I have been reading a lot of older threads here on the campfire and basically, what seems to come quite a bit is professional hunters and outfitters recommending cup and core bullets for deer size game and premium bullets like the partition, accubonds and ttsx for elk size game. They are talking about the deep penetrating bullets for elk not working as well on deer sized game. Bring something a little more fragile to hunt light skinned, smaller bodied animals like deer. I was thinking of loading some light for caliber TTSX bullets for mule deer and open prairie hunting here in Wyoming, but would I be better with ballistic tips or just Hornady interlocks, Sierra Gamemaster etc. What is the general thinking on this topic with modern bullets?

I like two holes. C&C sometimes haven’t given me that. They also may cause more meat damage, even if you miss the shoulder, because of fragments or maybe “cavitation”. Bullets that stay together are better for angled shots.

All this is in general terms. Some C&C are pretty stout, and funny stuff happens with all of them. I like Partitions because they worked well on the deer I shot with them, but so have a couple of BTs. Been trying to kill some with bonded and monos, but the past few years I’ve done all my deer-killing with razor-sharp steel. I did kill a couple of foxes with 6mm LRXs, and can tell you for certain that they expanded pretty well!

The TTSX, in every variation I've seen, has worked very well on WT and MD. While I use other bullets when shots get long (over about 300-400 meters), I long ago came to appreciate the lack of lead fragments in my meat when using monos.

I also have tended to use more monolithic, non-lead bullets over the past dozen years or so. These have not just been TTSXs but Cutting Edge Raptors, Hornady GMXs and Nosler E-Tips. Plastic tips pretty much guarantee expansion, something that didn't always happen with TSXs, and aside from the lack of lead fragments, the monos ruin less meat than cup-and-cores, or even bonded lead-core bullets. Maybe 2-3 years ago I was writing an article about lead-free bullets and, after looking at my hunting notes, discovered that Eileen and I had taken 70% of our big game animals in the previous 3 years with monolithics.

An elk guide I know uses a 300 RUM. He swears by the 180 BT at 3300 fps or so. The BT is, I think, a stout C&C.

Yep, it was upgraded to one of the "heavy jacket" BTs several years ago, primarily because so many hunters wanted to use it on elk.

A local friend of mine used one in his .300 Weatherby to shoot a cow elk that was facing him at around 200 yards. He recovered the bullet from under the hide of the rump.

I've used the 180BT on several elk out of my 300 RUM. Penetrates very well and kill very abruptly. I can't say the same about the monos I've used out of the same gun.

Yes, you are overthinking it.

You have a good grasp on how different bullets perform. Go with what you prefer.

I am a big fan of mono's. Being a long time bowhunter, I like two holes.

Being a long time meat hunter. I like less meat loss, and the lack of finding lead fragments when processing.

With all of that being said I have shot 6 deer/antelope/black bear with lead bullets over the last couple of years. 6.5 129gr Interlock, 277 143gr ELD-X, 338 200gr Ballistic silvertip and Accubond.

I did shoot my antelope last weekend with a 55gr GMX out of my 222.

The cup and core bullets generally work well on deer sized game, especially for behind the shoulder shots. You might have a little more meat damage on high velocity short distance shots.

On the other hand, I've used accubonds quite a bit on deer, and they can also do considerable meat damage depending on shot placement. My experience is they always exit on deer size game although they might not on a front to back shot on a larger deer.

The mono metals work well and may do less meat damage. In some cases, the animal might run a little further before dropping.

We have lots of good bullets. That leaves plenty of room for personal preference, which is a good thing.

We (wife and I) have been using Barnes’ since the early ‘90’s. One bullet weight for all game.....from Antelope/Deer up through moose! She 225 TTSX’s, myself...... well, I did drop down to a 250 TTSX several years ago! Can’t wait to get some 270 LRX’s 😉 memtb

I've never understood the two holes thing. Monos often leave such small holes that they leak much less blood than just the entrance of a cup and core.

Cup and core passing thru the boiler room works for me.
I don't eat the ribs or organs.
Don't need a blood trail or a second hole should there not be one.

Two holes generally means more blood on the ground, and more wiped off on vegetation as the critter goes through cover. Where I hunt, a lot of the cover is head-high weeds, with hummocks of grass and other stuff below, some of it red in color. Blood that drips out may fall into places you can’t see, so blood higher up is helpful. Also, an exit will likely spray some blood and hair, providing proof of a hit and maybe evidence of what sort. They don’t always bleed right away, even when hit with a powerful rifle, just as they don’t always drop, even when hit very hard in the right place. Tracking in the woods on leaves is much easier than in tall brushy weeds, where tracks are very hard to see.

A higher hit usually means the body cavity has to fill up more before blood starts leaking out .That is true with one hole or two. I never worry about it. Most ML hits don't exit, I have learned to be more selective of where I shoot and elk or deer.Just because I see one, does not mean I will pull the trigger.

One rule I follow,the faster the bullet,the better construction is needed

Generalisations don't tell us much when it concerns application. I use, and have used, mostly "big bores" over the past three decades for all hunting from wolf to moose. Most of the areas I've hunted don't allow long range shooting, with one exception being the far north of our Province in old clear cuts. There I've used medium bores like .338 magnums, .375 H&H and even a "hot" loaded 350gr TSX from my .458 Win at 2700 fps. Closer to home, that 350gr TSX went through a black bear without expansion with a good hit at 100 yards. That bear ran farther than any bear I've killed with .45-70s using "softer" flat-nose bullets. In fact, the soft-nose 405 gr Remington from my 1895 Marlin dropped a bear on the spot, DRT, at the same location as the one that ran for 70 yards! Impact velocity from the 405 Rem was over 1800 fps, and impact velocity from the 350 TSX was over 2400 fps. I've killed a lot of bears with .458 calibers, but a flat tip heavy bullet at modest velocity is a faster killer than a fast monolithic with a tiny cavity in the nose. I lost one of my best bears ever to the original 200gr X-Bullet at 2800 fps MV and impact over 2500 fps from my .35 Whelen. The bullet never expanded. Yeah, I know.... get 'em with that plastic tip! Actually, I like the 300gr TSX better from my .458 at much higher
velocities than the 350 to insure expansion. And you can get 'em with a BT and plastic tip! Barnes says they will expand on game down to 1400 fps... but the proof is in the pudding. The 300gr TSX/.458 has been successfully used on brown bear! No stress in my .458 Win in a Ruger #1 at +2900 fps MV. But I still prefer heavy at modest velocity in my usual habitats closer to home.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

I've devolved back to using Hornady Interlocks. Took a really nice oryx last year with a 180 from a 308. This year, I 'm deer hunting with 130s in my 6.8.

Last 10 years, I've mostly used NBTs. I've never had a problem with various NBTs in different cartridges. They usually dropped them on the spot.

Never fired a monmetal bullet other than cast.

But...I read a bunch, and pickup up some ideas.
Mule Deer has touched on these, but not in this thread.

Where you put them, and bullet speed, are very important.

Personally have seen poor bullet performance at too low speeds,
And failure at too high of speeds, with cup and core.

The first resulted in poor killing, and several lost animals.
(I know, lost provides no evidence. But in this instance I lost several
animals. More than the rest of my hunting combined. And im only considering where there were blood trails. Only kept using it untill I became.
convinced it wasn't me)

The second was proven in recovered animals.
One, an elk ground to hamburger, before it died. Wish I had a picture of
The Corelock against the spine, in powdered metal form.
Did no noticeable damage to the bone. 140gr 7 mag wasn't a great choice!

It seems velocity is more important for quick kills with mono's.
With bone contact being another big factor in getting good results.

Another thing is what do you want?
Quick, on the spot kills. Or is a run, and tracking job just fine.
What about meat damage?

Or are you looking to eliminate lead?

Have used partitions on deer.
Even they are a little behind GK/PH or BT's for quick kills in my use.
(Only consider non CNS hits. CNS hits don't mean squat. Any bullet
is great when you scramble the nerves)


Hope this gets a response from MD.
He has more experience, with more bullets than I.
And much better communication skills.

I'm with the 2 hole crowd.

30-06 150 TSX

My vote would be OK for TTSX especially in open country. In my very limited experience with them, you can expect up to 30 yards of movement after the hit, which is acceptable to me for sure.

Although when hunting deer in brushy, thick vegetation, or tall CRP I would prefer something like your Interlock, Hotcor, or BT. they tend to drop with fewer steps. IMHO

I forgot to mention that cup and core penetration/expansion is not usually an either or trade-off on deer. I.ve had a 7mm 145 Speer Hotcor exit from a full body length of penetration on a whitetail. bullet entered front right shoulder and exited left ham.

Yep, I don't use smaller caliber or light bullets.
150 7mm to 180 30's. They usually go through.

120 in the Sweede is ok, not enough use to judge yet.


Even 100's in 243 penetrate often.

Yep. Heavy for caliber cup and core bullets are moderate speeds work EXTREMELY well for almost anything. They don't ruin much meat either.

Thanks for the insight and opinions!

Yep. Heavy for caliber cup and core bullets are moderate speeds work EXTREMELY well for almost anything. They don't ruin much meat either. [/quoteX

Have seen that performance with 150gr Interlocks out of a 270. Shot a 225# boar in TX that penetrated stern to bow. Broke left hip and exited offside between shoulder and neck. No tracking needed on that one.

Where I typically hunt, a critter running 100 yards is no big deal but. I completely understand the issues that could arise in other terrain.

Ironic how the same old s--t that worked last year, last decade, last century,
still works.

Been tempted to try the mono bullets.
But dam they are expensive, and I'm cheap.
Got lots of old stuff sitting in ammo boxes waiting to be loaded.

And after the experiences I had with the Sweede and a load that
just didn't work for me, I sure as heck want to avoid that again.

Most of critters I have shot with monos have been with 30 caliber versions at high velocities from a 300 win mag, wsm or RUM. Not once have they leaked blood like a Nosler BT from the same rifles. Just one of the trade offs of mono bullets.

All I’ve shot so far with monos is a couple of foxes, and one buck killed with a head-on spinal that didn’t exit (ML), so don’t have much (any) data yet. Mostly I use BT and Partitions, and have some bonded bullets in the que. All shot with the NPs and BTs had nice juicy exit wounds, except one frontal neck shot with an old, original BT that pretty much just disappeared. I try to keep my hits low in the chest so the blood starts leaking out quickly, but sometimes that doesn’t happen.

OTOH, C&Cs that failed to exit didn’t provide much of a trail either. Two little holes are better than one little one, I suspect. Which monos did you use? I have 6mm LRXs loaded up for my 6CM and some 130gr TTSXs ready to try in a .308.

EDIT: Also, what did those monos do on the inside? I can trade a big, juicy exit wound for mushed-up innards.
Thanks.

Sierra Game Kings and Hornady Inter-loks have always killed whitetails dead for me, Hornady XTP's in .44 Magnum rifle or handgun are my bullet of choice.

If I had to go mono (lead free) I'd be onto the CEB Raptor. They're expensive but very accurate and the terminal performance is sorta like a Partition, petals flying off early on, the core boring thru. Effective bullets.

I also like Sierra HPBT on WT's, very accurate and good tissue damage. The 120 NBT out of my 7-08 at 3K has been effective, not as expansive as the Sierra, but deadly. I've killed WT's and hogs with TTSX's in several rifles; they end up hanging at the skinning shed.

My 240 Wby HS Precision prefers the 100 NPT. I like to use bullets that the rifle likes and if they shoot good, I like them, too. They all kill stuff.

Us Loonies probably do over think all this. But, ain't it fun....

DF

165gr HP Gamekings were my goto bullet for a while. Quick killers.

My sole experience with a 130gr .270 IL was a no-exit, no-blood one, that gave me considerable trouble. Not typical, I suppose, but no fun for Grandpa either.

I'm just fine with most cup/cores when going medium to heavy for caliber or not pushing them too fast, in calibers 6.5mm and above. Nothing wrong with your average Interlock or Ballistic Tip in .26 to .35cal if it's not going much over 2,800 or so. If I'm going faster than that (or smaller than that), I usually want a tougher bullet to ensure good penetration and increase odds of an exit. In those cases, I'd rather have a moderate exit and blood trail from a Partition or TTSX 80-90% of the time than have awesome exits/trails from a cup/core but only 60% of the time. Many bowhunters say the same thing about broadheads when discussing big expendables vs. penetrators. What do you value most in terms of performance and cost? That should be your guide.

I always think there are two reasons to use premium bullets .... Large animals and/or high velocity.

Heavy for caliber C&C from a non magnum is fine for the large ones as well lacking the high velocity. The old timers used 140gr RNs in their 6.5x55, 175gr RNs in their 7x57 and 220s in their 30-06 and these are all well known for penetration.

Yep, hair burning range is the true test of a bullet.......

Yup, it sure is!

I'm a big fan of the TTSXs but I also like SOME traditional cup and cores. One just has to match game, caliber and velocity. This weekend for example, it was opening day here in GA. Two very nice bucks brought into the scales at camp, an eight and ten point (156 and 172 lb respectively) were taken with the (gay) 6.5 Creeds at ranges of 60 and 80 yards (more or less) using 140gr Nosler Ballistic tips. No pass through but both were lung shots but with HUGE entrance holes and LOTS of ruined meat.

I think I have asked this before.

The 140 HPBT?

Interesting. I've seen a good handful of critters shot with 140-143gr cup/cores from Manbun rifles and didn't see any big-time blow ups, ranges from 35 to 220yds. Figured it was due to the MV being between 2,600 and 2,750fps. Generally got exits on broadsides. In fairness, I have not used the 140gr Ballistic Tip though.

Were they perpendicular broadsides or were the angles of entry shallow?

We've used Ballistic Tips and SSTs at our camp for years and haven't gotten huge entrance holes and lots of ruined meat. I can't say we've used the 6.5mm 140 grain BT though.

95 grain .243 BT and SST
120 grain BT in 6.5mm and 7mm
150, 165 and 168 BT in .308
165 SST in 308

I'm sure I'm forgetting some.

Yes, 140 HPBT out of my 7-08. Good exits, good tissue damage, quick kills. And that bullet is the most accurate in my Hart barreled sporter weight 700. I have (3) consecutive 5 shot groups under half inch, actually in the .3+ range. Pretty impressive, IMO. They not traveling at 3K like the 120 NBT, but kills'em pretty quick, maybe quicker.

DF

I like the TTSX bullets, use them in the majority of my rifles, but use ballistic tips in 7 mag, partitions in 30-06, GameKings in 308. They all work real well. If I had to pick one bullet, I’d go TTSX.

They both looked perpendicular, but I do agree with you on the BTs and SSTs being toughened. Like you, I have no idea about the Creedmor's velocites, etc. All I can tell you it was pretty obvious they BTs expanded explosively

Please clarify;
If a box of BT's have the word "HUNTING" printed on the end of the box are they of the heavy jacket variety, regardless of caliber and weight?
OR
Are there some BT caliber and weight bullets that have the word "HUNTING" printed on the end of the box that are not the heavy jacket variety?

That's the problem with the ballistic tip bullets. Some are meant for varmints, while others are said to be built like a tank or have been beefed up with thicker jackets. When the ballistic tip first entered the market in the 90's, they were pretty frangible bullets. I shot a lot in my 30 cals and they didn't hold up well. I eventually stopped using them all together and went back to old tried and true cup and cores that held together better. Those consisted of Hornady interlocks, Winchester power points, and even the Sierra game kings. When I used the gamekings, I always shot heavy for caliber/cartridge pills. Examples of that are the 200gr 30 cal in my magnums, and 250gr in my 338 win mags. Those bullets worked very well, but you have to expect the core is going to separate from the jacket more times than not. I will take that over the bullet simply exploding on contact and causing excessive blood shot meat and waste. Other guys don't seem to be bothered that the bullet of their choice is going to ruin a lot of eats, as long as it puts the animal on the ground. A lot of those guys don't care how many shots it takes either. To them, its more about killing I guess. I actually like to eat deer and elk, so I'm going to use a bullet that generally punches a hole clean through, kills with 1 shot and creates the least amount of ruined blood shot meat.

No, not all of the HUNTING Ballistic Tips have the heavy jacket. As far as I know, the heavy-jacket models start with the 165-grain .30, and go up from there. The heavy-jackets tend to act more like Partitions--the few I have recovered retained an average of 60% in weight, even if they lost the core, because the jacket's so heavy. (There are exceptions, like the 120-grain 7mm, which has a lot of jacket compared to the core.)

The smaller-caliber Ballistic Tips tend to retain about as much weight as Hornady Interlock Spire Points--or they have over the past decade or more. The few I've recovered have averaged about 50% weight retention, give or take 10%--which is about what the few Interlocks I've recovered have retained. A good example of a high-impact shot would be the 100-grain from a .257 Roberts that I put into the shoulder of a big Montana whitetail doe (as heavy or heavier than many South Texas bucks) that was quartering strongly toward me at 50 yards. Found it under the skin at the rear of the ribcage on the opposite side, weighing 41.7 grains.

Jorge,

Those 140 Ballistic Tips from 6.5 Creedmoors might have been very old stock. A good friend uses the 140s from his .26 Nosler at close to 3300 fps, and hasn't had the slightest difficulty with penetration even on big mule deer.

Big difference, old vs new.

I ‘bout wrote’em off. Now back using them.

DF

You and me both DF.

Me too. But I still reserve them for deer and smaller. Except for my 243's, then it's pronghorns or smaller.

Now that you're vulnerable, I dare you to read the "deceased by Scenar" thread, and go down that rabbit hole...

Just got off a 20 minute conversation with Nosler. I called a friend who has worked at Nolser since the early 90's, he was busy so directed me over to another person (Mike) who is the Ballistic Tip guy, and was nice enough to answer my questions in detail.

I asked him about different jacket thickness in various BT's and how much they expand and how tough they are. He said jacket thickness is only a minor part of expansion, instead core hardness is the biggest factor in how much BT's expand, and every caliber and weight has a specific core hardness, and the hourglass shape of the core (see a cutaway of the Ballistic Tip), will vary to control expansion. The thickness of the base will also be specific to a bullet in each caliber and weight, and will be a factor in expansion. He also said the Ballistic Tip is not an elk bullet, and he does not recommend it for elk regardless of caliber or weight. He does recommend most of the Accubonds for elk, which he says expands slower than the BT.

Another tidbit I was not aware of is the Partition front and rear lead core are of a different hardness, and again the hardness of the two cores will vary with caliber and bullet weight, with jacket thickness being a small part of the expansion equation.

He was also careful to emphasized Noslers bullets are not drawn, but instead extruded. That's been discussed on here in detail before.

That’s pretty interesting. I run the 140 BTs up to 3200 from my 264 Win and I haven’t began to keep one in a buck yet. They also faired real well in water jugs, penetrated and held together as the same load using Accubonds. Hard to believe the little CM tore them up that badly.

The 180 .308’s, 95 .243 and 150 .277 are a few others that have worked real well too.

Disregard.
No need to get disagreements going.

I used to read that years ago. I got a lot of information from Dober before he left the site. I miss his information and delivery. I dont think about the scenar much because I cant buy them off the shelf anywhere here in town and I never see them. I do have a 50 round box of 6.5x55 loaded up with scenars that I bought on a clearance sale at Midway or something. I have not used them on game. I know Dober loved the Scenar.

We have had real good luck with the .308 165/168 and .243 95 as well. 2 oryx, a bear and an elk fell to the 165 last year and they all behaved great, granted, one oryx and the elk were small. I consider the oryx tougher on bullets than elk, and I have seen 4 oryx taken with the 165 BT and all worked well.


I’ll take Nosler with a grain of salt until I see otherwise. Doesn’t make business sense to say one bullet out of the line works from mouse to moose.

I have been given somewhat different information from Nosler over the past 30 years, though not from Mike:

Yes, core hardness is a major part of the performance of Ballistic Tips (as it is with many bullets), especially the first "Hunting" versions they brought out, which proved to be too expansive. This was because they were basically the same bullet as the Nosler Solid Base--but with a plastic tip. In my experience the Solid Bases were pretty tough bullets, and I used them in calibers from .224 to .30 on big game. But the tip changed things, because a BIG hollow-point was required to insert the tip.

Some of the early Ballistic Tip "Hunting" bullets were definitely OK. One was the 140 7mm, which I used in the 7x57 at around 2900 fps for years on deer-sized game, and never recovered one. But many were were not. The 115 .25 was one.... (The same thing happened when Hornady introduced the SST, but they fixed that as well.)

The heavy-jacket Ballistic Tips (which as mentioned earlier started with the 200-grain .338 in the early 1990s) were indeed much tougher, and the jacket was a LOT heavier. I first tested them in dry newspaper and they penetrated almost as deeply as the 210 Partition. Used them a lot in the .338 Winchester Magnum after that, and among other animals, one dropped a big gemsbok at around 150-175 yards. The bull stood quartering toward me, and the bullet broke both the right shoulder and the spine. Found it under the skin of the left ham, retaining 59.4% of its original weight. That was not surprising, since in the "heavy jacket" B-Tips the jacket is around 75% of the total weight. In fact, when the 200 .338 was first introduced, the late Chub Eastman said it kind of resembled a monolithic with a little bit of lead behind the plastic tip.

I'm not going to overthink. I have some factory 270 win loaded with that Federal Trophy Copper bullet that will be used and also have 270 cal Partitions to reload once that supply dries up.

My favorite rifle is my Ruger compact rifle and it's in 338RCM. I've got about 700 old Hornady 250gr roundnose for it I've collected since 2016. I seriously need to load those in that little freak and get some game with it instead of the premiums I've been using. My only legit complaint about Partitions and cup and cores is that they leave tiny lead and antimony fragments in the meat that are impossible to completely remove without tossing a large amount of meat.

I posted this earlier in the post. Need to change it to "we are overthinking it"

I have not shot/witnessed as many critters being shot as some on here. But after seeing and putting hundreds of critters in the freezer. I can honestly say I have never lost an animal due to bullet construction. Every issue has been attributed to less than optimum shot placement.

I have some interesting anecdotes that made me go hmmm. But they are examples of one.

I prefer mono's for reasons stated earlier, but I have certainly taken and seen plenty tagged with standard bullets.

Self admittedly, my only lack of experience would be using Berger's, Scenars, hollow point type etc. I acknowledge they work. But I have zero interest using them on big game.

Lied earlier.

Have used the 250gr Expanders in an inline.
They have a hollow point bigger than some bullets, and they expand big.
My choice in the Omega.

But that's so far off "normal", its not pertinent.

I read it a few months ago a swallowed enough Kool-Aid that I decided to see for myself this year. I'm leaving for Montana in two days with three tags in my pocket and .308 155 Scenars and 6.5mm 139 Scenars, both loaded to 2800 FPS.
With the exception of one Pronghorn that fell to a 225 SGK out of my Whelen back in the early '90s, I can't remember ever having killed a critter with anything but a Nosler or Barnes. But the success stories on that thread made me want to give Scenars a try this year. They sure are accurate.
And yes, I do overthink it too...

Cheers,
Rex

Good luck on the hunt!

The premium bullets that are good for elk etc work fine on smaller game and don't blast so many lead fragments everywhere you have to pick out (or find with your teeth). The cost difference is so small it's not worth having a second load for smaller animals. Just use A-Frames and Terminal Ascents on everything.

LB, you have a line on where the TA's are available?

TRex, good luck on your hunt. You're going to love those 139's in that 6.5, guaranteed. I've shot quite a few whitetail does, a big muley buck, and loads of hogs from 50-350lbs with them and they are a killing machine.

Not really important in this conversation, but Ballistic Tips were introduced
before the 1990's, Guessing 84-85. I started reloading in 87 and they
had been around awhile. Still working out of 100 count boxes in 165gr.
Bought all the stock a shop had in a going out of business sale around
1993.

Don't know if they are tough or not. In a 660 308 they have been
great. Reasonably meat damage, quick kills. Usually full penetration.

In a 300Win with 76g 4350 (do not replicate without caution) they were
still ok. But only killed 3 or 4 deer with it




About the load.

Young, dumb.... guy told me it was a great load if not too hot for your gun. By the 3rd round new primers fall out. Havent used the gun/load in years. I keep
thinking those rounds need to be disassembled. If shot in a tighter gun, they
could be a problem.

I use c&c for deer and hogs. Nosler partitions for elk. I like simplicity.

At 308 speeds the 100 count boxed 165 grain bullets were fine on deer.

mathman,

So were the 140-grain 7mm B-Tips on deer and pronghorn, at any range out to 350 yards--as far as I ever shot anything with them. They killed quickly, but I never recovered one, even on angling shots through heavy bone..

As noted earlier, Nosler got the hardness/expansion right on some of the original Ballistic Tips, but not on others. But that's common with newly-introduced bullets. Have seen it a number of times over the decades, and among the bullets were the Barnes X and even TSX, Hornady SST, Swift Scirocco (which is why there's a Scirocco II) and some of the original Trophy Bonded Bear Claws. Hornady also improved their original Spire Points by adding the Interlock ring. And have found most companies will indeed modify the basic design depending on what game the particular caliber/weight the bullet might be used on. One of the mistakes Winchester made during the early days of the Fail Safe (which started out as the Talon) was making somewhat different versions for the .308/.30-06 and .300 magnums.

All of this is one reason I tend to be skeptical when anybody proclaims one or two bullets as absolutely perfect for all-around big game hunting.

Thanks! I'm hopeful.

Rex

Just sign up for notifications with everyone who carries them. I got plenty that way.

I'm not sure I could attest to any being lost due to bullet construction, but I have had occasions where results were less than pleasing due to bullet construction. For example, I have had bullets which were too fragile, and blew up before getting to the important bits, and others which were too tough and didn't seem to expand on the way through sufficiently to kill quickly.

Of course you might retort that this is all still placement: if you know the bullet is a bit fragile, slip it through the ribs and it will blow up inside the chest, and the tough ones would have worked fine if you'd spined or brained them, but I still think that those particular bullets were, if I'm charitable, outside their optimum performance window. Those selfsame fragile bullets were fine on smaller stuff, and the tough ones on bigger and perhaps close stuff.

All that said, I am probably a bit hidebound, as I tend to stick with stuff that works for me. I have had a really good run with various fairly plain-vanilla cup and core softpoints and hollowpoints on deer and pigs and the like, in a range of calibres. Some of these have accounted for lengthy runs of clean one-shot kills - numbers of pigs one after another in a single day often enough. For bigger stuff I like some of the tougher bullets, like Lapua Mega and Woodleigh.

I like to put the animal down right there. Among the shots I like on deer as a result is one to hit the brachial plexus, just behind the shoulderblade and immediately beneath the spine. A bit high and it is a spine shot, and there's major arteries a bit lower. I'm not entirely averse to neck shots either, if the opportunity is there. I will also look at a shot above the heart into the aorta which may also, depending on angle, see involvement of the lungs or other structures. That'll usually put them down pretty quick, where a shot through the heart would see them bolt, albeit usually for a short distance.

We don't have bag limits here, so I am not bothered about losing a bit of shoulder or neck meat if it means the animal drops on the spot. I also, for much the same reason, don't particularly care if the bullet doesn't exit, as long as it has smashed a broad path through important structures before fetching up, and ideally will do so from a wide range of angles. YMMV

I have had good experiences with monolithic bullets, and they shoot accurately in my rifles. I currently use 139 gr. Hornady GMX in my 7mm-08 and 150 Barnes TTSX in my .30-06, both in factory ammo. I really have no reason to change. I have only recovered one of those projectiles: a 139 gr. GMX from a decent whitetail buck shot directly from the front. The bullet entered at the junction of the neck and chest, tore up lungs along the way while traveling 2/3 the length of the deer, and finally lodging in the stomach. All others I have shot with these two projectiles have been pass-throughs, mostly through bone as I prefer shoulder shots. I have never hunted elk, and hope to some day, but I would not hesitate to use either of these projectiles on elk at reasonable distances.

I’ve been hunting Wyoming for 20 years. I’ve had good luck with my 6mm Rem with 85 grain Barnes and my Whelen with 250 grain Hornady round nosed CC. I guess the all work. As long as you do your job!

Have posted this before here, during such discussions. I have personally used the following bullets on big game:

Barnes—
Tipped Triple Shock (TTSX)
Triple Shock (TSX)
Long-Range X (LRX)
X-Bullet (original design)
XLC (blue-coated X-Bullet)
Banded Solids

Berger Hunting VLD

Cutting Edge Raptors

Fail Safe—
Both Winchester & Combined Technology

Federal—
Blue Box
Deep Shok
Red Box
Trophy Bonded Tip

Hornady—
ELD-X
GMX
InterBond
Spire Point, both Interlock & pre-Interlock
SST

Norma Oryx

North Fork Soft Point

Nosler—
AccuBond
AccuBond Long Range
Ballistic Tip
E-Tip
Partition (both turned and extruded)
Partition Gold (had a steel cup around rear core, like Fail Safe)
Solid Base
Solid Bullets

Remington—
Core-Lokt (original and post-1990)
Core-Lokt Ultra Bonded

Sierra—
GameKing
ProHunter

Speer—
Hot-Cor
Grand Slam (original and improved)
African Grand Slam Tungsten Core Solids

Swift—
A-Frame
Scirocco
Scirocco II

Trophy Bonded Bear Claw—both original and Federal versions
Trophy Bonded Sledgehammer Solid

Winchester—
Power Point
Silvertip
XP3
(As noted above, also original Fail Safes, including those called Talons)

Have also witnessed a number of other bullets being used by hunting partners,
ranging alphabetically from A-Squares to Woodleigh Weldcores.

All of them worked when used within their design parameters, whether velocity or size of game.

I used scads of the early 30 cal 180 grain BTs in a 30/06 and also 7MM 140 grain BTs shot in a 280AI.These were from the 100 count boxes and never had any problems with either.The only mono I have shot and killed anything with was a Barnes 35 cal 180 grain X bullet.I ass shot a doe just to see what would happen and the bullet was in the skin under the front right shoulder.It had a perfect mushroom and weighed 179 grains.That was shot out of a 35 Whelen.I was impressed.

40s-60s. Shoot whatever you got. Aught-Six, yo!

70s-80s. A few serious guys using Partitions. Everyone else, MAGNUM!!!! Oh, the Partition guys are MAGNUM! also.

90s-00s. Magnums! Short Magnums! Premium bullets!

10s. You don't need a magnum, just premium bullets. "Bullets matter more than headstamps."

'20s. [bleep] it, and come to think of it, bullets don't matter either. (Although maybe this is because ammo is so [bleep] expensive if you can even find it.)

you are overthinking it... like every one else seems to do...

these sales and marketing guys, have everyone in the palm of their hands...

I tend to use, bullets that have worked for decades...

companies counter guys like me, by discontinue making them...

Classic, well said.

Yep. Full circle here. Location, location, location. I'm back to using (mostly ) C&C - and "whatever" - subject to availability, price, and accuracy..

Have yet to find in my personal experience (YMMV) the NEED for premiums. I should try those TTSX. for their purported "eat right to the hole" thing, tho. The only other reason for me to use them would be using a caliber-light for large game - say the .260 on moose. Still, it worked just find with 140 Corelokts on elk....sample of one. Come to think of it, that 100 gr Corelokt in .243 worked just fine on that 3 year old bull moose my wife shot many years ago.

Listen to JB....

Note to self- try to not shoot the next one through the brisket with 150 gr , '06 Corelokt - no need to get excessive with those 3" exit wounds...



.

Mule Deer narrowed it down for us, thanks.
Only other thing I would add, here in the far west Pacific slope where shots occasionally measure out to almost a hundred yards, I use only the sleekest high G-7 ballistic coefficient VLD projectiles. The difference from the old bullets to the super sleek can spell success or failure when you are shooting at almost a hundred yards. The drop at that range is several thousandths more with the old bullets. It's a wonder them ol' timers ever kilt a thing.

Granting that I hunt whitetails only, some of them get pretty big eating soybeans and corn (farm country deer), I'd rather lose a little meat than the whole deer. I started out using Sierra Gamekings and Hornady boattails, but I had some of them that were a bit too tender, even out of a mild-loaded .270, and they didn't give very good penetration, sometimes, it wasn't enough penetration, cratering on the hides and making a mess of things. Hornady's BTSP 140s were the absolute worst bullets I've ever used, Interlocks or not, they were awful..

I haven't had any issues whatsoever after switching to flat-based bullets, though. The few NBTs I've used have been quite good, too, but overall, with accuracy and everything else considered, I tend to favor Sierra Pro-Hunters now, in 130 gr. weight. They just work well on my fat Missouri deer.

I make zero claims as to them working well on anything heavier/bigger/tougher, but for a plain old easy-to-kill whitetail, I'm happy as heck with Sierra Pro-Hunters. BANG! flop, get the tractor.
As far as that goes, I get the same end results with factory Winchester PowerPoints out of a .30/30. I wish I had more experience with other critters, but deer is where I'm at, and for deer, even a Sierra CnC works well.

ratsmacker,

I know an outfitter in eastern Montana who guides a lot of hunters to big whitetail bucks--and there are some big-bodied deer in that country, where quite a bit of corn is grown in certain areas. He HATES any kind of "premium" bullet, because they don't kill as quickly as the 160-grain Sierras he shoots in his 7mm Remington Magnum--the rifle he sometimes has to use to follow up and finish bucks shot with various premiums.

When my father was still in his magnum phase he launched 165 grain Game Kings from a 300 Winchester magnum.

RE: Ballistic tip toughness. Any BT today is plenty tough for deer size game save the varmint ones which are only made in 25 caliber and lower and not in traditional hunting weight bullets. The BT's with heavy jackets are almost too tough for standard cartridges and work excellent on elk even out of magnum cartridges. The heavy jacket versions are the toughest non bonded cup and core made.

Yep, because they're about 3/4 "monolithic."

Only definitional "failure" was reported by two friends, one the shooter - the other the finisher, on a Newf moose in the 1980s. Two 180 gr Hornady SPs from a .300 Roy splashed on the ribs, such that the other friend had to use his .338 to finish the job.
Est distance was just under 200 yds. Autopsy showed shallow penetration of the 180s just beyond the ribs. No fragments made it to the midline. Would the moose have expired without the finisher? Yes, no,, maybe.

I would be inclined to call BS were it not for the involved individuals, and my own experience with that bullet on a small whitetail one year earlier. '06, est 2600 fps impact on rib. In recoil saw a 2" hole open up and deer went down, expiring quickly. Sufficient fragments in the lungs/heart. I found the jacket remnant. One piece and had split open on the long axis resulting in a single flat piece of jacket metal. Still have it.

This is not intended as a knock on Hornady bullets. As those with long experience recognize, manufacturers sometimes have to make adjustments. In general, we get great products. And most troubles result from our failure to match bullet construction and performance requirements.

John,
When did Nosler stop offering the BT’s in .338? (other than the current Silver Ballistic Tip) Is my memory fuzzy or did they also offer a 35 cal Ballistic Tip at one time?

I don't remember the exact year the 200s became totally Ballistic Silvertips, but guess it was around a decade ago. That said, I have never been able to find any difference in performance between them.

Yes, Nosler offered .35 Ballistic Tips, if I recall correctly a 225 and maybe a 200. Could look in my older to manuals to make sure.

They also offered a 260-grain .375 Ballistic Tip very briefly. I know this because of taking some to South Africa to field-test in 2002, using my Ruger No. 1 .375 H&H (which is now owned by Campfire member Cascade). Loaded them to around 2700 fps and they worked very well, among other instances shooting lengthwise through a springbok (about the size of pronghorn), and taking two BIG gemsbok bulls, weighing around 550 pounds on the ranch's cattle scale. On the second bull the bullet broke both shoulders and exited.

But that was a year before Nosler introduced AccuBonds. At the time I was told they test-bonded all the Hunting Ballistic Tips, then shot them into media to compare whether the bonding affected penetration and expansion compared to the B-Tip version. In some bullets the bonding did help, and among them were the 260-grain .375 and 225-grain .35. So they dropped the Ballistic Tip version of both bullets, and only produced AccuBonds. In other instances they continued to produce Ballistic Tips--if I recall correctly one that passed the penetration test was the 150 7mm.

Eventually, however, the good reputation of many bonded bullets (including Accubonds) created demand from customers for AccuBond versions of some Ballistic Tips, even though Nosler's tests indicated there was no advantage in performance. Which is why there's now a 150-grain 7mm AccuBond.

Mule Deer,

Out of all those bullets, how many animals have been lost due to bullet failure?

It appears they've gone from one extreme to the other.

I guess "too tough" would depend on caliber, bullet weight and speed. Seems there can be some variation from bullet to bullet.

DF

[quote[Mule Deer,
Out of all those bullets, how many animals have been lost due to bullet failure?[/quote]

Not many. One was a young cow elk I shot with a then-new "premium" bullet, a 150-grain from a .270 Winchester, that was getting good reviews from gun writers. The range was about 75 yards, and the cow was angling away to the left. I put the bullet in the rear of the ribs, angling toward the right shoulder, and the cow disappeared into to the nearby timber. Didn't find any blood, and it was early in the season with the ground too dry and hard to show many tracks. Found her a day later, more than half a mile of rough country from where she was shot. Opened her up, and the bullet had barely made it into the left lung. The meat was soured.

I went back and read the reviews, and none of the writers had actually tested the bullet on game or in media. Instead they basically repeated what the bullet company press releases said. A few months later Bob Hagel ripped the bullet in his review, because he'd actually shot some into his sawdust/sand test media, and they failed miserably. The company eventually redesigned the bullet, and that version turned out to be very good. The failed bullet was the original Speer Grand Slam.

Lost a whitetail doe shot with a cup-and-core 150-grain .30-30 factory-load Federal roundnose bullet at around 75 yards. It was quartering toward me, and turned and ran into nearby brush, limping. Found some fragments of leg bone and a few drops of blood, but never found the deer.

Other than that I've seen bullet failures on animals that had to be shot again, but weren't lost. One was an eating-size mule deer buck I shot at 200 yards as it quarters toward me, aiming for the near shoulder. After the shot it disappeared quickly over a small ridge, limping but it left a little blood trail, and a half mile later I spotted the buck standing on a hillside, 200 yards away, it's bad leg drawn up. I shot it again in the ribs, and it dropped. Turned out the first bullet had broken the shoulder joint, but lost its core and the empty jacket was lying against the ribs behind the shoulder. That was a 150-grain Winchester Silvertip from a .30-06 factory load.

Saw my cousin shoot a big mule deer doe in the shoulder as it quartered toward us at around 100 yards, the bullet a 117-grain Hornady Interlock boattail started at around 2900 fps. The doe limped off a little ways and stood there broadside, and a second bullet through the ribs put it down. The first hadn't penetrated the ribcage, and we only found fragments.

But have also seen a couple of bullets supposedly "fail," yet kill deer. On was a 130-grain Sierra GameKing from a .270 Winchester that I put into an angling-away mule deer buck, aiming for the far shoulder. The buck dropped and never moved. Turned out the bullet had lost its jacket after only penetrating the skin--found it next to the hole during skinning--but the core ended up in the right shoulder, and killed the deer.

A similar thing happened with a 105-grain Speer Hot-Cor from a .243 Winchester on a whitetail buck at 250 yards. It shed the jacket at the entrance hole, but the core went on into the lower spine, dropping the buck. It needed a finisher, but never moved after the first shot.

Duh, I guess I could check my manuals, seeing as how I have all of them.

And yes, Nolser made 225g BT's in 35 cal. Found them in a older manual. I had two 35 Whelens at one time and thought I had bought and loaded some. I had to search and search through my chrono notebooks and finally found where I had chrono'd some loads. The manual says the tips were "buckskin" color. Don't remember that.........

Back in the early 60's when I was in my early teens I started reading Elmer Keith and thought what ever he said was darn near gospel. Before my Dad move us to Alaska in 1965 I had never shot at a big game animal.

After I was discharged in 1973 I immediately picked up a .300 Win. and lung shot a nice bull caribou with one of the 220 grain Silvertips at about 400 yards. The bullet passed through and the caribou piled up after about a 20 yard sprint. To this day that is the longest shot at a caribou I have taken. Next was a 200 grain Speer Hot Cor in a cow moose's forehead at about 20 yards. No exit and a thumb size entrance hole.

A year later I kept thinking about Elmer's words and got a .338 Win. and some of the new 250 grain Grand Slams. I shot a young bull moose in the forehead at about 20 yards and the entrance hole was about the size of a orange and no exit hole. The rest of the Grand Slams went into paper targets and I wised up and started loading the Nosler Partition and stayed with it for the 30-06 and .338 until the late 80's when I switched to Barnes X bullets.

I am still using the Barnes X bullets, but now they are the TTSX version, 168 grain in the 30-06 and 225 grains in the .338. They penetrate as good or better on moose as the 200 grain Partition from the 30-06 and 250 grain from the .338, but recoil is not as bad. I doubt I will ever use any thing else in Alaska for what I do. Also, I have never shot a critter past 450 yards and that was one moose.

If I hunted state side I would use the Nosler Partition again, it might be the best all around bullet for most big game that we eat. I would trust the Partition to open up on deer sized game past 200 yards and I could always try the Accubond that is so popular in Alaska, along with the Barnes TTSX and Partition.

Man, I’d love to have a few hundred of them. Bet they worked excellent. The 225 AB is great as well, but I bet the 225 BT was a good one.

Similar statements is exactly what has me thinking about the difference in my loading for Elk sized game vs deer and antelope. Why pay premium bullet prices when a good cup and core bullet is likely more effective and half the price. Keeping the lead out of my food is a big benefit, especially when feeding grandkids on Sunday nights. It doesnt make sense to me to spend more, to shoot premiu bullets that may not be as effective as something cheaper on light skinned game. We all know, if you put the bullet where it is supposed to go, they will all work.

Well, it's been a while since we rolled out the South Carolina study. This is an account of well over 400 WT kills observed over a number of years, data accumulated.

Result: WT's shot with C&C bullets ran about half the distance compared to those shot with premium bullets.

Southern WT's aren't that big or hard to kill, Seems the softer C&C bullets put them down them faster than harder, premium bullets.

And I'm sure this was just a fluke, but WT's shot with .25 cal. rifles ran the fewest yards, edging out all others.. Although the numbers were too low for statistical confidence, it makes a great arguing point for quarter bore shooters.

https://www.dnr.sc.gov/wildlife/deer/articlegad.html

DF

Mule Deer.

Thanks for the information, very Interesting

I have never been a big Sierra or Speer bullet user.

I did use the 140gr Hornady BTSP out of my 270 for a few seasons in the 90's, and they worked but went back to flat base. My impression was the BT's were softer.

My nephews shot three deer with reduced loads and the 140 BTSP. Running about 2300fps. Recovered two of them. Perfect expansion, and both shots were less than a 100 yards.
The 3rd deer was a pass through the ribs.

I didn't read all this thread but read enough to think we're not talking about shooting past 600 yards. Therefore I suggest there is an all around bullet.

Hammer bullets. I've been using them in different calibers for years.

www.hammerbullers.com

If you’re like me, of course you are.

When I started elk hunting I was certain I needed “premium” bullets pushed from big cases. Then, the more elk I shot, and the more I saw shot by others, my thinking began to change. I eventually came back to .473” case heads powered with sub 60 gr. powder charges. The next evolution was I started going back to the cup and core bullets I’d never had a problem with on deer sized game - bullets like the Nosler Ballistic Tip, Hornady Interlock, Speer Hotcore, and Sierra Gameking.

Sure, the Partition or Accubond are usually my first stop with a new rifle, but I know enough to know they’re really not needed with 308/30-06 sized cases.

Wow, 5 pages of replies and I never heard the correct response for bullet selection. I thought everyone knew the bullet construction that produced the highest BC was the best.

Brad,

I have a .30-caliber 165-grain Speer Hot-Cor in my collection of recovered bullets that's perfectly expanded, and retained 85% of its original weight.

It killed an average mature whitetail buck in 1977, in the hilly country of northeastern Montana. One my rifles back then was a Remington 760 .30-06 with a barrel that had been shortened to 20", and my handload got around 2800 fps. Jumped him in a brushy draw and missed with a first shot, because he jumped over a low bush and the bullet went under him. Pumped another round in the chamber and managed to put the bullet in the left rear of the ribcage as he neared the top of the draw. He started stumbling a little as he went over the top, and found him about 30 feet beyond. Found the Hot-Cor in his right shoulder during butchering.

Eventually came to prefer Hornady Spire Points (especially after the Interlock ring appeared), and Nosler Ballistic Tips, but killed a bunch of big game with Hot-Cors during those years, especially the 105 6mm from a .243 Winchester.

John

Should add that the last time I used Hot-Cors on game was about 20 years ago, while culling some doe deer on a ranch in eastern Montana, using a pre-'64 Winchester Model 70 "Westerner" with 140 Hor-Cors at around 3200 fps. Didn't shoot anything closer than 150 yards, or farther than 250, and all of the bullets exited, while killing quickly and ruining very little meat.

John, your experience mirrors mine. I took my biggest whitetail (4pt, 200 lbs dressed weight) with a 150 gr. Hotcore from an 18.5” 308 carbine, and my biggest bull elk (mature 7x7) with the 165 Hotcore from a 22” bbl’d 308. Both bullets on each animal exited. When I used to shoot bullets into test media, I was always impressed at how well the 30 cal Hotcore’s performed, and came to think of them as “the poor man’s Partition!”

I believe it was in the 80's when I saw a Speer ad about the 165 grain .308" Hot Cor where they mentioned how they had beefed up the jacket walls in the shank of that particular bullet. I believe JB remembers that ad as well.

Yep!

I tried to switch my father to that one for his 300 Win mag loads but he told me to keep loading the 165 Sierra for deer. Then he went another direction and started popping them with a 308 Win in a Steyr carbine and a 30 Herrett Contender.

Probably my favorite bullet is the Speer 7mm 145 gr btsp.

What do you use to launch them?

They were recommended here for my Savage 99 .284 due to their dimensions. They've proven to be extremely good bullets. I may try them in the 7mm Rem Mag since I have so many of them.

They may be a little soft for the 7 mag. Speer deliberately makes the BTSP an easy expander. That said, I have not worked with that particular one.

A 7 Mag is just a .284 a little further out.

Hint.

Yeah, but what if the deer aint?

Well there is that. Best you can do is plan where you can and wing it from there. The terrain I hunt is usually long but you never know, it could end up a shot at 40 yards. That's hunting.

Don't get me wrong, I'm certainly not one of the Barnes or bust crew. Last year I did all my hog killing with 85 grain Speer boat tails out of a 243 and 100 grain Sierra boat tails out of a 250 Savage.

In the early 80’s and into the 90’s all we used for the CA black tails & hogs were 130gr/270 and 150gr/30 Speer Hot Cor bullets. We (myself, family & surrounding neighbors) all had cattle ranches and had great luck - can’t remember any failures. I seem to remember that was before the Horn Innerlock appeared because we made a gradual (and unnecessary) switch to them because we had to have the ‘better’ bullets. Lol. Results were exactly the same though.

Now I shoot lots of Nosler stuff mostly blamed on SPS and their pricing. Lots of Red & yellow boxes on the shelves to this day.

Not equal in RPMs.

Hint.

Yeah, I think I started on SPS in 2004 or so. It pretty much converted me to Nosler. I'll admit I have bullets into the 1000's from SPS

Guy walks up to deer, "How do you like those rpm's m'r f'r? Ha!!!!"

+1

But what's a Loony gonna do, gotta be ruminating on something....?

DF

---

With apologies to Henny Youngman.

A fellow was going to Canada to hunt. He told the ticket lady, "Send one of my rifles to New York, send another to LA, and one to Miami." She said, "We can't do that!" He replied, "You did it last year!"

When I read about the evils of hunting, I gave up reading.

Why does the new Italian navy have glass bottom boats? To see the old Italian navy!

My hunting partner is over eighty and still doesn't need glasses. He drinks right out of the bottle.

I have the Midas touch. Everything I touch turns into a muffler.

A noticed this guy at the hunting lodge bar, drunk. I picked him off the floor and offered to take him to his room. On the way, he falls down three more times. When I got him to his room, he fell down again. I knocked on the door and said, "Here's your husband!" The guy's wife says, "Where's his wheelchair?"

You were implying that bullet performance would be the same between the two but RPM will take a bullet apart faster as they increase.

Yep! My wife would see the CC bill and, after years going by, asked what is ‘Shooters P’and who is buying what from them? (I guess the CC slip only included those letters) I said they were hunting bullets. She wondered why the bills kept coming, coming & coming - I assured her that they were bought at quite a ‘discount’. She shrugged and luckily we’ve never spoken if it again.

Hello Mr. Barsness:

Since there are sooooo many threads about which BT's (Ballistic Tips) are considered "heavy jacket" I would like to compile a secret decoder ring of the jacket thickness of common BT's. I am selfish by nature so please respond with a simple yes/no of my commonly used BT's diameters:

The question is: "Are the following BT's considered heavy jacket"?

Is the .264 diameter 120gr Ballistic Tip considered heavy jacket? yes/no
Is the .264 diameter 140gr Ballistic Tip considered heavy jacket? Yes/no

Is the .277 diameter 130gr Ballistic Tip considered heavy jacket? yes/no
Is the .277 diameter 140gr Ballistic Tip considered heavy jacket? yes/no
Is the .277 diameter 150gr Ballistic Tip considered heavy jacket? yes/no

Is the .308 diameter 150gr Ballistic Tip considered heavy jacket? yes/no
Is the .308 diameter 165gr Ballistic Tip considered heavy jacket? yes/no
Is the .308 diameter 168gr Ballistic Tip considered heavy jacket? yes/no
Is the .308 diameter 180gr Ballistic Tip considered heavy jacket? yes/no

I would really like to compile this for my use. Thanks in advance.

Merry Christmas!

If you're not overthinking bullets, you have no business on this forum.

OK, since we're not having fun anymore, let's go to work. Say the 284 has a 8 twist and the 7mag has a 10 twist.

Go

The 35 caliber 225 grain nbt's I have are white tipped not buckskin they gave me good groups but for some reason I still used the 225 npt on game....mb

Old School,

I would hate to list which on your list are heavy-jackets BTs right NOW, partly because Nosler (and a lot of other bullet manufacturers) continue to tweak specific bullets without making press announcements. (I know this because I've talked to many bullet-company guys, sometimes across campfires. From test-media and field results, have yet to be misled.)

There are apparently two major ways "Hunting" (big game) Ballistic Tips have been tweaked since they appeared around 1985: Heavier jackets, and harder lead alloys in the cores. (These are also the major ways manufacturers of other cup-and-cores tweak terminal performance.)

SomeBT's have also not been tweaked, at least very much. As an example, I always got great results from the 140 7mm, right from the get-go in the late 80s. Years later the late Chub Eastman, the Nosler writer contact for many years, told me that was one they never felt they had to tweak.

But can state with confidence that the 165, 168 and 180 .30s have the heavy jackets. Have also witnessed many excellent field results with the 6.5mm 120s shot from cartridges ranging from the 6.5 Creedmoor to 6.5-.280 AI.

Thanks Mule Deer for the reply.

Gonna do some load development with the 140gr BT's in my .270 WIN this winter yet. The 130gr BT's in my .270 end up with a little too much meat damage on deer and antelope.

Also got a few boxes of the 140gr BT's waiting to be tinkered with in my 6.5x55. I've got some RL-23, RL-26, IMR4955, and Norma URP that is begging to be tried in my Hawkeye African 6.5x55.

I gave up trying to figure out bullets a while back and just go with what I like ! LOL
This came from shooting a whole pile of different cartridges to basically just one, the .303 British.
I know this may be hard to believe, ( I am not a gun writer don'tchaknow) but I have found that when II put the bullet where I want it to go, the deer or moose dies! Go figure!
The cartridge that I have pretty much used virtually since 2009 is the .303British in a Ruger single shot built by Greydog, but I have also used it for about 30 years before that , just not exclusively.
I have made one shot kills DRT ( or just a few yards) with bullets from 150 to 220 grains , and everything from old 215 grain C.I.L. KKSP's and Sabre Tips to modern 150 grain TSX and 220 grain Woodleighs. Barnes.

Ranges have been from 20 yards to over 360 yards ( 372lasered). Both the shortest and longest kills were with Barnes BTW.
Like I stated, every bullet killed well, went where I wanted it to- which is important, and meat loss was not overly huge.
critters were shot with lung shots and shoulder shots.

The end result of all this wondering , discussing and thinking has been that if I put the bullet where I want it to go in a certain situation ( high shoulder or lungs) , the animal will die quickly and I will have no problem finding it.
So yeah, I quit overthinking bullets a while back, come to think of it my old man told me to not worry about it about 60 years ago! LOL

Thanks for trying the pic for me on the thread.

That said I've shot enough to where I've seen failures. One did not kill. Other failures did but leave you wondering if on a given different shot you may not kill. Almost all the bad incidences if not all of them, have been Sierra game king bullets. Which have done everything but the actual pencil through that llama dreams of, to blowing shortly after impact. In fact a pistol bullet of Sierra game king in 30-30 penciled through a bucks heart for my wife. I'm thinking had it not hit the heart the hole in the lungs would have been small enough to heal.

I"ve ZERO bad issues with barnes FWIW.

I've also had no issues with berger target bullets knowing what I'm dealing with and staying off bones.

Those two have been most consistent results by far.

Sierra Match Kings have been super consistent for us. but we have not used them that often. And know others that have had issues now and then.

Partitions have always killed. But have had less than stellar penetration.

Of course you can have the best bullet in the wrong place and nothing can make up for that.

Well , like you said in the Creedmoor thread, many would call this unexpanded, but that is a pretty good sized hole compared to an unfired 6.5
How far did it go?
Cat

Regarding Bergers, I have seen a few very dramatic kills on deer from friends using them, the last one was at 409 yards this fall.
The danged deer simply folded its legs and went straight down without a twitch, dead before it hit the ground, didn't even roll over!

Rifle was a 7Mag, bullet was a 168 I think?
Now, the exit was softball sized, but it was a lung shot.
My friend has used the same rig on 4 moose so far, but he explained that he takes lung shots only, NO shoulders with that bullet! LOL.
because I shoot a .303 as my main cartridge, I am a bit limited in bullet brands and selection, but am planning on trying some of the new Hammer bullets next when they come out in .311 .
No idea why, except the curiosity thing !LOL
Cat

A profound truth.

I was just holding two bullets in my hand yesterday, looking for the "best" route in another 7mm-08. I've got a couple boxes of 145 Speer BTSP that I know are soft and work great at 2,700fps or so. I've also got a couple of boxes of 120TTSX, which I also know work great at 250fps faster. The Speer knocks very nice holes in ribcages and often leaves big blood trails, but it sometimes doesn't exit when you aim for the offside shoulder (stuff generally drops with that combo though). The TTSX acts like a "smaller" bullet, but it pretty much always exits, and is pretty reliable on bad angles. Still not sure which way I am going to roll with that one, but I like trying a lot of rifles and bullets each year. If everything falls to one load from one gun, that sure seems boring in my book.

To get wrapped around the axle about bullet construction I'd have to be pretty unhappy about a bullets performance. I use a fair share of different component bullets to take deer and have had so few bad experiences that they are not generally worth remarking on

I did experience a bit of a goat rope twice with the Remington .243 80 PLHP factory load. Once on a deer and once on a hog. These bullets were never meant for anything but varmints and I knew it going in

But I know a couple of guys using the Nosler .243 70 Ballistic tip, or the Hornady 75 gr .257 Vmax very successfully on deer over a number of years

So hard to go wrong with bullet choice for deer...

140BT's aren't likely to solve what you dislike about 130's. I shot them from '89 through '03 @ 2850ish. I didn't ever have one fail to reach the vitals when I hit a rib or scapula, so in that respect, they held together well enough. I shot roughly 40 white-tailed deer with them over that timeframe. I lost lots of off-side shoulders due to bloodshot/exit-wounds.

True, IF.....you know what you are working with and how it is designed to perform. I hunted with a guy once that bough several boxes of 270wby ammo on his way to the hunt. I was helping him unload his gear and asked if he knew he bough varmint loads (they were 100 or 110gr factory loads). He was pissed, but we checked his zero and told him to only shoot lungs. It worked like a charm, but he knew it was a bomb and where to stick it. It might not have been good on some shot angles if he was thinking he'd bought his usual 150gr loads.

The ONLY bullet failure I have ever really witnessed personally that I can attribute to the bullet itself, was with a 145 Speer BTSP.
This was three years ago, using my dearly departed father's P14 Enfield with a Douglas barrel in 280 Remington.
Big fan of that bullet and still am ,regardless.
We were in a ground blind and the buck was walking straight to us.

When I whispered said "now!", Portsider284 hit the grunt tube and the buck stopped dead at 134 yards.
I had a solid rest, and the buck was just slightly quartering to us.
The buck went straight down at the shot like it was hit in the spine.
While we were trying to get out of the blind, the danged thing up and ran away into the deep swamp ( of course!)!!
I didn't sleep that night that all and the next morning , left the Enfield at home, grabbed my trusty Ruger single shot, and took the scope off and put it inn my pack. Using the express sights on it, I tracked that buck for 3 1/2 hours, until I caught up to it and managed killed it.

On inspection when we had it hanging, the bullet hit the chest and actually broke in two, the bigger piece skidddiing aliing between the hide and plate eat, exiting out the back and breaking the hock on the right rear leg.
I have never seen anything like that before , and both Portsider and I agree that we likely will never again.
Strange, for sure.......
Cat

One of my friend's rifles is a Remington Model 7 in 7mm08 and he has used several different handloads of mine on deer and hogs. One with the 139 grain Interlock and another with the 120 grain Sierra flat base. I didn't call those Sierras Pro Hunters because they were made long before Sierra used that name. They were made when Sierra was in Whittier, California.

This year he used a load with the 162 grain boat tail Interlock. Those bullets were 80's leftovers from my 7mm Wby days. I had loaded them in necked down Hornady 308 Win match cases two or three years ago using Lyman's suggested potential accuracy load with IMR4895. When I asked him why he switched to them he said he liked the way the recoil felt when he shot them. Pretty scientific.

The 162 Interlock worked great for him the morning of 12/12 when he shot a 148 pound doe through the shoulders. Her front end dropped and she plowed a bit and it was over.

Really good information here. Thank you for all posters!

I am impressed with Hammer bullets, both at the range and on deer. They're not cheap, but they do perform as advertised.

DF

I think nosler coulda come up with different names for their varmint BTs, and their Hunting BTs. Saved a lot of confusion, for some.
I'd lay good money on the bet that there are guys who don't know the difference.

Sierra pro hunter, GameKing, Hornady interlock, Speer Hot-cor are all good to go, for me.

But I have truly come to enjoy and appreciate the hunting ballistic tips
.243/95
.257/100
.264/120
.284/150
&
.308/180

Can't say, for me that the winter will be harder If I bloodshot a little meat. Which, admittedly, can happen.

For a particular hunt, 25 year or so ago, I loaded up some 30-06 200 partitions. The one I used on that hunt did very well. I selected the bullet based on the fact that there were grizzlies in the area.
But we met some of the guides friends. I think that every one of them had a box of Remington cor-lokts in his truck

I can recall days, back when, when I mulled over the load I carried, even as I hunted.
Nowadays I have better things to not think about...

Good to know about the 140 grainers. I can't say the 130gr BT's ever "failed" as everything was DRT. Maybe I'll use the cheaper 140 BT's as a proxy for 140gr AB (Accubond) development in .270...... this has worked in 30-06 where the .308 caliber ballistic coefficients (BC's) are the same between BT's and AB's ....but the BC's aren't identical between the .277 BT's and AB's so who knows.

Funny thing is .... for decades the Interlocks, Hot Cores, and Grand Slams worked fine ..... but after I retired I discovered the interwebs were sayin' there's a better mousetrap out there. LOL

My dad and I talk about deer rifles and loads all the time, and we've both seen a lot of things used over the years. We have about 80 deer seasons between the two of us. Neither of us has ever seen a problem with a typical cup/core .308win 150-168gr on a deer or a pig, even though .308 kills are better represented in our experiences than any other chambering. They just work, without beating up the shoulder too badly. Can't see a 7mm/162 being too much different.


And a 148lb doe is a whopper around here. I do love shooting and eating those long-headed watchdogs.....

It was a really big doe for our area too. My buddy has a rep for getting large does but this was his largest if I remember right. He has bagged a number of them in the upper 130's.

Eating wise it was the following Thursday I dined at his house where we enjoyed a sauce piquante made with big doe and pork sausage.

For myself I see fragmentation as an asset for some types of shooting and as a detriment for others. I want a bullet to break up if I shoot it into a varmint, or God forbid, if I have to defend my home from within it's walls. My AR and my AK are loaded with hollow point ammo except for my AR10, which is loaded with the same ammo I kill elk with. (But I live out in the country and I can shoot a 375H&H and not worry about hitting someone next door. The "next door" is 1.25 miles from me. ) But for varmint shooting I want bullets to break into course metal sand.

All my big-game rifles are loaded with ammo that gives me good expansion and full pentation. Bullet construction that gives me excellent performance from a 303 brit or 300 Savage will not do so well fired from my 300 magnum. Add to that the problem with different size game and radically different ranges and angles of impact.

So bullet construction can be over-thought, but in most cases it's not waist of time to think it over. The bullet is going to work well, or fail, depending on many factors, but the 3 that are most important are A, what speed is the bullet going at impact. B. What size is the target and C. what angles will you shoot that game from?

Some bullet like the Barnes TSX are simply great, unless the impact velocity is under 2000 FPS They are so-so from 2000 to about 1800 and much below 1800 they are basically a solid that won't pernitrate very straight. So fired from rifles that have high velocities they are one of the best all-around bullets you can get, but if I load them in my 300 Savage with a MV or about 2400- 2500 FPS the same bullet that's so good in my 300 mag now is only good to about 100-150 yards.

In my tight bored 303 Brit (.310" groove to groove) and both my 300 Savage rifles I actually prefer some cup and core bullets to Barnes. Because my 2400 to 2500 FPS rifles still give expansion to the ranges I can use those rifles with their iron sights. And let no one tell you different, a 303 or 300 Savage with a 180 grain bullet kills elk just fine out past 200 yards. They kill deer and antelope fine out to about 300. Maybe farther, but the longest kills I have made with mine were just a bit over 300 and the bullets exited and left big holes.

So the issue can become complex.

Matching the bullet to the conditions and the rifle is well worth the time you'd take to research it, but simply going to a tougher bullet is not always an answer to the correct question.

My current cartridges are:
222 Remington, loaded with 50 grain Hornady SX bullets
223s Loaded with 55 and 65 grain thin jacketed varmint bullets. (I do have some 60 grain Nosler Partitions loaded for deer and antelope, but so far I have not used many)
25-06 loaded with 120 grain Remington Core-Lokts made in the 1970s and some ammo loaded with 120 grain Nosler Partitions.
6.5X54M/S Loaded with 156 grain PPU round nose cup and core bullets. VERY good luck on deer and antelope with that bullet and perfect performance
6.8SPC Loaded with Remington 100 grain Soft Points
270 Winchesters Loaded with 130, 150 and 160 grain Partitions and also some with 150 grain Remington Round Nose Core-Lokts also made in the early 70s
30-30 Loaded with cup-and core 170 grain flat points, Remington, Speer and Sierra. All work just fine.
303 Brit. (I shoot .308 diameter bullet in this rifle and it's very accurate) 180 grain Remington Core-Lokts.
300 Savages M99 loaded with 150 grain Core-Lokts and I do have some 150 grain Partition for elk, but I reserve them for elk only) In my M81 Remington Auto I use 180 grain bullets, also cup and core.
308 Winchester. 150 grain Winchester Power Points (almost all gone now) and 165 grain Nosler Partitions for elk. For deer and antelope I have found the 150 grain Rem Core-Lokt perfectly OK.
30-06s 165 grain Nosler BT for deer and antelope and 165 grain Partitions for elk. In my Lever action M95 Browning I use 220 grain round nose for elk.
300 H&H 200 grain Nosler partition.
8X57 170 grain Hornady SST for deer and antelope. 200 grain Nosler Partitions for elk
35 Remington. 200 grain Remington Core-Lokts (will go to Sierras when the Core-Lokts are all gone)
358 Winchester 220 grain Speer FP and 225 Grian Nosler Partitions.
9.3X57s 250 grain Nosler Accubonds and 285 Grain PPU for elk, and for carrying with we have a lot of grizzlies, and 270 grain Speer Hot Core for deer and antelope.
9.3X62 286 Grain Hornady, 285 Gr PPU and 286 Grain Partitions.
9.3X74R 286 grain Nosler Partitions.
375H&H 270 grain Winchester Power Points and 300 grain Nosler Partitions.
404 Jeffery. 400 grain Norma soft points. Would be happy with Hornadys too, but have not found any.

Heavy for caliber cup and core. Expand well but hold together for thru shots. Edk

From 1954 though almost the mid 70's I used the Sierra Pro-hunter 150 gr. bullet in my 30-06 and during the latter portion the .308 Win. Guess I read too much Jack O'Connor and the bullets always worked just fine on deer. A few years into the 80's I bought a Ruger m77 RSI and the only bullet it wold shoot with at least hunting accuracy was the 165 gr. Speer Hot Core. The load has proven accurate in every .308 I've used.

I've come to the conclusion that although I really like the 7x57, the cartridge is a jinx, at least for me. I'll pass on the details other than two lost deer and a car wreck that damn near killed me, and yes the 7x57 was involved.

When I finally was able to afford a guided elk hunt I went with the .35 Whelen. Bullets tried were the 225 gr. Nosler Ballistic tip (I still have a partial box and the tips are light tan) the 225 gr. Accubond, the 225 gr. Partition and the 225 gr. TSX. The TSX won out and so far I've taken six elk with that bullet and one with the 165 gr. Accubond that was my back up rifle. The scope on my Whelen had turned toes up. Nice one shot kill. Bullets on elk not recovered.
Paul B.

In my Long Branch and my father's only #4Mk1 I run heavier ( 180,215) cup and core bullets at "regular " 303 velocities, but in my Ruger single shot I can run the Barnes 150 TSX's at 308 type speeds, and get really super accuracy and expansion/pass through's at well over 300 yards on deer.
The longest one was a hair over 370 yards with a heart shot, deer didn't go 20 with soup for lungs!
Cat

That is the advantage to Ruger's stronger action.

No promises, but when I was working up loads for the 30-303, I was pleasantly surprised with 180s and Re 17. If you have some, give it a whirl. It wouldn't usually have been my first powder choice, but that's what the range is for. I had some and tried it. There's no reason why it shouldn't work for the 303 British as well. As well, it produced a little over 2500 fps from a 25 inch barrel. The bullet, by the way, is a 180 grain Remington Core Lokt PSP. This combination works well on deer and probably moose.

This particular 5 shot group measured. 0.800 of an inch, but the average for the first 15 shots was .9 or .95. Under an inch at any rate.

I use mostly Varget or H4895 Steve, simply because both work great in all my. 303's.
The Ruger however really shines with 150 TSX's and H4895
When I was shooting a lot of C.I.L. 215's I was using Varget mostly.
Cat

No worries. They work too!

I've had only one bullet/cartridge/game combination that caused me to say, "no more." I used the 350 Rem Mag with the 200 gr. Hornady SP at 2650 fps to shoot three black bears, but no more. The first one I shot at 30 yards in and out ribs, and found it 20 yards away. There was a small blood trail leading to it. The second one I shot quartering away at 60 yards, and found no blood and no bear. It got into some head high grass in a swamp, and I figured I must have made a bad shot. The third I shot the same as the second. It went about 40 yards, but didn't go into the grass. The only blood I found was a small amount from it's nose. Again, no penetration. Maybe I was pushing that bullet too fast.

I haven't yet tried a bullet/cartridge combo that didn't work on a deer, but maybe I've just been lucky.

One of the biggest reasons I have used the IMR and Hodgdon powders almost exclusively for so many years , is they were the most readily available powders to me.
That is a very big consideration at times! LOL
I have acquired a bunch of RL 26 however, and am using that in my 244AI steel match rifle.
Cat

I know what you mean. We have always been the poor cousins to our friends down south. We have to go with what's available, that's for sure.

Canada isn't a big enough market to get some of the products available in the US. We lost a lot here in the late 1970s, when the FAC era arrived. Then Imperial closed its doors. Add the mounting shipping restrictions, federal laws in the States tightening since 9/11, and gun store closures up here, it can be a challenge to find some things. That's why I make my own bullets. It was need. I also order from the US through importers like Prophet River, or IRG.

Never seen a 1-10 twist on a 7mm Rem Mag. Usually 9.25 at the slowest.

I feel like a Big Stick quote would be applicable to your pointy head. Congratulations?

Try to keep up.

Remember this?


https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/7219652/1




P

I bet you sucked at dodgeball.

Hard to say with the two you didn't recover, who knows. I've shot only deer with that bullet in a 358 Win about 100 fps slower and worked well. I have a bunch of the 200 Core Lokts (SP and RN) and though generally not as accurate, I think they're a little tougher, at least they act like it.

The third one was an easy recovery making two of the three.

I would put the Nosler Partition up against any other bullet on the planet as far as the effectiveness of killing any animal. Caliber, weight, doesn't matter. Show me a better performer and I'll buy it.

Velocities?

http://findnchoose.net/bullet_rpm_calculator.html