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Posted By: Bugger Mailing to FFL. - 08/11/22
Does the USPS require a copy of a FFL recipient in the box of a firearm when shipping to an FFL holder?
I’m pretty sure the local office doesn’t know one way or another. But they have told me that it’s required. Thanks.
Posted By: OlderGuy54 Re: Mailing to FFL. - 08/11/22
In a word, NO.
Posted By: Cheesy Re: Mailing to FFL. - 08/11/22
Originally Posted by OlderGuy54
In a word, NO.

Correct.

Ask the USPS brainiac where it says that in their rules and regs. Hold up the line behind you until they find it. They won't.
Posted By: OlderGuy54 Re: Mailing to FFL. - 08/11/22
Just as there is no requirement for an FFL to send a copy of their FFL to the person shipping.
Posted By: Bugger Re: Mailing to FFL. - 08/11/22
Thanks
Posted By: gnoahhh Re: Mailing to FFL. - 08/11/22
I include a Xerox'ed copy of the destination FFL in the box, mainly in case the shipping label is defaced there's a fighting chance (alright, slim chance) it'll end up getting there. I have an FFL (C&R, because I only mess with old stuff anymore) and am happy to receive electronic copies of destination FFL's and conversely prefer to send my copy electronically too.

One thing I do avoid doing is putting "gunshop" in the address, or anything that would trigger an idiot USPS clerk to get their panties twisted or a thief in the pipeline to help themselves.
Posted By: OlderGuy54 Re: Mailing to FFL. - 08/11/22
Originally Posted by gnoahhh
I include a Xerox'ed copy of the destination FFL in the box, mainly in case the shipping label is defaced there's a fighting chance (alright, slim chance) it'll end up getting there. I have an FFL (C&R, because I only mess with old stuff anymore) and am happy to receive electronic copies of destination FFL's and conversely prefer to send my copy electronically too.

One thing I do avoid doing is putting "gunshop" in the address, or anything that would trigger an idiot USPS clerk to get their panties twisted or a thief in the pipeline to help themselves.


That's a great way to not answer the OP's question about what isn't required.
Posted By: gnoahhh Re: Mailing to FFL. - 08/11/22
Alright. Whatever you say.
Posted By: Bugger Re: Mailing to FFL. - 08/11/22
I don’t understand why a FFL holder would object. Especially if the postal clerks say it has to be.
Posted By: River_Ridge Re: Mailing to FFL. - 08/11/22
Our local Post Office has a form that the FFL fills out and I hand to the clerk.
I think it's more of a policy than a law.
The last gun that I shipped was through Shipmygun.com via UPS. Much easier than the Post Office.
Posted By: OlderGuy54 Re: Mailing to FFL. - 08/11/22
Originally Posted by Bugger
I don’t understand why a FFL holder would object. Especially if the postal clerks say it has to be.

What? Object to sending a FFL to a non-FFL? No requirement.

Who cares WHAT a postal clerk says. Never take NO as an answer from someone that doesn't have the authority to say yes.
Posted By: OlderGuy54 Re: Mailing to FFL. - 08/11/22
If you mail a gun back to Ruger for warranty work, you plan on having Ruger send you a copy of their FFL?
Posted By: OlderGuy54 Re: Mailing to FFL. - 08/11/22
Originally Posted by gnoahhh
Alright. Whatever you say.


You are just doing a lot of stuff that there is no requirement for.
Posted By: Bugger Re: Mailing to FFL. - 08/11/22
Originally Posted by OlderGuy54
Originally Posted by Bugger
I don’t understand why a FFL holder would object. Especially if the postal clerks say it has to be.

What? Object to sending a FFL to a non-FFL? No requirement.

Who cares WHAT a postal clerk says. Never take NO as an answer from someone that doesn't have the authority to say yes.

And so the rifle doesn’t get shipped.
Posted By: OSU_Sig Re: Mailing to FFL. - 08/11/22
Originally Posted by OlderGuy54
Just as there is no requirement for an FFL to send a copy of their FFL to the person shipping.
I didn't realize this.
Posted By: Sitka deer Re: Mailing to FFL. - 08/11/22
Originally Posted by Bugger
I don’t understand why a FFL holder would object. Especially if the postal clerks say it has to be.
ATF tells us to NOT give FFLs to anybody without one of their own. We are to give the first 3 and last five digits of the license and instruct shippers to check on the EZCheck website.

Too many cases of fraud.

USPS specifically tells employees not to make legality judgements on guns. They are only allowed to ask specific questions on contents.
Posted By: Sitka deer Re: Mailing to FFL. - 08/11/22
Originally Posted by Bugger
Originally Posted by OlderGuy54
Originally Posted by Bugger
I don’t understand why a FFL holder would object. Especially if the postal clerks say it has to be.

What? Object to sending a FFL to a non-FFL? No requirement.

Who cares WHAT a postal clerk says. Never take NO as an answer from someone that doesn't have the authority to say yes.

And so the rifle doesn’t get shipped.
If an USPS clerk refuses a gun shipment here ( extremely rare) they get corrected very quickly when management gets involved.
Posted By: Bugger Re: Mailing to FFL. - 08/11/22
Originally Posted by Sitka deer
Originally Posted by Bugger
Originally Posted by OlderGuy54
Originally Posted by Bugger
I don’t understand why a FFL holder would object. Especially if the postal clerks say it has to be.

What? Object to sending a FFL to a non-FFL? No requirement.

Who cares WHAT a postal clerk says. Never take NO as an answer from someone that doesn't have the authority to say yes.

And so the rifle doesn’t get shipped.
If an USPS clerk refuses a gun shipment here ( extremely rare) they get corrected very quickly when management gets involved.

It’s the manager here that’s the worst.
Posted By: drover Re: Mailing to FFL. - 08/11/22
Originally Posted by gnoahhh
I include a Xerox'ed copy of the destination FFL in the box, mainly in case the shipping label is defaced there's a fighting chance (alright, slim chance) it'll end up getting there. I have an FFL (C&R, because I only mess with old stuff anymore) and am happy to receive electronic copies of destination FFL's and conversely prefer to send my copy electronically too.

One thing I do avoid doing is putting "gunshop" in the address, or anything that would trigger an idiot USPS clerk to get their panties twisted or a thief in the pipeline to help themselves.

That is more or less what I do for the same reason as you cite. I run the FFL numbers through the ATF EZcheck and put a copy of the EZcheck in with the firearm. It only takes a minute and it may prevent a lost firearm.

drover
Posted By: gnoahhh Re: Mailing to FFL. - 08/11/22
A word of caution re: the statement about ATF EZcheck. If you submit an FFL03 (C&R license) to somebody for an appropriate gun, and they run your license number through ATF EZcheck it'll bounce, and they'll tell the checker to decline the sale. It happened to me recently and the seller declined the sale. It turns out that EZcheck only applies to FFL01 licenses, and no amount of pointing that out to the seller persuaded him to reconsider.
Posted By: Sitka deer Re: Mailing to FFL. - 08/11/22
Originally Posted by Bugger
Originally Posted by Sitka deer
Originally Posted by Bugger
Originally Posted by OlderGuy54
Originally Posted by Bugger
I don’t understand why a FFL holder would object. Especially if the postal clerks say it has to be.

What? Object to sending a FFL to a non-FFL? No requirement.

Who cares WHAT a postal clerk says. Never take NO as an answer from someone that doesn't have the authority to say yes.

And so the rifle doesn’t get shipped.
If an USPS clerk refuses a gun shipment here ( extremely rare) they get corrected very quickly when management gets involved.

It’s the manager here that’s the worst.
Print out a copy of their regs and ask them to show you where it says that...
Posted By: Sitka deer Re: Mailing to FFL. - 08/11/22
Originally Posted by gnoahhh
A word of caution re: the statement about ATF EZcheck. If you submit an FFL03 (C&R license) to somebody for an appropriate gun, and they run your license number through ATF EZcheck it'll bounce, and they'll tell the checker to decline the sale. It happened to me recently and the seller declined the sale. It turns out that EZcheck only applies to FFL01 licenses, and no amount of pointing that out to the seller persuaded him to reconsider.
Good point I had forgotten.
Posted By: old_boots Re: Mailing to FFL. - 08/11/22
Originally Posted by OlderGuy54
Just as there is no requirement for an FFL to send a copy of their FFL to the person shipping.

So I ask, " How does the shipper know the receiver is actually an FFL holder "? Because he said so? Ha ha ha, I don't think so Tim...

You want me to ship to you? You send a signed copy (electronic is acceptable) to me. I then go to FFL E-Z CHECK web site punch in your info and verify your license is valid and address to ship to is correct. Otherwise no can do bud...

ob
Posted By: OlderGuy54 Re: Mailing to FFL. - 08/11/22
Originally Posted by old_boots
Originally Posted by OlderGuy54
Just as there is no requirement for an FFL to send a copy of their FFL to the person shipping.

So I ask, " How does the shipper know the receiver is actually an FFL holder "? Because he said so? Ha ha ha, I don't think so Tim...

You want me to ship to you? You send a signed copy (electronic is acceptable) to me. I then go to FFL E-Z CHECK web site punch in your info and verify your license is valid and address to ship to is correct. Otherwise no can do bud...

ob


I double dog dare you to show me the requirement. All they need do is provide those few numbers that you use in E-Z check and ship to that address.
Posted By: OlderGuy54 Re: Mailing to FFL. - 08/11/22
Originally Posted by Sitka deer
Originally Posted by Bugger
Originally Posted by OlderGuy54
Originally Posted by Bugger
I don’t understand why a FFL holder would object. Especially if the postal clerks say it has to be.

What? Object to sending a FFL to a non-FFL? No requirement.

Who cares WHAT a postal clerk says. Never take NO as an answer from someone that doesn't have the authority to say yes.

And so the rifle doesn’t get shipped.
If an USPS clerk refuses a gun shipment here ( extremely rare) they get corrected very quickly when management gets involved.


Keep making phone calls up the chain till you get to the right person. I had to do it, took 40 minutes on the phone but they called the PO and corrected the Postmaster.
Posted By: gnoahhh Re: Mailing to FFL. - 08/11/22
Originally Posted by old_boots
Originally Posted by OlderGuy54
Just as there is no requirement for an FFL to send a copy of their FFL to the person shipping.

So I ask, " How does the shipper know the receiver is actually an FFL holder "? Because he said so? Ha ha ha, I don't think so Tim...

You want me to ship to you? You send a signed copy (electronic is acceptable) to me. I then go to FFL E-Z CHECK web site punch in your info and verify your license is valid and address to ship to is correct. Otherwise no can do bud...

ob

So, what do you do in the case of a legitimate C&R-eligible gun that a legitimate C&R holder wishes to buy, and his FFL # bounces in the EZcheck (which it will)?
Posted By: OlderGuy54 Re: Mailing to FFL. - 08/11/22
Originally Posted by gnoahhh
Originally Posted by old_boots
Originally Posted by OlderGuy54
Just as there is no requirement for an FFL to send a copy of their FFL to the person shipping.

So I ask, " How does the shipper know the receiver is actually an FFL holder "? Because he said so? Ha ha ha, I don't think so Tim...

You want me to ship to you? You send a signed copy (electronic is acceptable) to me. I then go to FFL E-Z CHECK web site punch in your info and verify your license is valid and address to ship to is correct. Otherwise no can do bud...

ob

So, what do you do in the case of a legitimate C&R-eligible gun that a legitimate C&R holder wishes to buy, and his FFL # bounces in the EZcheck (which it will)?


Agreed, C&R is different.
Posted By: old_boots Re: Mailing to FFL. - 08/11/22
what I would do is call the regional ATF office and look for guidance. I've called regional offices a few times and Washington DC once...

I'm just not interested in breaking the law...
Posted By: old_boots Re: Mailing to FFL. - 08/11/22
Also,

To be C & R eligible the firearm has to be as it left the factory.
Posted By: gnoahhh Re: Mailing to FFL. - 08/11/22
Notice I used the term "legitimate" in my question.
Posted By: old_boots Re: Mailing to FFL. - 08/11/22
Yes sir, I did notice that. Many do not know of the "as it left the factory" criteria...
Posted By: Sitka deer Re: Mailing to FFL. - 08/11/22
Originally Posted by old_boots
what I would do is call the regional ATF office and look for guidance. I've called regional offices a few times and Washington DC once...

I'm just not interested in breaking the law...
They did not tell you to get a FFL copy before shipping... So why are you adding hoops to be jumped through?
Posted By: old_boots Re: Mailing to FFL. - 08/11/22
I don't considerate it a hoop, I considerate it my responsibility to know where the firearm is going. I think it a good idea to 1. know the rules, and 2. know to whom I am shipping a firearm. Otherwise how would / could you possibly know if the buyer was even legally able to possess a firearm? Because he said he was a good guy... C'mon, are you playing the devils advocate?

Years ago before electronic copies of a license were allowed an FFL holder had to send via US Mail a copy of his license to a distributor or business sending him a firearm. Now why do you suppose they had to do that? To comply with federal law perhaps...

You can handle the transaction however you like and I'll do it my way.
Posted By: Bugger Re: Mailing to FFL. - 08/11/22
"I'm from the government and I'm here to help you."
Posted By: AKwolverine Re: Mailing to FFL. - 08/11/22
Years ago you looked up a phone number in something called the phonebook, too.
Posted By: OlderGuy54 Re: Mailing to FFL. - 08/11/22
Originally Posted by old_boots
I don't considerate it a hoop, I considerate it my responsibility to know where the firearm is going. I think it a good idea to 1. know the rules, and 2. know to whom I am shipping a firearm. Otherwise how would / could you possibly know if the buyer was even legally able to possess a firearm? Because he said he was a good guy... C'mon, are you playing the devils advocate?

Years ago before electronic copies of a license were allowed an FFL holder had to send via US Mail a copy of his license to a distributor or business sending him a firearm. Now why do you suppose they had to do that? To comply with federal law perhaps...

You can handle the transaction however you like and I'll do it my way.


That's ok, a lot of people enjoy being wrong, it's a badge of honor for many.
Posted By: Raferman Re: Mailing to FFL. - 08/11/22
Originally Posted by OlderGuy54
Originally Posted by old_boots
I don't considerate it a hoop, I considerate it my responsibility to know where the firearm is going. I think it a good idea to 1. know the rules, and 2. know to whom I am shipping a firearm. Otherwise how would / could you possibly know if the buyer was even legally able to possess a firearm? Because he said he was a good guy... C'mon, are you playing the devils advocate?

Years ago before electronic copies of a license were allowed an FFL holder had to send via US Mail a copy of his license to a distributor or business sending him a firearm. Now why do you suppose they had to do that? To comply with federal law perhaps...

You can handle the transaction however you like and I'll do it my way.


That's ok, a lot of people enjoy being wrong, it's a badge of honor for many.
Be nice Scott.
Posted By: OlderGuy54 Re: Mailing to FFL. - 08/11/22
Originally Posted by Raferman
Originally Posted by OlderGuy54
Originally Posted by old_boots
I don't considerate it a hoop, I considerate it my responsibility to know where the firearm is going. I think it a good idea to 1. know the rules, and 2. know to whom I am shipping a firearm. Otherwise how would / could you possibly know if the buyer was even legally able to possess a firearm? Because he said he was a good guy... C'mon, are you playing the devils advocate?

Years ago before electronic copies of a license were allowed an FFL holder had to send via US Mail a copy of his license to a distributor or business sending him a firearm. Now why do you suppose they had to do that? To comply with federal law perhaps...

You can handle the transaction however you like and I'll do it my way.


That's ok, a lot of people enjoy being wrong, it's a badge of honor for many.
Be nice Scott.


Ok Brian
Posted By: Raferman Re: Mailing to FFL. - 08/11/22
Originally Posted by OlderGuy54
Originally Posted by Raferman
Originally Posted by OlderGuy54
Originally Posted by old_boots
I don't considerate it a hoop, I considerate it my responsibility to know where the firearm is going. I think it a good idea to 1. know the rules, and 2. know to whom I am shipping a firearm. Otherwise how would / could you possibly know if the buyer was even legally able to possess a firearm? Because he said he was a good guy... C'mon, are you playing the devils advocate?

Years ago before electronic copies of a license were allowed an FFL holder had to send via US Mail a copy of his license to a distributor or business sending him a firearm. Now why do you suppose they had to do that? To comply with federal law perhaps...

You can handle the transaction however you like and I'll do it my way.


That's ok, a lot of people enjoy being wrong, it's a badge of honor for many.
Be nice Scott.


Ok Brian
It's Dave.
Posted By: old_boots Re: Mailing to FFL. - 08/11/22
Dave ain't here...
Posted By: Cheesy Re: Mailing to FFL. - 08/11/22
Originally Posted by Bugger
Originally Posted by Sitka deer
Originally Posted by Bugger
Originally Posted by OlderGuy54
Originally Posted by Bugger
I don’t understand why a FFL holder would object. Especially if the postal clerks say it has to be.

What? Object to sending a FFL to a non-FFL? No requirement.

Who cares WHAT a postal clerk says. Never take NO as an answer from someone that doesn't have the authority to say yes.

And so the rifle doesn’t get shipped.
If an USPS clerk refuses a gun shipment here ( extremely rare) they get corrected very quickly when management gets involved.

It’s the manager here that’s the worst.

The manager has a boss.

I personally take satisfaction in proving somebody wrong that is arrogantly flipping their yaps. It’s one thing to be ignorant and open to correction. It’s another thing when they’re all superior and need knocked down a notch or two.
Posted By: UpThePole Re: Mailing to FFL. - 08/12/22
1. No USPS employee can ask you what is in the box.
2. No USPS employee can tell you what needs to be in the box.
3. All they can ask is the HAZMAT question.
4. Ask the idiot to show you the regs (you can printout and bring your own copy)
5. File a written complaint (registered mail) with the USPS IG and tell the employee you're going to.

How close is another post office ?

https://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c4_008.htm
Posted By: CharlieSisk Re: Mailing to FFL. - 08/12/22
I usually just throw this out there.....always get a nice response..
https://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c4_010.htm
Posted By: Huntz Re: Mailing to FFL. - 08/12/22
Originally Posted by gnoahhh
Originally Posted by old_boots
Originally Posted by OlderGuy54
Just as there is no requirement for an FFL to send a copy of their FFL to the person shipping.

So I ask, " How does the shipper know the receiver is actually an FFL holder "? Because he said so? Ha ha ha, I don't think so Tim...

You want me to ship to you? You send a signed copy (electronic is acceptable) to me. I then go to FFL E-Z CHECK web site punch in your info and verify your license is valid and address to ship to is correct. Otherwise no can do bud...

ob

So, what do you do in the case of a legitimate C&R-eligible gun that a legitimate C&R holder wishes to buy, and his FFL # bounces in the EZcheck (which it will)?
The BATF has never said you should not send a copy of your C&R FFL.I just write on it the serial number and make of the rifle I am selling or buying.I just ask for a copy of their DL to enter into my log.
Posted By: UpThePole Re: Mailing to FFL. - 08/12/22
This is all covered in detail one Gunbroker.com

https://support.gunbroker.com/hc/en-us/articles/222836508-Firearms-Shipping-Guide
Posted By: Bugger Re: Mailing to FFL. - 08/12/22
Originally Posted by UpThePole

Gunbroker demands the FFL to send a copy of the FFL paperwork...
Posted By: Sitka deer Re: Mailing to FFL. - 08/12/22
Originally Posted by old_boots
I don't considerate it a hoop, I considerate it my responsibility to know where the firearm is going. I think it a good idea to 1. know the rules, and 2. know to whom I am shipping a firearm. Otherwise how would / could you possibly know if the buyer was even legally able to possess a firearm? Because he said he was a good guy... C'mon, are you playing the devils advocate?

Years ago before electronic copies of a license were allowed an FFL holder had to send via US Mail a copy of his license to a distributor or business sending him a firearm. Now why do you suppose they had to do that? To comply with federal law perhaps...

You can handle the transaction however you like and I'll do it my way.
I have had a FFL for over 40 years... well before the electronic age... and you obviously do not know how to we did it then, nor how to do it right now.

There is ZERO requirement, right, nor reason for you to be able to do a background check on a potential gun purchaser. If you consider it your responsibility to know maybe you want to stick to family sales, and should absolutely not sell anything on the internet. No, not a Devil's Advocate at all, as a FFL I have a responsibility to do the background parts I am responsible for, properly.

Many years ago I did not need to put much information on the form, but there was a box for "IS KNOWN TO ME."

The requests for FFLs to not give out copies of FFLs is fairly new in the scheme.
Posted By: Sitka deer Re: Mailing to FFL. - 08/12/22
Originally Posted by Bugger
Originally Posted by UpThePole

Gunbroker demands the FFL to send a copy of the FFL paperwork...

Gunbroker does not make the laws, enforce the laws, nor order anyone to do something ATF wants them to not do. Gunbroker is flat wrong in that link, period.
Posted By: Sitka deer Re: Mailing to FFL. - 08/12/22
Originally Posted by Huntz
Originally Posted by gnoahhh
Originally Posted by old_boots
Originally Posted by OlderGuy54
Just as there is no requirement for an FFL to send a copy of their FFL to the person shipping.

So I ask, " How does the shipper know the receiver is actually an FFL holder "? Because he said so? Ha ha ha, I don't think so Tim...

You want me to ship to you? You send a signed copy (electronic is acceptable) to me. I then go to FFL E-Z CHECK web site punch in your info and verify your license is valid and address to ship to is correct. Otherwise no can do bud...

ob

So, what do you do in the case of a legitimate C&R-eligible gun that a legitimate C&R holder wishes to buy, and his FFL # bounces in the EZcheck (which it will)?
The BATF has never said you should not send a copy of your C&R FFL.I just write on it the serial number and make of the rifle I am selling or buying.I just ask for a copy of their DL to enter into my log.

So who has sent me all the emails, publications, and letters saying so? Sure looked official to me.
Posted By: Huntz Re: Mailing to FFL. - 08/13/22
Originally Posted by Sitka deer
Originally Posted by Huntz
Originally Posted by gnoahhh
Originally Posted by old_boots
Originally Posted by OlderGuy54
Just as there is no requirement for an FFL to send a copy of their FFL to the person shipping.

So I ask, " How does the shipper know the receiver is actually an FFL holder "? Because he said so? Ha ha ha, I don't think so Tim...

You want me to ship to you? You send a signed copy (electronic is acceptable) to me. I then go to FFL E-Z CHECK web site punch in your info and verify your license is valid and address to ship to is correct. Otherwise no can do bud...

ob

So, what do you do in the case of a legitimate C&R-eligible gun that a legitimate C&R holder wishes to buy, and his FFL # bounces in the EZcheck (which it will)?
The BATF has never said you should not send a copy of your C&R FFL.I just write on it the serial number and make of the rifle I am selling or buying.I just ask for a copy of their DL to enter into my log.

So who has sent me all the emails, publications, and letters saying so? Sure looked official to me.
Show us a copy of that.
Posted By: Sitka deer Re: Mailing to FFL. - 08/13/22
Originally Posted by Huntz
Originally Posted by Sitka deer
Originally Posted by Huntz
Originally Posted by gnoahhh
Originally Posted by old_boots
Originally Posted by OlderGuy54
Just as there is no requirement for an FFL to send a copy of their FFL to the person shipping.

So I ask, " How does the shipper know the receiver is actually an FFL holder "? Because he said so? Ha ha ha, I don't think so Tim...

You want me to ship to you? You send a signed copy (electronic is acceptable) to me. I then go to FFL E-Z CHECK web site punch in your info and verify your license is valid and address to ship to is correct. Otherwise no can do bud...

ob

So, what do you do in the case of a legitimate C&R-eligible gun that a legitimate C&R holder wishes to buy, and his FFL # bounces in the EZcheck (which it will)?
The BATF has never said you should not send a copy of your C&R FFL.I just write on it the serial number and make of the rifle I am selling or buying.I just ask for a copy of their DL to enter into my log.

So who has sent me all the emails, publications, and letters saying so? Sure looked official to me.
Show us a copy of that.
Next time I get one I will post the info.
Posted By: Mule Deer Re: Mailing to FFL. - 08/13/22
Gee, I've been gone 4 days on a trip, somewhere it wasn't convenient in several ways to post on the Campfire.

Come back and find this thread, and per usual several members who don't have FFLS, and haven't done much (if any) real research, tend to claim to be experts on the subject.
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