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Posted By: dimecovers5 Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/13/21
I read Bob Brister often when he wrote a column for Field & Stream and I know I read a few things by Michael McIntosh, but other than those two I can't remember anyone else. Why is it that rifle writers were numerous and memorable to me growing up and not shotgun writers?
Elmer Keith wrote a book on shotguns.

Shotguns by Keith.
Posted By: BKinSD Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/13/21
Its unfortunate but I think its a void in the information, I agree with the OP. There's no one out there talking informatively about this and there sure should be.
Posted By: Sam_H Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/13/21
Don Zutz and John Brindle were good, still worth reading. O'Connor wrote a fair amount.
Posted By: dan_oz Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/13/21
To add to these Michael McIntosh, Mike Yardley, J E M Ruffer, Churchill, Stanbury. Probably think of more later
Posted By: Pappy348 Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/13/21
I ran into a lot of good info on the WWW recently while dealing with an issue with my O/U. That guy that pals around with Petzal is pretty good, and not too high-tone. Bourgailiy?

https://www.fieldandstream.com/authors/phil-bourjailiy/

Haviland has written some good stuff on reloading shotshells, and Mule Deer had a good one on hard shot not long ago, as well as a good book, Western Skies.
Posted By: wahoo Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/13/21
maybe it's that there is less material. after all, how can you wildcat a shotshell? look at how many articles you could write about cartridges, not to mention the old faithful, what's the best cartridge for whatever.

for that matter, i don't see a lot of stotgun related threads here. after all, the 12 and 20 account for the lion's share of the chamberings. 10, 16, 28, 410 far less useful.
Posted By: 300_savage Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/13/21
Think wahoo has a good point, but there's some good stuff out there. Shotguns by Keith, O'Connor's The Shotgun Book, Brister's Shotgunning: The Art and the Science and Mule Deer's Shotguns for Wingshooting are four of my favorites.
Posted By: Mule Deer Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/13/21
Originally Posted by Pappy348
I ran into a lot of good info on the WWW recently while dealing with an issue with my O/U. That guy that pals around with Petzal is pretty good, and not too high-tone. Bourgailiy?

https://www.fieldandstream.com/authors/phil-bourjailiy/

Haviland has written some good stuff on reloading shotshells, and Mule Deer had a good one on hard shot not long ago, as well as a good book, Western Skies.


Actually, I've published two books on the general subject. Western Skies is a collection of upland and waterfowl hunting stories published in various magazines, including Gray's Sporting Journal, Shooting Sportsman, Field & Stream and others.

In 1999 I also published Shotguns for Wingshooting, partly at the urging of Bob Brister, who though I should write more about shotguns. (We did some target and bird hunting together over the years, including my first trip to Argentina for ducks and doves.) While SFW was more technical, though also had quite a few stories to illustrate my points--and the publishing company liked the photos so much (which were both mine and Eileen's) that they turned it into a sort of coffee-table book, with LOTS of full-color photos.

They also priced it at $50, which not many hunters were going to pay back then. So it didn't sell well, and eventually Eileen bought the left-over copies for a really good price. We still have enough to sell it through riflesandrecipes.com for $26, including shipping--which is more like it.

But during those years I also learned that the shotgun writing field isn't nearly as broad as the rifle writing field, and didn't pay as well. Plus, it was already crowded with guys like Brister and Mike McIntosh. Both became good friends, and I learned a lot from them, one reason my research library has a 4-foot shelf of shotgunning books by Bob and Mike and others.

But I only write about shotguns occasionally anymore, even though I like them almost as much as rifles, and wingshooting perhaps even more than big game hunting. Recently my collection of shotguns has been increasing, partly because I've found some good deals--including a light hammer sidelock Sauer SxS 12 with 2-1/2" chambers, and a W.W. Greener boxlock ejector 12 SxS with damascus barrels. Am going to be doing an article on handloading for such old 12s in an upcoming Handloader, but that's one of maybe 1-2 shotgunning articles I do each year.
Posted By: RPK Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/13/21
Pick up the latest Double Gun Journal and read Ross Seyfried's article. The man knows shotguns
Originally Posted by Mule Deer
...But during those years I also learned that the shotgun writing field isn't nearly as broad as the rifle writing field, and didn't pay as well. Plus, it was already crowded with guys like Brister and Mike McIntosh. Both became good friends, and I learned a lot from them, one reason my research library has a 4-foot shelf of shotgunning books by Bob and Mike and others...

MD, could you elucidate a bit? I'm curious about the reasons for that.
Posted By: Mule Deer Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/13/21
My guess is 2-part:

First, as wahoo pointed out in his post, shotguns don't come in nearly as many different chamberings as rifles, which is one reason rifle loonies like to fool with a lot of different rifles.

Second, since about WWII the upland bird hunting in the U.S. has been generally going downhill, both due to fewer birds and places to hunt them. In the meantime big game populations have generally increased, especially whitetails and elk.

You also can't brag about half-inch groups from shotguns!
Posted By: cra1948 Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/13/21
You put a rifle on the bags and shoot five shots at a hundred yards... you have five holes to measure and you can evaluate the rifle, scope and cartridge and be happy or go back to the drawing board or reloading bench. If you want to evaluate a shotgun and load, look at all the holes you have to count, all those percentages in a 20" circle, 30" circle, 40" circle.... plus you have to replace your shooting chrony every shot unless you're very, very careful.
Posted By: gitem_12 Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/13/21
Bourjalily, Tapply, Bill Heavy, Brister, Page, Macintosh, Trueblood, Gene Hill, O''Connor, Carmichel, to name a few
Thanks. I was wondering if the declining populations and availability of bird hunting was a factor. Hadn't thought about the loony aspect but that sure makes sense. Guess I'm as guilty as any, I've owned a grand total of five shotguns in my entire life but long ago lost count of the number of rifles and handguns that have come and gone.
Posted By: 300_savage Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/13/21
I highly recommend Shotguns for Wingshooting Ive got one of the $50 copies, and it's a bit dog eared. At the current price, it's a bargain!
Posted By: Calhoun Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/13/21
Originally Posted by gitem_12
Bourjalily, Tapply, Bill Heavy, Brister, Page, Macintosh, Trueblood, Gene Hill, O''Connor, Carmichel, to name a few

Just picked up a copy of "A Hunter's Fireside Book" by Gene Hill a couple weeks ago in an antique store in West Yellowstone. I have to say I'm enjoying it very much.
Posted By: 300_savage Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/13/21
Does Bourjalily have any books published? I've come to appreciate his work a lot. As dry as it is in Eastern MT, reading about bird hunting may be as close as I get this year.
Maybe not all writers have much interest or knowledge of shotguns?
I haven't owned one since about 1978 and only had 2 shots in 1988 at a tossed soft drink can, but honestly have no interest in them nor any game they are used for. Right up there with spear guns for me.
Not offering criticism, not even qualified to do that, simply no interest at all, but I do appreciate the workmanship of a good double.
Posted By: Mule Deer Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/13/21
I took a look at my shotgun references, and a couple photos. The main hardcover books are in the first image, and among the classic references not mentioned so far are Burrard and Greener. There's also some great info in collections of gun reviews, such as Bruce Buck's book of columns from Shooting Sportsman. There should be a copy of Terry Wieland's Spanish Best in this lineup as well, but it's obviously decided to rest someplace else in the house

[Linked Image]

There's also a lot of good shotgun writing in magazines, especially Double Gun Journal, Shooting Sportsman and Gray's Sporting Journal, where Wieland has been the shooting columnist since the mid-1990s. Double Gun Journal not only publishes Ross Seyfried, but some other authors such as Sherman Bell, who's run some very interesting pressure experiments on older guns. I was one of the original staff writers for Shooting Sportsman when it started in the late 1980s, but eventually had to quit because (as noted earlier) rifle writing paid better. But I still do one now and then--had an article on drillings in a recent issue.

Used to have a much larger collection of all three magazines, but had to start thinning it out because they took up way too room. Kept the ones with the most interesting articles--at least to me. While I have a number of "modern" shotguns, these days am more interested in older doubles.

[Linked Image]
Posted By: RPK Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/13/21
Frances Sell wrote some good books on shotguns, as did Mr. Greener himself.
Posted By: Mule Deer Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/13/21
Yep--and the Gun Digest annuals are good source of material as well, especially the older ones, when John Amber was the editor.
Posted By: cra1948 Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/13/21
There's just not as much to write about with shotguns. A shotgun is like a golf club, if it fits you, and you swing it right, you'll hit with it. There's not much you can do to extend its effective range or accuracy. Yeah, I know, there's a whole cottage industry developed around selling supposedly high-tech screw in chokes to those gullible enough to think spending a hundred bucks or so on the latest, greatest will enable them to kill ducks another ten yards out, or jelly-head a gobbler another five. Truth is, those little round balls run out of steam pretty fast. Same with loading for them. If you want to tinker with miracle wads and different powders to see if you can beat factory loads, more power to you....live it up. There's really a very limited amount of performance improvement possible. Rifles, on the other hand.... put a new barrel on it, a different twist, throated for a specific bullet...a lot of fancy machine work that can be done to ensure shot to shot mechanical consistency. If you're tired of shooting it at 200 yards, stretch it out to 300, or 400 or spend some time and money and play with the big boys waayyy out there. There are so many things you can do with rifles (or handguns.) There are, in most places, year round hunting of some kind, there are all kinds of sport disciplines with rifled bores. At our club (all rifles and handguns) there are probably ten disciplines going on regularly. It's an unusual weekend when there aren't at least two or three events. With shotguns you can hunt birds, hunt ducks, or shoot clay targets. There's trap, skeet, sporting clays, 5-stand and FITSAC and their similarities are greater than their differences.

Don't get me wrong. I love shotguns and have at least one specialized shotgun for every use I have for a smoothbore. I have a couple that I consider really, really nice shotguns. Back when I would spend as much on a shotgun as my friends might on a snowmobile or motorcycle they thought I was crazy. Most of those snowmobiles and motorcycles went to the junkyard decades ago. I'm still enjoying the shotguns and, if necessary or desired, I could get a significant portion of my money back after having used them for years. But I get them out, use them, clean them and put them away. There's not a lot of tinkering to be done with them.

Besides, Elmer Fudd carried a shotgun.
My first shotgun was a model 37 Featherlight 20 gauge. I once hit a triple on a rising covey that flushed BEHIND me after I'd walked past. Wish I'd had a witness as I was 15 years old and nobody believed it. Next was a 1100 12 gauge which was not great but OK. I sold it before I was twenty.

After I'd learned about shotgun fit (Brister ) and also knowing I could never afford it done right I spent my time looking for sub $1000 guns that shot where I was looking. All Citoris were out for me much to my dismay. I once shouldered a Beretta 682 "greystone" that felt like it was part on my DNA, but was about double my budget at the time. I should have traded the 1976 Monte Carlo I was driving for the gun to the shop owner. Live n learn.

I pretty much gave up on a properly fit shotgun mostly because bird hunting was about 10 percent of what it was when I was a teenager so I went hard into ducks. I think this is why I never got into buying books on shotgunning---it was too upsetting.

All the guys I duck hunted with basically bought an 870 every year and threw it away at the end of the season and bought another in September. LOL I bought an 870 Special Purpose and actually cleaned it after a morning in the swamp. I can hit with it pretty well, but it feels like I'm swinging a lead pipe and I only tolerate it.

True Story on shotgun fit:
I shot Trap and Skeet every Saturday morning with an older guy that worked at the same gun shop I did. My mom would drop me off and he would get us to work before the store opened at 10:00 am I was 14-15 at the time. I had run 95-96 many times in Trap with one gun or another, but always choked at running 100 straight. A few years later I was home from my first year of college and went to the range with a girl I was trying to impress. I rented a cheap Winchester autoloader (1200, 1400?) anyway I never let on to the kid that pulled for me that I had done this before and he was stunned when I hit 25 ( what I had paid for ) and asked if I wanted to keep going. On the 100 shot and and hundred broken clays he was losing it! He ran into the club house and started recounting to everyone in earshot the newbie that busted 100 straight with a rented gun and cotton balls stuffed in his ears. I never let on but I learned that day that cheap Winchester fit me and I found one for sale at Roses Dime Store ca. 1982 and bought it for about $125 on sale. It jammed constantly on anything I ran in it so I sold it frustration. Have got two 870's now and still hope I come across a Greystone one day. And if I do it will go everywhere with me rain or shine!
Posted By: Mule Deer Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/14/21
cra1948,

[quote] There's not much you can do to extend its effective range or accuracy. Yeah, I know, there's a whole cottage industry developed around selling supposedly high-tech screw in chokes to those gullible enough to think spending a hundred bucks or so on the latest, greatest will enable them to kill ducks another ten yards out, or jelly-head a gobbler another five. Truth is, those little round balls run out of steam pretty fast. Same with loading for them. If you want to tinker with miracle wads and different powders to see if you can beat factory loads, more power to you....live it up. There's really a very limited amount of performance improvement possible. [quote]

To a certain extent I agree with you, especially about magic chokes. But have been experimenting considerably with newer shot since the mid-90s, and it makes far more difference than chokes.
Posted By: luv2safari Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/14/21
Originally Posted by Mule Deer
I took a look at my shotgun references, and a couple photos. The main hardcover books are in the first image, and among the classic references not mentioned so far are Burrard and Greener. There's also some great info in collections of gun reviews, such as Bruce Buck's book of columns from Shooting Sportsman. There should be a copy of Terry Wieland's Spanish Best in this lineup as well, but it's obviously decided to rest someplace else in the house

[Linked Image]

There's also a lot of good shotgun writing in magazines, especially Double Gun Journal, Shooting Sportsman and Gray's Sporting Journal, where Wieland has been the shooting columnist since the mid-1990s. Double Gun Journal not only publishes Ross Seyfried, but some other authors such as Sherman Bell, who's run some very interesting pressure experiments on older guns. I was one of the original staff writers for Shooting Sportsman when it started in the late 1980s, but eventually had to quit because (as noted earlier) rifle writing paid better. But I still do one now and then--had an article on drillings in a recent issue.

Used to have a much larger collection of all three magazines, but had to start thinning it out because they took up way too room. Kept the ones with the most interesting articles--at least to me. While I have a number of "modern" shotguns, these days am more interested in older doubles.

[Linked Image]


Bell debunked a lot of "common wisdom" regarding pressures and chamber length. Even today, people don't want to hear it; it goes against their years of wrong-thinking.
grin

I realize the limitations of writing for a magazine. Your recent article on drillings covered a lot of ground in an entertaining way.

Rifles have a long history of being the shooting star in the minds of Americans, with shotguns being the more utilitarian tool. It seems that the Europeans and Brits had a bigger love affair with shotguns and made many as works of art.
Posted By: 338Rules Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/14/21
5nDime : You’re breaking my heart ❤️
What happened with the girl ? Did she Out Shoot you ?

I consider myself a shotgun loonie, statistics are so much more esoteric when analyzing patterns, rather than the aggregate average of a sequence of individual shots.

I’m still looking for a shotgun smith that can “convert” one of my 20 ga Red Labels to 16 gauge , and lightly backbore it of course.
Weight is perfect for that perfect Upland hunting 16 gauge. Bore is not much different from a back bored 20 to a standard 16 , So I Prefer to retain the 20 ga chokes if possible, but not mandatory I suppose if they end up not too tight.
Skeet 20 would become Light Modified 16, If You Follow.

Along the same lines , I have a couple of 12 ga Express barrels that want their forcing cones lengthened, and some parabolic backboring. Again retaining the factory RemChokes & Threading

The choke becomes a tuner for the long full barrel length parabolic backbore choke.

Loony Enough ?
Originally Posted by Mule Deer
cra1948,

[quote] There's not much you can do to extend its effective range or accuracy. Yeah, I know, there's a whole cottage industry developed around selling supposedly high-tech screw in chokes to those gullible enough to think spending a hundred bucks or so on the latest, greatest will enable them to kill ducks another ten yards out, or jelly-head a gobbler another five. Truth is, those little round balls run out of steam pretty fast. Same with loading for them. If you want to tinker with miracle wads and different powders to see if you can beat factory loads, more power to you....live it up. There's really a very limited amount of performance improvement possible. [quote]

To a certain extent I agree with you, especially about magic chokes. But have been experimenting considerably with newer shot since the mid-90s, and it makes far more difference than chokes.


I don't claim to be an expert, but I've read what some experts have written. As mentioned, fit to the user is important for most of us, but someone really skilled and talented with a shotgun could borrow yours, mine, and anybody else's and embarrass most of us.

I think it was Brister, probably among others, who preached the importance of shot string and did some testing that took a lot more planning and effort (and risk) than most are willing to put in. Mule Deer has written about the importance of good quality shot for good patterns although cheap shot can be beneficial for scattered short range loads.

Optimizing the combination of shot type, shot size, choke, etc. is the way to optimize distance and effectiveness. Don't think that's all that different than trying to take a rifle shooting 1.5" groups and find what will make it shoot sub MOA groups. Just not as many people have that interest in shotgun optimization as someone else mentioned.
Posted By: Mule Deer Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/14/21
That's pretty loony!

Though Eileen and I just spend a couple hours weighing various 20-gauges we own, along with measuring the chokes, etc. The daughter of some of our old friends wants to start bird hunting (we helped her get a first deer a couple years ago), and beforehand we had her shoot several of our rifles--and let her choose her favorite. Which of course probably works better than somebody choosing one for her.

We're going to do the same thing ASAP with various guns, along with some shooting instruction. Eileen is particularly good at that with other women.
A couple other thoughts.
1. Several years ago Tom Roster did a lot of work with steel shot and chokes that was I guess proprietary that I used to see in state game and fish agency waterfowl reg publications. Apparently he compiled data from thousands of shots.

2. The woman who won the Olympic gold medal for trap, which is international trap (targets at around 60 mph compared to around 40 mph for American trap), went 125 for 125 in the two days of qualifying for the finals. IIRC her closest competitor missed at least 3 or 4 (perhaps 5) targets in the qualifying round. I imagine a lot of work went into finding the right combination of choke and load components that she used.

Posted By: 338Rules Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/14/21
Fit is everything .

If it fits right, and you only have to point and hit the switch, you won’t feel the recoil.

Move, Mount, Shoot. Don’t Stop Swinging to admire the break.
Just Paint out your target with the shot string

Aiming is for rifles, and has its place.
Posted By: DigitalDan Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/14/21
There be more mechanics that artists in the shooting world. The former tinker with their toys while the latter use a broad brush, active imagination and a vision unrestrained.

Put another way, if Dirty Harry carried a shotgun he wouldn’t have asked the punks if they felt lucky.
Posted By: dan_oz Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/14/21
Originally Posted by 338Rules
Fit is everything .

If it fits right, and you only have to point and hit the switch, you won’t feel the recoil.

Move, Mount, Shoot. Don’t Stop Swinging to admire the break.
Just Paint out your target with the shot string

Aiming is for rifles, and has its place.


I think it is possible to do too much reading and thinking about how to do it. It took me a while to realise that.

My old man was a terrifically good wing shot, to the extent that he would do it with a .22, just for giggles, because a shotgun was too easy. He never could explain it to me though, or at least in a way that made sense to me. He would just see the bird and shoot it. I don't think he ever gave it a moment's thought.

Meantime, as a kid I would read about various theories on lead, and yet on any shot where I had time to think about it I'd likely miss. On a shot where I had no time to think, such as a bird erupting under my feet and catching me out, I'd have no such difficulty.

It took me a while to put two and two together, and that was helped by another bloke, who had been a champion shot and could also explain how to do it (the two don't always go together), and from reading Ruffer, and that was that I was missing the easy ones because I was thinking about leading - overthinking it in fact. This bloke (and Ruffer) both pointed out that your brain is perfectly capable of doing this subconsciously, so long as you don't let your conscious thinking get in the way. He also showed me the importance of gun fit and a smooth moving mount, just as you say, and firing as soon as the buttplate hits your shoulder. Forget about lead, and your subconscious will attend to it for you.

That is how I do it. I don't think about lead at all. I focus on the bird - in fact on the head of the bird if I can see it, or on the clay, and stay focussed on that as the gun comes up, hits my shoulder and goes bang. I don't think about anything, least of all lead. I don't look at the barrels, or anything else but the bird or clay. I have shot a good deal of sporting clays, as well and gamebirds, pest birds, ducks and ground game, and a bit of trap too. Won my share of prizes as well. This is what works for me.
Posted By: JD45 Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/14/21
Originally Posted by RPK
Pick up the latest Double Gun Journal and read Ross Seyfried's article. The man knows shotguns


True.And handguns, and rifles,and bullet casting, plus a muzzleloader and flintlock expert. Also, a PH in Africa, and a World IPSC Champion.

We got about 10% of what he could have written before he stopped. I miss reading his stuff.
Posted By: 338Rules Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/14/21
Not recommending you try this without proper backstop, but
.22Lr has a very similar trajectory to each individual shot in flight.
MV is very similar, BC not all that much different
Posted By: Dixie_Dude Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/14/21
I shot my shotgun on paper with all 3 chokes. The improved cylinder choke actually made a donut large enough to miss a clay or bird, about 8" in the center with no pellets, (Was testing with #8 shot standard shells. I bought 4 Briley choke tubes (longer than the original). They made perfect patterns. I now have extended choke tubes in cylinder, ic, light mod, mod, and full. I shoot much better in sporting clays with extended choke tube than with the standard short choke tubes. It does make a difference.

Some manufacturers are now making their choke tube longer with better pattern results.

Idea is to get the most pellets in a 30" circle at various yards, like 20,30, and 40 yards. Enough pellets to make a clean break or kill. For me, the results were cylinder for 15 yards, improved cylinder for 20 yards, light mod for 25 yards, modified for 30 yards, improved mod for 35 yards, and full choke for 40 yards. Extra full chokes try to extend the range to 50 yards for turkey hunting.

Anyway, good shooting, if you can find shells and ammo.
Posted By: 338Rules Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/14/21
DoubleD look at the bore to choke transition with the flush choke snugly threaded
I’m guessing it won’t be a smooth transition like with the Brileys ; Hence the donut blown pattern.

Send a picture with your warranty complaint, maybe they can resolve it, or not.
Sometimes a flush IC is all you want to Hunt with, so it is worth pursuing.

What shotgun is it ?

Bailey chokes are top tier, but not always perfect. I got a set once that needed the threads cleaned up
Posted By: Pappy348 Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/14/21
Originally Posted by Mule Deer
cra1948,

[quote] There's not much you can do to extend its effective range or accuracy. Yeah, I know, there's a whole cottage industry developed around selling supposedly high-tech screw in chokes to those gullible enough to think spending a hundred bucks or so on the latest, greatest will enable them to kill ducks another ten yards out, or jelly-head a gobbler another five. Truth is, those little round balls run out of steam pretty fast. Same with loading for them. If you want to tinker with miracle wads and different powders to see if you can beat factory loads, more power to you....live it up. There's really a very limited amount of performance improvement possible. [quote]

To a certain extent I agree with you, especially about magic chokes. But have been experimenting considerably with newer shot since the mid-90s, and it makes far more difference than chokes.


I played around a fair bit this past Spring with TSS in a .410 as well as a 20, and for certain the results on the pattern board are pretty impressive. These were my first real pattern tests after slinging shot at stuff for 50+ years, and I learned a good bit, including that my new O/U had considerable divergence between the upper and lower barrels, perhaps 8” at 40 yards. After some on-line research, I discovered that it’s far from uncommon, even with much more expensive guns than mine, and the solutions are troublesome and/or expensive. I’m actually fortunate in that my gun’s barrels at least put the shot on the same vertical line, and 8” is not as bad as many. I’m going to try futzing around with loads and chokes to improve things, and am also going to try a Fastfire 3 on clays next week. I used a 3moa model during the Turkey season, but have an 8moa on it now. I like the gun otherwise, and hope to be able to keep it. I’ll be using lead of course, not the precious-metal loads I was testing last Spring.

BTW, in case Ms. Clarke didn’t tell you; you now have one less copy of your shotgun book. I have Western Skies here somewhere too, unless one of my children made off with it.
Originally Posted by Dixie_Dude
I shot my shotgun on paper with all 3 chokes. The improved cylinder choke actually made a donut large enough to miss a clay or bird, about 8" in the center with no pellets, (Was testing with #8 shot standard shells. I bought 4 Briley choke tubes (longer than the original). They made perfect patterns. I now have extended choke tubes in cylinder, ic, light mod, mod, and full. I shoot much better in sporting clays with extended choke tube than with the standard short choke tubes. It does make a difference.

Some manufacturers are now making their choke tube longer with better pattern results.

Idea is to get the most pellets in a 30" circle at various yards, like 20,30, and 40 yards. Enough pellets to make a clean break or kill. For me, the results were cylinder for 15 yards, improved cylinder for 20 yards, light mod for 25 yards, modified for 30 yards, improved mod for 35 yards, and full choke for 40 yards. Extra full chokes try to extend the range to 50 yards for turkey hunting.

Anyway, good shooting, if you can find shells and ammo.



The reason the longer choke tubes are throwing better patterns is tapering the constriction of the shot cup over a
longer distance in the newer long choke tubes reduces shot deformation. This is not a new revelation, as the shot charge constriction spread out over a longer distance in the barrel was well know in the early 1900's into the WWII years.

When "Ballistic Products" was a fledgling company in the 1970's they provided loading data in every catalog. They had a L.C Smith "SXS" that would shoot killing patterns on duck loads out to 70 yards. This was still during the lead shot days. To the load testers this was just amazing and of course had to find out why. The inside of the barrels were tapered very gradually before the shot charge reached the choke.

I have a 1901 built Parker Brothers side by side 12 gauge build on a #2 frame that throws just wonderful patterns. The barrels are choked "IC" and "LM"....perfect for sporting clays. You guessed it the inside of the barrels are tapered as I had the inside of the barrels measured.
Posted By: Mule Deer Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/14/21
doctor_Encore,

Yep, a tapered bore can make an definite difference. Probably my favorite upland gun is a pre-WWII Sauer 12-gauge SxS that has tight chokes (like many back then) but patterns beautifully with anything from spreader to long-range loads, including Bismuth. It has tapered bores.

Might also add that I have a local friend who's never patterned a shotgun in his life, whether to see where the pattern hits for him, or how the shot spreads/holes/etc. Instead he buys a shotgun and takes it hunting. If he can't hit anything with it, he sells the gun and buys another--even when he buys guns with adjustable buttstocks, as many have these days.
Posted By: Fraser Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/14/21
Perhaps I should start make this a new post but this has been such an interesting thread with people who know more about shotguns than I do I will ask here.

I was out of town last week and the gun shop I was in had a Webley & Scott 700 SxS. This particular one is a 12 gauge with English stock, IC and IM chokes, double triggers and a splinter forend. Best of all it fits me better than any shotgun I've ever shouldered.

There are only two reasons I haven't bought it yet - it's expensive (compared to my usual budget) and I don't really know anything about Webley & Scott shotguns. Does anyone have advice about these guns?
Posted By: Mule Deer Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/14/21
Webley & Scott is an old and well-respected name in the shotgun world. In fact they're still in business, but in a different way these days.

They not only made their own guns, but their boxlock actions (some barreled by W-R, some not) and even complete guns were used by many smaller gunmakers in England. W&S guns were also sold with other major companies names on 'em. Two of the older British guns Eileen and I have, for instance, were at least made on W & S actions. If the gun you found is still tight, including the barrel soldering, it will work fine.

A lot of this "cottage industry" centered around the British gunmaking center of Birmingham, and is covered well in BIRMINGHAM GUNMAKERS, a very fine history with lots of great color photos, by my friend Douglas Tate. (You can see my copy in the horizontal stack of books in the photo of my bookshelf.)

One other aspect you might check out is chamber length. A lot of older British 12s had 2-1/2" chambers, but many of those chambers were later lengthened to 2-3/4". This isn't as big a deal, either way, as some people like to make out of it, but it's something to consider. In general, older guns shouldn't be used with higher-pressure modern ammo, but a lot depends on the individual gun and brand. Both our W&S action guns had their chambers already lengthened when we bought them, and work fine. There are factory loads available, if needed, and it's easy to handload for them--the subject of my upcoming Handloader article.

Posted By: gitem_12 Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/14/21
Originally Posted by Calhoun
Originally Posted by gitem_12
Bourjalily, Tapply, Bill Heavy, Brister, Page, Macintosh, Trueblood, Gene Hill, O''Connor, Carmichel, to name a few

Just picked up a copy of "A Hunter's Fireside Book" by Gene Hill a couple weeks ago in an antique store in West Yellowstone. I have to say I'm enjoying it very much.


Hill is one of my favorite authors. I also dvise you to pick up a couple George Bird Evans', Burton Spiller and William harndon Foster books
Posted By: Mule Deer Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/14/21
Captain Charles Askins (Askins the Elder) wrote some good stuff on shotguns and bird hunting as well. If you can find a copy of his 1931 book GAME BIRD SHOOTING it not only has a lot to say about shotguns, dogs, etc. but is great look at what upland bird hunting and waterfowling was like in America during the early 20th century.
Posted By: 10gaugemag Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/14/21
Tagged for future reference on some books that seem of interest.
Posted By: battue Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/14/21
No offense to the writers, however “Shooters”on shotguns…. You tube
Posted By: Calhoun Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/14/21
Originally Posted by gitem_12
Originally Posted by Calhoun
Originally Posted by gitem_12
Bourjalily, Tapply, Bill Heavy, Brister, Page, Macintosh, Trueblood, Gene Hill, O''Connor, Carmichel, to name a few

Just picked up a copy of "A Hunter's Fireside Book" by Gene Hill a couple weeks ago in an antique store in West Yellowstone. I have to say I'm enjoying it very much.

Hill is one of my favorite authors. I also dvise you to pick up a couple George Bird Evans', Burton Spiller and William harndon Foster books

Thanks for the suggestion. I usually go for the more technical stuff, but this reminds me a lot of the articles I used to read out of outdoor magazines as a kid. Though from the timeline.. maybe there were articles I read back then. grin
I'll watch for those books as well.
Posted By: Bob_B257 Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/14/21
Many good Writers mentioned above.
Very glad that R.R. mentioned Tom Roster. He covered a lot of ground in his CONSEP study for waterfowl and I believe he worked with Bob Brister early on. (Maybe Mule Deer can confirm)
I found Sherman Bell a very short time after reading a lot of Toms work.
Both dispelled a number of myths in their research and their articles were a very good read for a shotgun nut. (Just like Bob Brister and his book and articles)
Later I stumbled on Neil Winston on another forum. His work on shotgun pattern analysis for Trap Shooting is very well documented and to my knowledge few have put in the same volume of work testing shell/gun theories or ideas. Neil passed recently and he handed the torch to a good friend who has his test equipment, and reports when he can on new shells or combinations.
Dr AC Jones wrote a long book on the subject and built a very cool program for pattern measurement by digital analysis. Its very hard to get a copy of that to run on a newer computer but it gives good results if you can stand fussing with the tech side on the computer. This work along with Neils really showed me the risk of analysis of examples of one or two when looking at shotgun shells on paper or grease. (as a kid we were frequently enlisted to "Count Pellets" on a single pattern paper)(but our Adult Idols were unaware of just how high the variability in a shotgun is shot to shot for speed and pattern)
Mule Deer offered some interesting insight here on a much older post about the quality of some of the analysis in some older writing.
The ones that put the time in to do research and show the details always seem to be more interesting.
BUT it seems to still come down to the Nut behind the trigger keeping the eye on the prize and the rock on the stock for most shots in decoy range.
Thanks to those above who provided a good list of written material.
Posted By: battue Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/14/21
If not already mentioned, on how to use them:Chris Batha-written and you tube-John Bidwell, Gill Ash- written and video, Dan Carlisle, Ben Hurstwith-video, John Whooley-video..
Posted By: olgrouser Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/14/21
Originally Posted by dimecovers5
True Story on shotgun fit:

I shot Trap and Skeet every Saturday morning with an older guy that worked at the same gun shop I did. My mom would drop me off and he would get us to work before the store opened at 10:00 am I was 14-15 at the time. I had run 95-96 many times in Trap with one gun or another, but always choked at running 100 straight. A few years later I was home from my first year of college and went to the range with a girl I was trying to impress. I rented a cheap Winchester autoloader (1200, 1400?) anyway I never let on to the kid that pulled for me that I had done this before and he was stunned when I hit 25 ( what I had paid for ) and asked if I wanted to keep going. On the 100 shot and and hundred broken clays he was losing it! He ran into the club house and started recounting to everyone in earshot the newbie that busted 100 straight with a rented gun and cotton balls stuffed in his ears. I never let on but I learned that day that cheap Winchester fit me and I found one for sale at Roses Dime Store ca. 1982 and bought it for about $125 on sale. It jammed constantly on anything I ran in it so I sold it frustration. Have got two 870's now and still hope I come across a Greystone one day. And if I do it will go everywhere with me rain or shine!


Great story! Thanks. The Beretta O/U 20 gauge 686s are where I stopped my search for fit though I confess an AYA and a London Best Wm Evans reside in the safe because one needs a proper double somedays. wink

"Hill is one of my favorite authors. I also advise you to pick up a couple George Bird Evans', Burton Spiller and William Harden Foster books"

Especially if you're a dedicated grouse hunter!
Posted By: Mule Deer Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/14/21
[quote=Bob_B257]Many good Writers mentioned above.
Very glad that R.R. mentioned Tom Roster. He covered a lot of ground in his CONSEP study for waterfowl and I believe he worked with Bob Brister early on. (Maybe Mule Deer can confirm)[quote]

Tom Roster is one reason I recommended SHOOTING SPORTSMAN magazine as a good resource. He has been writing the ammo column there for many years now.
Posted By: Mule Deer Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/14/21
As far as "shooting" versus "gun" books, it's hard to beat Brister's classic SHOTGUNNING: THE ART AND THE SCIENCE for a combination of both guns and shooting information. But aside from the authors Battue mentioned, British author Michael Yardley has also written some very good stuff on shooting technique, since he's a long-time Sporting Clays instructor/coach, including a book. I shot with Mike some years ago on a SC course in California, and he's very good at practicing what he preaches.

That said, shooting clays is somewhat different than shooting birds. Among the greatest "teachers" of bird-shooting technique is a trip to some place like Argentina, where the bird shooting is essentially unlimited. As I noted earlier, my first trip to Argentina was made with Bob Brister (and Grits Gresham!) in 1996. I'd already shot clays with Bob, with of course some suggestions on his part, but learned far more down there.

As he noted, you can stand in one place shooting the same basic angles for an hour or two, until you absolutely get them down--because you won't be able to load your shotgun fast enough to keep up with the birds going by. That sort of thing helps far more with gamebird shooting than any amount of clay-bird shooting. Of course, it also costs more than clays!

Have since not only been back to Argentina but also did some similar shooting in South Africa. RSA has an even larger variety of birds, and the same essentially unlimited shooting, and some of their birds are even more difficult targets. One of the guys I shot with in Africa claimed he averaged 90% on Argentine doves--and only hit one of the African Rock Pigeons with his first box of shells. They fly far faster than they appear to be, and are even more erratic in flight than any doves I've hunted. Anybody who does 30% on them is a good shot!



Originally Posted by Mule Deer
doctor_Encore,

Yep, a tapered bore can make an definite difference. Probably my favorite upland gun is a pre-WWII Sauer 12-gauge SxS that has tight chokes (like many back then) but patterns beautifully with anything from spreader to long-range loads, including Bismuth. It has tapered bores.

Might also add that I have a local friend who's never patterned a shotgun in his life, whether to see where the pattern hits for him, or how the shot spreads/holes/etc. Instead he buys a shotgun and takes it hunting. If he can't hit anything with it, he sells the gun and buys another--even when he buys guns with adjustable buttstocks, as many have these days.


MD

Only the hard core shotgunners, competitive clay shooters and a few hunters spend time at the pattern board.

All will sight in a rifle cause we have too, the importance of time spent at the pattern board has never been encouraged.
Posted By: Mule Deer Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/14/21
Doc,

Well, in Montana it was somewhat "encouraged" when I started out shooting/hunting--though the most common "pattern board" was an empty 12-ounce can on top of a wooden fence-post at an undetermined range. If the can fell off the fencepost (and had more than one hole) then the gun was good to go!

Might also mention again (since it's a story I've told more than once before in print) that my paternal grandmother was a hard-core meat hunter, and otherwise tough woman who homesteaded by herself in central Montana right after WWI. She apparently NEVER owned a shotgun, instead wingshooting birds with her Winchester pump .22. But in that country, back then, they were mostly sage grouse, which are pretty big--and not generally taken at acute angles.

But apparently she eventually did become acquainted with famous handgun shooter Ed McGivern, who was also from Lewistown. Aside from homesteading, she also taught country school after she married the Norwegian homesteader on the adjoining claim. After he died in the middle of the Depression, she eventually worked her way up to superintendent of schools for Fergus County--and during that period Ed McGivern gave shooting demonstrations for the school. My father remembered attending them regularly. Imagine that today!
Posted By: gnoahhh Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/15/21
My LC Smith Long Range gun, 1923 vintage 32" with 3" chambers- the 3rd one Smith ever made- has very weird bores. Ahead of the forcing cones the bores only measure .705" and stay that way until 6" from the muzzles where the chokes constrict .040 in the right barrel and .045 in the left. Weird. To say it throws tight patterns is an understatement, as proven on the pattern board. The result is quite dead geese even with "light" loads of 1 1/8oz #2 Bisthmus @1250fps, due to goodly numbers of pellet strikes. (I load them in 2 3/4" AA hulls.) The downside is you gotta be dead on when you slap the trigger, not much wiggle room. It did force me to up my game accordingly. I've knocked geese ass-over-tin cups at ridiculously long distances with it and with that load. I refuse to subject it to "modern" 3" magnum loads of any kind.

I was told once it mimics Bert Becker's boring techniques he used in Super Foxes. Dunno for a fact.
Posted By: Mule Deer Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/15/21
Interesting!

One of the reasons so many older doubles are bored/choked the way they are is, of course, the cardboard/felt wads used back then--long before plastic shotcups/wads were invented.

My 10-gauge is a Spanish gun, made by one of the very good companies that went under during the Diarm deal in the 1980s. Of course it's choked tight (the reason I don't use steel opr other hard shot) but it knocks the snot out of geese at long ranges with modern "soft" non-toxic shot, whether Bismuth or Ballistic Products ITX-10.
Posted By: battue Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/15/21
I agree that clays for the most part are somewhat different than shooting Birds on the wing...Somewhat being relative. Walkup shooting of Pheasants, Grouse and Quail are for the most part different. Doves...Not so much in that Doves are much like clays in that as you said you can set up for them....Almost every Dove opportunity can be duplicated on a clays course, and you can stand in one place and shoot the same target over and over, until you think you have it down. Which in fact is how many of the top clays shooters practice. The average sporting clays shooter goes and shoots all the stations. While most of the top guns take a flat and shoot the same target for all 250 or until that accomplish their standard. Which may be 10 to 20 in a row. Yes, there will be slightly different variation with Doves..One may be higher one lower...but a quartering outgoing, incoming or crosser is much the same...Dove or clay.

More than once have posted a video of Digweed shooting Pigeons and Crows at distances most think can't be done.

Have been around enough top guns to know that most wouldn't want to bet against them in the fields. One has taken 5 out of a wild Quail covey rise more than once. Pheasants to him were much the same as shooting them in a box.

Rudy Etchen stories in the field are the stuff of legend..And I live and shoot with and around those that watched him often. When he had to plug an 870 he could make 5 sound like it wasn't... ​and he missed infrequently.. He was another that could make a Wild Quail wish it had never taken wing.

Know a couple old live Pigeon shooters, that still today can rack up a score on clays. There are still some live Bird shoots around here, and ZZ Birds are gathering a following.

Most of those I mentioned are Brits, and clays or driven they know the game...If one looks, they are on You Tube doing it..

Great rifle shooters are made by pulling the trigger...There is little difference when it comes to shooting a shotgun..."The Natural" was a make believe movie.
Posted By: Mule Deer Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/15/21
Battue,

[quote] Almost every Dove opportunity can be duplicated on a clays course, and you can stand in one place and shoot the same target over and over, until you think you have it down. Which in fact is how many of the top clays shooters practice. The average sporting clays shooter goes and shoots all the stations. While most of the top guns take a flat and shoot the same target for all 250 or until that accomplish their standard. Which may be 10 to 20 in a row. Yes, there will be slightly different variation with Doves..One may be higher one lower...but a quartering outgoing, incoming or crosser is much the same...Dove or clay." [quote]

I have shot more than enough Sporting Clays to know "most of the top guns take a flat and shoot the same target for all 250 or until that accomplish their standard." In fact, back when I was writing my shotgun book I shot numerous "flats" of various gauges at the local SC range, testing different shotguns.

But since you've never shot birds in Argentina (or apparently other places then locally) you obviously don't understand what I'm talking about. Even in Argentina the birds vary from the common eared dove (very much like mourning doves in size and flight pattern) to two kinds of wild pigeons, and parakeets and parrots. They're all different sizes and fly in different ways, and will be encountered when shooting the same area. South Africa not only has rock pigeons but several kinds of doves of various sizes, which can all appear, randomly, while shooting the same field. It's NOT the same as shooting clays.

Then there are ducks and geese in both Argentina and Africa--which can often be encountered while shooting upland birds. The ducks alone in Argentina vary from teal to "mallard-sized" ducks--but they're not only both puddle ducks and divers but "tree ducks," all of which fly in varied ways.

There's also a wide variety of upland birds, hunted not just by walking up (with dogs or not) anywhere from open country to cover much like typical ruffed grouse cover. Have hunted various species of francolin in Africa from thick riverbottoms (where during the bird hunting I've jumped animals from bushbuck to kudu to leopard) to cropland where the flushed birds range from smaller francolin to wild guinea fowl as wild as pheasants but almost as big as sage grouse.

It's all FAR more varied than anything I've seen in North America--where I have not only bird-hunted from Old Mexico to Alaska and the Northwest Territories, but live in a state where (even if we don't count doves and turkeys) there are eight species of upland birds, from Huns to sage grouse.

As Bob Brister pointed out many years ago, when I first started shooting with him, clays are far more predictable (and hence easy to hit) than wild birds. And he shot plenty of both.

Posted By: battue Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/15/21
Agree they are more predictable, but easier to hit? Maybe, but often times not...And if you don't understand that, then your clay shooting is limited..

Haven't been to Argentina or even outside the States shooting...However, have been on multi day Dove hunts were there were 500 to 1000 trying to get into the field..Not Argentina numbers, but enough to get the idea. Then there were Pigeons...here in America of all places....where there were no limits and enough again to get the idea..

Fortunate to have hunted Wild Quail in Georgia...Only America, I know...But 15 to 20 Coveys morning and the same in the afternoon was interesting.

Addition...And we can't forget that for perhaps 40 years I chased Ruffed Grouse to the extreme..30 to 40 flushes a day in the good times..Again only here in America...Forgot again...Woodcock for the last 5 years or so...some days when you hit the flight..100 Birds up in front of the Dogs...You should by now know where.


Congrats on your varied experiences shooting...but you are far from unique or special in that regard.

One more addition...The Sporting Clay game today is an altogether different game than when Brister brought the game here..I think he would like it more than a little...And as an aside, I was sitting next to him and talking about detached retinas and shooting... He then got up and walked to shoot for what was probably his last win...His words to me as he left..."Don't get old."

You should know Gerry Quinn also....
Posted By: Mule Deer Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/15/21
Oh, I know I'm far from unique. But have hunted wild birds in at least 14 states, half a dozen Canadian provinces and territories, and at least five other countries on a couple other continents. Don't know how many species of gamebirds that involved, but lots more than the locations. Have fired over 1000 rounds on some of those days.

One thing I learned long ago is that shooting clays starts to bore the schidt out of me after a certain number, whether skeet, trap or Sporting Clays. But then different strokes for different folks. And I tend to believe Bob Brister's opinion on clay shooting more than yours.
Does anybody remember a small shotgun maker in KY or TN by the name of Hatfield that made smaller gauge double guns? This would have been ca. 1977
Posted By: battue Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/15/21
You should value his opinion...Shame he can't tell you what he thinks of how the game has evolved today...Which may be a different opinion.

Anyway, I'm always open to decent discussion...Until someone starts with the smart azzz replies...I figured it was coming, because it wasn't the first time I've seen it..

I told you a long time ago...there are more than a few here that kiss your azzzz...I'm not one of them...

Addition: And to be fair, I appreciate most of what you pen..and have pasted it more than once on the fire.However, when you start with the wise azz I’ve seen it all comments, and others lack experience, don’t think you are immune from the same in return.

Posted By: gnoahhh Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/15/21
Shotgun shooting, whether it's live birds or clay birds, is pretty subjective. We all bring personal experiences to the table in discussions of such, and that's what makes it all so interesting. What works for me in my neck of the woods probably won't for Joe Blow 2000 miles away. What's important is to keep an open mind and acknowledge each other's prowess and assimilate that which fits into our personal requirements and politely eschew the rest.
Posted By: 338Rules Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/15/21
Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Oh, I know I'm far from unique. But have hunted wild birds in at least 14 states, half a dozen Canadian provinces and territories, and at least five other countries on a couple other continents. Don't know how many species of gamebirds that involved, but lots more than the locations. Have fired over 1000 rounds on some of those days.

One thing I learned long ago is that shooting clays starts to bore the schidt out of me after a certain number, whether skeet, trap or Sporting Clays. But then different strokes for different folks. And I tend to believe Bob Brister's opinion on clay shooting more than yours.


I think this variety of game hunting experience is why I enjoy your writing so much. I could never match your field time on the species available. Even now when I’m retired !

I know exactly what you’re saying about clay targets becoming mundane. Nothing puts me to sleep quicker than American Trap singles, or Handicap with the pre-mounted gun. Doubles is a little livelier, but again American Skeet gets a little ritualistic. International low gun style is a bunch more stimulating. Dynamic mount & swing plus faster clays

The thing with clays is that after they leave the thrower, they are decelerating.
Posted By: 10gaugemag Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/15/21
Originally Posted by 338Rules
Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Oh, I know I'm far from unique. But have hunted wild birds in at least 14 states, half a dozen Canadian provinces and territories, and at least five other countries on a couple other continents. Don't know how many species of gamebirds that involved, but lots more than the locations. Have fired over 1000 rounds on some of those days.

One thing I learned long ago is that shooting clays starts to bore the schidt out of me after a certain number, whether skeet, trap or Sporting Clays. But then different strokes for different folks. And I tend to believe Bob Brister's opinion on clay shooting more than yours.

The thing with clays is that after they leave the thrower, they are decelerating.


Exactly. Birds can and do accelerate.
Posted By: battue Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/15/21
You think a clay that reaches a height of 60 feet is not accelerating as it starts on the downward path?

Then it may get thrown from the trap at warp speed on edge , and you need to break it before it is gone out of range. Where you can break it, it may be little more than a blur.
Posted By: 338Rules Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/15/21
I remember shooting a Straight on a battue long crosser pair presentation. Breezy day
They didn’t open until they were about to dive, Modified chokes, Nitro 27s 7-1/2s Nothin but dust

Sprinting teals are fairly predictable, again they pause at the top for a cherry pick presentation,
or an aggressive swing through coming down.

Great practice, just sometimes repetitious , and ungrooveable ie minis out of the sun at blistering speed ...
Posted By: 338Rules Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/15/21
Originally Posted by dimecovers5
Does anybody remember a small shotgun maker in KY or TN by the name of Hatfield that made smaller gauge double guns? This would have been ca. 1977


Google tells me that they sourced them from Turkey, at least in the 2000’s.

Why do you ask ?
Posted By: 43Shooter Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/15/21
I've done a lot of clay pigeon shooting, upland and waterfowl hunting as well as reading about shotguns and shooting them for over 60 years. Mule Deer's book, "Shotguns For Wingshooting" is a good one. IMO there's a lot of well explained good practical info in it and the photography is very good.
Posted By: battue Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/15/21
Sometimes the real thing is harder than clays and sometimes it isn’t.
.
Originally Posted by dimecovers5
Does anybody remember a small shotgun maker in KY or TN by the name of Hatfield that made smaller gauge double guns? This would have been ca. 1977



yes I remember them. Hatfield also made muzzleloaders and if my memory serves me right manufactured the
"Hawkin" rifle for Browning Arms Company. I don't recall their shotguns.
Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Doc,

Well, in Montana it was somewhat "encouraged" when I started out shooting/hunting--though the most common "pattern board" was an empty 12-ounce can on top of a wooden fence-post at an undetermined range. If the can fell off the fencepost (and had more than one hole) then the gun was good to go!

Might also mention again (since it's a story I've told more than once before in print) that my paternal grandmother was a hard-core meat hunter, and otherwise tough woman who homesteaded by herself in central Montana right after WWI. She apparently NEVER owned a shotgun, instead wingshooting birds with her Winchester pump .22. But in that country, back then, they were mostly sage grouse, which are pretty big--and not generally taken at acute angles.

But apparently she eventually did become acquainted with famous handgun shooter Ed McGivern, who was also from Lewistown. Aside from homesteading, she also taught country school after she married the Norwegian homesteader on the adjoining claim. After he died in the middle of the Depression, she eventually worked her way up to superintendent of schools for Fergus County--and during that period Ed McGivern gave shooting demonstrations for the school. My father remembered attending them regularly. Imagine that today!



Being somewhat familiar with Ed McGivern exploits with a revolver I do recall "Skeeter Skelton" penning an article or two on shooting aerial targets ( mostly dirt clods) out in the desert. Skeeter used a .38 revolver. Being able to shoot aerial targets is the epitome of instinctive point shooting.
Posted By: 10gaugemag Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/15/21
Originally Posted by battue
You think a clay that reaches a height of 60 feet is not accelerating as it starts on the downward path?

Then it may get thrown from the trap at warp speed on edge , and you need to break it before it is gone out of range. Where you can break it, it may be little more than a blur.

No I don't but I hope that I have busted that clay before it reaches max height or break it as it hits that peak.
Posted By: DigitalDan Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/15/21
Any of you fellas was a PHD in wing shooting need to find yourself some snipe. They will make you step back and ponder a bit.
Posted By: battue Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/15/21
Well sometimes you can, and sometimes it may be too far out, or as often with a battue, it hasn’t yet turned, and the best place to break it is closer on the drop. Or it is the second bird of a pair, that gives you no other choice but to try on the way down.
Posted By: battue Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/15/21
Originally Posted by DigitalDan
Any of you fellas was a PHD in wing shooting need to find yourself some snipe. They will make you step back and ponder a bit.


I don’t have a PhD, but like the commercial…”I’ve seen a few things.”
Posted By: 10gaugemag Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/15/21
I do have a PHD in fact.

Pleasant Hill diploma.

Did shoot some rails and snipes while dove hunting. Those are some smelly little bastards, maybe worse than the Bobwhite quail.
Posted By: dan_oz Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/15/21
Originally Posted by battue
Sometimes the real thing is harder than clays and sometimes it isn’t.
.


Not wanting to buy into an argument, but I will agree with this. I have had any number of shots on game birds and ducks and rabbits and such that were easy peasy, whether because they were slow off the mark, or flying in unawares or whatever.

One thing that does strike me forcefully though is that in Sporting you know what you are going to get - two incomers, or a crosser followed by an incomer on report, or whatever. You get to see the path they'll follow, and can get set up, put your feet in position and look in the right direction, and then call it. In the field you usually don't get that, except perhaps if you are in a hide waiting for ducks, and see them coming in from a good way out.

Even with that though, I think Sporting is good fun, and worthwhile practice if you can't get a lot of shooting, or to get your eye in before the season opens..
Posted By: battue Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/15/21
No argument here…
Posted By: Pappy348 Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/15/21
Sometimes the shooting “problem” on game birds is easy, too easy at times, but is complicated by the commotion created when a squawking, whirring bag of feathers jumps out of hiding. The miserable cheaters sometimes even wait until you’ve walked past them before they take off. That said, I think that overall I’ve done better on the surprising ones than the ones I’ve spotted before they flushed.

I shot my first real claybird setup this season, a Five-Stand at my gun club. So far it’s been a lot of fun, and definitely not too easy for me. The operator lets you call your launcher(s) so you can practice what you want, and they move the traps around periodically. I’ve shot with my A5 and the 20ga O/U, and my long-standing preference for the A5 is definitely supported by my results with it. I have to say that one fits me pretty well. Still working out properly mounting the 20, but the advantage of using a reflex sight is that as long as the dot is in the right spot, the shot will follow, regardless of how you hold the gun. That may offend some purists, but I'm in the what works, works camp; no tweeds or vest or breeches or silly-looking socks. May have a tattersall shirt someplace, but my assortment of ties is limited.
Posted By: Andy3 Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/15/21
Clays can be figured out, on a calm day. You want to be humbled? Shoot decoying pigeons, in a feedlot or dairy. 1st shot will be near 100%......let me know how you do on shot #2, #3, #4 or #5. NOTHING moves like a pigeon, that wants to be somewhere else!

Andy3
Posted By: Pappy348 Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/15/21
Barnyard pigeons learn quick, for sure.

Winter flocks of starlings are a challenge too, very fast and smarter than doves I think. We used to hide in a field grown up in cedars and wait for them to fly by. Cheap #9s really smoked them.
Posted By: pete53 Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/15/21
anyone who feels clay birds are easy has not been shooting clay birds much, i have hunted with my share of bird hunters and the best clay bird shooters have always been the better wing shot when i was hunting and the guys who claim clay birds are easy compared to real birds have always been a poor wing shooter and trap shooter always.
Posted By: 10gaugemag Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/15/21
Originally Posted by Pappy348
Barnyard pigeons learn quick, for sure.

Winter flocks of starlings are a challenge too, very fast and smarter than doves I think. We used to hide in a field grown up in cedars and wait for them to fly by. Cheap #9s really smoked them.

We kill the hell out of starlings headed to my buds chicken coop and dog kennels.

The very best practice I have found for dove season.
Posted By: 10gaugemag Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/15/21
Originally Posted by Andy3
Clays can be figured out, on a calm day. You want to be humbled? Shoot decoying pigeons, in a feedlot or dairy. 1st shot will be near 100%......let me know how you do on shot #2, #3, #4 or #5. NOTHING moves like a pigeon, that wants to be somewhere else!

Andy3

Love shooting some city chickens.

We used to have a dairy farm we hunted and we killed several at times. Maybe 2-3 in with a limit of 15 doves per man.

Preferred 5s or 6s on them. Smashed the hell out of em.
Posted By: Pappy348 Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/15/21
Have tried neither, but Live Pigeon shooting and driven pheasants seem about as tough as it can get; juiced up, accelerating birds trying to stay alive.

Do they still even have the Live Pigeon shoots? Seem to recall there was some pressure to ban them, like all fun stuff.
Posted By: 10gaugemag Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/15/21
I prefer to shoot live pigeons over dead pigeons.

Dead ones aren't as sporting.
Posted By: Andy3 Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/15/21
Those little starlings are tough! Many, that you think you missed, fall dead 100 yards out! Takes a well centered hit, up close, to put feathers in the air!

Guys that think birds are easier than clays, have never shot pigeons much. I have a state champ trap shooter shoot them with me, regularly.....he flys in from out of state just to shoot pigeons with me.....says there is no challenge in the world like them, not even close. I even learned some new cuss words from him, and I learned from the best (a fighter pilot)!!!

Andy3
Posted By: battue Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/15/21
You should try moths buzzing around lights. You can bring a light puff of smoke.

Not all that hard…..
Posted By: battue Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/15/21
Originally Posted by Pappy348
Have tried neither, but Live Pigeon shooting and driven pheasants seem about as tough as it can get; juiced up, accelerating birds trying to stay alive.

Do they still even have the Live Pigeon shoots? Seem to recall there was some pressure to ban them, like all fun stuff.


By invite….but helice (zz birds) is coming on strong.
Posted By: 10gaugemag Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/15/21
Do wood bees with a 22 pistol and shotshells count?
Posted By: battue Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/15/21
Posted By: Pappy348 Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/15/21
Absolutely.
Originally Posted by doctor_Encore
Originally Posted by dimecovers5
Does anybody remember a small shotgun maker in KY or TN by the name of Hatfield that made smaller gauge double guns? This would have been ca. 1977



yes I remember them. Hatfield also made muzzleloaders and if my memory serves me right manufactured the
"Hawkin" rifle for Browning Arms Company. I don't recall their shotguns.



This is one
https://lsbauctions.com/8669/hatfie...-double-barrel-shotgun-case-mfd-ca-1988/

https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/50/3440/hatfield-rifle-company-uplander-shotgun-2028-ga

Anyway I guess they were not in business long but I remember reading about them in Outdoor Life or Field & Stream and really wanting one bad. I'm more curious who wrote the article as it was well done and made me covet the gun badly.
Posted By: 338Rules Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/15/21
Utterly beautiful, I also need one in 28 gauge !
Posted By: 338Rules Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/15/21
Originally Posted by battue


This looks like a lot of fun, are the targets re-shootable ?
Posted By: 338Rules Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/15/21
Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Oh, I know I'm far from unique. But have hunted wild birds in at least 14 states, half a dozen Canadian provinces and territories, and at least five other countries on a couple other continents. Don't know how many species of gamebirds that involved, but lots more than the locations. Have fired over 1000 rounds on some of those days.

One thing I learned long ago is that shooting clays starts to bore the schidt out of me after a certain number, whether skeet, trap or Sporting Clays. But then different strokes for different folks. And I tend to believe Bob Brister's opinion on clay shooting more than yours.


I’ve had a lot of days, and truth be known, Entire Seasons where I didn’t fire 10 shots ! Pathetic yes,
but that’s Ruffed Grouse hunting on the down years of their cycle.

Had I wanted to , I could’ve fired a thousand rounds at Canada geese in those same years.

I can’t imagine the drudgery of carrying an American Skeet gun for grouse hunting,
or similarily a Trap cannon on a goose hunting expedition.

They may be accurate, but they’re not all that interesting when hunting.

Sporting guns tend to mount and swing nice, but they also tend to be a little heavier than a true field version.

Weight soaks up the recoil of a few hundred target shots, lighter guns tend to go along when the miles exceed the shot count, Ha
Posted By: PennDog Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/16/21
Originally Posted by 10gaugemag
Do wood bees with a 22 pistol and shotshells count?


I’ve impressed more than a couple of people shooting carpenter bees out of the air with a .22 pistol of course I never told them there were shotshells in the pistol😁!!

PennDog
Posted By: Mule Deer Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/16/21
PennDog,

Laughing here, both because of your story and a couple of similar ones.

One of my hunting mentors, in both wingshooting and big game, was the late Norm Strung, who was a hard-core hunter who grew up in New York City--back when you had to be 18 to get a driver's license. Consequently he hitch-hiked to the Catskills when he started deer hunting at age 16, with his Savage 99 in a soft case. Imagine trying that now.

Anyway, Norm left New York as soon as he graduated from high school, and moved to Montana to live in the country and become a hunting/fishing writer. He eventually bought 7 acres of land with a falling-down log cabin, and rebuilt the cabin while starting a side-career of being a fishing/hunting guide.

While rebuilding there were still a lot of mice in the place--but they not only put up the hunters in a tent next to the cabin, but fed them, his wife Sil doing the cooking. During meals a few mice ran around the "dining room," a small space including the wood cookstove she then cooked on. He kept Sil's Ruger Bearcat (the original, smaller model) on the dinner table, loaded with birdshot rounds. When a mouse showed up Norm would casually whack it with the Bearcat, which enhanced his reputation among clients!

When I was a little kid, used to stuff a short wad of Kleenex in my Daisy Red Ryder, then pour in a little sand, and another "wad." This proved very effective on flies out to about 10 feet.
Posted By: Pappy348 Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/16/21
BTDT😜

A couple of years ago, Charlie Jacoby of the Fieldsports Channel did a piece on his father’s struggle with cabbage whites in his garden. I got inspired and loaded up my .22 Air King using cleaning pellets as the wadding and #12 shot from some Rio shotshells, then sent him pics of the patterns. Don’t know if he tried it himself, but I got a nice email response. Never tried them on the butterflies myself as we gave up on growing broccoli.
Outstanding story, Dirt! It’s reflections like this that keep me coming back. Thank you!
Posted By: Dirtfarmer Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/16/21
Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Captain Charles Askins (Askins the Elder) wrote some good stuff on shotguns and bird hunting as well. If you can find a copy of his 1931 book GAME BIRD SHOOTING it not only has a lot to say about shotguns, dogs, etc. but is great look at what upland bird hunting and waterfowling was like in America during the early 20th century.


You going way back with the elder Askins. I have that book and the 1929 printing of his Modern Shotgun Loads. In the fly leaf are ads for books by Ed Crossman, Julian Hatcher, J.R. Mattern and Townsend Whelen. Quite an era. The Major was a great writer, very technical.. His son, the Col, wrote that his Dad hardly ever missed flying targets. He was not only one of the top gunwriters of his day, but was known to be a shotgun guru.

After I ended up (luckily and by chance) with the old man's personal Superposed, I did research, contacted his grandson, Bill Askins in San Antonio, got some interesting Askins info not otherwise published. Bill had been mentioned in the Col's book, Unrepentant Sinner. Reportedly he worked with the "company" in Viet Nam. When Siagon fell, Bill took his band of Montagnards into Thailand, commandeered a C-130 and few out with as many as he could. Others were put on a ship, but it was later captured by the enemy. Bill is into real estate and sells airplanes. Here's the link, sorta long but some good stuff. http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=124719

Bill offered me the Major's Ithaca 16 ga Grade 4 Ejector double gun. I had worked some with Walt Snyder, who has written books on Ithacas, thought he should have such a historical gun. I put them together, Walt bought the gun and wrote a great Double Gun Journal piece on it and the Major. It's the Winter, 2013 issue, starts on page 91. Those interested in such would enjoy it. Do I regret not getting that gun? Not really, it's in the right hands. And I still have the Super. And without Walt, that Double Gun article would have never happened.

DF
Posted By: Dirtfarmer Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/16/21
Originally Posted by PintsofCraft
Outstanding story, Dirt! It’s reflections like this that keep me coming back. Thank you!

I re-did it to correct spelling on Montagnard. I had left out the "n".

DF
Posted By: 300_savage Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/16/21
I hope all the favorite guns of that generation of writers are in the hands of those who appreciate them. But it's probably not so. Glad those two shotguns of Askin's ended up in good hands! I read an article, or maybe it was here on the fire, about someone who ended up with O'Connor's 2-R Lovell. An interesting read.
Posted By: dan_oz Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/16/21
Originally Posted by pete53
anyone who feels clay birds are easy has not been shooting clay birds much, i have hunted with my share of bird hunters and the best clay bird shooters have always been the better wing shot when i was hunting and the guys who claim clay birds are easy compared to real birds have always been a poor wing shooter and trap shooter always.


Some clay birds are pretty easy actually. Going away shots from a hand thrower, for example. Even down the line the shots are pretty easy. The hard part is doing it over and over again, never letting your concentration lapse.

I don't disagree that shooting clays is good practice, but some varieties of clay shooting strike me as better practice for field shooting than others.
Posted By: jwall Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/16/21
[quote=Dirtfarmer]

You going way back with the elder Askins. I have that book and the 1929 printing of his Modern Shotgun Loads. In the fly leaf are ads for books by Ed Crossman, Julian Hatcher, J.R. Mattern and Townsend Whelen. Quite an era. The Major was a great writer, very technical.. His son, the Col, wrote that his Dad hardly ever missed flying targets. He was not only one of the top gunwriters of his day, but was known to be a shotgun guru.

After I ended up (luckily and by chance) with the old man's personal Superposed, I did research, contacted his grandson, Bill Askins in San Antonio, got some interesting Askins info not otherwise published. Bill had been mentioned in the Col's book, Unrepentant Sinner. Reportedly he worked with the "company" in Viet Nam. When Siagon fell, Bill took his band of Montagnards into Thailand, commandeered a C-130 and few out with as many as he could. Others were put on a ship, but it was later captured by the enemy. Bill is into real estate and sells airplanes. Here's the link, sorta long but some good stuff. http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=124719

Bill offered me the Major's Ithaca 16 ga Grade 4 Ejector double gun. I had worked some with Walt Snyder, who has written books on Ithacas, thought he should have such a historical gun. I put them together, Walt bought the gun and wrote a great Double Gun Journal piece on it and the Major. It's the Winter, 2013 issue, starts on page 91. Those interested in such would enjoy it. Do I regret not getting that gun? Not really, it's in the right hands. And I still have the Super. And without Walt, that Double Gun article would have never happened.

DF

———————————


Tip o the Hat there D F
KUDOS !!!


Jerry
Posted By: battue Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/16/21
Originally Posted by 338Rules
Originally Posted by battue


This looks like a lot of fun, are the targets re-shootable ?


Yes more than once, but being plastic they get beat up. The white center has to fall inside the ring to score.

Used to be the machines had to be loaded manually and it took a lot of time. Now there are auto loading tube systems that speed it up.

Have shot it a couple times and it isn’t for the weak. It was a humbling experience.
Posted By: horse1 Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/16/21
Originally Posted by battue
Pheasants to him were much the same as shooting them in a box.


After even a modest amount of clays in the off-season, shooting pheasants over dogs that let you know they're getting close, is the equivalent of shooting trash-can lids that someone is hand-tossing. Pheasants are big and slow though a stiff wind can up the challenge somewhat.
Posted By: kappa8 Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/16/21
Originally Posted by wahoo
maybe it's that there is less material. after all, how can you wildcat a shotshell? look at how many articles you could write about cartridges, not to mention the old faithful, what's the best cartridge for whatever.


Not less material, but different material. There's plenty written about cartridges and loading, but I don't believe the rifle world comes close to the volumes written about the actual firearm - the shotgun. Over a century of SxS designs and production, coming from innumerable manufacturers, damascus barrels vs fluid steel, from gild guns to bespoke, boxlock vs sidelock design variations, multi-gage sets and presentation sets, etc.

There are only so many "guaranteed MOA accuracy" articles I can tolerate. Classic doubles reading never gets boring.
Posted By: battue Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/16/21
Since most today are mainly interested in Semi autos, how many Beretta/Benelli articles would one find interesting

Shotguns in America today are frequently regarded as a disposable tool.

SxS? Most look at them as a throwback from the past, that few can shoot well.

Belong to the Parker forum…few members and limited participation.
Posted By: Dirtfarmer Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/16/21
Originally Posted by dan_oz
Originally Posted by pete53
anyone who feels clay birds are easy has not been shooting clay birds much, i have hunted with my share of bird hunters and the best clay bird shooters have always been the better wing shot when i was hunting and the guys who claim clay birds are easy compared to real birds have always been a poor wing shooter and trap shooter always.


Some clay birds are pretty easy actually. Going away shots from a hand thrower, for example. Even down the line the shots are pretty easy. The hard part is doing it over and over again, never letting your concentration lapse.

I don't disagree that shooting clays is good practice, but some varieties of clay shooting strike me as better practice for field shooting than others.



My Cajun business pard loves to hunt ducks. His jet pilot son is a crack shot with clays, the old man, not so much. Boy beats him pretty bad.

BUT, if you put feathers on the target, it smells like gumbo to him. He rarely misses ducks. Not sure the son could compete. I asked the difference. He replied, you can't eat clay birds. So, I guess it depends a lot on the motivation of the shooter. And, BTW, he really knows how to cook those ducks (about everything else, come to think about it....)

Never bet against a Cajun killing something to eat. You'd probably lose that one.

DF
Posted By: Mule Deer Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/17/21
Originally Posted by Dirtfarmer
Originally Posted by dan_oz
[quote=pete53] anyone who feels clay birds are easy has not been shooting clay birds much, i have hunted with my share of bird hunters and the best clay bird shooters have always been the better wing shot when i was hunting and the guys who claim clay birds are easy compared to real birds have always been a poor wing shooter and trap shooter always.[/quote



My Cajun business pard loves to hunt ducks. His jet pilot son is a crack shot with clays, the old man, not so much. Boy beats him pretty bad.

BUT, if you put feathers on the target, it smells like gumbo to him. He rarely misses ducks. Not sure the son could compete. I asked the difference. He replied, you can't eat clay birds. So, I guess it depends a lot on the motivation of the shooter. And, BTW, he really knows how to cook those ducks (about everything else, come to think about it....)

Never bet against a Cajun killing something to eat. You'd probably lose that one.

DF


Pete,

Would like to know how much you hunt birds. My experience has been the opposite--that the hunters who shoot LOTS of birds are often better wingshots than those who shoot lots of clays. Of course, if most of the people you know don't hunt birds much, then that's an obvious reason they can't hit them as well.

Dirtfarmer's answer is one of the reasons SOME bird hunters miss far fewer edible birds than clays.
Posted By: Owl Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/17/21
My Bro-N-Law and a few buddies own 2 Pheasant hunting ranches in SD.

They live in UT. They raise 800 chuckars a year to use and "practice" birds before they head up to SD for pheaants.

If you can hit a FAST flying chuckar, you have a pretty good chance of hitting pheasants.

Practice, practice, practice....
Posted By: Mule Deer Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/17/21
As far as pheasants go, yes, a lot of them are easy to hit--especially if you hunt private land where they don't get pressured much, and especially where a lot of the birds are pen-raised.

That's very different than hunting public-land pheasants, especially late in the season. They're still not as hard as some other wild birds--especially wild chukars on steep hillsides when you're breathing hard, or ruffed grouse, or (as I mentioned earlier) African rock pigeons. But I hunt probably 80% of my pheasants on public land, where they're chased hard for several months each year. Last year the closest shot I got was early in the season--in a shelterbelt that resembled ruffed grouse cover more than typical open private land. The range was about 30 yards, and it took quick shooting.

The others were all taken at 35 to 50 yards, with the longer shots occurring when there was some crunchy snow on the ground, as it often is later in the season. And they were hunted with experienced dogs, both careful flushers and good pointers.

I find hunting wild birds on public land more interesting than on private land. In fact about 20 years ago, when I was doing some "finishing" research on bird-hunting in various parts of the U.S. for SHOTGUNS FOR WINGSHOOTING, and Eileen needed a bunch of wild birds for her book, UPLAND BIRD COOKERY, we put 18,000 miles on our vehicles one fall. We not only hunted wild birds in places from the U.P. of Michigan to eastern Oregon, and Arizona to Alberta, but our young dog (a Lab/Llewellyn setter cross) got to hunt 11 species--and he adapted nicely! In fact, toward the end of the fall more than one of our fellow hunters asked to hunt over Gideon. It was a great autumn, partly because we got lucky and hit various areas just at the right time, including the U.P. just as the woodcock came in....

Posted By: battue Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/17/21
Originally Posted by Dirtfarmer


[/quote

My Cajun business pard loves to hunt ducks. His jet pilot son is a crack shot with clays, the old man, not so much. Boy beats him pretty bad.

BUT, if you put feathers on the target, it smells like gumbo to him. He rarely misses ducks. Not sure the son could compete. I asked the difference. He replied, you can't eat clay birds. So, I guess it depends a lot on the motivation of the shooter. And, BTW, he really knows how to cook those ducks (about everything else, come to think about it....)

Never bet against a Cajun killing something to eat. You'd probably lose that one.

DF


Mostly agree….with SC there are more than a few “tricks” the top guns know and use.

However, a good upland Bird shooter also has figured out the ones that work in the field.

And one may or may not be good at both.


Posted By: 450Fuller Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/17/21
Nash Buckingham knew shotguns.
He graduated from a 34 in Parker in the 1920s to a Becker-bored HE Super Fox. Askins also had a 3inch Fox.
Mr. Buck's timeless books speak of another age. "De Shootinest Gen'tman" is a classic.
Buckingham probably contributed a great deal to AH Fox shotgun sales in the 20s and 30s.
LC Smith also followed suit with a Long Range Waterfowl 3 in chambering,
and Winchester brought out the 3 in Heavy Duck Model 12.

Changes in duck limits and other factors limited the amount
of waterfowl taken beginning in the 1930s.

Teal and doves in the Southeast will sharpen your
wing shooting abilities or add to your woes.
Posted By: 43Shooter Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/17/21
+1 on teal & doves. Also wild pheasants with a flushing dog or ruffed grouse in cover. Nobody's saying "pull".
Posted By: Mule Deer Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/17/21
Originally Posted by 43Shooter
+1 on teal & doves. Also wild pheasants with a flushing dog or ruffed grouse in cover. Nobody's saying "pull".


Have found a lot of wild pheasants holed up in what's very similar to ruffed grouse cover later in the season. In particular one of the areas where we used to hunt had several the alder/willow thickets behind beaver dams, and roosters naturally headed there after opening day, because few people hunted there. Have also found the same thing on islands in Montana rivers, especially where hip-boots are required to get there.
Posted By: gnoahhh Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/17/21
Fairly typical behavior in my neck of the woods in south central PA and western MD, back in the day when there were actually pheasants to be had. More than once I flushed cockbirds out of coverts consisting of edge cover in woods clearings whilst grousing. On a few occasions my pard and I debated whether to load with high-vel 6's or #8 target loads for grouse, knowing that anything could get up in front of us. (Often we compromised and I would stuff my barrels with light 8's and he would go with heavy 6's. Usually we were only kidding ourselves as it never worked out as planned. But, hint: 7/8 oz. of 8's will knock down a pheasant quite handily, as long as you don't try to rake the shot charge straight up its back at a shallow angle on a directly going away shot.)
Posted By: Pappy348 Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/17/21
Once upon a time, Adams County, PA was Pheasant Heaven. No trick at all to limit out in short order on truly wild birds, plus there were some quail and rabbits were plentiful. Been pretty slim pickings since the late 70s or early 80s; planted birds, no quail, not many rabbits.

Changing land use and farming practices, the protection of predators, and maybe the return of turkeys are all factors, I think. Now you need a Pheasant stamp to hunt them, and apparently you can shoot hens too since it’s all put and take. Glad I got to experience the good old days.
Posted By: wahoo Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/17/21
2 cents worth on the clays vs hunters thing. had a customer who was a skeet shooter, never hunted. took me skeet shooting. the best thing i had for this was a 16 ga m-12 in ic. the first time around, the only clays i hit were the ones from the top of the circle. i got all of them. they were like field shots.

the second time, did much better. never got the hang of the 8th position.
Posted By: gnoahhh Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/17/21
Originally Posted by Pappy348
Once upon a time, Adams County, PA was Pheasant Heaven. No trick at all to limit out in short order on truly wild birds, plus there were some quail and rabbits were plentiful. Been pretty slim pickings since the late 70s or early 80s; planted birds, no quail, not many rabbits.

Changing land use and farming practices, the protection of predators, and maybe the return of turkeys are all factors, I think. Now you need a Pheasant stamp to hunt them, and apparently you can shoot hens too since it’s all put and take. Glad I got to experience the good old days.


I hear you. I was next door in York County, and a good bit in Northumberland County. Hunting in central/western Maryland was mostly for quail. When they lifted the bounties on foxes and hawks, and the farmers bought into no-till farming, new generations of pesticides, and eradication of fence rows, the quail disappeared.

Hunting was so bountiful that it never crossed our gang's minds to shoot skeet or trap instead, except as a novelty. The guys I knew who were dedicated trap shooters were none of them hunters. Sporting Clays didn't exist back then.

Then there were the live pigeon shoots and the guys who were plugged into that sport. A whole 'nother world was that.
Posted By: battue Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/17/21
Gonahh....

Agree that we had something special here in Pa.....On top of what you mentioned, you could have 30 to 40 flush days on Ruffed Grouse....And the Grouse hung on longer than the Pheasants or Quail.

Used to travel the turnpike thru the areas you mentioned and you were more likely to find Pheasants hit by cars than Deer. Travel some of that land today, especially thru some of the Amish country were land use has changed little....and you will have to look hard for a Pheasant. Great habitat...and the Amish are not killing them all...as they are often blamed to do on anything huntable. Something other than hunting/habitat is responsible for wild Bird numbers declining.

Even on the edges of our mill towns in Westmoreland we had Pheasants and Grouse....Edges where there was limited farming. The edges of RR tracks that passed thru wood had Grouse and Pheasants in huntable numbers. Then slowly gone for the most part.

Mentioned the same to more than one Game Warden and was told Pheasants need big corn fields....Didn't believe we ever could find limits in large weed patches bordered by woods. Some also told me....Turkeys can only populate in the big woods....well now they are in downtown Pittsburgh. Daughter lives in suburbia and has them in her yard on a regular basis.

The GC line for years was Grouse were dying out because of lack of habitat...While the dedicated Grouse hunters were telling them they know of perfect covers that hold few or no Birds. And for years it fell on the deaf ears. Then finally they sent some out to actually look at the covers. Guess what? "Yes, there should be Birds here." So finally they decided to look into it. Their current answer is West Nile. Well their methodology of coming to that conclusion is suspect, but they are sticking to it.

Small game Bird hunters here? With the exception of Pa stocked, they are a dying breed. It is rare to cross paths with one other than when hunting stocked. Another dirty secret is most Bird hunters are not all that willing to hunt hard for Grouse....They hit the stocked fields for an hour or so...and if not successful go home to watch the games. Can't miss the Steeler game for hunting.

If you don't have Birds to hunt and want to shoot shotguns...where do you go? Clays? And I see it almost on a weekly basis...Sporting Clays is the game. One course close by this year has scheduled over 100 corporate or charity events. Events that most time have 100 plus shooters. And the manager said if not for Covid, it would have been more. You can hardly call them anymore to just go and shoot. The facility often is booked for 2 events a day. And it is surprising the number of women showing up and finding more than a little fun shooting shotguns. Back to the subject, ehh!!!

Women are bringing other women out to shoot sporting clays, and they don't necessarily need or want the men around telling them..."This is how you should do it honey."

Watched that happen...over and over... to one girl. During a break, I sat down beside her and said...."I bet that gets old." I can't right now remember her reply, but I was laughing out loud it was so good....and from a really attractive girl...colorful. Something like....Oh yea, I'm f......trying to miss, just so I can have you talking into my ear, while I'm trying to hit something." That wasn't exactly it, but it was outstanding...


In addition, many of them eventually start looking at the good stuff. And I know a couple that have got into Bird hunting and Dogs. And some can play....

Perhaps clays may help in bringing us back around?????




Posted By: horse1 Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/17/21
Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Originally Posted by Dirtfarmer
Originally Posted by dan_oz
[quote=pete53] anyone who feels clay birds are easy has not been shooting clay birds much, i have hunted with my share of bird hunters and the best clay bird shooters have always been the better wing shot when i was hunting and the guys who claim clay birds are easy compared to real birds have always been a poor wing shooter and trap shooter always.[/quote



My Cajun business pard loves to hunt ducks. His jet pilot son is a crack shot with clays, the old man, not so much. Boy beats him pretty bad.

BUT, if you put feathers on the target, it smells like gumbo to him. He rarely misses ducks. Not sure the son could compete. I asked the difference. He replied, you can't eat clay birds. So, I guess it depends a lot on the motivation of the shooter. And, BTW, he really knows how to cook those ducks (about everything else, come to think about it....)

Never bet against a Cajun killing something to eat. You'd probably lose that one.

DF


Pete,

Would like to know how much you hunt birds. My experience has been the opposite--that the hunters who shoot LOTS of birds are often better wingshots than those who shoot lots of clays. Of course, if most of the people you know don't hunt birds much, then that's an obvious reason they can't hit them as well.

Dirtfarmer's answer is one of the reasons SOME bird hunters miss far fewer edible birds than clays.


Big groups of hunters will cause an awful lot of folks to rush their shots in order to "get the bird" before the other hunters. Then of course there's the excitement of the flush. I didn't see a ruffed grouse until I was in my early 20's, I grew up shooting pheasants, huns, and sharptails in the wide-open prairie. When prairie-birds flush, I relax, take my time (relative term) and let the bird get to a point that I'm not going to "blow-it-up" by shooting too close. While they make a lot of noise and beat their wings fast, rising huns, sharps, and roosters don't really fly all that fast, there's time if you take it. Ruffed grouse on the other hand still unhinge me a bit and I often shoot well before I'm ahead of the bird trying to beat them to "cover". Ruffed grouse humble me significantly, even when the dog lets me know they're close or I see them prior to the flush.

Clay pigeons while certainly smaller and faster than the vast majority of game birds are predictable regarding the where/when of them and a shooter can at least get their feet set and body positioned for a full-body swing even if they start with a low-gun, they're more ready than most game-bird flushes, even planted birds.

A "natural" shotgun shooter likely has excellent hand/eye coordination. Their hands and body will get the gun where their eyes tells them it needs to be.
Posted By: battue Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/17/21
Horse...

It is obvious you know the game...With regards clays, especially sporting clays, most often it is a different game. However, most refer to it as being similar to trap and skeet....Well the differences are considerable with regards variety, distances and report and true pairs. And back when the game started it was all manual traps and the trapper had to be close to hear the call. Today with automatic trips and electronic release, the trap can be almost any place....It isn' t the same game that Brister and the Remington boys....yes, Remington should be given much of the credit....brought to America.

That being said, here we are often told the importance of getting off the bench and to practice our rifle shooting from field positions. Yet many don't think the same applies to shooting shotguns for Birds....There are basics that apply to becoming proficient with rifles and hunting...and the same applies to shotguns and Birds...Unless one has access to large numbers of live Birds....clays are the place to develop the basics of shotguns and Bird hunting.

Addition: And Gnohaa's country was essentially the birthplace of sporting clays in America..The Eastern Shore was the first to promote sporting to any degree.....Hopkins, J&P, Schraders..

The Great American, The Blue Crab...500 and 600 shooters crossing the bay bridge to shoot a new game...
Posted By: Mule Deer Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/17/21
Originally Posted by Pappy348
Once upon a time, Adams County, PA was Pheasant Heaven. No trick at all to limit out in short order on truly wild birds, plus there were some quail and rabbits were plentiful. Been pretty slim pickings since the late 70s or early 80s; planted birds, no quail, not many rabbits.

Changing land use and farming practices, the protection of predators, and maybe the return of turkeys are all factors, I think. Now you need a Pheasant stamp to hunt them, and apparently you can shoot hens too since it’s all put and take. Glad I got to experience the good old days.


Have spent some time in the eastern U.S. hunting various states, and one of the factors that has to have affected wild gamebird populations is the abundance of whitetails in many areas. One of my good friends, a custom gunsmith, has been part owner of 800 acres in West Virginia for many years. There's some fairly level ground along a creek, but most is pretty up and down, like a lot of West By God, with plenty of timber.

Back when he and his friends first bought the place as a hunting-fishing family get away, he says the ruffed grouse hunting was pretty darn good. The timber is still here, but most of the ground cover gets eaten by deer--and they hunt the deer pretty hard. I have seen plenty of deer on the place, in fact it's hard not to, but cannot remember seeing a ruffed grouse in all of my visits.
Posted By: horse1 Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/17/21
Originally Posted by battue
Horse...

It is obvious you know the game...With regards clays, especially sporting clays, most often it is a different game. However, most refer to it as being similar to trap and skeet....Well the differences are considerable with regards variety, distances and report and true pairs.

That being said, here we are often told the importance of getting off the bench and to practice our rifle shooting from field positions. Yet many don't think the same applies to shooting shotguns for Birds....There are basics that apply to becoming proficient with rifles and hunting...and the same applies to shotguns and Birds...Unless one has access to large numbers of live Birds....clays are the place to develop the basics of Bird hunting.


No argument from me that practice is essential. I haven't been on an organized skeet/sporting clays team/league in about 3 yrs and my shooting shows it in the form of more cripples. I can band-aide it somewhat by swapping to a 12Ga rather than my preferred 20, but, it's still a band-aide, I'd benefit more from more off-season targets. Clays cannot however prepare you for what your reaction might be to flushing game birds, only flushing game birds can prepare you for flushing game birds.

I was exceptionally fortunate to have grown up in ND during the best of the CRP years. We had an "open campus" during high school and reasonable pheasant hunting was only 10Min away. String together 2 off-periods and one could get in 90min of bird hunting without ditching class. Doggone huns were EVERYWHERE when I was growing up, enough so that I learned to pick out 1-bird rather than "flock-shoot" before I exited Jr. High, a concept I've seen an awful lot of adults never ever catch on to. 10's of thousands of bird-flushes later, I don't have to rush, and I rarely down more than 1 bird at a time, as losing downed birds really irritates me.
Posted By: Pugs Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/17/21
Originally Posted by battue
Something other than hunting/habitat is responsible for wild Bird numbers declining.


Like so many things I think it's a complex combination of factors. After being born in Pittsburg my Dad was transferred to Chicago so I grew up in the south suburbs.

Back then it was a mix of small corn/bean fields, homes that sprung out of fields and of course the Cook County forest preserve which was almost all sapling forests or wild grass. We had pheasants everywhere to the point my friends and I would crawl along the edge of the fields and shoot them in the heads with air rifles. These were later cooked over an open fire near our treehouse. There was no actual hunting allowed in Cook County so this got us in some trouble then that was dealt with quietly by police and parents and now would like get us put in jail.

Anyway this was the early 70's and was typical of all over the midwest. Stop and look at a plowed field and you'd give up counting pheasants. My Dad and I would take an annual trip to Iowa and Nebraska and same thing for quail out there. Then it all started to crash. Really bad consecutive winters in 77/78, edge to edge farming practices increased airborne and surface predators all take their toll. In 1980 my Dad was transferred to central IN and I think we got the last of some decent grouse in Brown, Morgan and Monroe counties. By that point, even in the glaciated counties north of the hills there were very few pheasants. That had largely disappeared in less than 10 years.

I was up in NH a couple weeks ago and had a guide for a trout trip. He was saying grouse hunting in NH is in decline but VT and ME remain strong due to small woodlot cutting and regrowth in those states and less so in NH. I hope to prove him wrong soon grin

On the topic of live vs clay. In my experience you won't find many good clays shooters that approach the category of "poor" for actual hunting but the opposite isn't true.
Posted By: battue Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/17/21
Originally Posted by horse1
Clays cannot however prepare you for what your reaction might be to flushing game birds, only flushing game birds can prepare you for flushing game birds.

.


Agree completely...and I'm guilty of the sin. Partially developed from hunting Ruffed Grouse for so many years. You hear the flush, look for the Bird and most times best get a shot off before they are gone..Not always..but most times. Now that I don't hear as well....fortunately or unfortunately....depending on the player...they are much more likely to escape.
Posted By: battue Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/17/21
Pugs...

One fellow I know went to Maine last year...Over 100 flushes in three days.

Pheasants???? DuxDog here has a place in S.D. to stay and he feeds you well...it would be worth looking into if you want to hunt public land on your own and have a Dog....A friend of his has helped us out on finding spots..Seeing 100 to 200 Birds a day isn't uncommon. They can be on the wild side....but they screw up often enough...Hell, one even flew into a telephone line and killed itself.... wink

And it wouldn't be rare to find a few nice shotguns hanging around also...
Posted By: Pugs Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/17/21
Originally Posted by battue
Pugs...

One fellow I know went to Maine last year...Over 100 flushes in three days.

Pheasants???? DuxDog here has a place in S.D. to stay and he feeds you well...it would be worth looking into if you want to hunt public land on your own and have a Dog....A friend of his has helped us out on finding spots..Seeing 100 to 200 Birds a day isn't uncommon. They can be on the wild side....but they screw up often enough...Hell, one even flew into a telephone line and killed itself.... wink


Just accepting my vest will have ME, NH and VT fishing and hunting licenses in it when we get up there.

We're hunting 22-24 Oct with an outfit out of Wagner SD (IIRC) - Hatari has it set up. Flying in and out of Sioux Falls on the aluminum tube. We don't have a dog right now, another situation to be rectified in retirement. I hesitate to put the breed and line I'm interested in on here to avoid starting a religious war grin I'll do it gun dogs as I get serious about the search.

Unless the right Spanish falls into my lap I'l take the Beretta 682 Sporting I've had since 1990
Posted By: battue Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/17/21
Your Parker Repro 16 would work well aso... wink

For conversation....

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]
Posted By: Pugs Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/17/21
Originally Posted by battue
Your Parker Repro 16 would work well aso... wink

For conversation....

[Linked Image from live.staticflickr.com]


Nice - My 16 is skeet and skeet and I'm a little concerned about 16 gauge availability this year out there but George DeVries has offered to hook me up so TBD.
Posted By: bobmn Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/17/21
MD: My guess is the forest matured. Grouse thrive in aspen 8-13 years best with mark decline at 18 years. 20,000 stems per hectare is a good density.
Posted By: battue Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/17/21
Skeet and Skeet wouldn't be my first choice...George is a great guy who has more than a little experience with S.D. Pheasants....

RST is another resource...however right now the Covid supply chain interruptions has limited their offerings. Have some orders in with them...however not sure of what their availability will be come fall. If you want to try them, I would advise getting on the waiting list.

May have to start pulling the handle on my 16 Gauge reloader...Primers are the only problem right now, however friends has enough to share.
Posted By: battue Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/17/21
Originally Posted by bobmn
MD: My guess is the forest matured. Grouse thrive in aspen 8-13 years best with mark decline at 18 years. 20,000 stems per hectare is a good density.


Early stage prime Deer and Ruffed Grouse habitat have much in common...As it matures the Deer can hang on, but the Grouse will dwindle.

There has been a good bit of clear cutting going on in the Pa ANF...5000 acres per year for a while...And the Marsellis gas boom made a lot of edge cover...the Deer started to come back in those areas...but the Grouse didn't even come close to historic numbers. And the Grouse can find a meal up higher than the Deer. In good cover there is more than enough food for both. Something else is getting the Grouse...Either that or their numbers went down below those required for abundant repopulation.
Posted By: Mule Deer Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/17/21
bobmn,

Yes, I'm very aware of the relationship between ruffed grouse and aspen. But this piece of land has been regularly clear-cut in various portions over decades, which tends to encourage new aspen growth. They bought the land long before the first time I visited it, around 30 years ago.

One of the members is also a professional wildlife biologist with the WV game department, and we have discussed this, more than once. (The membership also includes an actual rocket scientist, who worked for Hercules for years before retiring. It's an interesting group.)
Posted By: Pappy348 Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/17/21
Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Originally Posted by Pappy348
Once upon a time, Adams County, PA was Pheasant Heaven. No trick at all to limit out in short order on truly wild birds, plus there were some quail and rabbits were plentiful. Been pretty slim pickings since the late 70s or early 80s; planted birds, no quail, not many rabbits.

Changing land use and farming practices, the protection of predators, and maybe the return of turkeys are all factors, I think. Now you need a Pheasant stamp to hunt them, and apparently you can shoot hens too since it’s all put and take. Glad I got to experience the good old days.


Have spent some time in the eastern U.S. hunting various states, and one of the factors that has to have affected wild gamebird populations is the abundance of whitetails in many areas. One of my good friends, a custom gunsmith, has been part owner of 800 acres in West Virginia for many years. There's some fairly level ground along a creek, but most is pretty up and down, like a lot of West By God, with plenty of timber.

Back when he and his friends first bought the place as a hunting-fishing family get away, he says the ruffed grouse hunting was pretty darn good. The timber is still here, but most of the ground cover gets eaten by deer--and they hunt the deer pretty hard. I have seen plenty of deer on the place, in fact it's hard not to, but cannot remember seeing a ruffed grouse in all of my visits.


Years ago, my brother and I spoke with a land manager on one of the gamelands. He said a huge factor was the early cutting of hay, farmers trying to squeeze another crop out. Not only does it remove the cover, but he said the hens stay on the nests and get harvested along with the hay. In the area we hunted, poultry farmers bought up family farms and cleared all the cover to maximize the grain production. My grandparents place, once a mix of cedars, weeds, old apple trees, and a pond, ended up looking like the surface of Venus. No cover, no food, no birds.
Posted By: horse1 Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/17/21
Well, I can't speak for ruffs, but, for any prairie-dwelling upland game birds, this summer/fall is going to be a trying time.

Right now, anything taller than a sewing needle is falling to the sicle-bar to make "hay". Grass, CRP, and dried up cattails. Get a little deeper into fall without some rain, the remaining cattails in the Dakotas are going to resemble the oil fires in Kuwait as the Iraqis pulled out of the 1st gulf war. If we get any real winter, given the lack of remaining habitat, the prairie is going to be a fookin' wasteland.
Posted By: 300_savage Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/17/21
Horse1 said it well. Along with drought that is severe, we got hit with quarter size hail and wind June 10. As the rancher who leases the place put it, a jackrabbit would have to pack a lunch to cross our east pasture. Think it will be a bad bird year. Hoping the coyotes are hungry though.....might try a little coyote hunting as soon as we get a little moisture, if we do. I won't fire a gun recreationally out there this summer; it's just too dry..
Posted By: 300_savage Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/17/21
Originally Posted by battue
Originally Posted by horse1
Clays cannot however prepare you for what your reaction might be to flushing game birds, only flushing game birds can prepare you for flushing game birds.

.


Agree completely...and I'm guilty of the sin. Partially developed from hunting Ruffed Grouse for so many years. You hear the flush, look for the Bird and most times best get a shot off before they are gone..Not always..but most times. Now that I don't hear as well....fortunately or unfortunately....depending on the player...they are much more likely to escape.

The cackling flush of a sharptail still ups my heart rate about 20 points. Love it.
Posted By: 10gaugemag Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/17/21
Originally Posted by Pappy348
Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Originally Posted by Pappy348
Once upon a time, Adams County, PA was Pheasant Heaven. No trick at all to limit out in short order on truly wild birds, plus there were some quail and rabbits were plentiful. Been pretty slim pickings since the late 70s or early 80s; planted birds, no quail, not many rabbits.

Changing land use and farming practices, the protection of predators, and maybe the return of turkeys are all factors, I think. Now you need a Pheasant stamp to hunt them, and apparently you can shoot hens too since it’s all put and take. Glad I got to experience the good old days.


Have spent some time in the eastern U.S. hunting various states, and one of the factors that has to have affected wild gamebird populations is the abundance of whitetails in many areas. One of my good friends, a custom gunsmith, has been part owner of 800 acres in West Virginia for many years. There's some fairly level ground along a creek, but most is pretty up and down, like a lot of West By God, with plenty of timber.

Back when he and his friends first bought the place as a hunting-fishing family get away, he says the ruffed grouse hunting was pretty darn good. The timber is still here, but most of the ground cover gets eaten by deer--and they hunt the deer pretty hard. I have seen plenty of deer on the place, in fact it's hard not to, but cannot remember seeing a ruffed grouse in all of my visits.


Years ago, my brother and I spoke with a land manager on one of the gamelands. He said a huge factor was the early cutting of hay, farmers trying to squeeze another crop out. Not only does it remove the cover, but he said the hens stay on the nests and get harvested along with the hay. In the area we hunted, poultry farmers bought up family farms and cleared all the cover to maximize the grain production. My grandparents place, once a mix of cedars, weeds, old apple trees, and a pond, ended up looking like the surface of Venus. No cover, no food, no birds.

And my cousin wonders why he doesn't see the game on his place like he used to. He has that place looking like a golf course.
Posted By: Pappy348 Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/18/21


Shot two rounds today with the O/U and the Fastfire. Did much better than I did before without it. It doesn’t keep me from stopping my swing or my other sins, but it helps me see them. I can hunt upland birds with this it seems, not just turkeys or deer with slugs. The A5 will continue to be my target gun though. Not only does it fit me, but shells are available, if very dear.
Posted By: Mule Deer Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/18/21
Optical sights can work well for "wingshooting." whether real birds or clays. Started experimenting with them in the 1990s, and they definitely helped some of my friends (and even me) especially with shotguns that didn't fit perfectly.

That said, they do offend some purists. One of my buddies at the time said they encouraged "bad habits," such as not mounting and cheeking the gun the same way every time. Also took one, mounted on my Remington 870 12-gauge (purchased new from J.C. Penney in 1979, believe it or not), to an informal clays shoot at a friend's place back then. Most of the participants were fans/owners of classic side-by-sides--and most broke more clays with the 870 than they did with their guns--even though they obviously weren't cheeking the 870 very firmly or consistently.

Dunno what all that means, but there it is....
Posted By: Pappy348 Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/18/21
What it means to me is I can shoot a gun that doesn’t necessarily fit all that well and still hit some stuff. This gun, a CZ Redhead Premier All Terrain, is light and handy, and with the sight I can pretty much hunt anything within its range limits. We have some overlap of seasons here, which means I can carry a couple of slugs while hunting birds and pop a deer of opportunity, or even a bear if one happens by. It also is finished in dull green Cerakote, and has swivel studs. Very practical, if not very fetching.

I once owned a very pretty little Ithaca SKB 280E SXS given to me by my brother when he “upgraded” to a straight-grip Superposed. Like the Browning, he had refinished the stock in oil, and also had the receiver rust-blued. Problem was, I struggled to hit anything with it, even those “easy” ringnecks. Funny part was, he had been pretty deadly with the SKB, but never was as good with his upgrade.
Posted By: 338Rules Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/19/21
Originally Posted by battue
Skeet and Skeet wouldn't be my first choice...George is a great guy who has more than a little experience with S.D. Pheasants....

May have to start pulling the handle on my 16 Gauge reloader...Primers are the only problem right now, however friends has enough to share.


A 16 ga pheasant gun, should get light modified and improved modified in a fixed choke SxS or O/U field gun.
( 3/8 + 5/8 )

Tighter works, but loose is lost birds.

Skeet & Skeet is a 25” Churchill standard for instinct shooters
Posted By: catnthehat Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/19/21
Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Captain Charles Askins (Askins the Elder) wrote some good stuff on shotguns and bird hunting as well. If you can find a copy of his 1931 book GAME BIRD SHOOTING it not only has a lot to say about shotguns, dogs, etc. but is great look at what upland bird hunting and waterfowling was like in America during the early 20th century.

Askins the Younger also had at least one book out, I have one .
A very " interesting take on things for sure.....
Cat
Posted By: HitnRun Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/20/21
Originally Posted by battue


Addition...And we can't forget that for perhaps 40 years I chased Ruffed Grouse to the extreme..30 to 40 flushes a day in the good times.


30-40 flushes a day doesn’t sound like you hit much of what you were shooting at.
Posted By: Mule Deer Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/20/21
Hearing a ruffed grouse flush doesn't mean you get a shot--or even see it.
Posted By: gnoahhh Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/20/21
Let alone being humbled by seen flushes that are nigh impossible to hit.

Many years ago I had a hunting pard who couldn't hit a bull in the ass with a scoop shovel. His solution: try different shotguns instead of actually learn to shoot. Grouse score: zero. One day he showed up with an original Winchester M97 trench gun. "The wide pattern should fix things." As we clawed our way through a jungle of white pines a bird rocketed straight up from under his feet. He shot from the hip and took its head clean off, at a distance of maybe 12 feet. From that point on he had found his perfect grouse gun. Never mind the fact that he never killed another grouse, ever.
Posted By: 5sdad Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/20/21
Thread title sounds like a line from a Roger Miller song.
Posted By: 10gaugemag Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/20/21
Originally Posted by gnoahhh
Let alone being humbled by seen flushes that are nigh impossible to hit.

Many years ago I had a hunting pard who couldn't hit a bull in the ass with a scoop shovel. His solution: try different shotguns instead of actually learn to shoot. Grouse score: zero. One day he showed up with an original Winchester M97 trench gun. "The wide pattern should fix things." As we clawed our way through a jungle of white pines a bird rocketed straight up from under his feet. He shot from the hip and took its head clean off, at a distance of maybe 12 feet. From that point on he had found his perfect grouse gun. Never mind the fact that he never killed another grouse, ever.

Never have hunted grouse but if most people would actually pattern their guns with different chokes they would realize that within 10-15 yards there isn't a whole lot of difference in overall spread.

The tighter choke will have a hotter center but overall pattern differences don't start opening up until 20sh yards.
Posted By: oldwoody2 Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/20/21
Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Hearing a ruffed grouse flush doesn't mean you get a shot--or even see it.
Posted By: oldwoody2 Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/20/21
AMEN !!!
Posted By: Mule Deer Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/20/21
10gaugemag,

Actually, there can be a definite difference in pattern spread at 15-20 yards, depending on several factors. At 10 yards not so much, but even when ruffed grouse hunting few shots are taken at 10 yards.

Quite a few experienced ruffed grouse hunters prefer a double-barrel with a VERY open choke, combined with a much tighter choke. This was the combination suggested by the late Frank Woolner, a good writer very experienced in hunting ruffed grouse in New England. The reason for the tight-choked second shot was to make sure enough shot got through leaves to kill a bird. After trying this combo myself I like it too, and have hunted ruffs (and other forest grouse) in several states and Canadian provinces.

But I will also note that pattern spread also depends a LOT on the load, in fact often far more than choke. This isn't exactly secret information, but unless somebody actually does pattern their gun it's hard to comprehend.
Posted By: battue Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/21/21
Originally Posted by HitnRun
Originally Posted by battue


Addition...And we can't forget that for perhaps 40 years I chased Ruffed Grouse to the extreme..30 to 40 flushes a day in the good times.


30-40 flushes a day doesn’t sound like you hit much of what you were shooting at.


Correct on not seeing every Bird and having Birds that you don’t pull the trigger. And then there are days when you just miss…combined with days when it seems easy.

Wisconsin had a 5 Bird per day limit…and then 40 flushes per day was easy…if you had to kill 5 to make it a great day…well you went home disappointed more often than not.

Can’t post cover pics right now…but when I get home will give you an idea..

Have one Michigan cover pic where a Bud and I put up 50 some Woodcock in a little over an hour. The actual shooting was slim. His Setter pointed a Grouse 4 times or so in a couple hundred yards…it finally flushed when the cover ran out. We heard it…but never saw it.

Pa strip mine covers gave a lot more open chances than other States Aspen cuts

Had a Springer that we figured brought back somewhere over 200 to us. So we hit a few…and the rest have added to total

The old timers said when hunting Grouse, two of the most important things you can take with you is a good pair of legs and ears.
Posted By: battue Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/21/21
Originally Posted by HitnRun
Originally Posted by battue


Addition...And we can't forget that for perhaps 40 years I chased Ruffed Grouse to the extreme..30 to 40 flushes a day in the good times.


30-40 flushes a day doesn’t sound like you hit much of what you were shooting at.


Brought back some memories….

Bud and I flushed a Grouse…and it flew down into this gut that went a couple hundred yards. He said let’s follow it up.
By the time we made it to the bottom….5-10 minutes….30 some went of that Aspen jungle. Didn’t kill a one and only shot at a couple.

(That same hunt, 6 of us and 8 Dogs….hunting in groups of 2 killed 123…and seemed to have left as many as when we arrived. Again….we hit a few. Each pair were flushing at least 40 a day. 120 flushes a day x 5 = 700 flushes total….minimum. Yet only 123 were hit. I guess you are mostly correct.)

7 or 8 get up together…and you have a SxS…two chances are the max you are going to get. 😉



(Gotta go…second day of a shoot…I’ll be working on trying to improve my shooting….however, not much I can do about my ears….🤨)

Posted By: Pappy348 Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/27/21
Received my copy of Shotguns for Wingshooting today. Very nice, and autographed by both JB and that woman that lets him live in her house.

My weekend is now planned. Thanks.
Posted By: Mule Deer Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/27/21
Glad it showed up fine!

That woman who lets me live in her house decided to sign it too, since she took a bunch of the photos!
Posted By: Bay_Dog Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/28/21
Who was the Winchester Engineer that did all the studies on shot string with radar and such? He wrote several articles that were really interesting considering the time frame in which he was writing them.
Posted By: Mule Deer Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/28/21
I can't remember his name, but Winchester/Browning brought his set-up to a publicity sporting clays shoot in California years ago (apparently too many ears ago for me!), and it was fascinating to watch the patterns appear on-screen!
Posted By: Pappy348 Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/28/21
Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Glad it showed up fine!

That woman who lets me live in her house decided to sign it too, since she took a bunch of the photos!


Seems fair to me.

BTW, I PM’d her about my Sous Vide experiment with a chewy venison round steak. Let her know please.
Posted By: carbon12 Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/28/21
MD,

Do you recall what make the .22 pump grandma use to wingshoot birds was? I recall you telling the story in Western Skies and other publications but no mention as to what the make was. Likely it made no difference to her but I find myself curious.
Posted By: GF1 Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/28/21
Likely an 1890 or 1906…?
Posted By: Mule Deer Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/28/21
I was a Winchester, but I don't know whether it was an 1890 or 1906.
Posted By: swarf Re: Gun writers on Shotguns - 08/28/21
By now I am probably an also ran, but I'll list a few off of my shelf.

1. The shotgunner's Book by Col. Charles Askins 2. Sure Hit Shotgun Ways by Francis E. Sell. Somewhere I have something by Jack O'connor, and can't find it.

I always thought that Don Zutz was the best technical person. I always thought that his thoughts on the Cutts Compensator were great. I think of the Cutts as the original backboring. Don zutz wrote many things for the annual Gun Digest. I think he also could be found in the American Rifleman at times. Forgive old age.

For some reason I kept a paperback. An Outdoorlife Skill Book titled Game Bird Hunting coppyright 1965. It seems very inclusive about guns, various game, and methods. I probably last consulted it in the early 70's about ptarmigan while stationed in Alaska during the early 70's.

Francis E. Sell also did a good book on deer rifles I have somewhere.
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