I read on another thread that Remington's quality into the 2000's was slipping. When/why did this happen?

I noticed in the late 90s - had MANY Problematic 700s.........

Beancounters

...and badly worn machinery

I heard somewhere that many of the talented work staff had retired at this point causing quality to go down.

Well, I will disagree. All of the R serial number receivers are CNC machined and are way way better than the older ones. Yes, I've had them in a truing fixture and checked them. They have had a problem with primary extraction as the bolt handles were attached too far back on the bolt bodies.
I know nothing about the barrel quality or triggers as I haven't used either for at least 20yrs.I need to correct that. A few years ago I had a 700 in 25-06 that was the worst shooting rifle that I've ever had in my hands. It is in the hands of an unfortunate soul at this time.
I really like the R series receivers and have bought several for builds.

Ido not know why, but will attest that the great 308 I bought in 79 was and still (even well used) is superior to that same flavor from 2010.

There is no gun company i can think of with worse quality than remington. They have taken brilliant designs intended to be inexpensive and idiot proof to build and have messed even that up.

The last several 870s I've purchased needed the chamber to be polished to function...of the last three 700s i purchased, one had zero primary extraction, one had a cracked bolt (model 7), and one had a gouge out of the chamber so bad it wouldn't extract at all.


Great designs...piss poor execution.

Also, the new ones are a crap shoot in accuracy...the old ones could almost always be made to shoot.

Last One I bought was an 870 Express maybe 20 years ago. Was so-so, with a crappy plastic triggerguard. That, and the horror stories my son told from his job at Gander after that kept me from wanting more. I’m sure some good ones were made, just didn’t want the bother of dealing with a bad one.

I actually liked the plastic trigger guard. The painted aluminum ones tended to get beat up pretty quick imho.

FWIW once i polished those 870s, they have been perfect.

Remington is a company that some people love to hate. Depending on your age, some folks dump on their products, citing the approximate time that the quality went south. All companies send out lemons from time to time.

I am not a fan of Remington bolt actions, but I would ask the people here what they would buy if most of the US manufacturers stopped making firearms. You could buy offshore stuff.

Perhaps the US government will lift the Chinese import embargo. You can buy copies of US designs, made by Norinco in the far east. How about Russia perhaps?

For those who say, I'll buy Tikkas or CZs, okay. I guess losing another US company is okay then.

Be careful what you wish for.

Somebody, I believe who worked in a plant said that cost cutting measures(retirements) were not merit/knowledge based.
I don't recall who it was.

I read an article from 2017 earlier this week indicating that the move to rocket city involved a lot of machinery upgrades such as 3d printers and machining tools that completed multiple steps meaning 3 machines could do what formerly required 11 machines (and operators).
The trick is that new technology often favors the young and leads to the loss of wisdom from the production team.

Steve,

I understand what you're saying but trust me...waiving the flag, holding your nose and buying junk because its Merican is not the answer.

Its the corporate greed culture that ruins companies like this...suck out the profits, don't reinvest and maximize profits buy cutting manufacturing cost. Wait for the bottom to fall out and file bankruptcy and laugh all the way to the bank. This is a dance that many American gun makers are well versed in.

There are lots of American companies building great guns...the problem is that the average user doesn't know what quality is and/or is not willing to pay for it. Its to the point anymore that quality means cottage industry

Butch,

You're right. The last 10 years of production has improved the product, including the general accuracy of M700's. It was the late 90's to roughly 2010 that the quality seemed to suffer.

No manufacturer does what they do out of the kindness of their hearts.

I never suggested holding your nose and buying junk. I hope that the new owners will recognize what they have and build profitable, American made rifles again. I like to be optimistic about their future. To dismiss them out of hand is unwise IMO.

Naturally, the naysayers will continue to dump on Remington. I get that. I know that we will continue to hear the complaints, both real and imagined for a long time. They just bought Remington to flip it for a profit. Yeah, yeah. Things haven't been the same since 1990, 1980 1970...Their triggers suck. Their stocks suck.

Okay.

I hope that the boardroom is listening and will correct some of the things. To borrow from the Trump campaign - Make Remington Great Again! If they try to resurrect the business and fail, I hope that other US manufacturers will take up the slack. Keep trying until you get it right.

I'm not sure if it is the time of year, COVID, the US election or low testosterone, but grumpy is everywhere around here. Anyway, we return you now to the crabs.

I'm surprised this thread didn't bring the Remington haters out of the woodwork.

If the M70 was the "Rifleman's Rifle" the M700 is the "Every Man's Rifle".........

DuPont sold Remington to C,D & R, a Wall Street scumbag shark capital management firm in 1992 (or 93). In the late 90's C, D & R borrowed $200 million against Remington, pocketed the money and gave Remington the debt. That's why Remington began to struggle.

In 2007 Cerberus, another Wall Street scumbag shark capital management firm bought Remington including the $200 million in debt. In the fall of 2007 Cerberus announced they were taking Remington public and an IPO was scheduled in the spring of 2008.

Enter CNBC, a scumbag, anti gun network. CNBC immediately began production of an "expose" to be called Remington Under Fire. Remington Under Fire was released in late February of 2008. Remington Under Fire was created expressly to torpedo Remington's IPO. CNBC succeeded in doing just that. ( And I can't help but note how many professed pro 2nd Amendment, pro gun people bought into what is probably the most sophisticated hit job ever aired on national television.)

Soon after Cerberus canceled the IPO, and devised another method to suck some money out of Remington and convinced lenders to hand over $840 million dollars in loans using Remington as collateral. Cerberus pocketed the money and gave Remington the debt. At this juncture Remington is now laboring under 1 billion, 40 million dollars in debt.

No firearms manufacturer and no ammo manufacturer on the planet could succeed with that kind of debt. It is quite the testament to Remington that they made it over a decade before folding.

rahtreelimbs, hopefully that addresses your question.

Savage arms was a phoenix that rose from the ashes and turned itself around with Lee Iacocca style. I believe it was Ron Coburn that was at the helm when Savage made the turn.

If Savage can do it, Remington can too if they listen to their customers and to the industry. They need to take some Marketing tips from Hornady on the cartridge front. If they start with some attention to detail on fit, finish and price, it'll go a long way.

Well said!

What are you talking about? "On the cartridge front?"


That doesn't exist anymore.
The ammo branch was bought and won't be much more
than a name on the box. Nothing at all to do with the
gun maker anymore.


Remington on has become Winchester of the last 40 years.
Completely seperate companies but hearing a name.
Not a single one of them actually the brand as a free standing
company like we think of it. Being bought and sold by puppet masters.
Finally, not even being built in the "Real factory, by the real workers".


Having said that.
Remington can move ahead, maybe be better than ever. (Both of them)

On the gun side though, they are swimming upstream.
With one hand behind their back.
Towing baggage.
And it's raning. Hard!

I understand that. When producing new rifles, make sure they have the appropriate twist as one example.

It's a mature market, hunting rifles don't wear out like cars. I regularly shoot a 103 year old P-14 made by Winchester. Most hunters I know are content with their one hunting tool..

Not I.

must be the last dozen or so remingtons i have bought since 2009 were from a Different Remington Arms. as I havent had any issues with any of them in fact a 700 varmint in 223 will shoot just about any 55 gr. bullet you choose into tiny litle clusters my longest string being a box of the cheap remington UMC. i fired the entire box into one ragged hole that was covered entrieely by a nickle. the 700 BDL in 7 Mag I bought 2 years ago shoots several laods into half in or slightly larger groups. h870 Turkey gun has been 100 percent bombproof. Several of the others were Walmart 700 ADLS that I no longer own but had no problems in funtion or accuracy from any of them.


what has always amazed me is the amount of peopel who will gladly spend 1500 bucks give or take on a Kiber rifle full well knowing that theya re going to have to go through a long series of steps to unfugg it just to get it to shoot half way decent. whereas I fully expect that a firearm costing that much should require nothing more than a good scope in good, solid ounts and decent ammunition

The last two Remington 700 LTR`s I bought last year shoot great.Both came with 40x triggers from the factory.My only complaint is the 223`s twist is 1/9,but it still shoots 69 grain Sierras into dime size 10 shot groups at 100 yards.

I have quite a few Remingtons. Other than the poorer finish on the ADL's and replacement of walnut with plastic, I have not seen quality declining. The accuracy is still there. However, the worst Remingtons were the ones with their first plastic stocks AKA Tupperware! Those stocks were worthless, I mean absolutely worthless.

As far as function etc no issues with recent 870 or 700. The cheaper 788’s I have never purchased but don’t care for the feel when I handled them.

Bugger, I been a Remington owner and fan since 69. I don't hate that 1st gen Tupperware, have 1that came on a m700 300 win mag ss model from the early 90's the recoil pad was worthless just like the one on my 870 express 20 ga but no problems with the limbsaver and R3 replacements on them. Yeah my 65 model 7 mm mag ADL needed the original black pad replaced too. Rem pads all age poorly like most everyone else's. Just got to replace them occasionally. Remington's biggest problem is being bought and mishandled by a bunch of fugtard corporate raiders who couldn't t manage a pc circle jerk fugging asswip*s.. none of the manufactors put together any kind of a basic model that is as
finely finished as a 1980's model 700 ADL any more. That is the way it is. Mb

Vulture capitalists, like said above, destroyed Remington, H&R/NEF, Marlin etc.

Bought one of those, 700 BDL SS Mountain Rifle. In 300.
Never realized it was a mountain rifle until much later.

The dealer rented a room to a gunsmith.
Paid for the gun, and dropped it off to be shortened a little and
have a Decelerator installed. Knew darn sure I didn't want to
shoot it with that hard pad. Bought an 870 express with the
same type pad. Probably some rubber left over from making
haul truck tires.

Those first Tupperware stocks you could tie in a knot, they were the filmiest excuse for a stock I've ever seen.

Remington went bankrupt for a good reason. If you want a proper rifle, of course you could always buy a Remington 700, and replace the stock and pillar bed the action, replace the rough trigger, "blueprint" the action so that the locking lugs are square and true, replace the bottom metal, fix the sticky bolt stop so the bolt doesn't fall out, re-drill the off centre scope base mounting screws or buy eccentric scope ring inserts to compensate, replace the crappy little extractor with a Sako style claw, and perhaps buy an upgrade to the main spring & striker. Good luck to you if the bolt handle falls off, but don't worry too much, somebody makes a proper replacement. There is a good reason that a small industry has sprung up to fix what Remington should have done right to begin with. I have had a string of bad luck Remingtons. But my sons have two that were actually OK. Except both are chambered in 7mm-08 and have drastically different chamber throat dimensions. No more Remingtons for me.

Don’t agree wholly. Their design is sound. Nothing wrong with the bolt stop or the extraction and multi piece bolts have become the norm. It’s the execution that has failed. They are built like [bleep]...but the design is good imho

What good reason did Remington go bankrupt?

They’ve been run into the ground by parasite bean counters for one...a couple times now.

Also a pile of bad product decisions...we all know this

For those who didn't bother reading the thread......

Yatzi.

There was trouble in paradise prior though. Mike Walker and Wayne Leek both resigned over qc issues if I'm not mistaken...and seriously...correct me if I'm wrong. Walker is on record as such...Leek...cant seem to find anything in print but i know I've read it.

Remington is an American institution and I truly wish them the best. Ive got a collection full of them and a lifetime of memories with them

Didn't DuPont pick up Remington cheap?

How many average buyers do you really believe do all or any of that?
The reason that there’s a whole cottage industry around the Rem 700 action is because it’s been the most successful and copied action for decades. Your describing upgrades that are mostly theoretical to the average hunter or casual shooter and generally only needed by either competitive shooters or high end custom builds as a way to sell to customers some nice add ons to have the “best.”

Where Remington lost there way was lack of invocation or listening to consumer demand and allowing a brand that was once associated as quality to slip to a very cheaply plastic stocked Walmart brand. That the Remington niche today is low cost bolt rifles and pump action shotguns. Two lower demand and lower markup guns in today’s market and trying to compete against other more innovative sellers at the same price point in the bolt action rifle world.

Beauty may be in the eye of the beholder but Remington firearms tend to be unpleasing to the eye and they don’t listen to the customer base unlike Ruger with No 1’s, Blackhawk Bisley’s, Lipsey’s African and other designs or special runs that make them more than just an economy brand. Remington should have a well marketed line of nicely made well stocked hunting rifles based on there 700 action. The same basic action that everybody and there brother uses as a basis to sell high end competition and hunting rifles around. Instead they’ve cheapened out every component around it and put it in a garbage stock to sell high volume low mark up Walmart rifles.

Having said all of that it’s been my experience that a newer out of the box Remington 700 will still shoot well to very well and function reliably and so will the Rem 870.

If Remington made the highest quality guns on the market, there would still be the "haters", who would find any reason to run them down. You can argue it any way you want, but their Model 700 has been THE bolt action design that ALL others are compared to for about the past 50 years. It has been the best selling bolt action rifle on the market, and that's what draws the criticism, from those people who choose to buy something else, perhaps trying to justify their choice.

Every bolt action centerfire rifle that I own, except for one, is a Remington, either a 700 or a 7. I just like the design and have yet to own one that I could not get to shoot good enough for my purposes. I did have a bolt handle come off one, and have replaced most of the triggers, mostly because I hate the newer trigger, but that has not stopped me from buying more. I have a simple philosophy concerning situations like this..............it's none of my business what someone else buys, and it's none of their's how I spend my money. In other words, if you don't like Remington guns, or for that matter any other brand, then just don't buy one.............just be happy with what you do choose to buy, and keep your mouth shut about what the other fellow owns.

Well - I checked, and had another smith check some of the RR actions I was getting ready to True... to see how aligned they were to the core raceways.

the first was 3 thousands off center with about 1.5 thousands crookedness (angled).
the second was almost 6 thousands off center with 2-2.5 thousands of crookedness.

Personally I don’t consider that very high quality especially Action #2.

they distort when the lugs are hardened (heat treated)...

Either way they are trued now so they are both centered co-axial, and straight.. I have one more to do yet ...
These are the builds I’m making for my nephews.


Jibber Jabber about quality without measurements... I used to do that.. not any more.

What kind of measurements are seen on the average or current Winchester, Ruger, Bergara, Tikka etc. actions ?

What are baseline measurements or averages for a production, middle priced hunting rifle action?

The 700s by DESIGN are a problematic POS.

I like my Remington . But the guy who said they made high quality firearms doesn't know Remington history of the last 100 years. Yes they did set out to make a quality rifle, the 720 version of the Model of 1917 that they made before the war. The one dollar rifle, they lost a dollar on each one sold. After the war they set out to make lower priced rifle much like Savage did 10 years later.

So far I have only logged remingtons, but the guy that taught me how to measure them right said most factory actions are 1-3 thousands out of coaxial, and or angled... they are different measures.

The way you measure them it to dial in the action using an mandrel and bushings so the raceways are prefectly straight.
Then you measure the shoulder flatness
Then you measure the lug surfaces for flatness & taper, and height
Then you use a REALLY small ball on the end of an indicator, put the lathe in threading (engage the half nut) and spin the chuck by hand to measure the thread bearing surface as it rotates (off center), and as you spin the chuck and it chases the threads you often see the needle top and bottom vary which shows you how crooked the thread is to the race.

I’ll start logging of the ones I pull anymore now.. measuring the threads is a bugger if you haven’t had someone teach how to do it the easy way.

I understand the measuring process to a point & the numbers you gave on the first action sounded reasonable to me. The second, compared to the first, not so much. .003 TIR on something that's 6 or 7" long & doesn't cost all that much for what it is doesn't sound bad. .0015 of angularity really doesn't sound bad either.

But until there is a baseline, a standard, or comparison to other brands, or tolerance allowance, those numbers don't establish what is good for a baseline. How they compare to competitors tolerances would mean something IMO.

What is acceptable?

I have gunsmith friends, benchrest shooters, etc. say the Rem. is no good. Well yeah, compared to a Stolle Panda or a Bat they pale. But how do they compare to other brand actions in there price range is the subject I would think. When we get those numbers, we can start a real comparison. And then, if the Rem fails, it fails. I can totally accept that.

Mike Walker retired from Remington at the age of 65 in 1976.
And he was still competing in BR shooting at the age of 99.....
In other words, he fully enjoyed his retirement for another 35 years or so until he passed away at the age of 101.

If only we all can be so fortunate.

Walker and Leek resigned because of quality issues... I don't think so!

Well at least Ruger bought out the Marlin brand and are setting up to manufacture Marlins again. Sad what happened to Remington. However it has not only happened to gun companies, but to textile companies and shoe companies in America.

You are reaming the raceway before measuring? Or are you using an unreamed raceway to get your other measurements?

Butch

If I were to ream the raceway it wouldn’t really be a measure of remington quality.

But yes un-reamed... how true / out of line the two contact points on the raceway are is another factor but it’s normally not that bad because they wire discharge that at the same time.. but it can warp during heat treating. Given that the bolt has some slop in there it’s not as critical of a factor as the surfaces that are a direct part of the bolt firing stress conveyance path which are much, much more critical.

IF one screws with the raceway then you may as well re-thread, and surface everything because you probably didn’t make things “more” in-line.... than they were from the factory. The gauges only step by 5 ten thousands, and I align under 2 (that’s the stacked extreme I personally shoot for well under 1/10,000’s at each point)

Spot Shooter, I know Mike Walker passed a few years ago, but visiting with him at the Super Shoot he mentioned that they machined them from heat treat material. Maybe they don't do that any more, but it is the best and most cost effective way to do it. All of the aftermarket receivers as I know are machined from heat treated material.
Are you saying that Remington wire EDM their raceways? I know a very few of the late model clones do that.

it seems that if "most factory actions are 1-3thousandths off. then wouldn't that be a fair baseline?

If you like M700 rifles, you should love Bergaras. Very similar only better executed.

I have to agree.I have a Bergara B-14 Ridge.I'm not crazy about the stock,it's a little too slim for my liking,but the thing I do like is,it has a better trigger than the Remingtons,the action is smooth,feeds great,shoots great and was a perfect drop in fit for a Boyd's Pro Varmint stock that I had bedded for one of my Remington 700's.I can't really say it any better than the older Remington's,but I like it better than the later ones for sure.

A very fair baseline IMO. But are they?

According to the gunsmiths I have used in the past, yes, most factory rifles are. And that may very well be within specs.

When I had a new bbl installed on a 1958 M70 my gunsmith quoted me a price to include straightening up the action because he said most of the time those actions had a fair bit of runout and were crooked.

Say it ain't so, the revered pre 64 Model 70 actions have a fair amount of runout?

Most brands likely do. But few to none have had their numbers checked as much as a 700. Besides Mauser variations, all commercial rifle actions combined haven't likely had as many numbers of actions checked in a lathe or in a jig as the 700. Please think about that.

8 million actions & a boo boo or a thousand will turn up, but percentage wise the 700 has been proven it's worth & hardly an inkling of what helped bring down a 204 year old, & nearly a billion dollar company.

This^^^

Besides, in a hunting rifle how the barrel will shoot makes everything else pale. I've had crooked chambers shoot surprisingly well.

Gotta laugh.
Remington quality sucks.
Ruger, Ruger, Ruger.

They should be like Ruger.

The Ruger that is well known for building guns with crap barrels.

"But, but, they were sourced. Ruger didn't make the bad barrels.
Since they started making there own, they are good."

"Sure. But, for a number of years Ruger built rifles with those barrels
that weren't up to snuff. And if they didn't know it, it just as bad. And people paid good money for good guns."

Let's talk 45 Colt throats.
There is a cottage industry rebutting throats in those a guns.
A problem for 40 years. All Ruger need do is use the right size dealers,
and pitch them when wore down.

And, none of this means crap in the Remington conversation.
But let's be honest for a change.
And stick to facts, not our pussy little gripes about the
competition to our favorites.

Amazing where people put there self worth.

+1 one the Ruger barrels. Never came across a tack driving Ruger. I like Ruger revolvers

I have two Ruger's and both were sub MOA out of the box. I know there was a period when their barrels were bad, outsourced if I recall correctly.

Yes, I heard that too!

The last Remington I bought was a youth 700 in .243 Win. It was drizzling though but I shot it and put it in the case and when home. That night I took it out to see it already rusting. It has rust spots on it. I dont know why, the other gun didn't rust at all. I could not get better than 3" @ 100 yds with that gun. Another guy I know had the same gun and was not happy with the groups neither. I hope they are better now.

I have a DuPont 700 30-06, it has suffered so much bad weather and careless care, it begs the question, why bother with stainless.