle I picked up was an old Ruger 77 RL and after accurizing that little critter it quickly became my favorite. Seems that others on this thread had their epiphany at different times in their careers, mine came late but I’m really happy to be enlightened.

44gr IMR4064 & Horn 150 is a stone cold & reliable killer for me.

I still get a kick out of a 340 Weatherby slinging a 225 like a 270 slings a 130 but as time goes on, that 340 just stays in the rack.

Much love for Finn.

Surely you jest . . . I've done it with a sample size of n = 1