You lucky readers! After years and years of infield research I now know the ultimate cartridge for deer/sheep/pronghorn size critters! Additionally I have carefully assembled from my field notes all the facts you need know about ballistic coefficients, bullet weight, velocity required at sensible hunting ranges (let’s put max at about 400 yds.). So here you have the ultimate numbers: B.C. .390-.453 Bullet weight 115-120 grain Velocity 3000 FPS What those numbers make you yawn? They don’t approach many of today’s modern cartridges. Well record book Pronghorn and Rocky Mountain Sheep and several Mule and Whitetail Deer, Javelina and a Black bear wish I had never discovered the 257 Roberts!
Cartridges that are nearly 100 years old don't work anymore. All that history doesn't mean a thing. If it wasn't designed in the 21st century it doesn't count.
The .257 is a good one. These days, it is seldom seen or heard about and It meets all the requirements of a deer/ sheep rifle. Just my style, which means, it is not short and fat, keeps a gentle shoulder angle and a longer neck. A 1/4 bore these days doesn't capture the attention of the " IN" crowd . It is a hunter's round.
Cartridges that are nearly 100 years old don't work anymore. All that history doesn't mean a thing. If it wasn't designed in the 21st century it doesn't count.
Cartridges that are nearly 100 years old don't work anymore. All that history doesn't mean a thing. If it wasn't designed in the 21st century it doesn't count.
You lucky readers! After years and years of infield research I now know the ultimate cartridge for deer/sheep/pronghorn size critters! Additionally I have carefully assembled from my field notes all the facts you need know about ballistic coefficients, bullet weight, velocity required at sensible hunting ranges (let’s put max at about 400 yds.). So here you have the ultimate numbers: B.C. .390-.453 Bullet weight 115-120 grain Velocity 3000 FPS What those numbers make you yawn? They don’t approach many of today’s modern cartridges. Well record book Pronghorn and Rocky Mountain Sheep and several Mule and Whitetail Deer, Javelina and a Black bear wish I had never discovered the 257 Roberts!
That's a sweet spot, for sure. (PS: Don't tell Stick!)
As you know, I have some acquaintance with that cartridge, and so does Eileen. Below are some of the western big game animals we're taken with it over the decades. The first is a pronghorn buck I got in 1988, taken at around 450 yards with a 100-grain Nosler Partition. Back then we didn't know that you had to use high-BC bullets in 6mm or 6.5mm to shoot antelope at over 250 yards, so I loaded the Partition pretty warmly and used my scope's plex reticle to estimate the range. The bullet landed right where intended, and by some miracle the buck fell over.
I got this mule deer about a month later, using the same rifle with a 120-grain Nosler Solid Base, range about 100 yards--a far more suitable distance for such an antique cartridge.
Eileen got this cow elk a few years ago with a more modern .257, using a more modern bullet, a 100-grain TTSX. It stood quartering away at 123 yards (we had a laser rangefinder), and at the shot dropped, flopped its head a couple times and lay still. It wasn't the biggest elk in that country, but wasn't a calf either/
We've taken a few other animals with the cartridge, some from other rifles, I would guess at least 50.
I’m learning I don’t need a cannon to kill deer size game after watching grandkids kill deer and pigs dead with a 243. I’ve never owned a 257 Roberts, but I like a 25-06.
Cartridges that are nearly 100 years old don't work anymore. All that history doesn't mean a thing. If it wasn't designed in the 21st century it doesn't count.
I respectfully disagree.
M. Quigley
Originally Posted by colorado bob
Originally Posted by Blacktailer
Cartridges that are nearly 100 years old don't work anymore. All that history doesn't mean a thing. If it wasn't designed in the 21st century it doesn't count.
I'll stick with my 30/06.
Tongue thoroughly in cheek. I commented on another thread that I don't have a single firearm that is chambered for a cartridge that is less than 50 years old and most are 100 years old. Bob, 270, 30-06, 30-30, 375H&H. You get the idea.
You lucky readers! After years and years of infield research I now know the ultimate cartridge for deer/sheep/pronghorn size critters! Additionally I have carefully assembled from my field notes all the facts you need know about ballistic coefficients, bullet weight, velocity required at sensible hunting ranges (let’s put max at about 400 yds.). So here you have the ultimate numbers: B.C. .390-.453 Bullet weight 115-120 grain Velocity 3000 FPS What those numbers make you yawn? They don’t approach many of today’s modern cartridges. Well record book Pronghorn and Rocky Mountain Sheep and several Mule and Whitetail Deer, Javelina and a Black bear wish I had never discovered the 257 Roberts!
I would like to see some of those record book critters.
Hunting small animals at medium distances with a centerfire rifle is not a constrained problem. Lots of things work. The .257 Roberts doesn't seem like a particularly good option, but it does work and isn't horrible in a single shot. In a bolt action it requires a long action to achieve short action performance and is under-twisted and in a bad caliber. A great example of getting less for more.
For short actions, the 6mm and 6.5mm Creedmoor work better. So does the 7mm08 if sufficiently fast twisted.
For single shots, the 6mm Rem or 6mmAI has a lot to recommend it.
For a true long action, 26 Nosler is hard to beat.
Hunting small animals at medium distances with a centerfire rifle is not a constrained problem. Lots of things work. The .257 Roberts doesn't seem like a particularly good option, but it does work and isn't horrible in a single shot. In a bolt action it requires a long action to achieve short action performance and is under-twisted and in a bad caliber. A great example of getting less for more.
For short actions, the 6mm and 6.5mm Creedmoor work better. So does the 7mm08 if sufficiently fast twisted.
For single shots, the 6mm Rem or 6mmAI has a lot to recommend it.
For a true long action, 26 Nosler is hard to beat.
I've never had the privilege of hunting the 257 Rob. It's plumb amazing I ever killed anything!
Jerry
I actually owned one for a short time. In the late 70s post 1976 I had a 200th year M 77 in 257 Rob. 1. I didn't know anything about the cartridge and let it get away. 2. YES, the 200 th year of American Liberty
I guess the "ultimate ctg." would have to be one loaded in the rifle you're holding when that big buck steps out....
Speaking of the Roberts, this combo works. LA 700, Brux barrel, so COAL is a bit much for a SA. Have posted this before and it's whacked hogs and WT's with authority. Velocity with H-100V is pushing 25-06 territory. Generally speaking, a big block will out run a small block... But, never say never and don't count out a high stepping small block...
I've never had the privilege of hunting the 257 Rob. It's plumb amazing I ever killed anything!
Jerry
I actually owned one for a short time. In the late 70s post 1976 I had a 200th year M 77 in 257 Rob. 1. I didn't know anything about the cartridge and let it get away. 2. YES, the 200 th year of American Liberty
I’ve got one of those 1976 M77’s in 250 Savage. Sweet little rifle.
I’m learning I don’t need a cannon to kill deer size game after watching grandkids kill deer and pigs dead with a 243. I’ve never owned a 257 Roberts, but I like a 25-06.
Never have either, myself. But I I think i agree in that I’d buy or reach for a 25/06 first. Same way I’d take .308 over .300 sav. But my thinking could be flawed. Not a hand loader so that’s definitely part of the equation.
I've never had the privilege of hunting the 257 Rob. It's plumb amazing I ever killed anything!
Jerry
I actually owned one for a short time. In the late 70s post 1976 I had a 200th year M 77 in 257 Rob. 1. I didn't know anything about the cartridge and let it get away. 2. YES, the 200 th year of American Liberty
I’ve got one of those 1976 M77’s in 250 Savage. Sweet little rifle. ————————-
Yes they are. Congrats. I sure wish I’d known about the 257 R at the time. Oh Well !!!
Hunting small animals at medium distances with a centerfire rifle is not a constrained problem. Lots of things work. The .257 Roberts doesn't seem like a particularly good option, but it does work and isn't horrible in a single shot. In a bolt action it requires a long action to achieve short action performance and is under-twisted and in a bad caliber. A great example of getting less for more.
For short actions, the 6mm and 6.5mm Creedmoor work better. So does the 7mm08 if sufficiently fast twisted.
For single shots, the 6mm Rem or 6mmAI has a lot to recommend it.
For a true long action, 26 Nosler is hard to beat.
I bet you're fun at parties
Sorry I didn't join the circle jerk. Looks like y'all got it well in hand without me though.
I specifically got rid of 243 and 257 caliber rifles I owned to aquire a 270win. Why?
First the little stuff is handled by 5.56 or 22-250. If I need 80gr or heavier the 270 can deliver. In pre covid times 270 ammo is cheap and everywhere. The only real competitor that is small in bore size and popular is the newer 6.5 creedmoore.
I'll be using .257 110 grain Sierra TGKs at around 3100 fps in a short action, 23" barrel in a round that duplicates the Roberts. Can't think of anything that crosses small game up to deer size game better, that would be as pleasant to shoot, especially in a walk around rifle. You don't need a long action to get the best out of a Roberts...you need an intermediate length action e.g a Model 70 short action, Mauser 98 action or even a Remington short action with Wyatts magazine to get close to 3" length. If you want a high bc 110 grain bullet , that Badlands Bulldozer looks good in the pictures with a bc of .570 needing a 7 twist barrel.
The Roberts is the only cartridge that I own multiple rifles for. I tend to have a rule of only one rifle in each cartridge, but I break it if another nice .257 Roberts pops up.
The 100gr NPs don't shoot well in my rifle, so with a bit of scrounging, I finally found some 100gr NBTs to replace the 100gr Hornady SPs that are no longer offered.
All I could find was 7 boxes. I'll be glad when bullets start coming north again.
I like most moderate-capacity cartridges from .257 to .308. They’re effective, yet enjoyable to use and the Roberts fits in there just fine. Make mine a 115/120 Partition.
It is useful but it doesn't ensure survival. A little, compact 12 ga doesn't either but can be more useful. Birdshot, buckshot and slugs make it flexible. I would like to see a resurgence of the .25's and old time 6.5's . Have you ever done a piece on these, John? What is your opinion of the .25's?
It's the best post because the rest all involve the typical minutiae-obsessing over big game rounds. I have taken and seen taken a LOT of big game over the decades, with a lot of different cartridges, and the longer that goes on the less difference I see in how various big game cartridges kill game. As long as the bullet expands and penetrates sufficiently in the vital organs, they basically all work far more similarly than not.
Is the .257 Roberts the ultimate cartridge? No, which is why my friend Desertranger had his tongue firmly in his cheek when posting this. But obviously many other Campfire members took it way too seriously--which they generally do when big game cartridges are discussed.
I've never had the privilege of hunting the 257 Rob. It's plumb amazing I ever killed anything!
Jerry
I actually owned one for a short time. In the late 70s post 1976 I had a 200th year M 77 in 257 Rob. 1. I didn't know anything about the cartridge and let it get away. 2. YES, the 200 th year of American Liberty
My sincere condolences. My friend Bobby is a bit of an oddball, what with being a "Super Grade". Thinks he has to hide the 5th shot in one of the previous holes. Sneaky devil...
Only owned one .257 Bob. It was a minty 1983 USRAC Featherweight with a pencil barrel. It had a tendency to shoot 100 grain bullets most accurately in the 250 SAV speed range defeating the purpose of loading up Nosler P + brass. So it went down the road to buy another 250 Savage.
It's the best post because the rest all involve the typical minutiae-obsessing over big game rounds. I have taken and seen taken a LOT of big game over the decades, with a lot of different cartridges, and the longer that goes on the less difference I see in how various big game cartridges kill game. As long as the bullet expands and penetrates sufficiently in the vital organs, they basically all work far more similarly than not.
Is the .257 Roberts the ultimate cartridge? No, which is why my friend Desertranger had his tongue firmly in his cheek when posting this. But obviously many other Campfire members took it way too seriously--which they generally do when big game cartridges are discussed.
John, maybe it would be interesting to talk about how many articles you would have published over your lifetime if you only wrote about "cartridges that won't gitterdone."
I'd bet that about 99% of the kills made the last ten years could have easily been made with cartridges that originated well over 100 years ago.
I've never had the privilege of hunting the 257 Rob. It's plumb amazing I ever killed anything!
Jerry
I actually owned one for a short time. In the late 70s post 1976 I had a 200th year M 77 in 257 Rob. 1. I didn't know anything about the cartridge and let it get away. 2. YES, the 200 th year of American Liberty
I have a 200th Year of American Liberty in .257 Roberts. It’s not going anywhere except deer hunting with me.
Mine is well worn from use, not abuse. It belonged to a USMC buddy of mine who passed away a few years ago. He sold me that rifle along with a couple other firearms when he stopped rifle hunting. I’ll treasure it in his memory. It’s a real tack driver with 100 gr TTSX or BT with a healthy dose of Ramshot Hunter.
[ John, maybe it would be interesting to talk about how many articles you would have published over your lifetime if you only wrote about "cartridges that won't gitterdone."
I'd bet that about 99% of the kills made the last ten years could have easily been made with cartridges that originated well over 100 years ago.
Interesting question!
Out of curiosity I just added up the cartridges I've used on big game that were originally developed (sometimes as an almost identical round) by the 1920s. May have forgotten a couple, but there turned out to be 21:
In fact the last big game animal I took, on October 9th, was a pronghorn buck slain with my Sauer 6.5x57R drilling. The cartridge appeared soon after the 6.5x55, in the early 1890s.
BTW, I believe you once said (with respect to the 250 Savage) that about 33 grains of several mid rate powders (Varget being an example) under a 100 grain bullet would produce what Charles Newton had intended. My 700 Classic strongly agrees.
Ordinarily I use a bit stiffer charge of H4895 but I've been short on that and I have a good supply of Varget. Dropping from 2950 to 2800 fps doesn't bother me a bit. The 100 grain Ballistic Tip is still going plenty fast at 300 yards.
Out of curiosity I just added up the cartridges I've used on big game that were originally developed (sometimes as an almost identical round) by the 1920s. May have forgotten a couple, but there turned out to be 19:
My list is not nearly so long: 30-30 (deer, elk, antelope), 25-06 (deer), 45/70 (elk), 270 (deer, elk, moose). I own quite a few other oldies but don't think I've killed big game with any of them.
The .250 Savage was introduced just before World War One, and apparently quite a few people necked it down to .22 shortly afterward, sometimes with slight variations, though the first wildcatter to promote it much was Jerry Gebby, who trademarked the name .22 Varminter in 1937. Browning chambered it in factory rifles in 1963, while it was still a wildcat, but it wasn't until 1965 that Remington adopted it a factory round and started making ammunition.
Variations on the .257 Roberts (the 7x57 necked down) also appeared long before Remington made it factory round in 1934. Evidently several wildcatters came up with versions in the 1920s, though Ned Roberts usually gets the historical credit. His cartridge (which he called the .25 Roberts) had a slightly different shoulder angle than Remington's version.
The first person to promote a wildcat usually gets the credit for developing it, even though the basic is a very old one. The 6x57 Mauser, for instance, appeared as a commercial hunting round in the 1890s, but Warren Page (Field & Stream's shooting columnist) "developed" a very similar wildcat round in the mid-20th century. Remington eventually introduced their version as the .244 Remington in the mid-1950s, with a -12 rifling twist which was too slow to always stabilize commercial 100-grain bullets. But the name got changed to the 6mm Remington a few years later when Remington started putting a 1-9 twist in the barrels.
Jerry, I qualified the statement. Survival. How many rifle rounds can you carry? If you’ll remember one of the reasons for adopting the 223 was the number a soldier could carry compared to the 308. John
[ John, maybe it would be interesting to talk about how many articles you would have published over your lifetime if you only wrote about "cartridges that won't gitterdone."
I'd bet that about 99% of the kills made the last ten years could have easily been made with cartridges that originated well over 100 years ago.
Interesting question!
Out of curiosity I just added up the cartridges I've used on big game that were originally developed (sometimes as an almost identical round) by the 1920s. May have forgotten a couple, but there turned out to be 19:
In fact the last big game animal I took, on October 9th, was a pronghorn buck slain with my Sauer 6.5x57R drilling. The cartridge appeared just after the 6.5x55, in the early 1890s.
Jerry, I qualified the statement. Survival. How many rifle rounds can you carry? If you’ll remember one of the reasons for adopting the 223 was the number a soldier could carry compared to the 308. John
Yes I understand. UIM the military objective also changed some.
Instead of killing 1, by wounding 1 then 2 would help recover the 1 thereby reducing the enemy 3 instead of just 1.
ATST for hunting the game listed, the 22lr isn’t legal.
[ John, maybe it would be interesting to talk about how many articles you would have published over your lifetime if you only wrote about "cartridges that won't gitterdone."
I'd bet that about 99% of the kills made the last ten years could have easily been made with cartridges that originated well over 100 years ago.
Interesting question!
Out of curiosity I just added up the cartridges I've used on big game that were originally developed (sometimes as an almost identical round) by the 1920s. May have forgotten a couple, but there turned out to be 19:
In fact the last big game animal I took, on October 9th, was a pronghorn buck slain with my Sauer 6.5x57R drilling. The cartridge appeared just after the 6.5x55, in the early 1890s.
No 30/06???
Duh! I forgot the most obvious--and have taken more big game with the .30-06 than any other cartridge. Fixed it.
Yeah, it's not new, but for all around use I doubt you can improve on the 30-06. Faster, more powerful, longer bullets, and so on........all are available.
But for the combination of length, weight, power vs recoil, span of bullet weights and types, and trajectory ,with each category being rated on a scale of 1-10 and then the total of each category being added up, I think the 30-06 is the single best big game cartridge ever designed. I can't see much room to improve on it without getting lower ratings (sometimes a lot lower) in one of the other categories.
For a true long action, 26 Nosler is hard to beat.
There's always something faster. Sometimes fast enough is fast enough.
Sure - that's why the short action cartridges exist.
I've never had any trouble carrying a long action 257Roberts. You should get that condition checked out.
If you want to carry a heavier, less effective rifle that's a personal problem. Of course, if it's not heavy and ineffective enough there are ways to make it more of both.
Yeah, it's not new, but for all around use I doubt you can improve on the 30-06.
That's trivial - 300 WSM. Faster, more accurate, reloads better, all around superior. The only people cheering for the .30-06 are the ignorant, the nostalgia clowns, and jokers who forget their ammo and think there's some -30-06 for sale somewhere (there's not).
If you want to carry a heavier, less effective rifle that's a personal problem.
Guess again BOB ..... Google tells me that there's a whopping 3oz difference between the SA and LA. That's HUGE! <eye roll> Next you'll tell me that the time it takes to cycle a LA is prohibitive as well. It's not.
Furthermore BOB, If your hunting is "less effective" because you are carrying a non-magnum cartridge, you might want to re-think your hunting methods but then some guys have to carry a magnum for other reasons.
Originally Posted by Llama_Bob
That's trivial - 300 WSM. Faster, more accurate, reloads better, all around superior. The only people cheering for the .30-06 are the ignorant, the nostalgia clowns, and jokers who forget their ammo and think there's some -30-06 for sale somewhere (there's not).
If you say that enough times, you might even believe that, but no one else will.
Yeah, it's not new, but for all around use I doubt you can improve on the 30-06. Faster, more powerful, longer bullets, and so on........all are available.
But for the combination of length, weight, power vs recoil, span of bullet weights and types, and trajectory ,with each category being rated on a scale of 1-10 and then the total of each category being added up, I think the 30-06 is the single best big game cartridge ever designed. I can't see much room to improve on it without getting lower ratings (sometimes a lot lower) in one of the other categories.
Those newer higher BC bullets don’t hurt it a bit. Kinda makes it like a 6.5 CM with a little extra guts.
Yeah, it's not new, but for all around use I doubt you can improve on the 30-06.
That's trivial - 300 WSM. Faster, more accurate, reloads better, all around superior. The only people cheering for the .30-06 are the ignorant, the nostalgia clowns, and jokers who forget their ammo and think there's some -30-06 for sale somewhere (there's not).
Without a longer (heavier, more awkward) barrel it's a 30-06, feeds like shifting a fencepost in a bucket of gravel in most rifles, it's a tweener 06 and 300WM--kinda' like a 12 year old kid......
Didn’t read any, not one post at all, except your title & want to agree that the .270 Winchester is indeed the single best cartridge ever invented if only to pair with a 375 H&H as the ultimate - undisputed pinnacle of 2 rifle batteries. 😜
But can't resist noting that I have killed quite a bit of big game with the .300 WSM, starting even before it was officially introduced, from pronghorns to a 6x7 bull elk, and been right next to other hunters who shot a similar array of big game with it, both in North America and Africa. Aside from "field-testing" various .300 WSM rifles from different companies, have owned several, including one Winchester Model 70 assembled in Portugal, purchased at a local gun store several years ago, primarily to see how it worked. It worked fine--and I kept it for several years, mostly to have a .300 WSM on hand to "test" factory ammo and handloads.
What I "discovered" during all this hunting and shooting is the .300 WSM gets about 150-200 fps more with bullets from 165-200 grains than the .30-06, from the same length barrel, using the latest handloads--despite the .300 WSM's SAAMI pressure being higher. This means less than a 100-yard "advantage" in terminal velocity at typical hunting ranges when using the same bullet, and even less at 300+ yards--which is one reason field results were similar to the .30-06. (The other reason, of course, is that there ain't much difference in a wide array of cartridges when used with good bullets on big game.)
The big difference I could see in the .300 WSM was more recoil, and more expensive and often harder to find ammo and brass. Which is why I finally ended up selling my Model 70 .300 WSM earlier this year, one of the first rifles I purged from the collection as I started down-sizing toward semi-retirement. Guess I'll just have to struggle along with my NULA .30-06....
The .250 Savage was introduced just before World War One, and apparently quite a few people necked it down to .22 shortly afterward, sometimes with slight variations, though the first wildcatter to promote it much was Jerry Gebby, who trademarked the name .22 Varminter in 1937. Browning chambered it in factory rifles in 1963, while it was still a wildcat, but it wasn't until 1965 that Remington adopted it a factory round and started making ammunition.
Variations on the .257 Roberts (the 7x57 necked down) also appeared long before Remington made it factory round in 1934. Evidently several wildcatters came up with versions in the 1920s, though Ned Roberts usually gets the historical credit. His cartridge (which he called the .25 Roberts) had a slightly different shoulder angle than Remington's version.
The first person to promote a wildcat usually gets the credit for developing it, even though the basic is a very old one. The 6x57 Mauser, for instance, appeared as a commercial hunting round in the 1890s, but Warren Page (Field & Stream's shooting columnist) "developed" a very similar wildcat round in the mid-20th century. Remington eventually introduced their version as the .244 Remington in the mid-1950s, with a -12 rifling twist which was too slow to always stabilize commercial 100-grain bullets. But the name got changed to the 6mm Remington a few years later when Remington started putting a 1-9 twist in the barrels.
Gotcha. That makes sense. Thanks for that.
I think you also forgot the .30-40 Krag....I seem to remember you mentioning that you killed something with it, but I could be mistaken.
I've killed deer with all four of the Savage rounds in 1899s, as well as the .30-40 Krag and a few other ancient cartridges. I enjoy the hell out of newer stuff but sometimes like to break something old out too, just for the heck of it.
But can't resist noting that I have killed quite a bit of big game with the .300 WSM, starting even before it was officially introduced, from pronghorns to a 6x7 bull elk, and been right next to other hunters who shot a similar array of big game with it, both in North America and Africa. Aside from "field-testing" various .300 WSM rifles from different companies, have owned several, including one Winchester Model 70 assembled in Portugal, purchased at a local gun store several years ago, primarily to see how it worked. It worked fine--and I kept it for several years, mostly to have a .300 WSM on hand to "test" factory ammo and handloads.
What I "discovered" during all this hunting and shooting is the .300 WSM gets about 150-200 fps more with bullets from 165-200 grains than the .30-06, from the same length barrel, using the latest handloads--despite the .300 WSM's SAAMI pressure being higher. This means less than a 100-yard "advantage" in terminal velocity at typical hunting ranges when using the same bullet, and even less at 300+ yards--which is one reason field results were similar to the .30-06. (The other reason, of course, is that there ain't much difference in a wide array of cartridges when used with good bullets on big game.)
The big difference I could see in the .300 WSM was more recoil, and more expensive and often harder to find ammo and brass. Which is why I finally ended up selling my Model 70 .300 WSM earlier this year, one of the first rifles I purged from the collection as I started down-sizing toward semi-retirement. Guess I'll just have to struggle along with my NULA .30-06....
Poor MD, I can't imagine the struggle with a NULA. Someday....
I think you also forgot the .30-40 Krag....I seem to remember you mentioning that you killed something with it, but I could be mistaken.
I've killed deer with all four of the Savage rounds in 1899s, as well as the .30-40 Krag and a few other ancient cartridges. I enjoy the hell out of newer stuff but sometimes like to break something old out too, just for the heck of it.
Yep, forgot the Krag. Changed it.
Should have consulted my hunting notes instead of relying on memory!
Wow, I’m surprised at number of posts that have responded to my “Ultimate” thread! As JB noted I initiated this topic as a salute to the fine 257 Roberts which has served me well since the early 70’s. I have taken some fine creatures with the Roberts and will post some photos of them if I ever figure out how to do so. Claims of success without photos certainly can raise an eyebrow. Having said that I have typically tried to tailor the rifle/cartridge to the game I’m hunting. For example a 257 Roberts was not taken to the Alaskan Peninsula to hunt Brown Bear, a 300 H&H was. On a mixed bag hunt to British Columbia I took my Winchester 270 and glad to have done so. I saw two enormous Bears that fortunately left the country when they winded us. I guess what I was trying to communicate is that for the deer/pronghorn/sheep that most of us hunt, I have found the Roberts most useful. Granted when I included sheep in that category I was excluding hunting sheep where nasty bears may be encountered. Jack O’Connor once quoted an Indian who said, any gun good shootem good. That sums it up in my book, good hunting whatever you carry!
...Jack O’Connor once quoted an Indian who said, any gun good shootem good. That sums it up in my book, good hunting whatever you carry!
An excellent summation. We live and hunt in so many different places, chasing all kinds of game. Everyone is gonna have a fave, even if it changes occasionally. 😃
I have always had a soft spot for the Roberts, but never got one. I shoot a 260 Rem, but do not push it hard. My load for this year is a 110 grain Hammer bullet at 2985 fps. Should do about as good as the Bob, but i know, it still isn't one! Some day I want a 257 Roberts or a 250-3000 savage! Need to scratch the quarter bore itch!
Without a longer (heavier, more awkward) barrel it's a 30-06,
Wrong. The WSM is faster at all barrel lengths, more accurate, fits in smaller rifles, and is just flat out better. There is no question, and no useful grounds for the .30-06 to compete on. The .300 WSM is simply superior to the .30-06.
Go ahead, tell me how wonderful the .30-06 is if you forget your ammo! Do it!
And one again we discover the ,30-06 fangirls are the most sensitive out there. When the failure of their garbage cartridge is pointed out, the cry and whine. But they can't defend it, because the .30-06 lacks any advantages..
And one again we discover the ,30-06 fangirls are the most sensitive out there. When the failure of their garbage cartridge is pointed out, the cry and whine. But they can't defend it, because the .30-06 lacks any advantages..
Captain America here only shoots the Best of the Best. ...... <LOL>
And one again we discover the ,30-06 fangirls are the most sensitive out there. When the failure of their garbage cartridge is pointed out, the cry and whine. But they can't defend it, because the .30-06 lacks any advantages..
Funny post! Seems to me the fangirl for the 300 WSM is crying out for attention which is needed since his puzzy hurts bad over the 30-06 being so good if you have one you don't need a 300 WSM. That brass for the 30-06 is always available and cheap is a nice touch also.
Without a longer (heavier, more awkward) barrel it's a 30-06,
Wrong. The WSM is faster at all barrel lengths, more accurate, fits in smaller rifles, and is just flat out better. There is no question, and no useful grounds for the .30-06 to compete on. The .300 WSM is simply superior to the .30-06.
Go ahead, tell me how wonderful the .30-06 is if you forget your ammo! Do it!
According to the Winchester website the M70 FWTs in 30/06 and 300WSM both weigh 7lbs. The WSM is 1.5" longer due to its 24" bbl.
The higher velocity of the WSM (180gr Power Points) results it about 2" less drop at 300 yards. So for the vast majority of hunters, what is the advantage?
Oh, perhaps the advantage is the 20% increase in recoil?
Let's see if you an respond without childish insults...
Here's my .257 Roberts, a Ruger #1-A. After some stock tweaking and load development, I have settled on an 80 gr. Barnes TTSX bullet, ahead of Hybrid 100V powder. This load shoots sub-MOA, and is a real pleasure to shoot. My preferred rifle for stand hunting for Whitetail.
And one again we discover the ,30-06 fangirls are the most sensitive out there. When the failure of their garbage cartridge is pointed out, the cry and whine. But they can't defend it, because the .30-06 lacks any advantages..
Seriously? You call the 30-06 a garbage cartridge? You are too dim witted to be a halfwitt. I guess you are fully capable of being a dumbass.
According to the Winchester website the M70 FWTs in 30/06 and 300WSM both weigh 7lbs. The WSM is 1.5" longer due to its 24" bbl.
The higher velocity of the WSM (180gr Power Points) results it about 2" less drop at 300 yards. So for the vast majority of hunters, what is the advantage?
Oh, perhaps the advantage is the 20% increase in recoil?
Let's see if you an respond without childish insults...
Short actions are lighter. That's just a fact. The WSM also saves you on EFFECTIVE barrel length because the length that covers the case is wasted. So It is lighter both for the barrel and the action. Those are basic facts which anyone should be able to understand.
Drop is irrelevant. Buy a rangefinder. The reason you shoot a faster round is to reduce your windage and therefore susceptibility to wind call error and to extend the range of reliable expansion.
If you are looking for reduced recoil buy a 6mm Creedmoor.
Seriously? You call the 30-06 a garbage cartridge? You are too dim witted to be a halfwitt. I guess you are fully capable of being a dumbass.
It is absolutely a garbage cartridge. It was junk militarily (far too heavy, far too big a bore diameter, and of course the -03 clown show initially) and junk as a sporting cartridge (numerous failings). The .276 Pedersen was merely the first of many superior alternatives in the US sphere, with the .30-06 falling behind both our own development and that of the Europeans in the interwar years. By WW2 it was unquestionably a liability.
I particularly liked this comment from LameBrain on NULAs:
"Yeah, let's spend $4000 on a push feed, non-free-floated rifle notorious for accuracy issues that only takes [bleep] cartridge triggers."
Oh, sorry, it's only $3600 for the non-magnum and $3900 for the magnum. So we've finally found something the .30-06 is good for - getting a poorly though out and absurdly overpriced rifle a little cheaper.
You can use that $300 to buy ammo at Bob's Gas Station in the bizarre yet often discussed "I forgot my ammo" situation the .30-06 fangirls like to bring up
And one again we discover the ,30-06 fangirls are the most sensitive out there. When the failure of their garbage cartridge is pointed out, the cry and whine. But they can't defend it, because the .30-06 lacks any advantages..
I don’t even have an ‘06 presently. I bet you were not notified of your class reunion either.
Again, it’s not so much what you say, though there is that, but how you say it. It's tough to go through life angry and spiteful.
And one again we discover the ,30-06 fangirls are the most sensitive out there. When the failure of their garbage cartridge is pointed out, the cry and whine. But they can't defend it, because the .30-06 lacks any advantages..
I don’t even have an ‘06 presently. I bet you were not notified of your class reunion either.
Again, it’s not so much what you say, though there is that, but how you say it. It's tough to go through life angry and spiteful.
cheer up!
Oh, I'm not angry at all. I'm enjoying laughing at the .30-06 fangirls
And one again we discover the ,30-06 fangirls are the most sensitive out there. When the failure of their garbage cartridge is pointed out, the cry and whine. But they can't defend it, because the .30-06 lacks any advantages..
Yep, no doubt about it, the '06 is a failure. I don't think it's gonna catch on.
And one again we discover the ,30-06 fangirls are the most sensitive out there. When the failure of their garbage cartridge is pointed out, the cry and whine. But they can't defend it, because the .30-06 lacks any advantages..
Yep, no doubt about it, the '06 is a failure. I don't think it's gonna catch on.
[/quote] Poor MD, I can't imagine the struggle with a NULA. Someday....
I particularly liked this comment from LameBrain on NULAs:
"Yeah, let's spend $4000 on a push feed, non-free-floated rifle notorious for accuracy issues that only takes [bleep] cartridge triggers." [/quote] MD... my comment was jealous sarcasm. Mostly jealousy ☺️
I also know LameBrain's statement means he has no experience with NULAs.
One I remember in particular Melvin built for Ross Seyfried, for a wildcat based on the .416 Rigby,. Can't remember exactly what the case was necked down to, but seem to recall .338. Ross wrote an article about "Miss America" (his name for the rifle) in Guns & Ammo, reporting on the small groups at a mile. The U.S. military was so impressed they asked if they could test it.
Ross sent it off--but then they refused to send it back, saying the results were so good they'd decided to appropriate the rifle. Ross finally had to contact one of the Colorado members of Congress to get it back....
According to the Winchester website the M70 FWTs in 30/06 and 300WSM both weigh 7lbs. The WSM is 1.5" longer due to its 24" bbl.
The higher velocity of the WSM (180gr Power Points) results it about 2" less drop at 300 yards. So for the vast majority of hunters, what is the advantage?
Oh, perhaps the advantage is the 20% increase in recoil?
Let's see if you an respond without childish insults...
Short actions are lighter. That's just a fact. The WSM also saves you on EFFECTIVE barrel length because the length that covers the case is wasted. So It is lighter both for the barrel and the action. Those are basic facts which anyone should be able to understand.
Drop is irrelevant. Buy a rangefinder. The reason you shoot a faster round is to reduce your windage and therefore susceptibility to wind call error and to extend the range of reliable expansion.
If you are looking for reduced recoil buy a 6mm Creedmoor.
Gotta admit, one thing you are good at is splitting hairs. The significant difference in weight of a short action??? Can't be too much if the FWT M70 weighs the same in both cartridges.
And the increased EFFECTIVE barrel length?? Try measuring what the the difference in MV means in drop (or wind deflection) at "normal" ranges in the real world, in hunting conditions.
You could use either cartridge for a lifetime of hunting and never notice a difference in effectiveness in the real world.
It's very amusing reading these threads. There is probably no better cartridge than the 30-06. Don't get me wrong...I load and shoot the 30-30, 32 WS, 303 Sav, 300 Sav, 243, 6.5 CM, 7-08, 270, 22 CHeetah MKII and 30-06. They are all great cartridges. But , realistically, the 30-06 is the most consistent, dynamic cartridge of all of these. It's great to be a Loony enough to spend my time and $ shooting all of these but it I had to choose just one...it would be the 30-06. If you live in North America....you can cover everything with it. But it's still fun playing with these other calibers...hence the loonyism.
It's very amusing reading these threads. There is probably no better cartridge than the 30-06. Don't get me wrong...I load and shoot the 30-30, 32 WS, 303 Sav, 300 Sav, 243, 6.5 CM, 7-08, 270, 22 CHeetah MKII and 30-06. They are all great cartridges. But , realistically, the 30-06 is the most consistent, dynamic cartridge of all of these. It's great to be a Loony enough to spend my time and $ shooting all of these but it I had to choose just one...it would be the 30-06. If you live in North America....you can cover everything with it. But it's still fun playing with these other calibers...hence the loonyism.
I agree. When I set out to begin acquiring big game rifles of my own I was urged to go with the .30-06, but it just seemed so "pedestrian," probably because it was and is so common. I avoided it for years, but as we discussed in a thread a few months ago I read about the cartridge described as a new wildcat named the .300 Whelen. That article gave me a new perspective and I began to think it would be a very good one to use. When a BACO Model 70 in .30-06 came my way in a swap I took it with no misgivings and it has turned out to be a very good shooter. It also happens to be my "lucky" rifle these days...got a hog with it one afternoon and a coyote less than an hour later. On paper, maybe it isn't impressive when compared to some of the larger cartridges but in the field, it is *all that* IMO.
I also know LameBrain's statement means he has no experience with NULAs.
One I remember in particular Melvin built for Ross Seyfried, for a wildcat based on the .416 Rigby,. Can't remember exactly what the case was necked down to, but seem to recall .338. Ross wrote an article about "Miss America" (his name for the rifle) in Guns & Ammo, reporting on the small groups at a mile. The U.S. military was so impressed they asked if they could test it.
Ross sent it off--but then they refused to send it back, saying the results were so good they'd decided to appropriate the rifle. Ross finally had to contact one of the Colorado members of Congress to get it back....
All I’ll say is my NULA is the most accurate, easy to load for rifle in my collection. It’s a 7-08. My advice to someone who could afford it, even if stretching, who wanted only one rifle, would be to get a NULA in 30-06. There’s not much you couldn’t do with that.
I also know LameBrain's statement means he has no experience with NULAs.
One I remember in particular Melvin built for Ross Seyfried, for a wildcat based on the .416 Rigby,. Can't remember exactly what the case was necked down to, but seem to recall .338. Ross wrote an article about "Miss America" (his name for the rifle) in Guns & Ammo, reporting on the small groups at a mile. The U.S. military was so impressed they asked if they could test it.
Ross sent it off--but then they refused to send it back, saying the results were so good they'd decided to appropriate the rifle. Ross finally had to contact one of the Colorado members of Congress to get it back....
All I’ll say is my NULA is the most accurate, easy to load for rifle in my collection. It’s a 7-08. My advice to someone who could afford it, even if stretching, who wanted only one rifle, would be to get a NULA in 30-06. There’s not much you couldn’t do with that.
But, the old '06 is so boring, it just keeps on killin' stuff, year in and year out.
And a boringly accurate rifle that you don't have to mess with, nothing to tweak...
I also know LameBrain's statement means he has no experience with NULAs.
One I remember in particular Melvin built for Ross Seyfried, for a wildcat based on the .416 Rigby,. Can't remember exactly what the case was necked down to, but seem to recall .338. Ross wrote an article about "Miss America" (his name for the rifle) in Guns & Ammo, reporting on the small groups at a mile. The U.S. military was so impressed they asked if they could test it.
Ross sent it off--but then they refused to send it back, saying the results were so good they'd decided to appropriate the rifle. Ross finally had to contact one of the Colorado members of Congress to get it back....
All I’ll say is my NULA is the most accurate, easy to load for rifle in my collection. It’s a 7-08. My advice to someone who could afford it, even if stretching, who wanted only one rifle, would be to get a NULA in 30-06. There’s not much you couldn’t do with that.
But, the old '06 is so boring, it just keeps on killin' stuff, year in and year out.
And a boringly accurate rifle that you don't have to mess with, nothing to tweak...
When are you going to fiddle with the big bores? 😜
Dont know.....never had a need to. Been having too much fun with the small bores! Had a 45-70 once, but here in NC...did not need it so it went down the road. Same with 7mmMag. Now I'm too old to adventure out into the wilderness like I use to so I stick with things I know and enjoy. My bucket list is often filled reading about you younger guys doing the hard core stuff. I live it cause I know I'll never personally do it but can vision it thru your discriptions!
And one again we discover the ,30-06 fangirls are the most sensitive out there. When the failure of their garbage cartridge is pointed out, the cry and whine. But they can't defend it, because the .30-06 lacks any advantages..
Yep, no doubt about it, the '06 is a failure. I don't think it's gonna catch on.
Lots of [bleep] things catch on - like the McDonalds hamburger. It's undoubtedly the most popular hamburger in the world, and it's a thin grey slab of Q-grade beef often times with cellulose and soy filler. It's garbage. But it's immensely popular.
The .30-06 is the same way - a garbage cartridge that gained a following because the army in their infinite stupidity adopted it. The American hunter would have been far better off with something like the 9,3x64 Brenneke necked to whatever bullet diameter they wanted but the McDonalds woodburger won out.
We'll be back with the conclusion of our Friday Fright Night movie, Dr. Grendel and Mr. Wylde, after this message from The Brass Monkey - America's cartridge store.
The 30-06
The 30-06 is a real man's tote, With an envious history that's worthy of note. As pure and as pious as an Ave Maria, As fun and as funky as a Cherry Garcia.
It never went stale like the short magnums did. Or disappointed deer hunters (Heaven forbid!) From varmints to deer, big bears and more. Through Korea and Asia and two world wars.
Shot from Springfields, Garands and BARs, It's earned its fair share of battlefield scars. From 1906 to the present day, It hasn't slowed down. It's not getting gray.
But what of the question: just what can't it do? The answer is "nothing", but you already knew. It's always been the best of America's picks. The legend continues. The 30-06.
This thread seems to be one of those which is the very best cartridge/rifle etc. I own a few short actions but I like long actions more than short. I like “too much cartridge” more than “too little”. I like push feed and I have controlled feed, not sure why, but think a push feed is my favorite. I have said before that I like 30-06 best, but I don’t know anymore. Certainly have killed more deer with a 30-06 than any other cartridge, but for pronghorns, for elk and for bear??? I guess the 30-06 would not always be my first choice, especially for pronghorns. I like 270’s, 280’s, 7mm magnums, 7x57’s, 7.92x57,257’s, 25-06’s, 300 magnums of all sorts, 308’s, 300 Savage, 223’s, 222’s, 22-250’s, 6mm’s, 35 calibers of all sorts, 375’s, 45 calibers of all sorts, even the 303 Brit is a pretty good cartridge, not to mention AI’s in above, muzzle loader, lever guns, single shots - there seems to be no end. But I’m not much of a fan of ultra-magnums any more. If I were forced to have only one cartridge or only one rifle manufacture’s model, it would be tough. But I’d probably end up with a long action 700 BDL I suppose, and for a cartridge - depends on the day I’d guess.
My “Petzal” comment was meant to reflect what I think his acerbic comment would be regarding this topic — that there isn’t enough different between about twenty cartridges mentioned here to amount to spit.
And one again we discover the ,30-06 fangirls are the most sensitive out there. When the failure of their garbage cartridge is pointed out, the cry and whine. But they can't defend it, because the .30-06 lacks any advantages..
I don’t even have an ‘06 presently. I bet you were not notified of your class reunion either.
Again, it’s not so much what you say, though there is that, but how you say it. It's tough to go through life angry and spiteful.
cheer up!
Oh, I'm not angry at all. I'm enjoying laughing at the .30-06 fangirls
[quote=Bugger]This thread seems to be one of those which is the very best cartridge/rifle etc. I own a few short actions but I like long actions more than short. I like “too much cartridge” more than “too little”. I like push feed and I have controlled feed, not sure why, but think a push feed is my favorite. I have said before that I like 30-06 best, but I don’t know anymore. Certainly have killed more deer with a 30-06 than any other cartridge, but for pronghorns, for elk and for bear??? I guess the 30-06 would not always be my first choice, especially for pronghorns. I like 270’s, 280’s, 7mm magnums, 7x57’s, 7.92x57,257’s, 25-06’s, 300 magnums of all sorts, 308’s, 300 Savage, 223’s, 222’s, 22-250’s, 6mm’s, 35 calibers of all sorts, 375’s, 45 calibers of all sorts, even the 303 Brit is a pretty good cartridge, not to mention AI’s in above, muzzle loader, lever guns, single shots - there seems to be no end. But I’m not much of a fan of ultra-magnums any more. If I were forced to have only one cartridge or only one rifle manufacture’s model, it would be tough. But I’d probably end up with a long action 700 BDL I suppose, and for a cartridge - depends on the day I’d guess. —————/—————
Man Oh Man.. you might change your mind after this.
You sound LIKE me. I’m serious.
I like quite a few cartridges however....
I don’t own ONE short action cartridge or rifle. Too much doesn’t hurt.. Too little can leave you disappointed.
I have and HAVE HAD more 700s than ANY other brand/model.
THIS thread ‘specifivally’ named the Deer species etc. For THAT purpose I pick the 270 Win.
**But for ONE cartridge for “North America”.... I pick the 7 RM w/o reservations.
The ONLY reason I pick the 7 over the 06 is Trajectory!! The 06 is NOT as flat Shooting as the 7 RM.
I’m completely satisfied and confident that those two rounds will handle ANY critter in N A.
We'll be back with the conclusion of our Friday Fright Night movie, Dr. Grendel and Mr. Wylde, after this message from The Brass Monkey - America's cartridge store.
The 30-06
The 30-06 is a real man's tote, With an envious history that's worthy of note. As pure and as pious as an Ave Maria, As fun and as funky as a Cherry Garcia.
It never went stale like the short magnums did. Or disappointed deer hunters (Heaven forbid!) From varmints to deer, big bears and more. Through Korea and Asia and two world wars.
Shot from Springfields, Garands and BARs, It's earned its fair share of battlefield scars. From 1906 to the present day, It hasn't slowed down. It's not getting gray.
But what of the question: just what can't it do? The answer is "nothing", but you already knew. It's always been the best of America's picks. The legend continues. The 30-06.
-2012, Stephen Redgwell
I had to steal a copy of that! Not a whole lot that it cannot do. Man can get out of a lotta trouble with $700 and a 30-06
My “Petzal” comment was meant to reflect what I think his acerbic comment would be regarding this topic — that there isn’t enough different between about twenty cartridges mentioned here to amount to spit.
In the real world this is the most accurate post in this thread.
Somebody posted something similar pretty early in the thread:
"I have taken and seen taken a LOT of big game over the decades, with a lot of different cartridges, and the longer that goes on the less difference I see in how various big game cartridges kill game. As long as the bullet expands and penetrates sufficiently in the vital organs, they basically all work far more similarly than not."
When are you going to fiddle with the big bores? 😜
Dont know.....never had a need to. Been having too much fun with the small bores! Had a 45-70 once, but here in NC...did not need it so it went down the road. Same with 7mmMag. Now I'm too old to adventure out into the wilderness like I use to so I stick with things I know and enjoy. My bucket list is often filled reading about you younger guys doing the hard core stuff. I live it cause I know I'll never personally do it but can vision it thru your discriptions!
I don't really need a 45-70 either. That's why I have two of them
And one again we discover the ,30-06 fangirls are the most sensitive out there. When the failure of their garbage cartridge is pointed out, the cry and whine. But they can't defend it, because the .30-06 lacks any advantages..
Yep, no doubt about it, the '06 is a failure. I don't think it's gonna catch on.
Lots of [bleep] things catch on - like the McDonalds hamburger. It's undoubtedly the most popular hamburger in the world, and it's a thin grey slab of Q-grade beef often times with cellulose and soy filler. It's garbage. But it's immensely popular.
The .30-06 is the same way - a garbage cartridge that gained a following because the army in their infinite stupidity adopted it. The American hunter would have been far better off with something like the 9,3x64 Brenneke necked to whatever bullet diameter they wanted but the McDonalds woodburger won out.
I never got a Grey burger in my life from McDonalds. I don't know what kind of third world backwater you frequent?
We'll be back with the conclusion of our Friday Fright Night movie, Dr. Grendel and Mr. Wylde, after this message from The Brass Monkey - America's cartridge store.
The 30-06
The 30-06 is a real man's tote, With an envious history that's worthy of note. As pure and as pious as an Ave Maria, As fun and as funky as a Cherry Garcia.
It never went stale like the short magnums did. Or disappointed deer hunters (Heaven forbid!) From varmints to deer, big bears and more. Through Korea and Asia and two world wars.
Shot from Springfields, Garands and BARs, It's earned its fair share of battlefield scars. From 1906 to the present day, It hasn't slowed down. It's not getting gray.
But what of the question: just what can't it do? The answer is "nothing", but you already knew. It's always been the best of America's picks. The legend continues. The 30-06.
-2012, Stephen Redgwell
Burma-Shave.
🤭 Steve, my apologies. Look how the rabble treat fine poetry. Memories from my inner childhood. 😀
And one again we discover the ,30-06 fangirls are the most sensitive out there. When the failure of their garbage cartridge is pointed out, the cry and whine. But they can't defend it, because the .30-06 lacks any advantages..
Yep, no doubt about it, the '06 is a failure. I don't think it's gonna catch on.
Lots of [bleep] things catch on - like the McDonalds hamburger. It's undoubtedly the most popular hamburger in the world, and it's a thin grey slab of Q-grade beef often times with cellulose and soy filler. It's garbage. But it's immensely popular.
The .30-06 is the same way - a garbage cartridge that gained a following because the army in their infinite stupidity adopted it. The American hunter would have been far better off with something like the 9,3x64 Brenneke necked to whatever bullet diameter they wanted but the McDonalds woodburger won out.
. OK Bob, if the 06 is one of the most popular cartridges ever, please explain why it's a "failure." Does it fail to kill big game??
BTW, saying the McDonald's hamburger is a failure is the funniest thing I've heard in quite some time, thanks for the laugh. A "failure" of the kind you wish you'd thought of.
OK Bob, if the 06 is one of the most popular cartridges ever, please explain why it's a "failure."
It's a failure because it's bad at what it does. As a military round, it was too expensive per round, too bulky and heavy thus impeding logistics, and offered nothing in return. The 6mm Navy was superior in every respect (although likewise needing an upgrade to a spitzer bullet and later powders and a Mauser-type rifle), but this being the Army they couldn't admit that. Similarly the 275 Pedersen was superior in all respects, but the Army couldn't listen to John Garand, so they stuck with [bleep].
As a hunting round, it's bigger diameter than it needs to be for non-dangerous game, and not big enough for dangerous game. It manages to be [bleep] at both. The case has excess taper and the wrong neck angle hurting accuracy and reloadability, not to mention costing some velocity for no benefit.
Hell, even the original rifles were abject [bleep] that everyone now agrees are unsafe-to-fire wallhangers. They were [bleep] when they came out too, but the Army ignored it.
Quote
BTW, saying the McDonald's hamburger is a failure is the funniest thing I've heard in quite some time, thanks for the laugh. A "failure" of the kind you wish you'd thought of.
Well, this goes a long way to explain you. You're one of those people who can't tell their ass from a hole in the ground. When confronted with a low grade, overcooked burger filled with cellulose and soy, you're apparently overjoyed. It's easy to see why you wouldn't be able to tell a good cartridge from a bad one, because you apparently can't tell a good hamburger from [bleep] either.
If the ‘06 is so bad I wonder what the all knowing LB thinks of the lowly .308?
The point of the .308 was to achieve the same performance as the .30-06 in a short action, which it did. The case is also improved in terms of taper. It is a better cartridge than the .30-06, but often saddled with a retarded 1:12 twist rate.
Lamebrain, you didn't answer the one question I asked, see if you can answer it this time: does the 06 fail to kill big game?
As far as McDonalds burgers go, I don't eat them you nitwit. But that doesn't mean they're not a success. The idea behind them was to sell burgers and make money, and in that regard they're one of the .most successful products ever brought to market; there's no denying that.
Just like the 06. The fact that you like to piss and moan about minutiae doesn't change that.
It is worse at killing big game than many other cartridges. It requires a heavier rifle, has less range, reloads worse, and is inherently less accurate. And offers nothing in return of any value.
OK Bob, if the 06 is one of the most popular cartridges ever, please explain why it's a "failure."
It's a failure because it's bad at what it does. As a military round, it was too expensive per round, too bulky and heavy thus impeding logistics, and offered nothing in return. The 6mm Navy was superior in every respect (although likewise needing an upgrade to a spitzer bullet and later powders and a Mauser-type rifle), but this being the Army they couldn't admit that. Similarly the 275 Pedersen was superior in all respects, but the Army couldn't listen to John Garand, so they stuck with [bleep].
As a hunting round, it's bigger diameter than it needs to be for non-dangerous game, and not big enough for dangerous game. It manages to be [bleep] at both. The case has excess taper and the wrong neck angle hurting accuracy and reloadability, not to mention costing some velocity for no benefit.
Hell, even the original rifles were abject [bleep] that everyone now agrees are unsafe-to-fire wallhangers. They were [bleep] when they came out too, but the Army ignored it.
Quote
BTW, saying the McDonald's hamburger is a failure is the funniest thing I've heard in quite some time, thanks for the laugh. A "failure" of the kind you wish you'd thought of.
Well, this goes a long way to explain you. You're one of those people who can't tell their ass from a hole in the ground. When confronted with a low grade, overcooked burger filled with cellulose and soy, you're apparently overjoyed. It's easy to see why you wouldn't be able to tell a good cartridge from a bad one, because you apparently can't tell a good hamburger from [bleep] either.
Try some Vagisil. Vaginitis can be very troublesome.
It is worse at killing big game than many other cartridges. It requires a heavier rifle, has less range, reloads worse, and is inherently less accurate. And offers nothing in return of any value.
Worse as in how? I have used the 30-06 on all of the lower 48 game animals except grizzly and moose. I used it on more Elk than any other cartridge at short range and as far as 450 yards. I have also killed elk with 270, 7MM RM, 300 WM and 338 WM rifles. One of the elk killed with the 338 traveled farther than any shot with the others by far. I believe you are just another dumbass.
It is worse at killing big game than many other cartridges. It requires a heavier rifle, has less range, reloads worse, and is inherently less accurate. And offers nothing in return of any value.
Worse as in how? I have used the 30-06 on all of the lower 48 game animals except grizzly and moose. I used it on more Elk than any other cartridge at short range and as far as 450 yards. I have also killed elk with 270, 7MM RM, 300 WM and 338 WM rifles. One of the elk killed with the 338 traveled farther than any shot with the others by far. I believe you are just another dumbass.
Just for fun I looked through my hunting notes and came up with the following list of animals taken with various .30-06s, plus Eileen's total. She used to use it quite a bit as her "big" cartridge when hunting stuff that might be a little out of the class of smaller cartridges, or when hunting in potential grizzly country:
Pronghorns Whitetails (in Montana etc. Mule deer Elk (have killed more with .30-06 than any other cartridge, including my biggest bull—which didn’t go as as those lung-shot with the .300 Winchester and Weatherby Magnums) Black bear Caribou (my longest shot and biggest bull) Red stag, both in Europe and New Zealand Numerous feral goats and pigs (both are considered among the toughest big game animals of their size) Springbok Bushbuck Kudu (my second-longest shot in Africa, 360 yards up a mountain, which dropped when hit doe to the 180 Nosler Partition breaking the downhill leg and then then spine)
Eileen: Bighorn sheep (hunting in grizzly country) Black bear Gemsbok Kudu Red hartebeest Blue wildebeest (These four African animals are considered among the tougher to bring down.)
Have also had around a dozen companions use the .30-06 when hunting in various places from Africa to Alaska, and none had any trouble killing a similar list of animals.
It is worse at killing big game than many other cartridges. It requires a heavier rifle, has less range, reloads worse, and is inherently less accurate. And offers nothing in return of any value.
Heavier rifle???: M70 FWTs list the same weight for the 06 and many others, including your beloved 300 WSM
Less range??? Plenty of range for "normal" hunting. We all know that ultra BCs and fast twists are needed at extended ranges, but for the vast majority of hunters, they are irrelevant. , Inherent accuracy??? Might make a difference in rifles built for bench rest competition....not for hunting rifles. (one doesn't need 1/2 MOA to place bullets on target with game animals,
Give it up, Bob...that is unless you just enjoy being a troll, and providing entertainment. But no one is taking your arguments seriously
And, BTW, I recall in a previous diatribe you once said that the shoulder angle on the 06 is "too steep"....guess trigonometry was not your forte
It is worse at killing big game than many other cartridges. It requires a heavier rifle, has less range, reloads worse, and is inherently less accurate. And offers nothing in return of any value.
Worse as in how? I have used the 30-06 on all of the lower 48 game animals except grizzly and moose. I used it on more Elk than any other cartridge at short range and as far as 450 yards. I have also killed elk with 270, 7MM RM, 300 WM and 338 WM rifles. One of the elk killed with the 338 traveled farther than any shot with the others by far. I believe you are just another dumbass.
Just for fun I looked through my hunting notes and came up with the following list of animals taken with various .30-06s, plus Eileen's total. She used to use it quite a bit as her "big" cartridge when hunting stuff that might be a little out of the class of smaller cartridges, or when hunting in potential grizzly country:
Pronghorns Whitetails (in Montana etc. Mule deer Elk (have killed more with .30-06 than any other cartridge, including my biggest bull—which didn’t go as as those lung-shot with the .300 Winchester and Weatherby Magnums) Black bear Caribou (my longest shot and biggest bull) Red stag, both in Europe and New Zealand Numerous feral goats and pigs (both are considered among the toughest big game animals of their size) Springbok Bushbuck Kudu (my second-longest shot in Africa, 360 yards up a mountain, which dropped when hit doe to the 180 Nosler Partition breaking the downhill leg and then then spine)
Eileen: Bighorn sheep (hunting in grizzly country) Black bear Gemsbok Kudu Red hartebeest Blue wildebeest (These four African animals are considered among the tougher to bring down.)
Have also had around a dozen companions use the .30-06 when hunting in various places from Africa to Alaska, and none had any trouble killing a similar list of animals.
When I was a youngster I thought 30-06 was a big bore. When dad bought me a Springfield and mounted a K4 Weaver on it, I thought I had the perfect rifle for coyotes on up. The stock was cut down military stock with a home made cheek piece and a recoil pad added. (I had a 6mm before that 30-06 and maybe a 264 then a 22-250 a few years after). I'm still not so sure that a Springfield with a K4 doesn't come close to a perfect rifle for game. I mainly used cast 170 grain hollow points for deer, then when I could afford it I used 165 or 180 grain CL's. That combination never failed me. I just used loads that were in my Lyman manual. I had no chronograph and I didn't know anyone that had one. However my brother built a swinging weight that: after it was hit it swung back and pushed a rod. Measuring the amount the rod was displaced and using some basic physics it gave us an idea the velocity of the bullet. But I what the manual said was good enough I thought. There are other cartridges that are flatter shooting or have more energy or kick less but most of my shots at deer were under 100 yards, certainly under 200 yards - a point blank range that didn't require a ultra magnum cartridge to get a solid hit. I can not understand why someone would diss the 30-06. It may not be the very best in every use, but it works well in almost every use on everything I'll ever shoot (OK except Prairie Dogs). Cast bullets work well and there's lots of bullets that are perfect for the most popular center fire cartridge in the USA.
It is worse at killing big game than many other cartridges. It requires a heavier rifle, has less range, reloads worse, and is inherently less accurate. And offers nothing in return of any value.
Llama, give up while you're behind. You're leaving no doubt as to what a dumbasss you are.
Facts are facts, and the fact is the .30-06 is a [bleep] cartridge. I really care nothing for the approval of the fangirls. You can sit there and jerk each other off and talk about how great grandpa carried a .30-06 while standing guard at his clerk barracks for all I care. None of that makes the .30-06 any better as a cartridge. It's still [bleep].
After having read the OP and NOT having read any of the responses so as to not be poisoned by the arguments contained therein that I'm sure followed, let me just say: "Oh look, someone who has a reasonable and subjective preference other than mine. Good for him."
It is worse at killing big game than many other cartridges. It requires a heavier rifle, has less range, reloads worse, and is inherently less accurate. And offers nothing in return of any value.
Worse as in how? I have used the 30-06 on all of the lower 48 game animals except grizzly and moose. I used it on more Elk than any other cartridge at short range and as far as 450 yards. I have also killed elk with 270, 7MM RM, 300 WM and 338 WM rifles. One of the elk killed with the 338 traveled farther than any shot with the others by far. I believe you are just another dumbass.
Just for fun I looked through my hunting notes and came up with the following list of animals taken with various .30-06s, plus Eileen's total. She used to use it quite a bit as her "big" cartridge when hunting stuff that might be a little out of the class of smaller cartridges, or when hunting in potential grizzly country:
Pronghorns Whitetails (in Montana etc. Mule deer Elk (have killed more with .30-06 than any other cartridge, including my biggest bull—which didn’t go as as those lung-shot with the .300 Winchester and Weatherby Magnums) Black bear Caribou (my longest shot and biggest bull) Red stag, both in Europe and New Zealand Numerous feral goats and pigs (both are considered among the toughest big game animals of their size) Springbok Bushbuck Kudu (my second-longest shot in Africa, 360 yards up a mountain, which dropped when hit doe to the 180 Nosler Partition breaking the downhill leg and then then spine)
Eileen: Bighorn sheep (hunting in grizzly country) Black bear Gemsbok Kudu Red hartebeest Blue wildebeest (These four African animals are considered among the tougher to bring down.)
Have also had around a dozen companions use the .30-06 when hunting in various places from Africa to Alaska, and none had any trouble killing a similar list of animals.
LB, you do have passion, and you may have some nuanced points, but like how many Dutch girls have small feet — none — that is the “practical field difference” in most hunting scenarios between the 308 and the older 30/06..
Promoting the 308 as having some advantages over the ‘06 is because it followed the longer .30, and, because of it. It was developed as you know to “approach” early ‘06 ballistics in a shorter case. Tech advancement builds on the former entity.
Again, the practical difference for the hunter (not the military) is almost nil. Which is the number of Dutch girls who wear size 8’s.
You lucky readers! After years and years of infield research I now know the ultimate cartridge for deer/sheep/pronghorn size critters! Additionally I have carefully assembled from my field notes all the facts you need know about ballistic coefficients, bullet weight, velocity required at sensible hunting ranges (let’s put max at about 400 yds.). So here you have the ultimate numbers: B.C. .390-.453 Bullet weight 115-120 grain Velocity 3000 FPS What those numbers make you yawn? They don’t approach many of today’s modern cartridges.
The 257 Roberts!
Back to the .257 Roberts. I'd like add the 100 NPT BC of .377 at (+/- abit) 3200 fps from a 26" Ruger No1, PBR on a 6" target, 0-307yds.
This 100NPT was caught on the off side shoulder just under the skin. 187yds quartering away from left to right, retained 64.1g. Pretty much DRT. Whitetail.
So is the 30/06 or the .257 Roberts the ultimate round? Both are great, both are proven, they have gentle shoulders and good long case necks. Brass stands up for many handloads. Both have a sense of tradition about them. What else do you need from a bottleneck round? Serious hunters will acknowledge their effectiveness. Like they say you can B.S. the fans but you won't B.S. the players, or anyone that has used these two fine rounds.
When it comes to hunting and killing power all that matters is what bullet is it, where does it hit, and at what speed. Those are the things that matter---not the headstamp.
When it comes to hunting and killing power all that matters is what bullet is it, where does it hit, and at what speed. Those are the things that matter---not the headstamp.
100% agreed... there are a lot of roads to the same destination.
.270: 6.8 SPC .270 Winchester .270 WSM .270 Wby. Magnum
7mm: 7mm-08 7x57 .280 Remington .280 Rem. Ackley Improved 7mm Remington SAUM 7mm Remington Magnum 7mm Weatherby Magnum 7mm STW
.30: .30-30 WCF .300 Savage .308 Winchester .30-06 .300 WSM .300 Winchester Magnum .300 Weatherby Magnum
.33: .338 Winchester Magnum
.35: .35 Remington .358 Winchester
9.3mm: 9.3 Barsness-Sisk (wildcat) 9,3x62 Mauser
.375 H&H
.416 Rigby
.45-70 Springfield
Obviously I have used more than a few to compare "field performance." Have take animals from pronghorns to big bull elk with the .300 WSM, but if I were going to choose one of the newer rounds as an all-around big game cartridge would go with the 7mm Remington SAUM instead of the .300 WSM. Used it for several years to take big game from whitetails and pigs in South Texas to caribou in northern Quebec, and it does the same basic things as the .300 WSM--but with higher-BC bullets in approximately the same weight.
But eventually moved on to" testing" other rounds, whether ancient or 21st-century cutting edge, because that's part of my job.
I believe that 30-06 is the #1 for taking big game period. I do not know about .257 Bob, I shoot 25-06 which is about equal. I love 25-06 and have taken many varmints and deer with it. To each his own. Use what makes you happy. I only use premium bullets when reloading. It is a package deal for me. Good Shooting
That is an enviable record of experience Mule Deer. We might as well concede to the dismal record of such an old albatross of a cartridge. Why the 30-06 has feebly held on for so long is the great mystery of the world. It is a complete and utter failure.
But then again, it is pretty unanimous on this thread that llama bob is a complete idiot and blow hard troll. I think I’ll keep on using the -06 as the mood strikes me.
The B-29 proved to be such a super-effective, magical round (perhaps even better than the .300 WSM!) that the U.S. military decided to declare it top-secret, the reason it never became a commercial round...
I understand! When I get in a .30-06 mood just can't help myself. The last occasion occurred in November 2020, when the antique round killed a mule deer at 327 yards, with a 175-grain LRX at 2830 fps. The very first test-load, using IMR4451, put three into 1/2", and the eventual average was somewhat better--and that from one of those notoriously inaccurate New Ultra Light Arms rifles. But the NULA isn't one of those "too heavy" .30-06s mentioned elsewhere in this thread, weighing seven pounds exactly with scope, 5 rounds and sling. It's really tough to carry around....
Yeah, have had a few, including an 1893 Marlin rebored from .30.30, one of the Model 94s USRAC put together maybe 15 years ago, and a Chiappa "Li'l Sharps"--which despite weighing less than 6 pounds shot very well. But never shot any game with them.
The closest I came was with reduced loads using the 220-grain Hornady flat-nose in a .375 H&H Ruger No. 1 at around 2000 fps. Amazingly, it killed stuff, despite not being a .300 WSM!
Jeeze that was a punish to read. For where I hunt chasing feral pigs off farmers land, the 30-06 would be superior to the 300wsm simply because I can put more in the magazine. Other than that I don’t have a horse in the race.
Yeah but you can't do that in a short action, and for real world applications and killing big game, that short action makes all the difference in the world.
It's almost as big a deal as the case taper and the shoulder angle. But not quite.
JMHO, except for the nostalgia factor, with modern powders and modern bullets, the 7mm-08 is the best general purpose hunting cartridge.
The 30-06 works just as well as it ever did, but there are better options for any application. The differences are small, though, so anyone who wants to cling to the 30-06 can easily do so with little downside.
Regarding the first post in this thread, the .257 Roberts is a great little round for closer range mule deer, white tails, etc. I'd love to have one in a Kimber Montana as just about the near-perfect light-weight, thin-skinned hunting rig.
Regardless, hunting is about having fun, so people should shoot what they want, even if the decision is driven by nostalgia. Personally, I think a Browning High Wall in 45-70 would be a super cool elk rifle. That hardly means it is the best cartridge, though.
Reloader 26 in my 28" PacNor barreled 30-06 is taking it to a whole different level.With modern powders,the 30-06 is better than ever.This cartridge never ceases to amaze me.
I been thinking about necking down a 12 ga brass shell to something in the .50 caliber range. Maybe around 850-900 gr of cast for the bullet. Think it would handle a griz?
It is worse at killing big game than many other cartridges. It requires a heavier rifle, has less range, reloads worse, and is inherently less accurate. And offers nothing in return of any value.
Worse as in how? I have used the 30-06 on all of the lower 48 game animals except grizzly and moose. I used it on more Elk than any other cartridge at short range and as far as 450 yards. I have also killed elk with 270, 7MM RM, 300 WM and 338 WM rifles. One of the elk killed with the 338 traveled farther than any shot with the others by far. I believe you are just another dumbass.
Just for fun I looked through my hunting notes and came up with the following list of animals taken with various .30-06s, plus Eileen's total. She used to use it quite a bit as her "big" cartridge when hunting stuff that might be a little out of the class of smaller cartridges, or when hunting in potential grizzly country:
Pronghorns Whitetails (in Montana etc. Mule deer Elk (have killed more with .30-06 than any other cartridge, including my biggest bull—which didn’t go as as those lung-shot with the .300 Winchester and Weatherby Magnums) Black bear Caribou (my longest shot and biggest bull) Red stag, both in Europe and New Zealand Numerous feral goats and pigs (both are considered among the toughest big game animals of their size) Springbok Bushbuck Kudu (my second-longest shot in Africa, 360 yards up a mountain, which dropped when hit doe to the 180 Nosler Partition breaking the downhill leg and then then spine)
Eileen: Bighorn sheep (hunting in grizzly country) Black bear Gemsbok Kudu Red hartebeest Blue wildebeest (These four African animals are considered among the tougher to bring down.)
Have also had around a dozen companions use the .30-06 when hunting in various places from Africa to Alaska, and none had any trouble killing a similar list of animals.
Wow wish I had gotten into gun writing! I have to change my everything in the lower 48 comment to say I never took a Bighorn sheep. Could not draw a tag. Looking back on it I could have done every bit of the hunting I have been blessed to do with that same 30-06. I am sure the only reason I have not is because of gun writers!
I been thinking about necking down a 12 ga brass shell to something in the .50 caliber range. Maybe around 850-900 gr of cast for the bullet. Think it would handle a griz?
Why neck it down? Go with 12 gauge brass and a rifled barrel.
Regarding the first post in this thread, the .257 Roberts is a great little round for closer range mule deer, white tails, etc. I'd love to have one in a Kimber Montana as just about the near-perfect light-weight, thin-skinned hunting rig.
Dunno what you consider "closer range mule deer, whitetails, etc." but have taken mule deer and whitetails beyond 300 yards with the .257, and both Eileen and I have taken numerous pronghorns from 350-450. In fact took my latest large-antlered pronghorn buck with a fast-twist .22-250 at 350 yards.
I been thinking about necking down a 12 ga brass shell to something in the .50 caliber range. Maybe around 850-900 gr of cast for the bullet. Think it would handle a griz?
Why neck it down? Go with 12 gauge brass and a rifled barrel.
I’m a certified loony, that’s why. And there are a lot of wankers out there with rifled 12 ga barrels.
Regarding the first post in this thread, the .257 Roberts is a great little round for closer range mule deer, white tails, etc. I'd love to have one in a Kimber Montana as just about the near-perfect light-weight, thin-skinned hunting rig.
Dunno what you consider "closer range mule deer, whitetails, etc." but have taken mule deer and whitetails beyond 300 yards with the .257, and both Eileen and I have taken numerous pronghorns from 350-450. In fact took my latest large-antlered pronghorn buck with a fast-twist .22-250 at 350 yards.
386yds on this one. .257 Roberts, factory Nosler 110 NAB. One, 110 NAB behind the shoulder, broke the off side leg. Stumbled forward and gave it up.
I been thinking about necking down a 12 ga brass shell to something in the .50 caliber range. Maybe around 850-900 gr of cast for the bullet. Think it would handle a griz?
Why neck it down? Go with 12 gauge brass and a rifled barrel.
I’m a certified loony, that’s why. And there are a lot of wankers out there with rifled 12 ga barrels.
I think you’re onto something. Watch out Gunner will be calling up soon and ordering reamers.
I been thinking about necking down a 12 ga brass shell to something in the .50 caliber range. Maybe around 850-900 gr of cast for the bullet. Think it would handle a griz?
I think the ultimate cartridge is what was passed down from previous generations. If you didn't come from a family that hunted or used firearms, that puts you in a very important position. You will provide family heirlooms for future generations.
Either way, you are part of a great legacy. A custodian of your family's possessions. ---
Joe Grinder's Heirlooms
Joe Grinder was a quiet man, Who spent a lot of time at the range. He was a hunter, A father, And a Gulf War vet, Who didn't deal too well with change.
It wasn't because he was older, If sixty could make you that way. He just wished folks would mind their own business, Like he did, himself, every day.
"Stop livin' in the past, old man! It's time for a new Creedmoor gun! It's like your frozen in time, And you've fallen behind, Your 30-06 is all done!"
Joe smiled when those fools started speaking, And recited in their uppity way, The mistakes Joe was making, And how to improve, As if Joe was the one who had strayed.
But he never paid much attention. He just sipped from an old coffee cup. And pondered on all of his targets, And if he could tighten them up.
But then came that morning, one Tuesday, When a young fellow they called Jimmy Jay, Saw Joe in his chair, And decided right there, To reward him with counsel that day.
For twenty minutes, Jimmy Jay jabbered. For twenty minutes, Joe's interest swayed. But Jimmy kept talking, And Joe kept on thinking, 'I'll ignore him, and he'll go away.'
Then the range clock struck the half hour, And young Jimmy asked of old Joe, If he'd learned anything of importance, From the story that young Jimmy had told.
Joe sat silent, considering his options, Now it was his time to speak, And tell off foolish, young Jimmy, And rebuff his silly critique.
"I only shoot four guns, you see, 'Cause that's all that I'll ever need, And in the forty odd years that I've used them, They have never failed to succeed."
"The first gun I got was dad's old 44, That he got from his dad, at ten. It's been in the family for one hundred years, Passed down from past Grinder men."
"The next two, I got from my uncles. And neither came back from the war. The hippies protested them going, But I was proud of their time in the Corps."
"This last was from my lovely wife, Sarah, When I returned from my war in Iraq. It was a 30-06 from her daddy, Who used it, himself, some time back."
"These things are constant reminders. They're heirlooms that fed us, And symbols of service, But to me, they are much more that that."
"They remind me of family, Now long gone in my past. The youth of my father. My granddad's great vigor. And fun teenage times, When the world was less angry, And before my innocence passed."
"So go buy your new Creedmoor rifle. You need to create your own merit. When you're done, Pass it down, And remember my words, It's a memory your children inherit."
With that, Jimmy Jay started speaking, But Joe shook his head to say no. The young man looked confused and frustrated, Then waved and said he must go.
And Joe took a sip of his coffee, He leaned back and let out a sigh. He thought for a moment, Then started to laugh, Jimmy Jay was too young to know why!
He just didn't get it. Youth got in the way. But he'll realize it, In time. That old heirlooms remain bright and shiny, When fads are all covered in grime.
I used this ultimate cartridge almost exclusively for a decade, from 2007-2016. I'm a loony at heart and like to use lots of different rifles but during that time work, including a few years overseas, restricted both my rifle work and hunting opportunities, so I kept it simple when the hunts occurred. Rifle is a Rem 722 made in May of 1951, with a Leupold 4X Compact (which I think JB has written is actually about 3.3 power in the Compact version). The original stock had been cut short so I found a M700 SA beechwood takeoff on eBay and fit and bedded it to the M722, and added a pad to restore the LOP. Shots ranged from around 180 to 380 yards and I never lost a critter. I was shooting the 100 TSX for all of those years but recently laid in a supply of those stubby ogive 115gr partitions from SPS that are just perfect for this rifle and shoot even better. If I hunt it in the future that's what I'll use, for sure. Recently acquired a couple hundred Nosler +P cases as well so this rifle is now ready for another lifetime of hunting. And yes - that IS my lucky shirt. And my lucky hat. Cheers, Rex
Thanks, I just looked back and saw I left out a young Coues Deer buck and a coyote. Here they are. I saw the coyote out at several hundred yards while antelope hunting, and hunkered down and used a blade of grass between my thumbs to call him in. But when he came in he came in 90 degrees right of where I expected, and very close. I couldn't move enough to shift my body without being busted so I slid the rifle to my left side and shot him left handed and "left eyed." Never did that before or since. Rex
Used to have a Remington 700 chambered in 22-250 with a 1:8 twist. It loved 80gr A Max. I never had a chance at a short any longer than 125 yards. Most white tails dropped in their tracks. The ones that didn’t were all does.
Thanks, I just looked back and saw I left out a young Coues Deer buck and a coyote. Here they are. I saw the coyote out at several hundred yards while antelope hunting, and hunkered down and used a blade of grass between my thumbs to call him in. But when he came in he came in 90 degrees right of where I expected, and very close. I couldn't move enough to shift my body without being busted so I slid the rifle to my left side and shot him left handed and "left eyed." Never did that before or since. Rex
I could be wrong, but it also looks like you hunt that one area quite a bit. Looks like the very same mountain in the background in five or six pics, so if I'm right you got yerself quite a honeyhole.
Thanks, I just looked back and saw I left out a young Coues Deer buck and a coyote. Here they are. I saw the coyote out at several hundred yards while antelope hunting, and hunkered down and used a blade of grass between my thumbs to call him in. But when he came in he came in 90 degrees right of where I expected, and very close. I couldn't move enough to shift my body without being busted so I slid the rifle to my left side and shot him left handed and "left eyed." Never did that before or since. Rex
I could be wrong, but it also looks like you hunt that one area quite a bit. Looks like the very same mountain in the background in five or six pics, so if I'm right you got yerself quite a honeyhole.
And BTW...you're using .257 Roberts, right?
Yes Sir on the .257. I reckon I thought that was implied since it was the subject of the thread. I should have clarified. All those critters except the Coues Deer were on the same ranch in MT. We call that hill with the cliffs in the background in most of the pics "The Buffalo Jump." Back before the Indians had horses, they would stampede the bison over cliffs like that. You can still find old bones and teeth at it's base. It is rolling prairie above that cliff. It's a tradition to try to get the Buffalo Jump in the background for all the pics. I have been hunting there almost every year for almost 30 years. Used the .257 mostly from 2007-2016. Sometimes I just left it there so I could get there and back easier. It was a busy time and I didn't do much other hunting during that decade.
Well, since retiring I have a lot more time for rifle loonyism. I got me a 6.5 Manbun this year - figured I'd see what all the fuss was about.
Originally Posted by jwall
"Yes Sir on the .257. I reckon I thought that was implied since it was the subject of the thread. I should have clarified."
Well, umm, err.... the 270 W would have killed em deader.
joking sir. Thanks for the piX and congrats.
Jerry
Well, since retiring I have a lot more time for Rifle Loonyism. I even got me one of those 6.5 Manbuns this year - figured I'd give it a try and see what all the fuss was about. I think it might be almost as good as the .257 Roberts! This was last week - the newest rifle's first kill: Since my last hunt with the Roberts in 2016 I have been blessed to also hunt successfully with the .358 Win, .338-06, 35 Whelen AI, .270 WSM, 6.5x55, .308 Win, .243 Win, .25-06, and 30-30. And there are more in line waiting their turn. But I could have just used the old .257 Roberts about as well. It's a mighty fine round.
I think the ultimate cartridge is what was passed down from previous generations. If you didn't come from a family that hunted or used firearms, that puts you in a very important position. You will provide family heirlooms for future generations.
Either way, you are part of a great legacy. A custodian of your family's possessions. ---
Joe Grinder's Heirlooms
Joe Grinder was a quiet man, Who spent a lot of time at the range. He was a hunter, A father, And a Gulf War vet, Who didn't deal too well with change.
It wasn't because he was older, If sixty could make you that way. He just wished folks would mind their own business, Like he did, himself, every day.
"Stop livin' in the past, old man! It's time for a new Creedmoor gun! It's like your frozen in time, And you've fallen behind, Your 30-06 is all done!"
Joe smiled when those fools started speaking, And recited in their uppity way, The mistakes Joe was making, And how to improve, As if Joe was the one who had strayed.
But he never paid much attention. He just sipped from an old coffee cup. And pondered on all of his targets, And if he could tighten them up.
But then came that morning, one Tuesday, When a young fellow they called Jimmy Jay, Saw Joe in his chair, And decided right there, To reward him with counsel that day.
For twenty minutes, Jimmy Jay jabbered. For twenty minutes, Joe's interest swayed. But Jimmy kept talking, And Joe kept on thinking, 'I'll ignore him, and he'll go away.'
Then the range clock struck the half hour, And young Jimmy asked of old Joe, If he'd learned anything of importance, From the story that young Jimmy had told.
Joe sat silent, considering his options, Now it was his time to speak, And tell off foolish, young Jimmy, And rebuff his silly critique.
"I only shoot four guns, you see, 'Cause that's all that I'll ever need, And in the forty odd years that I've used them, They have never failed to succeed."
"The first gun I got was dad's old 44, That he got from his dad, at ten. It's been in the family for one hundred years, Passed down from past Grinder men."
"The next two, I got from my uncles. And neither came back from the war. The hippies protested them going, But I was proud of their time in the Corps."
"This last was from my lovely wife, Sarah, When I returned from my war in Iraq. It was a 30-06 from her daddy, Who used it, himself, some time back."
"These things are constant reminders. They're heirlooms that fed us, And symbols of service, But to me, they are much more that that."
"They remind me of family, Now long gone in my past. The youth of my father. My granddad's great vigor. And fun teenage times, When the world was less angry, And before my innocence passed."
"So go buy your new Creedmoor rifle. You need to create your own merit. When you're done, Pass it down, And remember my words, It's a memory your children inherit."
With that, Jimmy Jay started speaking, But Joe shook his head to say no. The young man looked confused and frustrated, Then waved and said he must go.
And Joe took a sip of his coffee, He leaned back and let out a sigh. He thought for a moment, Then started to laugh, Jimmy Jay was too young to know why!
He just didn't get it. Youth got in the way. But he'll realize it, In time. That old heirlooms remain bright and shiny, When fads are all covered in grime.
I think the ultimate cartridge is what was passed down from previous generations. If you didn't come from a family that hunted or used firearms, that puts you in a very important position. You will provide family heirlooms for future generations.
Either way, you are part of a great legacy. A custodian of your family's possessions. ---
Joe Grinder's Heirlooms
Joe Grinder was a quiet man, Who spent a lot of time at the range. He was a hunter, A father, And a Gulf War vet, Who didn't deal too well with change.
It wasn't because he was older, If sixty could make you that way. He just wished folks would mind their own business, Like he did, himself, every day.
"Stop livin' in the past, old man! It's time for a new Creedmoor gun! It's like your frozen in time, And you've fallen behind, Your 30-06 is all done!"
Joe smiled when those fools started speaking, And recited in their uppity way, The mistakes Joe was making, And how to improve, As if Joe was the one who had strayed.
But he never paid much attention. He just sipped from an old coffee cup. And pondered on all of his targets, And if he could tighten them up.
But then came that morning, one Tuesday, When a young fellow they called Jimmy Jay, Saw Joe in his chair, And decided right there, To reward him with counsel that day.
For twenty minutes, Jimmy Jay jabbered. For twenty minutes, Joe's interest swayed. But Jimmy kept talking, And Joe kept on thinking, 'I'll ignore him, and he'll go away.'
Then the range clock struck the half hour, And young Jimmy asked of old Joe, If he'd learned anything of importance, From the story that young Jimmy had told.
Joe sat silent, considering his options, Now it was his time to speak, And tell off foolish, young Jimmy, And rebuff his silly critique.
"I only shoot four guns, you see, 'Cause that's all that I'll ever need, And in the forty odd years that I've used them, They have never failed to succeed."
"The first gun I got was dad's old 44, That he got from his dad, at ten. It's been in the family for one hundred years, Passed down from past Grinder men."
"The next two, I got from my uncles. And neither came back from the war. The hippies protested them going, But I was proud of their time in the Corps."
"This last was from my lovely wife, Sarah, When I returned from my war in Iraq. It was a 30-06 from her daddy, Who used it, himself, some time back."
"These things are constant reminders. They're heirlooms that fed us, And symbols of service, But to me, they are much more that that."
"They remind me of family, Now long gone in my past. The youth of my father. My granddad's great vigor. And fun teenage times, When the world was less angry, And before my innocence passed."
"So go buy your new Creedmoor rifle. You need to create your own merit. When you're done, Pass it down, And remember my words, It's a memory your children inherit."
With that, Jimmy Jay started speaking, But Joe shook his head to say no. The young man looked confused and frustrated, Then waved and said he must go.
And Joe took a sip of his coffee, He leaned back and let out a sigh. He thought for a moment, Then started to laugh, Jimmy Jay was too young to know why!
He just didn't get it. Youth got in the way. But he'll realize it, In time. That old heirlooms remain bright and shiny, When fads are all covered in grime.
I'm late to the party but saw some earlier mention and discussion of the 300 WSM in comparison to .30-06, and the common claim of superiority based on higher velocity "lighter" short action, etc. etc. I don't think I've ever seen an action for the WSM line of cartridges that came in lighter than a long/standard action intended for the .30-06 family. You'd have to work hard to make an action lighter than Melviin Forbes has done in his NULAs and yet his model 24 (24oz) is intended for the .30-06 family and his model 28 (28oz) action is intended for the WSM family, etc.
Where does this notion of a lighter action for WSM cartridges come from and why has it never been put to rest?
I love how when the fangirls are presented with indisputable facts, namely that the .300WSM offers purely superior performance to the .30-06 in a smaller lighter package due to superior cartridge design, they have to come up with something to salve their butthurt. So they trot out Melvin Forbes, maker of $4000 garbage rifles that don't hold zero in field positions. He's got so many pissed off customers he's on failed venture 3 (or is it 4?). My understanding is that he can't even use his own name on his rifles anymore as it was sold off in a bankruptcy auction. So now it's new new ultralight craprifles or whatever
Yup, Melvin is the perfect foil for you girls. Send him your money, get garbage in return, and pretend you didn't get screwed
So please share your data (facts) with us, how much is the “substantial” difference in the weight of the actions ? It must be about the same as the weight of the steel contained in 2” of barrel, or about 1/4” of action
Remember - the the process of losing that weight you also get a purely superior round - faster, more accurate, reloads better. Just flat out better AND lighter. Plus you get to cut almost 1/2" off the barrel to have the same effective barrel length.
The WSM is just the better design round. It's a fact. That's hard for the fangirls to take (hence all the butthurt) but that's the way it is.
Remember - the the process of losing that weight you also get a purely superior round - faster, more accurate, reloads better. Just flat out better AND lighter. Plus you get to cut almost 1/2" off the barrel to have the same effective barrel length.
The WSM is just the better design round. It's a fact. That's hard for the fangirls to take (hence all the butthurt) but that's the way it is.
Now that’s one for the “You Gotta Be [bleep] Me, Private Pyle” file.
I prefer the design of the .30-06 to the WSM. The '06 feeds much better due to the more sloping and narrower shoulder, it holds the ideal amount of powder without having excessive recoil or muzzle blast, you can fit 4 or 5 in the magazine as opposed to 3, no need to have a canoe floor-plate that adds weight and sticks out etc if you want to get a decent magazine capacity of 4, no problem of long heavy bullets seating too far down into the case because you are using a short action, no rebated rim to cause feeding problems, you can just neck-size most of the time instead of having to bump the shoulder back each time like on some of the WSM cases. On a .30-06, you want a bit of weight, so any slight weight saving if you were to use a short action WSM is irrelevant. I'd rather face a grizzly with a rifle full of 180 grain .30-06 cartridges than with a rifle holding a few 180 grain WSM cases that don't feed as well.
The 30-06 is better than the 300 WSM for the reasons Riflehunter made!
The 300 magnums I like are the H&H, the Win Mag and the Weatherby. I have no desire to have a WSM. If I were to have one, it would be in the Ruger#1 and the detractions of the cartridge would be minimized. But even in the #1, the WSM would be a poorer choice than many other chamberings.
If I had to go with only one center fire for the rest of my life for game (not Prairie dogs), I'd be satisfied with the 30-06.
I love how when the fangirls are presented with indisputable facts, namely that the .300WSM offers purely superior performance to the .30-06 in a smaller lighter package due to superior cartridge design, they have to come up with something to salve their butthurt. So they trot out Melvin Forbes, maker of $4000 garbage rifles that don't hold zero in field positions. He's got so many pissed off customers he's on failed venture 3 (or is it 4?). My understanding is that he can't even use his own name on his rifles anymore as it was sold off in a bankruptcy auction. So now it's new new ultralight craprifles or whatever
Yup, Melvin is the perfect foil for you girls. Send him your money, get garbage in return, and pretend you didn't get screwed
What does "don't hold zero in field positions" mean?
Your post just demonstrated that you know nothing about either the history of Ultra Light Arms or the rifles themselves. Have you actually ever even seen one? Is the rest of your vast rifle knowledge as confused as this?
JB understand your post and why. Just to remind you though that lb ain't muddy girl he is more like swine and when you wrestle with pigs they like it, but you still get covered with their mud and sh*t just put the dumbass on ignore like all the other attention whores. Mb
Yeah, I know that! But sometimes I can't help myself.
I don't put anybody on ignore, partly because somebody else often quotes their stupid posts anyway in another post. But I am usually pretty good about ignoring them the old-fashioned way....
I love how when the fangirls are presented with indisputable facts, namely that the .300WSM offers purely superior performance to the .30-06 in a smaller lighter package due to superior cartridge design, they have to come up with something to salve their butthurt. So they trot out Melvin Forbes, maker of $4000 garbage rifles that don't hold zero in field positions. He's got so many pissed off customers he's on failed venture 3 (or is it 4?). My understanding is that he can't even use his own name on his rifles anymore as it was sold off in a bankruptcy auction. So now it's new new ultralight craprifles or whatever
Yup, Melvin is the perfect foil for you girls. Send him your money, get garbage in return, and pretend you didn't get screwed
What does "don't hold zero in field positions" mean?
Your post just demonstrated that you know nothing about either the history of Ultra Light Arms or the rifles themselves. Have you actually ever even seen one? Is the rest of your vast rifle knowledge as confused as this?
Oh I know all about his history of failed ventures, name changes, unhappy customers, and play-you-for-a-sucker pricing. It's amazing how every one of his rifles in a magazine is wonderful, but no accuracy results are provided and 3rd party reviews are consistently that he makes inaccurate garbage that doesn't hold its zero in field positions. Now I wonder how that could happen
adjective characterized by or holding idiosyncratic beliefs or impressions that are contradicted by reality or rational argument, typically as a symptom of mental disorder. "hospitalization for schizophrenia and delusional paranoia" based on or having faulty judgment; mistaken. "their delusional belief in the project's merits never wavers"
I doubt he seriously believes all that nonsense. I think that unlike normal people who get enjoyment out of learning things or contributing their knowledge for others, he gets enjoyment out of annoying normal decent people. That's how he gets his kicks.
Melvin Forbes it to rifles what John Hennessey is to performance cars - he charges twice what he should, delivers half what he should, and is continually having to turn the business over to get a fresh start because he screwed his old customers. That's why every few years it's a new corporate entity with a new equity stake. And like John Hennessey, there are plenty of magazine whores more than willing to ignore this well known history and pretend that his next venture will deliver exactly what you want.
Performance aside I just don’t like the look of the .300 WSM cartridge and I do like how the 30-06 looks. I use the .30-30 more than anything so optimizing cartridge performance isn't really a concern for me
How 'bout that .257 Roberts!? Pretty good cartridge, eh?
Strange you’d mention that!!!
My gun dealer, cousin, has quite a fine collection of rifles worth much much more than what I own or could possibly afford. He shoots a 721 Remington chambered for 257 Roberts. Shoots 100 grain spbt’s for all his game bigger than prairie dogs.
My dad’s favorite rifle was a Mauser 98 barreled/chambered in 257 Roberts. He liked Remingtons a lot, but he reached for that Mauser when deer season came around.
I had a 257 Roberts on a Mauser action. I sold it and now have a Remington Classic in 257. It’s unfired and I have qualms about shooting it. I have a nice 25-06 Classic and an early beat up 25-06 ADL which shoots so well I usually grab it when time to shoot a .25 caliber. The bluing is maybe 40%, if lucky, and the stock should be refinished.
I love the 257 Roberts, in fact I'm considering it for my next NULA build. I've heard so many great things about short actions and it seems it'll fit in Melvin's model 20.
I'd have to add at least 8 ounces to my rifle if I wanted a 300wsm.
I love the 257 Roberts, in fact I'm considering it for my next NULA build. I've heard so many great things about short actions and it seems it'll fit in Melvin's model 20.
I'd have to add at least 8 ounces to my rifle if I wanted a 300wsm.
Performance aside I just don’t like the look of the .300 WSM cartridge and I do like how the 30-06 looks.
At least we have one honest guy. The .300 WSM stomps the .30-06 as a cartridge. If you don't like its looks and want to shoot the inferior cartridge because it looks super special to you, well, that's a personal problem
So if the 30-06 is so lame does that mean we need to trash the 30-30; 300 Savage; 303 British; 308 Winchester, etc??? Oh, almost forgot, let’s get rid of the 300 Weatherby. The action is way too long and heavy and that’s not even taking into account all of the valuable barrel space it takes up….
I’ve got to quit reading this thread….. I laugh so hard my side hurts…. My 30-06 reloading components are going on sale… I’ll keep the 308, it’s stubby like the 300 Wimpy Shorty magnummmm.
With everyone's favourite bullet, a Barnes 165 TSX (another debate perhaps?), the 7.62x54r pushes it to about the same velocity, but with less powder. Over 3000 fps with a 150. You do not know the power of the dark side!
Performance aside I just don’t like the look of the .300 WSM cartridge and I do like how the 30-06 looks.
At least we have one honest guy. The .300 WSM stomps the .30-06 as a cartridge. If you don't like its looks and want to shoot the inferior cartridge because it looks super special to you, well, that's a personal problem
What am I going to do with all that extra performance in the Woods? 100 yards is a long shot for me. If I have to go 150 I feel like some kind of sniper or something
[quote=Llama_Bob] What am I going to do with all that extra performance in the Woods? 100 yards is a long shot for me. If I have to go 150 I feel like some kind of sniper or something
Eastern hunting is an unconstrained problem - shooting dog-sized deer at living room distances. Use whatever the hell you like.
Cartridge performance always has has and always will be driven by the western hunter.
[quote=Llama_Bob] What am I going to do with all that extra performance in the Woods? 100 yards is a long shot for me. If I have to go 150 I feel like some kind of sniper or something
Eastern hunting is an unconstrained problem - shooting dog-sized deer at living room distances. Use whatever the hell you like.
Cartridge performance always has has and always will be driven by the western hunter.
How do western bow hunters make those gosh darned 600 yard shots? Don't tell me there's a 300wsm equivalent for the bowhunter and none of us have known about it until now.
[quote=Llama_Bob] What am I going to do with all that extra performance in the Woods? 100 yards is a long shot for me. If I have to go 150 I feel like some kind of sniper or something
Eastern hunting is an unconstrained problem - shooting dog-sized deer at living room distances. Use whatever the hell you like.
Cartridge performance always has has and always will be driven by the western hunter.
You just proved you know nothing about the size of deer in the northeast
[quote=Llama_Bob] What am I going to do with all that extra performance in the Woods? 100 yards is a long shot for me. If I have to go 150 I feel like some kind of sniper or something
Eastern hunting is an unconstrained problem - shooting dog-sized deer at living room distances. Use whatever the hell you like.
Cartridge performance always has has and always will be driven by the western hunter.
How do western bow hunters make those gosh darned 600 yard shots? Don't tell me there's a 300wsm equivalent for the bowhunter and none of us have known about it until now.
There's no way he has a clue about bowhunting. Dude doesn't sound like he has a prayer of getting within 300 yards of a game animal much less 30
[quote=Llama_Bob] What am I going to do with all that extra performance in the Woods? 100 yards is a long shot for me. If I have to go 150 I feel like some kind of sniper or something
Eastern hunting is an unconstrained problem - shooting dog-sized deer at living room distances. Use whatever the hell you like.
Cartridge performance always has has and always will be driven by the western hunter.
How do western bow hunters make those gosh darned 600 yard shots? Don't tell me there's a 300wsm equivalent for the bowhunter and none of us have known about it until now.
There's no way he has a clue about bowhunting. Dude doesn't sound like he has a prayer of getting within 300 yards of a game animal much less 30
I thought maybe he didn't realize game can be taken at short range in the west if the hunter is of that mind.
[quote=Llama_Bob] What am I going to do with all that extra performance in the Woods? 100 yards is a long shot for me. If I have to go 150 I feel like some kind of sniper or something
Eastern hunting is an unconstrained problem - shooting dog-sized deer at living room distances. Use whatever the hell you like.
Cartridge performance always has has and always will be driven by the western hunter.
How do western bow hunters make those gosh darned 600 yard shots? Don't tell me there's a 300wsm equivalent for the bowhunter and none of us have known about it until now.
There's no way he has a clue about bowhunting. Dude doesn't sound like he has a prayer of getting within 300 yards of a game animal much less 30
I thought maybe he didn't realize game can be taken at short range in the west if the hunter is of that mind.
Well the hunter also has to be of that ability. I think LB needs everything that magnum has to offer
How do western bow hunters make those gosh darned 600 yard shots? Don't tell me there's a 300wsm equivalent for the bowhunter and none of us have known about it until now.
See, this is the sort of moron comment that makes this board so entertaining. You do realize that a bow huner calling during the rut has a completely different situation than a rifle hunter overlooking hundreds of yards of terrain that, at least on public land, may very well contain 0 to 1 elk?
Actually, what with you being a moron I bet you don't realize that
How do western bow hunters make those gosh darned 600 yard shots? Don't tell me there's a 300wsm equivalent for the bowhunter and none of us have known about it until now
Wind. Wind is always blowing and carries the arrow well. The trick is to get into shooting position before they smell ya.
They don't have dialing pins yet so this is where instinctive shooting really comes into play.............
[quote=Llama_Bob] What am I going to do with all that extra performance in the Woods? 100 yards is a long shot for me. If I have to go 150 I feel like some kind of sniper or something
Eastern hunting is an unconstrained problem - shooting dog-sized deer at living room distances. Use whatever the hell you like.
Cartridge performance always has has and always will be driven by the western hunter.
Looks like llama deuce knows just as much about eastern deer hunting as he does about rifles.....
I’ve always been of the belief that a guy who may only get a few days maybe in his lifetime to hunt elk or moose or whatever should use every advantage he can to have a successful hunt. The guy who lives out there and can hunt about anytime and knows the area has that distinct advance. My 300 wm does not put me at a disadvantage. Edk
I have never used the .257 Roberts but if it performs anything like the 25/06 , it is a keeper. I went through a period in the 80's that I put my 25/06 to regular use and killed bull elk and moose with it and it worked well with Nosler Partitions. If the .257 Roberts works like a slightly reduced 25/06 it would make a hunter quite happy. I carried the model 700 around alot then and on many sheep hunts, my only issue was the barrel length....24" is just to long in a repeater. Decades later, after trying most everything out there, I am back to the 30/06 and it's get. Medium cartridge length, tapering shoulder, long necked rounds fit the bill. Just need to see past all the marketing hype , the smoke and mirrors that the industry put out there. Cheers
I’ve always been of the belief that a guy who may only get a few days maybe in his lifetime to hunt elk or moose or whatever should use every advantage he can to have a successful hunt. The guy who lives out there and can hunt about anytime and knows the area has that distinct advance. My 300 wm does not put me at a disadvantage. Edk
Yup - when you take into consideration that western public land hunts have a success rate in the low single digit percent range in many states, if you want to be one of the lucky few you do everything you can. Say a bull elk steps out at 550 yards in a clearing across the valley. There are 10+ other hunters in the same valley - whoever shoots it first gets it. Now, sure, you can plan a 2 hour stalk over mountainous terrain to get to the location where one of your fellow hunters already shot it. Or if you have the right rifle, cartridge, and bullet you can shoot it and be the one eating backstrap that night. It's up to you which of those hunters you want to be. But if you want to be the one to ethically take that shot, the .30-06 is useless garbage.
I’ve always been of the belief that a guy who may only get a few days maybe in his lifetime to hunt elk or moose or whatever should use every advantage he can to have a successful hunt. The guy who lives out there and can hunt about anytime and knows the area has that distinct advance. My 300 wm does not put me at a disadvantage. Edk
Yup - when you take into consideration that western public land hunts have a success rate in the low single digit percent range in many states, if you want to be one of the lucky few you do everything you can. Say a bull elk steps out at 550 yards in a clearing across the valley. There are 10+ other hunters in the same valley - whoever shoots it first gets it. Now, sure, you can plan a 2 hour stalk over mountainous terrain to get to the location where one of your fellow hunters already shot it. Or if you have the right rifle, cartridge, and bullet you can shoot it and be the one eating backstrap that night. It's up to you which of those hunters you want to be. But if you want to be the one to ethically take that shot, the .30-06 is useless garbage.
The answer here is not the 300 WSM. The answer is, find a place to hunt where less than 10 hunters see the same bull and go after it.
The answer here is not the 300 WSM. The answer is, find a place to hunt where less than 10 hunters see the same bull and go after it.
Ahh, now you're talking - the .30-06 is the cartridge that makes you play thousands in trespass fees to do what others do for free
Additional reach, terminal capability, and rifle lightness are the keys to a good cartridge. That's obvious to anyone but a few stupid morons on this thread. The .30-06 is an abject failure at reach and lightness and a well below average cartridge.
LOL, wrong again bob. I've never had the privilege of hunting elk on private land or payed trespass fees. But I have hunted places where I didn't see anyone other than those in my party for days on end, much less had 10 people gunning for the same animal. Never heard of anyone else in that situation either. In fact, it's been my experience that in places where 10 different hunters could see the same animal and have a shot at it, the elk aren't there.
All it takes is getting a few miles from motorized access, and all that takes is two legs and a backpack. Or better yet, horses.
Since you live in Colorado, let's look at the unit where the most bulls are taken in 2nd Rifle - GMU 4 - 280,000 acres - 134,000 public acres - 1,635 hunters in 2nd Rifle (nearly all on public land)
Now that means if we spread the hunters perfectly evenly, each one would only be hunting 82 acres and they'd be about 620 yards apart on a grid. But the reality is they're much more concentrated than that because much of the terrain is inaccessible - too steep to stand on, deadfall etc. So in reality even if you spread the hunters out a much as possible, you'd have multiple hunters within rifle shot rage of you at all times. Similarly, any time an elk steps out there will be multiple hunters within rifle range. Now they may not have line of sight depending on terrain, but there ARE that many hunters in the woods.
Since you live in Colorado, let's look at the unit where the most bulls are taken in 2nd Rifle - GMU 4 - 280,000 acres - 134,000 public acres - 1,635 hunters in 2nd Rifle (nearly all on public land)
Now that means if we spread the hunters perfectly evenly, each one would only be hunting 82 acres and they'd be about 620 yards apart on a grid. But the reality is they're much more concentrated than that because much of the terrain is inaccessible - too steep to stand on, deadfall etc. So in reality even if you spread the hunters out a much as possible, you'd have multiple hunters within rifle shot rage of you at all times. Similarly, any time an elk steps out there will be multiple hunters within rifle range. Now they may not have line of sight depending on terrain, but there ARE that many hunters in the woods.
Is there 1,635 hunters per 134,000 public acres at every point in time that hunting is available on that unit?
Give or take, yes. Some of them pack it in before the season ends or get an elk and go home, but good luck hunting the back half of that season on public land.
I love how the facts here so clearly prove smokepole is a moron
What percentage of hunters are there the full season? What would be incorrect about an assumption that there would be more hunters near their vehicles rather than evenly spread throughout the unit?
[quote=Llama_Bob] What am I going to do with all that extra performance in the Woods? 100 yards is a long shot for me. If I have to go 150 I feel like some kind of sniper or something
Eastern hunting is an unconstrained problem - shooting dog-sized deer at living room distances. Use whatever the hell you like.
Cartridge performance always has has and always will be driven by the western hunter.
LOL, hey bob, ever heard of beanfield rifles? Kenny Jarrett?
Ever weighed a buck from soy bean/peanut country back east?
You're not bright enough to know what you don't know.
Being there the full season is irrelevant. Any elk are long gone to private land by the back half of the season. If your brilliant plan is to wait until all the elk too stupid to go private have been shot, and then do your hunting, well, good luck
The reason the hunters are evenly spread is that exactly 0 acres of the unit are wilderness area, and the entire place is honecombed with roads. Talking about being miles from the road is a laugher - There may be one place in the unit that you can get more than a mile from the nearest road (Baldy Peak area) and that's covered in easy to hike trails. Most of those are unofficial and probably aren't even posted no motorcycles.
If you can see the elk, 7 other people can too. Do you want to shoot the elk, or do you want to stalk to where someone better equipped than you shot it so you can admire their elk?
Being there the full season is not irrelevant, for the below calculations to be valid, all those 1,635 hunters must be there all of the available time, or alternatively, all hunters must be there at the same time:
Since you live in Colorado, let's look at the unit where the most bulls are taken in 2nd Rifle - GMU 4 - 280,000 acres - 134,000 public acres - 1,635 hunters in 2nd Rifle (nearly all on public land)
Now that means if we spread the hunters perfectly evenly, each one would only be hunting 82 acres and they'd be about 620 yards apart on a grid
Everyone hunts the start of the season. The back half of the season (it's 9 days) lots of people go home but it doesn't matter. Yes hunting pressure is lower those later days, but there's no elk on public land by that point so what rifle you choose for your armed hiking really doesn't matter.
The calculations are correct for the portion of the season in which public land elk are taken in any numbers.
Everyone hunts the start of the season. The back half of the season (it's 9 days) lots of people go home but it doesn't matter. Yes hunting pressure is lower those later days, but there's no elk on public land by that point so what rifle you choose for your armed hiking really doesn't matter.
The calculations are correct for the portion of the season in which public land elk are taken in any numbers.
It's an exercise in ant-f*cking, but since you're so proud of your calculations, no they're not correct. You eliminated all private land, which is more than half the land in the unit.
Everyone hunts the start of the season. The back half of the season (it's 9 days) lots of people go home but it doesn't matter. Yes hunting pressure is lower those later days, but there's no elk on public land by that point so what rifle you choose for your armed hiking really doesn't matter.
The calculations are correct for the portion of the season in which public land elk are taken in any numbers.
It's an exercise in ant-f*cking, but since you're so proud of your calculations, no they're not correct. You eliminated all private land, which is more than half the land in the unit.
But almost none of the hunters. The difference between a $57 OTC elk tag and a $1000+ trespass fee ensures that.
Roughly 7-8% of the hunters in that unit intentionally/legally hunt private land (literal trespassing is a separate issue). About 90% of them succeed. The remaining 90+% hunt public land, and usually slightly less than 5% of them succeed, because of the high hunter density already discussed. Those that do succeed do so because they got the elk down before all the other hunters around them saw it. That's why being able to shoot when you see the elk at whatever distance it may be is important. Stalking is effectively useless.
So yes, the calculations are correct. And you're still flat out stupid.
Non-resident hunters usually draw first rifle and especially first rifle PLO (3/4 of PLO tags in unit 4 are non-resident) . 2nd rifle is OTC and mostly resident, which is where the cost difference comes in. Also, I know you're all excited about private land, but I didn't include PLO tags, just general tags. While some of those are used on private land, it's very few. The difference in success rates between PLO and the rifle seasons tells you the hunters are not hunting private land.
To help you understand, 100% of those who attempt to draw unit 4 for private land get it. No out of state get 1st rifle public without 1 PP. So if you were going to hunt private land you'd be insane not the draw a PLO tag unless you believe there will be no animals on the land in 1st rifle or your're somehow constrained to a later hunt date.
I know you're going to keep up your clown dance though, which is the best part I'll keep being right, and you'll keep being stupid and on we go...
Eh. All these kids with their new-fangled cartridges. So what does that there 257 Ned do that the 250 Savage hasn't done all these years? Tell me that sonny!
Except that Bricktop usually commented on other stuff than big game cartridges--such as shipping guns. And he knew what he was talking about.
Just discovered that LB is 40 years old, which means he started posting his very firm opinions about the BEST stuff here when he was in his 30s. This doesn't necessarily mean he's inexperienced, but a lot of people think they have it all figured out when they're that age.
However, we still haven't seen any photos of all the elk LB has killed with his perfect caliber/bullet combinations. A couple years ago he was touting the 26 Nosler with 160-grain Woodleighs.
I love the notion of the .257 Bob. I had one, but none of the stores around carried ammo for it so I sold it on to someone who would give it more love than me. Never know what I missed as I never fired it.
Being more of a casual target shooter with limited time, the .308 Win is a better fit for me given availability of match grade ammo and components, barrel life and a pile of info available from the FTR shooters. I can share bulllets between the .308 and .30-06, and between them I think I could reload everything from small game loads with 30-30 bullets and Trail Boss, to 30-30 like loads with H4895, to bear loads with 220 grain partitions. A bit austere and minimalist I admit, but still versatile. My goal would be to develop second nature shooting skills with the Model 70 from all field positions.
I've also got .223 in a nice bolt action Kimber and a nice .375 H&H Model 70 (not sure why I love this cartridge - maybe because it's a big step up but still manageable), along with the ever-present rimfires. If hunting again, I doubt I would shoot at anything over 300 yards. I would try to sneak closer.
Whatever floats your boat cartridge wise. It's all fun, except maybe that .458 Lott. That hurt a bit and rattled me while it was at it.
Having a Model 70 Featherweight in both .30-06 and .308, I can tell you there is four-fifths of f***-all difference between those rifles size and weight wise. Four ounces and about half an inch.
Having a Model 70 Featherweight in both .30-06 and .308, I can tell you there is four-fifths of f***-all difference between those rifles size and weight wise.
I sure hope you have the calculations to back that up!
Having a Model 70 Featherweight in both .30-06 and .308, I can tell you there is four-fifths of f***-all difference between those rifles size and weight wise.
I sure hope you have the calculations to back that up!
The 7.62x39 is the same as a 300 Weatherby!
The 300 Weatherby doesn’t show any significant advantage over the 300 Winchester Mag. The 300 Super can get the same velocity as the 300 Winchester. The 30-06 AI can get the same identical velocity as the 300 Super. The AI has no advantage in velocity as the plain 30-06. The 308 Win was designed to get the same power as the 30-06 in a shorter case. The 308 Marlin was designed to have the same power as the 308. Anyone that shoots the 300 Savage will tell you they can easily get the same power out of it as the 308 Win also. If you AI the 30-30 you can get 300 Savage velocity. But already stated the AI has no advantage over the basic cartridge. The 7.62x39 is the identical twin of the 30-30.
Therefore, with out a doubt the 7.62x39 is the same as the 300 Weatherby!!!
To say nothing about the 300 Ultra Magnum, which only burns more powder than the Weatherby with absolutely no increase in velocity.
What, here I showed absolute positive proof that the 7.62x39 is identical to the 300 Weatherby in power. You have doubts??? (Here's the secret “it’s all about efficiency”)
At least you know that the rest of the proof is spot on. Just the 7.62x39 vs 30-30 is suspect, hmmm.
Having a Model 70 Featherweight in both .30-06 and .308, I can tell you there is four-fifths of f***-all difference between those rifles size and weight wise.
I sure hope you have the calculations to back that up!
The 7.62x39 is the same as a 300 Weatherby!
The 300 Weatherby doesn’t show any significant advantage over the 300 Winchester Mag. The 300 Super can get the same velocity as the 300 Winchester. The 30-06 AI can get the same identical velocity as the 300 Super. The AI has no advantage in velocity as the plain 30-06. The 308 Win was designed to get the same power as the 30-06 in a shorter case. The 308 Marlin was designed to have the same power as the 308. Anyone that shoots the 300 Savage will tell you they can easily get the same power out of it as the 308 Win also. If you AI the 30-30 you can get 300 Savage velocity. But already stated the AI has no advantage over the basic cartridge. The 7.62x39 is the identical twin of the 30-30.
Therefore, with out a doubt the 7.62x39 is the same as the 300 Weatherby!!!
To say nothing about the 300 Ultra Magnum, which only burns more powder than the Weatherby with absolutely no increase in velocity.
They're all only four fifths of a f*ck-all compared to the 300 WSM!!!
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