Why did the 284 Winchester and WSSMs not become a commercial success? I have no experience with the 25 WSSM but looks promising as a light deer and antelope round. I have a chance to by one, but wonder why it is not more popular? I had, until recently, a NULA 284 Win and thought it was a great combo, IMHO better than the 7 08, but brass became almost impossible to find! I had the same thoughts on the 7 MM WSM, thought it and the 7 mm SUAM where the bst of the bunch, but I must have been wrong, and yet the 280 AI is a home run!

Wssm cartridges have feeding issues. The original wsm owes its demise to the original creator Rick Jamison and his settlement with Olin over copyright infringement

7-08 is better than the 284 imho hence it’s still around in force

Yep. Kind of a no brainer...

284 is extremely popular for F class competition. Norma, Peterson, and now Lapua make brass for it. 7mm SAUM is somewhat popular in the same sport. ADG makes great brass for it.

When I read the title of this thread what immediately came to mind was the .250 and .300 Savages. Growing up in the 80's and 90's they were popular deer rounds. Not so much anymore. Seems the younger crowd doesn't care for 99s

Why is a 7-08 superior to a 284? That is a volatile statement.

Yes, many levergun calibers like the 307 and 356 Winchester. The 6mm Remington and 220 Swift used to be popular groundhog rounds, but the 243 and 22-250 seemed to put them out to pasture ( if they ever were popular to begin with).

The 6mm's are out selling the 243's on the internet!

Brilliant....

Hence the reason for your reply....

To me the dog turd of the bunch is the 223WSSM, was a bad design from the get-go

I have no experience with any of these, but expect the market sorts them out. If they significalkly outperformed the old "standards" they might still be around.

Looks to me like they have all disappeared.......................................

I have two 25WSSMs - one Winchester 70SS and a Browning Mountain Ti. Have used them on several whitetails and works as you’d expect - personally haven’t had feeding issues with either but have heard that they can have issues. It will not be around much longer unless some marketing guru convinces the public that it is vastly superior to the Creedmoor, PRC, etc.....😁

PennDog

I don't recall any feeding problems with the 25 WSSM in Winchester/USRA 70s, but I don't feel any great need to cycle manually operated rifles as fast as possible. I can count over 2K rounds of 25 WSSM fired from multiple Winchester/USRA 70s and another couple hundred 223 WSSM and 243 WSSM rounds fired from other Winchester/USRA 70s.

All of the Browning and Winchester/USRA rifles chambered in 223 WSSM and 243 WSSM had chrome lined barrels to extend barrel life, but you still can't overheat the steel under the chrome lining without damaging the barrels, I don't know if it worked or not, but they didn't put chrome lined barrels on the 25 WSSMs and mine don't seem to erode throats any worse than my rifles chambered in 25-284 or 25-06.

I think that the WSSMs failed for a variety of reasons. There was a lot of negative talk on the internet that was repeated many times over and probably served to scare some potential buyers away. I like rifles and cartridges, so I tried all three and really like the 25 WSSM. The WSSMs were redundant cartridges and the super short actions didn't lend themselves to being rebarreled for many other cartridges, but that doesn't bother me. Factory ammo was never that common and the best factory load for hunting medium game, the 110 grain AB, was discontinued long ago, leaving the 85 grain SBT for shooting varmints and the 120 grain PEP for shooting medium game. Both 25 WSSM factory loads are now made in seasonal runs that that tend to get bought up quickly and then sold at a premium price on-line. The Winchester/Olin brass did have thick necks, but Federal made component brass that has worked much better for me, so I made most of my 25 WSSM brass from Federal 243 WSSM brass.

We've got more different cartridges than we need and we have had for a long time (Yeah, I know, what's need got to do with it?) Every so often a company or individual comes up with an idea that they think will generate sales or ensure their spot in shooting history. The problem is, these great developments, if they offer any improvement at all over existing calibers, occupy a niche so narrow that they are only "appreciated" by a small subset of rifle loonies. That's not enough to keep them commercially viable. You will not convince Joe Sixpack that he should spend a bunch of money to upgrade to a tenth of an inch more, or less, of caliber and 120 fps more, or less in velocity to replace the rifle he's killed deer with for the last 12 years. He will be especially resistant to a cartridge that deviates, appearance-wise, from any "normal" cartridge. Yes, the 6.5 CM hit when the stars were aligned just so and made a big splash, Yes, it seems to fulfill all the promises of incredible accuracy. That's probably because it was supposed to be an accuracy thing to from the get-go and most of the rifles and ammunition offered for it are built with accuracy in mind. Still, from the practical standpoint of the requirements most of us have for hunting rifles, it won't do anything a 6.5X55 or .260 Remington won't do. Hell, my Sako 6.5X55 will shoot 130 AB's significantly and consistently under a half inch.

Yep, the neck was too short and the shoulder angle too shallow. Thus it directed hot gas in front of the case mouth, right where it would do the most damage to the throat. They also gave the barrels a 1-10 twist, when the obvious trend even then was toward faster twists. (They even asked a bunch of gun writers about the twist, most of whom advised faster.)Then Winchester promoted the .223 WSSM as the ultimate prairie dog round, when it fried throats VERY quickly in hot barrels.

However, I never had any problem with WSSMs feeding in the special short actions made for them, whether Browning or Winchester. In fact, I have a stainless/synthetic Model 70, the so-called controlled/push-feed model which basically copied the M1 Garand system. It works really slickly.

Bought it at a local gun store used, very cheaply, on the condition that I NEVER bring it back again for trade, or whatever. They even allowed me to look at the bore with my Hawkeye, and it didn't look too bad.

But it turned out the rifle wouldn't group ANYTHING under about 3", so I sent it to Charlie Sisk for a rebarrel. He put on a faster-twist Lilja, and it shoots great. But he also noted that the barrel and action threads were so mis-matched that while unscrewing the factory barrel, it essentially came off within half a turn--which was probably the major cause of the poor accuracy. Hard to get a rifle to shoot when the barrel's essentially rattling around in the front of the action.

It shoots GREAT with the new barrel, but I am not about to use it on prairie dogs. Instead it's one of probably too many .224 rifles used for larger varmints and smaller big game.

Probably depends more on your location. The .250 has never been popular up here although I think it was farther north where they hunt a lot of seals. The .300 Savage on the other hand is still fairly popular up here especially with FN people. Even the big box stores usually carry .300 ammo and they dont stock ammunition that doesnt sell.

I shoot the 300 Savage a lot in my 99's and a 700 Classic. I consider it to be a great 300 yard beer cartridge, which is about my self imposed limit. I works just fine.

Really? I've shot both and like the 284 a lot, so does Melvin Forbes, hand loading adds a lot!

I bought a .300 Weatherby MK-V Euromark back in 1986. It was a beautiful rifle and shot fine at first, but after awhile the accuracy went to pot. I tried all of the conventional cures to no avail, so I had it rebarreled to .340 Wby. The gunsmith discovered that the threads on the old barrel were undersized or messed up in some way. The factory had used epoxy on the threads when they installed the barrel, and after a certain amount of shooting, the heat had caused the epoxy to crumble, at which point the barrel began to rattle around in the threads of the receiver, ruining accuracy. The rifle shot very well once a properly threaded barrel was installed.

I have heard people say that the 22-250 is slowly starting to fade away.

I don't think that's true at all.

I don't know that I buy that. At one time the WSM's were chambered by pretty much everyone.

In my opinion, "timing" is the answer. I really agree with the above. Notwithstanding all the moronic statements such as "answer to a question never asked" the 7MM Remington Magnum just had too great of a head start timewise. In my opinion, that is THE reason both the 7 SAUM and 7MM WSM never became more popular. I speculate that had the 7MM WSM been introduced in 1961 the 7MM Remington magnum would never have been invented/introduced.

Beer cartridge? As in, "I can make that shot. Hold my beer!"

I am guessing the 6 Creeds are outselling the 243, not the 6mm Rem. I always thought the 6mm rem was a superior cartridge to the 243, but it really shines in a long action. There is definitely a prejudice against long actions for some odd reason.

I am actually building a 6mm Rem right now. Just waiting on the barrel. It is a 7.5 twist and is going on a long action. I've had several 243's in my life, but for some reason they all seemed goofy with regards to pressure issues.

I have a 223 WSSM and love it. I bought it new when they first came out.. never had any trouble with it in any way, it is the fastest moving bullet ever produced and will vaporize a Gopher.. most of you all like to run down something you never owned or shot.. just parroting other dumb azzes stupid opinions..

you can find 6 creedmoor and 224 valkyrie on the shelves here in sodak

but nary a 22-250 or 243.

plenty or 300 savage as well.

303 british is fairly scarce,

Yes but they were dropped like a hot potato when Jamison won a royalty payment for for each built WSM

8 x 57 is nearly gone. It's one of my favorites.
Charlie

Maybe a bunch have disappeared or diminished in factory rifles, but my internet ramblings seem to indicate that its a golden time for a lot of old-timey rounds, with brass and ammo available for stuff like the Remington rimless rounds and other orphans. Starline keeps expanding their offerings as well. With “regular” stuff is short supply, it might be a good time to futz around with an old-timer.

Agreed - I grew up in the same time period. Never heard of them till I got on the campfire. Know zero people in face to face life that own/hunt with them.

Yep, Winchester and Browning decided to drop them quick after being told that they had violated 7 patents (not copyright) applied for and held by Jamison. Basically they were told they couldn’t STEAL his work without compensation. The whole thing is here.

https://www.casemine.com/judgement/us/5914b5f3add7b04934775e7e

Cartridges won't vanish if you have dies and a good supply of brass. Buy cases when you see them, not when you need them.

Do that and us loonies will keep them alive.

You hardly see any 35 Winchester AI on the shelf anymore.

I have happily bought into several cartridges in danger of vanishing as factory offerings--284 win, 350 mag, 338 rcm, 35 whelen, etc. I immediately bought reserves of brass beyond what I will ever use, it turns out. I am not afraid of soon-to-be-invisible but interesting stuff.

The 35 Whelen is the most popular cartridge fir the Louisiana Primitive Weapon season

With the exception of French military offerings, of which I have none, I am most fond of the military cartridges of the World Wars...thanks to PPU imports, I am keeping them fed.

jwp and Swifty,

I'm somewhat baffled by your statements that the Winchester Short Magnums were dropped by various companies, including Browning and Winchester, after Jamison won the court case. This is partly because purchased not one but two new Winchester Model 70's in .300 WSM from a local gunstore, one in 2008 (not long after the suit) and another in 2016. (The second was one of the "Portugese" 70s, purchased mostly because I kept hearing derogatory statements about them from various people who'd never owned one. The only one the store had in stock was a .300 WSM.)

Plus, both Browning and Winchester still chamber the .270, .300 and .325 WSMs--and a bunch of other rifle manufacturers chamber at least the .300 WSM, both in the U.S. and Europe.

You rarely see the 7mm Wby anymore.....which besides the ballistics is a reason why it is one of my favorites....

.284 is more easily found now than when I first got mine. Heck, I am hoping to get a NULA .284 before too long if I can swing the price.

https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/category/categoryId/715?

Than why are they still being offered?

7mm-08 is better than the 284?

On what fuggin planet? LOL

John, it can be said truthfully that Winchester dropped em like a hot potato is true. Jamison won his lawsuit in Sept. 2005. 6 mos later March 2006 Winchester ceased to exist.
Now it is not impossible for local gun shops to still have one in stock as I kept seeing Winchesters for sale for a long time although the price had escalated a lot.
Now any agreement made between Browning who is licensed to use the Winchester name and Rick Jamison who owns the patents to make a WSM will probably never be known.
Either way, Winchester dropped em real fast.
Didn’t mean to ruffle feathers by stating what is public record. Winchester tried to steal the concept, got caught then went belly up.

I was lucky enough to find a left handed Win 70 in 270 wsm.....no feeding issues and very accurate. Not gonna give it up until I find a lefty .270 Win Model 70 for a decent price.

No one has mentioned the 264 win mag. They are still making it but I don't see a lot of people buying.

Also, it seems to me that sales of the 25-06 may be slipping .

I think all the proprietary lever calibers such as 308 Marlin along with the 30TC are dead on arrival. Ruger 300 RCM fits the mold too.

I am familiar with all that, partly because (like many gun writers) I was contacted by Winchester and asked my opinion on various aspects of the case before the suit was decided.

This thread is titled "Cartridges That Are Vanishing." The WSMs are not vanishing.

Might also add that the .300 WSM Model 70 I purchased in 2008 was a Limited Edition Featherweight Deluxe, one of a run only produced in 2008. So no, it was not a leftover from pre-suit production.

Wow John you are getting testy, calling me out and all I did is correct what was posted in this thread above. It wasn’t copyright infringement, it was patent infringement. Big difference. Call em out initially or suffer through. And since when on the fire does a thread title mean a damn thing. How many threads have started on one track then gone off on 30 different spurs. Mellow out.

Addendum, there are a lot of cartridges that are not dead, but the guns that shoot them will be in about 6 months. Also, the cartridges will be dead when you can’t get primers or powder to shoot them. This site might also be dead due to comments, conservative leanings and the fact that guns and ammo selling is allowed on this site.

Out.

One that is very hard to find today is 11MM Maurada. Wal-Mart just never seems to have any at all.
Can't seem to see why.....................................................

I went to half a dozen sporting goods stores last Saturday, and saw no 30-30, 308, 30-06, or 300WM ammo at all. Those cartridges seem to have vanished.

The .260 Remington is having a hard time getting life insurance these days, at least going by ammo availability vs. the 6.5 Creedmoor and even the 6.5x55 which is still hanging on.

Pre-shortage availability, of course. All loaded ammo is in short supply right now.

One of my favorites, the .25-20, can be said to have pretty much vanished. Remington stopped making the 86 grain component bullet a while back. Factory ammo??? Good luck with that. We are now making brass from .32-20 brass and a couple of commercial bullet casters offer bullets that are suitable. It's a shame. It's a mild-mannered cartridge that is reloadable. In my experience (never mind paper, foot-pounds performance) it puts the smack on such as coons, beaver, porcupines, foxes etc much more decisively than any of the rimfires and it's RELOADABLE. It's an adequate deer cartridge for one who is happy to hunt close and be careful with bullet placement. For woods loafing or high-volume backyard plinking it's mild-mannered and very inexpensive to shoot....especially if you cast your own.

Maybe have to see if Starline will make it in the future.

They didnt drop them. Winchester, browning, Kimber and others still chamber them.

That would be great. Last fall I was out in Missouri at my son's, and got him going making them from Starline .32-20's, which is not difficult. It would be much better though to have the correctly headstamped, real thing.

As far as the 223WSSM, I built one as soon as the chamber dimensions were published. Had a lot of fun wringing it out, and I’ll agree with earlier posters that the 1/10 twist was one of the nails in the coffin. Another was the horrible accuracy of some factory guns when Winchester threw some leftover parts together, including barrels without the chrome lining.

As a reloader, the case presents some particular challenges, nail number three. The brass is so heavy and the neck so thick that consistent neck tension pretty much demands annealing.

Other than that, it goes bang and sends a 22 bullet down range pretty fast and plenty accurate. But there are simply better ways to do that.

I hope the .220 Swift doesn't fade away. Only reason I don't have one is LH rifles in the Swift are pretty scarce. I will either have to get a Ruger or build one most likely unless I get lucky and find a Dakota at a garage sale. I would say the parent 6mm Lee is almost gone, want one of those too for some perverse reason or the AI version. There are a number of 22 rounds that are fading like the Zipper, Bee and the 222 which is still popular in Europe or was. They are still hanging in in an increasingly narrow niche. The Hornet has made at least a minor comeback, a Lazarus cartridge.

Forgot two other mediums that I want but don't have rifles for them now: the 358 Norma Magnum and the 8mm Rem. Magnum. Both are just barely hanging in there mostly because of rifle loonies.

Mule Deer has addressed this question/point in a general sense many times.

Money! But not in a bad way, in a capitalistic way. Stuff that generates revenue sticks around. Unlike the good members here, not everyone who is a hunter is a gun slut. In fact the best hunters I have met consider their rifles/shotguns as tools. "Wipe down the crescent wrench and put it up until needed". These guys get by with one or two rifles for a life time and generally use boring old cartridges that just work and are available where ammo is sold. I own a 280 and can, with confidence tell you the one thing that it tangibly does that a 270 does not, which is cost 50% more per box of ammo!

I felt that during the short and shorter craze the manufacturers through a whole bunch of stuff at the wall to see what would stick. Whatever people buy will stick around. Some of the cartridges that didn't stick may well have been superior but not enough so for people to wander from what already works and is readily available.

I had a 264 built a couple years ago, and its an awesome cartridge. Not sure why it still gets no respect, especially since 6.5s are hot these days. I think part of the problem is the weird numbers published for velocity. Not sure how they concluded a 140 at 2900 is the norm. I am at 3200 with a 140 and I'm not redlining it. Pushing a 150 sierra at 3080 with a bc of over .700. It is only 18 moa of drop at 1000. Also, people seem to be hung up on everything needs to be in a short action these days...

30-06 is vanishing. You know, the one that’s in every gas station in the middle of nowhere?

Yes. Many are short sighted ! (sarcasm)


Jerry

Agree with 260 Remguy & Muledeer. My M70 243WSSM feeds just fine and shoots quite well too. Bought cheaply so worth a try! In fact I've had more issues with a the 300 WSM in a MRC1999 but thats not the fault of the cartridge but the poor manufacture of the actions at the time. These were the initial production run. They were all over the place! Some good some really bad. I got one of the bad ones.

6.8 SPC is vanishing

Historically, they were very popular in the Northeast from Pa. to Maine. They were also very well represented in Michigan. Until fairly recently, you couldn't go into a deer camp in any of these locales without seeing at least one or the other, and usually several.

Truth here. I'm a gun guy, but my hunting rifle sits until general hunting (deer and antelope) season. I have other rifles that I shoot much more for other purposes. I bought a hundred rounds for this rifle ten years ago. It's a lifetime supply.

Perhaps you guys could give me some pointers

I got a 100 .32-20 cases and, using the .25-20 dies, tried to resize to .25-20. I had a whole bunch of buckled and folded necks and shoulders, the fold is lengthwise as the material from what used to be a .32 diameter neck folds at some point and the rest becomes a .25 diameter neck.

I think I had a 16% failure rate, ending up with 84 cases or something like that.

is there another trick to getting reliable re-sizing? do we need a series of forming dies to go to .30, .28, .26 then finally .25? if so, who makes them?

Thanks

Poole

Seems like the case is more popular for wildcatting than it is in It's original form.

Here's what works for me: First, I use Imperial sizing lube and very little of it, around the top half of the neck. Second, I don't try to reform in one pass. I have no idea why it makes a difference, but I find I lose fewer cases if I run it in a little (maybe a third of the neck) rotate the case about 120 degrees, run it in again, another third, rotate another 120 degrees, run it all the way in. Honestly, if you're getting 84% the way you're doing it, I wouldn't worry about it. Once they're formed to your chamber, you can back off with your FL die a little and, with reasonable, .25-20 level loads, the cases will last forever. I would guess that, doing the way I do, I still lose 5 - 10 % of my cases, but I don't sweat it. I've found I'm going to lose some any time I do a very extreme case reforming. As an example, I probably lose 15 or 20 percent making .22 HP from .30-30's, but so what? At most ranges, you'll find once fired .30-30 brass for nothing, often picked up and put back in the boxes and left on the bench for whomever might want it. (My experience, anyway.) I've found I can reduce losses by a certain amount of "process engineering" in most cases, but it all boils down to how much time do I want to spend experimenting and how much do I need, how much is it worth to me?

I can't find 26CM anywhere

That's accurate but often doesn't have much correlation to the merits of a cartridge. Perfect example is .260 Rem vs 6.5 Creed. The .260 had a 10 year headstart, but Remington botched it about as much as imaginable while Hornady hit a homerun 10 years later with a virtually identical cartridge. Would imagine some Remington staff were kicking themselves when they saw what could have been possible with .260 rifle and ammo sales if they had done a halfway competent job with the .260 Rem. If the .260 was any lesser cartridge, it would have already been forgotten, but it's hanging on because with a 1:8" twist barrel a handloader can get similar results to what people can get out of the box with factory rifles and ammo with the 6.5CM.

6.8 what ? Never seen one...... smirk


Jerry

I often wonder what shape the .280 would be in if Remington hadn't botched the PR for it multiple times...

Many case studies could be written on how Remington botched the introduction of cartridges with tremendous potential. I'm trying to think of Remington cartridges that have fully lived up to their potentials, and I'm coming up with three: .222, .223, and .25-06. The 7mm Rem Mag may be more popular than the .25-06, but the strange 7mm Rem Mag pressure issues that have been reported take some of the luster off. The 7mm-08 has fared better than many Remington cartridges, but it hasn't been the overwhelming success that the somewhat similar 6.5 Creedmoor has been for Hornady.

The .260, .280, and 6mm Rem sagas illustrate how to take what should be all-time great cartridges and botch their introductions, and then the "reintroductions" for the .280 and 6mm Rem fell short, too.

This thread has so many opinions or may I say some of the same opinions expressed several ways.

It seems even the military can't keep one cartridge for very long, unlike the 30-06 or the 7.62x51.

Here's my opinion and it is worth all that you paid for it:

With umteen cartridges coming out there are bound to be cartridges leaving. Ruger, Winchester, and Remington are all doing it, hoping to get a sale with something new. But they can't do it all there's the AI club and the proprietary club and the small manufactures trying to make it. (338-06 for instance)

Some of the old great cartridges are getting a new dress and there's people wowing and wooing about how pretty the new dress is and I gotta have one of those, because all the cool guys have one. New cartridge's come out that match other old cartridge's performance. It is the same game over and over.

examples: 6.5x55 now is the 6.5 Creedmoor and the 7x57 is now the 7mm-08, the 375 H&H is now the 375 Ruger. How about the 30 Newton? There's many new 30 caliber magnums and really how much better are they than the 300H&H or the 30 Newton? For some, wow and golly gee, I gotta have the new one - it means more sales for the manufactures and they will happily make the new whiz bangs.

Evidently the new cartridge's sell new rifles, otherwise the manufactures would not be coming out with so many. For us loonies, how many 30-06's are we going to put in our safes (8 is my limit). But if it's a new cartridge then why wouldn't we need it.

Like I said, my opinion and it is worth what you paid for it.

I have a .25WSSM and it's right there with the .25-06 in factory form. Handloading is different. Mine feeds perfect. I don't expect them to be around for much longer.

I think the reason many of the Remington offers didn't blow up in sales is they always start off with slower than optimal twist barrels. Hunters missed out when the 6mm was expected to be for vermin, The .257 Roberts, while incredibly versatile has had limited offerings in bullet weights, .22-250 could have been way more popular had it been offered in a faster twist barrel earlier on . The 280 has merit, but they flubbed it, then threw the 7mm RM out there and could have made it better with little effort. Again, it wasn't really doing anything better. Some of Remington's offerings didn't really offer an improvement, and with lazy marketing nobody got excited to try them.

On the other hand, Hornady hypes stuff, spends money to market new offerings, and has done well. Point of proof, the performance of the 6.5CM is nearly identical to the .25-06 at normal hunting distances, as is the .270Win.

Hate to say it but my beloved 338RCM is no doubt destined for the island of misfits. The cartridge is extremely good but what really made it was the compact rifle it was chambered in, the Ruger compact rifle. Perfect dimensions and acceptable weight. Makes me sad but im still going to use it and its superior to the 338 win in handling and does the same job until the bigger 338 win starts throwing 250gr missles.

Ruger and Hornady could have pitched the 338RCM much better as an amazing compact elk, moose, and bear rifle but it arrived without much hoopla and it flopped, big belly flop. It sucks because it appears the whole lineup of middlebores fail miserably with only 338 win being mildly popular in the states. The rest 338 Fed, 338RCM, 338 Marlin, 348 win, 358 win, 350 rem mag, and 358 norma are all pretty much in the waste bin of history.

Meanwhile some of us are still plugging along with the 256 and 30 Newtons. 😎

220 Swift although I still use it on yotes.

It's still a great round. I shot my first caribou with one at age 13, 60 years ago.

The almost complete absence of 22 Savage HP ammo and Hornady's dropping their 70gr bullet for the fat 22 has pretty much killed it in the USA. It's more popular in Europe than here.

I have been in a number of stores that sell guns and ammo over the past several months. The run on ammo had most of them, with the exception of a few of the big stores, almost completely out of centerfire ammo by the time deer season got here. I saw three chamberings available at most of the places I checked.........................25-06, 7mm Rem Mag, and 300 Win Mag. While I consider the 7mm and 300 magnums to be a little too much for whitetails, the 25-06 is pretty much perfect.
I'm not saying those cartridges are "dying", but they are certainly not as popular as they once were., at least not here where I am.

I remember reading someplace that Remington marketing people would label fried chicken as "warm dead fowl" or some similar remark as a comment on their smarts performance. As a 6mm Rem, 280 Rem and 300 SAUM shooter and modified Walker trigger user I can share your pain...

jim

I have over 500 rounds of the stuff if you need to see any

That's just a regional thing. I can't find 300 Win Mag ammo anywhere around me

What if Remington had left off the belt and introduced the 6.5 Remington Magnum in a more suitable rifle ?

Cartridges that are vanishing? Well, from the appearance of the local store shelves ... ALL of them. Last night I went into the store where I used to buy my ammo and components. The ammo shelf was full of off-brand loss leader scope and for components they had 3 pounds of Triple Seven (pellets, I think) and a couple boxes of 6mm Sierras. It's .. bad.

Out of all the cartridges I've seen discussed here so far, I haven't noticed any for which brass/ammo isn't obtainable, at least on the part of a shooter with some determination and sleuthing skills. In that respect, have any truly vanished?

If you want one that truly has vanished, try finding brass/ammo for .25-20 Single Shot, and its progeny the .22-3000/R2 Lovell/.22 Maximum Lovell wildcats. It's been 70 years now since the last factory stuff was made, and cases from boutique brass makers have come and gone. A lot more rifles exist in those chamberings than you might imagine (I personally own three), and those of us who shoot them jealously hoard the precious brass. (It's of an odd dimension that doesn't lend itself to being made from anything else.) These things were everywhere back in the 30's-40's, a highly popular .22 CF varmint round. Then overnight the ammo vanished, almost literally. What killed it? The .222 Remington, a Remington success story that IMO makes up for their fumbling the 6mm/.280/.260 footballs.

Yep, Remington has introduced quite a few very successful cartridges. Those that were initially successful and remained so for many years include the .222, which would probably be popular if it hadn't been modified into a military round which took the .222's place, and the 7mm Remington Magnum awas major triumph. They were also smart about "civilizing" so many popular wildcats, including the .22-250, .257 Roberts, .25-06, 7mm-08, .7mm STW, .35 Whelen and .416 Magnum (which had been around as an almost identical wildcat for a while). Some of those faded due to other factors, but they were very successful for several years after introduction.

The .350 Magnum also did reasonably well, and still appears now and then, but eventually had to compete with the .35 Whelen.

But they screwed up in various ways on other rounds, including the 5mm Magnum rimfire, .244/6mm, .260, 6.5 Magnum, and 8mm Magnum. The SAUMs are pretty good rounds, but Remington had the misfortune of introducing them a little after the WSMs. The story I have heard through the industry is that Winchester got wind of the impending SAUMs, so rushed the WSMs into production,, and since the SAUMS weren't quite as zippy, the WSMs won. Remington gets blamed a lot for their handling of the .280, but they never intended it to be a bolt-action round--though the 7mm Express was a major screw-up.

However, Winchester has had their share of screw-ups as well, the WSSMs being a prime example. But there were also the .219 Zipper, .225, .256, .307, .356 and .375 Winchesters. I doubt if any of those ever recouped Winchester's R&D costs.

The 8mm Magnum was an answer to a question that was never asked. That being said, I would not mind owning another one or better yet, having one built with a 26" barrel on a Mauser action.

The 6.5 Remington Magnum was also apparently the product of a fevered theorist at Remington. The intent was to provide .270-like ballistics in a "woods carbine," but apparently not many woods hunters wanted .270 ballistics.

With the major exception of the 7mm Magnum, Remington seems to have had pretty poor luck with their "metric caliber" introductions. That said, the 7mm SAUM is still hanging on, though more as a target round than for hunting. This kind of puzzled me--I owned and hunted with one considerably after it came out, and it was basically a short-action .280 AI, and introduced when short actions were getting a lot of love.

I don't know about now, but I saw about 10 boxes in a local Walmart about a month ago, along with some 7 mag.

Do you think that the WSSMs would have been more successful if the Browning and Winchester rifles chambered in 223 WSSM had been made with a 1-8" ROT
rather than the 1-10" ROT that they got and if Winchester/USRA hadn't closed shop in New Haven so soon after the WSSMs were introduced?

I have been told that the Winchester/USRA factory needed a big infusion of capital to do major equipment upgrades and that there were quite a few QC issues during the last couple of years that they were operating due to a lot of worn equipment and a few disgruntled/indifferent employees.

EDIT: There is a long list of cartridges that were introduced since the end of WW2, the following are just a few that have failed to become standards in their market niche;

17HM2
17 REM FB
5MM REM MAG
22 REM JET
221 REM FB
222 REM MAG
225 WIN
244/6MM REM
256 WIN MAG
260 REM
6.5 REM MAG
264 WIN MAG
7-30 WATERS
280 REM
284 WIN
7MM REM UM
307 WIN
8MM REM MAG
338 FED
338 REM UM
350 REM MAG
356 WIN
358 WIN
375 WIN

2x REM SAUMs
3x WIN WSSMs
4x WIN WSMs

Consumers aren't always right, but most of the time the cream still rises to the top.

Jeff,

I don't think the WSSMs would have been a success even with a 1-8 twist in the .223. There were several other problems.

Their big problem was their shape/head-size requiring entirely new bolt-actions from both Browning and Winchester. One thing that definitely helps newly introduced cartridges (which often mostly appeal to real rifle loonies) become establsihed is being able to rebarrel existing actions to the new round. This was difficult with the WSSMs, since they were both so fat AND short.

Plus, while the .223 produced faster velocities than the .22-250 and .220 Swift, the velocities of the .243 and .25 WSSms didn't improve on already existing rounds. I know quite a few rifle loonies, and only two purchased .25 WSSMs--and one of those was a fellow gun writer who got his at a discount. Never ran into anybody who owned a .243 WSSM, perhaps because even then the trend was to 1-8 twists in 6mms, and like the .223 the factory twist was 1-10.

Of course, Winchester shutting down didn't help, but the WSMs survived the hiatus in production. As noted in an earlier post I purchased a new Model 70 in .300 WSM in 2008, and three of the four original WSMs (all except the 7mm) are still chambered in Browning and Winchester rifles, and the .300 WSM is regularly chambered a bunch of other American-made rifles, as well as by European companies including Blaser, Sako and Tikka.

Sounds like what Winchester tried to do with the .284 Win.

Except Winchester chambered the .284 in "woods" rifles, a lever and semiauto, not a bolt-action carbine.

Yup.

seems that no one has mentioned the Nosler proprietary list of cartridges. I have a 26 Nosler and am quite satisfied with it. It would seem that the Nosler cartridges are eventually going to go away as not many manufacturers are chambering rifles for them.

The old saying what is old will be new again comes to mind.
I love odd ball calibers. Walk in to a "good" gunshop that has been around and find some odd ball caliber ammo gathering dust with price stickers from 20 years ago. That get's my heart thumpin.
Twenty years ago you could not find a gun chambered in 6mm Rem. I picked up a Ruger no 1 in 6mm awhile back and since then I have seen several people talking about 6mm Remington. Back as a kid in the early 80's I found a single 348 Winchester shell in a box of collectible ammo. I fell in love with that round. never seen a gun chambered in it. A few years later Browning came out with the repro. maybe odd ball but I love me a model 71. I bought a 600 Remington in 350 mag in my late teens and would buy any box of ammo I across. I think I invested wisely.
Some folks may say this caliber or that is headed for the trash can of history. Please show me the trash can. I'll go dumpster diving.

I was just about to enquire about the 22 Nosler. It never seems to get any mention on here.

Someone above mentioned the .25-06 beginning to fade. It seems a lot of the factories are chambering it with 22 inch barrels now which won't help sales I'd imagine. Though there are plenty of 270s, 280s and 30-06s with 22 inch tubes.

Me too. I just rebarreled to 6.5x57. I got the last 200 RWS cases in Australia and found a couple of factory boxes of Highland (PPU) ammo.

A few years ago when I got my Mauser M12 I got a 6.5x55. But the 6.5x57 was also available. I should of grabbed one when I had the chance as they are not listed anymore. It would of been a whole lot cheaper than what I went through to get my 6.5x57 up and running.

John,

While you don't know me, if you're counting WSSM owners, put me down for 21; 2x223, 4x243, and 15x25.

It seems that Nosler doomed the 22 Nosler it's self. the brass is butter soft and everybody I know that got in has jumped ship.

Looks like Lapua will be making .284 brass for 2021.

Phil Shoemaker had a nice write up on the 8mm Rem Mag a few manuals back in the Speer Reloading manual... Always wanted one.

I hate to see the 9,3x64 and the 8x68S disappear more and more from factory rifles. They were both far ahead of their time seeing as they are both basically beltless magnum cartridges. I view the 9,3x64 as somewhat of a precursor to the .375 Ruger albeit being a little weaker. The trend of "use .308 for everything" is particularly vicious here especially with the proliferation of suppressors and shorter barrels. I still have my little .22 HP, though and am happy that I can keep it fed with factory ammo, though.

I have (or had - some were shot out in the end) 20+ rifles chambered for those cartridges and I like them! I usually show up at deer/elk/prairie dog/antelope camp with a rifle chambered for a cartridge that no one else has.

When I saw the title of this thread the 250 and 300 Savage came to mind immediately. Two calibers that I like and have a couple of rifles in each one. I'm old and set in my ways and if it worked for the likes of O'Connor &, Keith, it's fine by me. The animals we hunt haven't changed. I have come to really enjoy hunting with single shot rifles in the last couple of years and had a 38-55 built on a 1885 High Wall action. If I ever hunt in an area that won't allow a bottleneck cartridge but a straight walled one is ok I have a rifle for the job. It might be considered obsolete or old fashioned by some but I can still take a deer or a bear with it same thing with the #1 405. I had a #1 built in a 30 caliber and while I considered a 300 WSM ever so briefly I choose the time proven 300 H&H.
It seems we continue to try to reinvent the wheel and IMHO the 300 H&H VS the 300 WSM is a good example as the ballistics are for the most part pretty much the same. I have no need or want for the latest and alleged greatest new super whiz bang magnum. I like the 6.5X55 better than the Creedmoor partly because of it's history. It seems the focus has become on how far away an animal can be shot versus actually hunting that animal. Nobody I know says there going deer shooting.
One (and probably the only one ) of the new whiz bang calibers that I have is a 25 WSSM and I've had it 20 years. This is in a Cooper Varmint Extreme. I bought because it was a varmint rifle and had Exhibition French walnut (I'm also a wood whore) case colored action and rings. I bought all the brass I could find and accumulated about 800 pieces so I'll not run out in my lifetime.
If it's not broken don't fix it but society cries for something new every year from automobiles to guns and the marketing people have to adjust to what the people want I understand that but this person just doesn't subscribe to that.

No fade here, local somewhat big-box store, only ammo on the shelf is .220 Swift, and a couple boxes of 6mm Creed

I sold my old Sako L461 Vixen .222 RM because factory ammunition was being replaced with the then new .223. I know that my.25-20, .221 FB and .300 Savage have been obsoleting themselves the same way and I've already mentioned my .257 Roberts 760. Too late smart to buy ammunition when I found it.

Very nice to know. Hope they follow thru.

Hello
I have about 100 factory G&H cases for 22-3000 and a box for 50 of them. Any idea of the best venue to get them into a shooter or collector hands?...

Member gnoah might be interested in them.

I meant patent...sry

I’ll stand behind all else. WSMs are offered sure...but not promoted...and certainly not popular.

WSSMs are as dead as Julius Caesar

Should you change your handle to "WSSM Guy"?

What is this vanishing you speak of?

My .25-20 SS is curious.

if thats true then why are new companies like Christensen, Fierce, etc. offering WSM chamberings?

If you go lurk on some of the social media platforms that cater to younger shooters, you see a whole lot of talk about ar platform cartridges and a few other darlings like Creedmoor, 6.5 PRC, 308, a very few others. What you don't see is much talk about anything else, and there's a pretty strong undercurrent of derision towards "fudd guns" and "boomer lore" and the like.

Unless the consumer patterns of the younger shooters change as they age, there will be a bunch of chamberings that are going to dwindle into obscurity.

Lemmings headed for the cliff, hey?

May the OLD 7X57 NEVER die!!!

Does anyone here have a 30 TC?

This is 100% accurate. The only cartridges the younger generation (my generation honestly) has any interest in are the .308, 6.5cm, .223, 7.62x39 and 300blk. A couple fringe cartridges are popular as well...think 6.5 Grendle and 450 bushmaster.

Im into these...but also love my classic guns. I can't tell you the last time i saw someone under 30 shooting a 270 or 30-06 at the range. I have some friends who shoot the more classic chamberings but its because they were guns passed down them. They aren't the shooters at the range pumping ammo downrange...just hunters who fire maybe 5 rounds a year.
Seems like if anyone in the Gen X, Y, or millennial category buys a gun...its an AR or Ak.

I'm a classic age wise LOL and I prefer the classic cartridges to the new and alleged super duper calibers coming out. To me it's marketing something new that is a revision of something thats been around a while. The 300 H&H is a classic and it's basically the same ballistics as a 300 WSM. I prefer the H&H chambering. I'm in the process of having a custom single shot built and it's going to be in a classic deer cartridge the 300 Savage which IMHO is the original short mag.

Former173rd if you meant 250/3000 Savage cases and ammo I'd be interested. I have two rifles in this classic chambering and both are delightful to shoot and the deer and antelope expire quickly.

All of them, looked at the shelves of your local sporting goods store lately?

.284 may be easier to find soon since Lapua is advertising brass for it now. There are 5 other brands listed on Grafs and Sons. 2 of those are in stock

Amen brother.
Paul B.

Nor its little brother 257 Roberts!!!!!

Yep. Took this pic at Scheel’s in The Colony, TX a few weeks ago. No 6.5 Creedmoor or much of anything else to be found. I was surprised they also had some 7 Rem Mag on the shelf too, but that was about it.

John

remington 722 in 300 savage is the bomb i should never traded it off. why do you miss them when there gone

The unhip cartridges need an image makeover, to appeal to the younger crowd.

257 Roberts = 257 Bernie
270 Winchester = 270 BLM
7x57 Mauser = 7mm Safe Space

I think I just vomited a little in my mouth

Just dropped off my 700 at the gunsmith yesterday for a new Bart barrel and a McMillan.
He had to order the reamer - guess 300 H&H isn’t a normal chambering these days lol.

I just had a #1 custom built in 300 H&H and love it. It's a sweet caliber and in a classic single shot it exudes panache LOL. You should have seen the look on my smiths face when I dropped off another #1 action for a build in 300 Savage. He says "you know if you want to resell this it's going to be hard to do". I replied the estate will have to worry about that i'm not going to.

Given the current fuzziness involving these newly "invented" cartridges appearing on the market, it is not easy to see the future or guess what will vanish over time. It is certain that the good older ones have not vanished, as seen in this thread. I will be long gone when the dust settles on this issue, and probably so will quite a few of you - but can offer an opinion based on experience. If we are still shooting/hunting and competing 25 years from now, some of our stuff invented in the late 19th and early 20th centuries will still be in heavy use and quite effective in comparison with these newcomers. Like - 30:06, 7X57 Mauser, 6.5X55 Mauser, and the older take-offs in different calibers as based on those cases. And a few more - like the 22/250, .223W, .22 Hornet, etc., etc. And, a few of the old Magnums too. Just an educated guess.

Waiting for the resurgence of .256 win.........

Might be a while LOL

And rename the TC encore to " tranny"

[/quote]

A guy could do an awful lot of hunting with that right there!

But I’m still setting pretty on a pile of .35 WCF Brass. 😉

do or did you own one.. or are you just following the uninformed crowd..? I bought one when they first came out , and it has been one of the best cartridges I ever owned..in a winchester Mdl 70.. it shoots the fastest bullet of any commercial gun ever made, and is extremely accurate.. don't knock it until you tried it..

What about that new cartridge from Weatherby based on a lengthened .284 Winchester case? The 6.5 RPM (Rebated Precision Magnum). I'm guessing that cartridge will have a hard time gaining any steam if Weatherby is the only one offering rifles in this chambering..

My newest incarnation of modern caliber is in the neighborhood of 20 years old. I bought a Cooper Varmint Extreme in 25 WSSM. It was the French walnut and case colored action that drew me into the light like a moth. I bought the dies and about 800 pieces of brass and am glad I did. It's a nice prairie dog gun for the longer shots. I've thought of taking it to the deer blind but never have.

At what bullet weight and rifling twist would that be?

It is in a very small market. In that market a 270 is a no go, does not exist. However, in another market, the real market out there, the 280 AI does not exist but the 270 is everywhere.

Cartridges that are Vanishing? Pretty much anything that used to be on a stores shelves..

Remington made some 673s and 700s in 6.5 RM, as did Ruger in the 77 and Mossberg in the 800, none of them lasted very long.

I've always wondered why the 350 RM didn't sell like hotcakes in the 600. A small package chambered for a powerful cartridge seems like it would have been a big seller in AK and in Canada where there are dangerous bears. The two or three 600s in 350 RM that have passed through my hands all went to buyers in AK.

6x45 is all but gone. Reloaders can make it without much issue but I don’t think anyone is making factory ammo for it anymore. Always wanted to try one for WA and VA deer season as they are both .23+ caliber states. Just haven’t got around to it yet...

An old shop that's been gone a while out here had a Model 1895 in .38-72 on display. I'd say that's about as vanished as you can get.

7 BR - Remington loaded it commercially for a few years then like they often do gave it no factory support and it died. It is strictly a handloading proposition now.

drover

Horse apples. The problem was the Winchester rifles. Browning rifles and AR-15s feed WSSMs perfectly.

I've got a few in the stable that are on life support. I have an old Model 8 in .25 Remington that I shoot once in a while. Also have its brother, a .30 Rem. Then I have a 21" Contender barrel in 7-30 Waters that I might hunt with some next year.

.270 Biden Loves Minors?

I'll take all you've got in stock.

I’m trying to get my hands on a Weatherby varmintmaster in .224 weatherby. It’s pretty well gone already. Surprisingly they go for big bucks on gunbroker. Want a .222 rem as well, .17 Remington was the only ammo on the shelf at my local big box, which is kind of an indication. These cartridges have been superseded by others but I still want a rifle in each one.

The .220 Swift has been mentioned but I think it’s here to stay. It has a cult following(I might be the leader for it) and seems to be growing. I have enough brass for the remainder of my life but looked online out of curiosity for ammo and brass, none to be found. It’ll never be huge but I think it’ll stick around.

I have 2 Model 70s in 25WSSM. One is a CRF, and one is a CRPF. No feeding issues at all...

what makes you think I am going to waste my time Educating you.. If you want to learn something google it..

I haven't seen mention of the 35 Rem in this thread - it's still relatively popular in some areas over there isn't it? Marlin still make the 336 in 35 Rem.

Nor it's overseas cousin the 6.5x57.

It also whitens your teeth, sweetens your breath, and makes you irresistible to lingerie models.

PM sent.

PM not sent. Former173rd, your mailbox isn't working. Either PM me or email me at [email protected] please, if you wish to dispose of those .22-3000 cases.

Like I said a month ago, I have three hungry rifles to feed with that brass.

Sorry for the intrusion, guys.

If a new rifle came out in 30 Newton, I'd likely be in line to buy one.

They have all vanished

Nothing in this area to be had.
All shelves are empty

Absolutely nothing causes me to think that you would spend time on education - and am not seeking learning from you. I simply asked for two common ordinary figures. The question has to do with your interesting claim "it shoots the fastest bullet of any commercial gun ever made" and, with an honest reply from you, your claim could be verified - or not.

Then google it...

Either you are too silly to realize that weight specifics about an unknown bullet will not be generally found on "google" (unless you are shooting some current factory load - which you do not admit or identify) and the rifling twist only might be there if you are shooting a Win barrel made to some known specs (which you do not state) - or - you simply do not know the bullet weight and the twist. Serious shooters and reloaders do know these things about their loads and barrels, and they seem to enjoy sharing such info with one another here quite frequently. Seems like the best thing is to assume that you do not know - and one does not need "google" for that. And, in re-reading your "fastest bullet of any commercial gun " comment - it seems best to assume that you are blowing smoke and know even less. Do you care to demonstrate otherwise??

You have proven what a Dumb@ss you are. about something that happened 30 years ago..go to bed.

I dont know if its been mentioned but my 338RCM and its smaller sister 300RCM were commercial failures. Have to admit i love the 338RCM and the Ruger compact rifle. Its the perfect hunting rifle for all but the heaviest of game. If it comes to the point where i cant soirce cases any longer ill rechamber to 338WSM and keep the ball a rolling.

Wrong ! What has been proven by this exchange is that, as often usual, the doofus with the weak case and no class will resort to ad hominem jabs. Now, tell us again about how it shoots the fastest bullet of any commercial gun ever made. Vanishing point !

I must agree - the 338RCM in the Ruger compact form is a very nice hunting package for anything we go for over here - even if recoil is a bit stout.

All of the Browning and Winchester/USRA rifles chambered for all 3 WSSM cartridges were cataloged with 1-10" ROT barrels.

I load some 150grn. PSPCLs down to 2800fps for my 350 Rem. mag. and it is a hammer on deer here in Mi. Remington could F##k up a free lunch. And now their gone. Maybe they'll come back better.

Wal-Mart is completely out of 44 Henry Flat and 44-100 Ballard both.


But the counter girl is very pretty, so I go back and ask every now and then. She always bends over and looks at the boxed on the bottom and 2nd from the bottom shelves for me. The truck just has not brought any in yet.

I mentioned the 338 RCM was about gone to my gunsmith last year and he stated that he'd rebarreled four rifles so far that year which surprised me. The sambar deer hunters like them over here apparently.

As long as I have brass and the dies my favorites will never be gone and I'm always on the hunt for brass LOL

The 243 win is a much more popular cartridge than the 6mm rem because so many people don't realize how inferior it actually is to the 6mm rem.imho the 243 suffers from bad case design , short neck & to body tapper ,now I realise big green messed up the twist right from the get go & that Winchester hit a home run by necking down the 308 especially when you consider brass availably but the 6mm out pefourms the 243 by 100-150 fps with any given bullet ,big green doesn't chamber their 6mm in any rifles any more so it's another fine example of Remington's marketing folley that did so well .hell no wonder they just went under twist , duh !!! Just my 2 cents

Close your bail and loosen your drag.

Thanks for that - will assume that guy would have been using such a barrel/ROT. Looks like that cartridge factory load used a 55 gr. bullet - have not checked, but probably optimum for that load and ROT. When I go up around 69 or 70gr. with the .223 bullet, the ROT seems to become much more critical and the tolerance slimmer. Thanks again.

Surprised no one has mentioned the PPCs. Bought my last factory 15 years ago - not seen any since and no new rifles available. And don’t mention that AR PPC creation

I have some of the rounds listed as disappearing on this thread...

They aren't disappearing if you hand load... that's for sure...

at least not at my place...

plus you treat the brass right, you can make those last a long long time...

That’s funny! I like your style.

All of them.,or it seems that way now.

The PPC's were never very big in the commercial market in the first place, but the 6PPC is still the overwhelming choice in short range bench.
Some use 6PPC Norma cases but most fireform 220 Russian Lapua cases to make their brass for custom chambered barrel's.

To guarantee you will never see another factory rifle chambered in a PPC is the Grendel (basically a copy of the PPC for factory rifles), then you have the
6ARC.............a PPC copy for the AR platform

Have not read all this thread but , agreed along with BR cases ,but 6.5 grendel really isn't much different than 6.5 ppc would be

Grendel twist be mo' twisty than PPC twist.

True ,but was referring more to the case its self

I have heard the .30-06 isn't as popular as it was a century ago.

If only it had not had such a limited range of application, it may have found more acceptance.

It would be if there was a better bullet selection available. 😁

22LR's. I swear I saw some back in December, but they're gone now.

And on a similar note, that mythical creature, the 12 gauge field load.

Lots of people are planning on fending off apocalypse zombies with number sixes.

A little douchebaggery perhaps

That may be true in some lofty circles, certainly, but in rural areas, where Birkenstocks, Brie, and cucumber sandwiches are as rare as good dentistry...we still hold the Govt model of 1906 in high regard, although, there has been some shift of interest to the 7.62x63 of late. 'Twas a long and contentious battle for us to surrender our .30-40 Krags, there yet remain a few bitter clingers.

I'll second Mr. Sisk's vote for the 8x57. That used to be the kids rifle cartridge of choice in our camp. Most of the founders were gun guys that had at least one loner 98 so chambered. I used one to take my first deer. These days it seems the guys that own 8mms are all at least in their 50s, bought them 25 years ago when 98s were pretty cheap, and shoot them once or twice every five years. I have to admit I kind of fall into that category.

Yeah it's a shame the bullet variety in 30 cal is so minimal !





I feel it's UN American to not have an 06 !

Jerry

Blasphemy! (But true.) Just wait, there will come a day when .30-06's aren't around anymore and all you naysayers will beat a path to my door for one.

Maybe you should do some yard work in the mean time.

I just finished my 48 th deer season hunting in Ark, La, Ms, & Al. In all of those years I never saw ONE hunter carrying (usng).......

8X57, 7X57, 257 Rob, 6.5X55, 6.5 Creed, 300 Sav, 284 Win, or any of the more 'odd' ball cartridges.
I have had guys to say..."6.5 What"....What's a 284 Win or 8mm RM. (One guy actually said, "they never made a 8 Mag."
I showed him a brass case !!

There are many cartridges NOT being used by the general hunting public that WE like and revere.

Jerry

Guess it just shows what an old timer I am that my most used cartridges are the 25-20WCF,38-55, 250-3000, .257 Roberts and the ol 270 gets drug out once in awhile. I have had an itch to build a 22 Hornet or 7x57 once in awhile. I've never had tag soup on account of the cartridge used, so I don't have much reason to change.

Somehow, I think both Jack O'Connor and Elmer Keith would have avoided all WSM cartridges, including the 270 WSM.
Most of my larger game has been kilt with a 348 WCF or Ackley version of same. But I bring out an 1886 in 33 WCF
jest to amaze my friends and shock my enemies.


The Bolsheviks shot counterrevolutionaries. " The further away I get from Washington, D.C.-The more hope I have for the country."-Will Rogers

Several cartridges that come to mind to me when I read this post. Many of you have talked about them.

I will never understand why the WSSM cartridges were not a success (I don't know anything about the "law-suit"). I had a 25 wssm and loved it. No feeding issues whatsoever. I wish I had it back.

Another great (IMO) is the RCM cartridges. They were excellent to me. People always point to the fact that they didn't do anything the 300/338WM didn't do (YES, they did from a 20" barrell!!) 300WM from a 20" barrel will not do the same thing as a 300RCM from a 20" barrel. I have found that mostly in the hunting world lightweight short compact rifles mean NOTHING. Everybody seems to think they need a 26" barrel and a 6-24x56mm scope on a rifle that weighs 11lbs to shoot a whitetail at 100 yds. Give me a 20" 300RCM and a 2.5-8 loopy and call it a day!

Lastly, the 358 Winchester. HOW THE HECK IS THIS NOT THE MOST POPULAR BIG GAME CARTRIDGE ON EARTH? I have never once seen a box of 358 in any of the gun shops I visit and online its pretty scarce.

This thread is making me feel my age. I shoot deer with a variety of calibers (it's the spice of life don't you know) these are the 250/3000, 300 Savage, 38/55, 257R, 358, 7X57, 35 Whelen, 450/400, 300 H&H 6.5x55 ect. I'm thinking of dusting off the 270 and a 308 for next season. It's the hunting vs the shooting thats important to me.

RLH

Even tho I didn't think about it.... I've had a few 358s. That's another I never saw anyone else hunting.

Jerry

I know of no one who hunts with any of the cartridges I mentioned. Want to get some looks in deer camp? Pull a #1 out in 450/400 NE or a nice High Wall in 38/55.

I like my Ruger #1 in 405 Winchester. It was Teddy Roosevelt's lion medicine caliber of choice in a Winchester 1895 so it's good enough for me. With a couple hundred cases and 8-10 boxes of Hornady bullets plus 4 boxes of factory ammo this and my 450/400 (also a #1) can be fed for a long time to come.

I think what killed the RCMs was lack of components, and Hornady using proprietary powder, brass only available by Hornady, etc.... People were not getting, by handloads, what factory was claiming and achieving..

As for the 358, agree, and the 338 Federal should be a lot more popular than they are...