I was a fan of full-length sizing for most of 20 years. Then I got my first Lee Collet Die, and my groups started to improve. Now, I'm at a crossroads.

Setup:
Last year, I did up 150 rounds of 30-06, 50 rounds each for myself and my 2 sons. I used 1-fired Federal brass,150 grain Rem PSPCL, Remington 9 1/2 primers and H4895. The loads are pretty much the same loads that I've been doing for my sons since they were yutes. I decided to switch to 150 grain myself after shooting 165 grainers for 20 years-- I received a free lifetime supply from Hornady a while back, and decided this was a good way to use them up. All 150 rounds were loaded well under the MAX load. I annealed and did a full-length resize on all the brass before initial loading.

Moose, #2 son, has gone through 25 rounds, and I'm going to reload these empties for him. I've used neck sizing now for a few years on several chamberings. I've seen an overall improvement in groups and a distinct improvement in runout.

Question:
Should I use the Lee Collet Die to size these rounds? Why or why not?

My answer: I figure I can use the Collet Die for maybe 4-5 loads before I need to do a full-length size-- probably about the time I give them another annealing. However, this is the first time I've gone down this road.

They'll be fine if they go back into the rifle in which they were fired. Since you're loading well under max they shouldn't be ironed into the chamber enough for stiff bolt operation.

Make sure you run all the empty neck sized cases through the rifle before loading, cause s hit will happen.
Did all that when shooting HP. Never found the improvements you mentioned.

Good Luck.

That sounds like a waste of time. The reason I PFL size everything.. Accuracy/precision has never been an issue.. Keep schidt simple and thank me later..

In my experience, in particular with 30-06 cases, if they are kept annealed and just collet-sized, there hasn't been a need to bump shoulders back, and have never experienced problems with case stretch to the point that the bolt operation was hindered. Some of my brass has been fired a couple dozen times and annealed at least 6 times.

In general, because I prefer to just collet-size, if a round doesn't chamber easily, I know it's time to anneal.

But that's just how I do it. I avoid Federal rifle brass, except the military stuff, unless I'm loading cast bullets. Soft case heads and loose primer pockets directed me elsewhere.

As long as #2 son's brass will chamber and you aren't going to be swapping loads/rifles you should be fine. I have become a big fan of LCDs mostly because it eliminates the need for case lube and the less you work your brass, the longer it will last.

the better bench rest shooters now all full length resize . myself i now always full length resize these good bench rest shooters have proved it in some videos i have watched . years ago i thought too neck sizing was the way to go but it is not.

…. Umm…. Yes they full length size but using custom dies based off their chamber spec.

I make my own sizing dies for my BR rifle - but I make custom NECK Dies so i can control the neck size I’m using.

I've had issues getting the collect tight enough but once fixed no issues.

For years I partial full-lengthed, no issues.

Loaded hot 308s for years NS die only. (Reasons)
Took quite a few loadings until the shoulder got tight, bumped it back and
rolled on.


All loading for a particular gun.

i seen one benchrest shooter just use full length Redding die and a Redding seater and shoot the best groups of the weekend for 100 yards and 200 yards with his 6PPC at the State championship shoot and took most of the trophies that weekend too.

Eric Cortina has a video on just this topic. Worth a watch.

I don't give a flying crap what bench rest shooters do. THe LCD's make superbly accurate hunting ammo with minimal runout. I bump shoulders every 3-4 loadings, and Blacktailer pointed out the reasons I've been using them for years.

I only neck size, and don't ever FL size rifle brass any more. If you use the Lee Collet die and segregate brass according to the rifle it is fired in there should be no need. Brass needing to be FL sized to "bump the shoulder back" indicates an issue with the way you are sizing - it will come out of the chamber slightly smaller than the chamber, so if it won't go back in that is usually due to something you did in the reloading process.

The reasons I prefer neck sizing are not confined to accuracy. There's less working of the brass, and less likelihood of case head separations.

I have brass which has gone through literally dozens of loading cycles without ever being FL sized. It does get regular neck annealing. Case life appears to be limited by primer pockets not staying tight (not much of a problem if you don't try to load too hot), neck cracks from not neck annealing often enough, and losing cases in the field.

thanks for posting this video shows the real real truth ! ALWAYS FULL LENGTH SIZE YOUR BRASS Pete53

Dunno if you watched the video, or whatever, but the reason you noticed an improvement in accuracy with neck-sizing was NOT due to neck-sizing only. Instead it was due to the excellent job Lee Collet Dies do of keeping case-necks aligned with the rest of the case--whether it's FL sized or not. The Lee die does this despite variations in case-neck thickness.

But the reason "standard" full-length sizing often results in larger groups is NOT due to FL sizing itself, but the side-effects of using typical inexpensive FL dies--without checking whether the case necks (or seated bullets) are properly aligned with the case body.

(ahem!)

Let me let you in on a little secret.
"IF" you're reloading for a Ruger No.1, full length size all your brass.
Neck size twice and the case will no longer chamber.
"IF" you're reloading for "Handi-Rifle", same thing.
Si Gle shot rifles have notoriously tight chambers.

I also use "SB" dies for my AR calibers.

Which shows that there is often more than one way to skin a cat. Most shooters do not need the extreme accuracy that competitive shooters demand.

One reason that I use the equipment I do is because I am content shooting one inch groups for most things. I am also lazy. Lee Collet dies and either a FL die or a body die teamed with a feeler gauge works for me.

Everyone has different needs and expectations. There is no madness in diversity.

I have owned at least a couple dozen Ruger No. 1s, made from the 1970s to very recently, and have NOT found that to be universally true. Or even generally true.....

I've shot silhouettes for many years and reloaded many cases multiple times . I have definitely seen one just neck sizing you cannot read chamber the case after a couple times without a lot of force.. this might have something to do with loading near the top end or not don't really know. it may have something to do with the resizing die you are using for neck sizing.. using a full length dye and bumping by 002 for me has been the easiest way to roll.

The entire population of Planet 4MOA rises up in resounding approval.

Look, I can't really say for sure that neck sizing caused a major improvement. However, what I can say is that both my sons and myself are shooting tighter groups over 10 years ago, and even over 5 years ago. The more I concentrate on better this and that, the tighter groups get. I won't say I was embarrassed by what I was shooting 20 years ago, when I lived on Planet 4MOA, but no one else around me was shooting any better. You have to remember, this is a fanciful world where a couple of rounds at a milk jug at 50 yards was called "sighting in." This is the enchanted planet where a 30-30 regularly stretches out and knocks deer dead at 300 yards-- offhand, mind you!

Little by little, I'm leaving the legacy of that planet behind me.

if you watch the video and still feel neck sizing is a better way to reload your ammo > you need to re-watch and listen to this video again. there can be a pressure problem when you just neck size your brass and why would anyone wanna get hurt or ruin his rifle by getting extreme pressure from neck sizing ?

You can't be serious......there's this new contraption called a chronograph........

Something has to be misunderstood here. I can't watch the video now to see just what however.

😳😳😳😳😳😳😳😳

Surely you jest.



Most definitely.

Can someone explain why this thread has any value ?
Does anyone own a good reloading book ?
The solution to all sizing questions is there.
Just buy Redding or Forster dies.

If you don't own this book, buy it.

Here is the answer. I get almost 0 run out using these.Link below
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1010979613?pid=481804

If we're dealing with feelings here, I suggest sacrificing a couple chickens to whatever god of shooting you can make up, and then go from there. That's the best way to avoid "pressure problems" from neck-sized brass.

Simply buying Brand XXX dies is not a cure all.

Ahh but bushing dies can have their own possible issues, such as not sizing 20 thou of the necks and allowing donuts to form. Whether or not it’s an issue for you, it’s one that can happen.

Says the guy who can't even figure out how to dyna bore coat his own rifles..........yeah, let's listen to your advice.

Whether it's a hunting gun, an accuracy rig or anything in between.....seeing improvements with neck sizing (over full length sizing) is really pointing out issues with the full length die itself, press issues, die adjustment issues, shell holder issues, expander issues, etc.

You really can't say for sure unless you look at each step in the full length sizing operation. 90% of the problems I see are with die adjustment and expanders. It's pretty rare to actually have a 'bad die' issue if the die is from a quality manufacturer.

There's a few Lee dies here. Best paper weights ever.

Good shootin' -Al

Bushing dies also aren't the best if there's a lot of sizing to do. One example from my experience is sizing thin WW 308 brass fired in factory chambers. The die needs to take the necks down from something like .344" to .331" and in a bushing die that's not good for runout. A Lee collet die or a regular FL die w/o ball works much better.

I see it from the opposite perspective, Al. The Lee collet dies are a simple answer to a very complex set of difficulties. Are there "better" solutions? Yes, but how much better, and how much money and time do you have to throw at it to solve those difficulties otherwise?

Ya know I am a firm believer in Murphy’s law, “ If something can go wrong, it will.” Now if you’ve never had a run in with Murphy it’s only 2 options.
You have never ever done anything.
You have had your azz blessed by God and deemed the second coming of JC.

I am certain it’s option 1.

Very true. Likewise if the case necks show much wall variation.

Bushing dies are designed for use with necks that are within .001-.0015 variation. If the necks very much more than that, the bushing can induce about double the run out of the neck wall variation. By design, most generally available bushing dies don't size the entire length of the case neck...leaving the bottom 1/16" or so unsized to allow the case to better center itself in the chamber. Sometimes this helps, sometimes not.

My preference in hunting style stuff is a standard Redding full length die with a carbide expander ball fitted. At times, I've refitted them with an expander stem that puts the expander higher up so the case is better supported when the neck goes through the expander.

Addressing the expander, adding a rubber flat washer between the die lock ring and the top of the press, actually measuring how much the shoulder is being pushed back and using a quality shell holder (Redding) solves most issues. Each die set here has it's own shell holder in it and it stays with that die set.

Just got a half dozen Hornady shell holders and they are truly awful for straightness and consistent thickness.


Good shootin'. -Al

Did you notice the dies I recommended can be set to bump the shoulder?I use these dies for loading for AR-10`s and AR -15`s using Lake City brass no problem.Collet dies work fine till the case is needs to be FLR.I also use these dies for my 6MM CM and 6MM BR.As they work good for me. I just thought I would pass this info on.

And there is where we all have gotten into the weeds. There is a huge difference in the answer to which is "best" depending on the type of firearm you are loading for (bolt action, semi auto, single shot) and what the application is (BR, LR, hunting).
As someone said earlier, there is more than one way to skin that cat.

Yes.

However, I'm not sure how that aspect relates to my comment about bushing dies and reducing neck diameters significant amounts.

The Short Action Custom bushings have worked great in my Redding bushing dies in my .308. I am sizing from .344 to .335 in one step with .001 max TIR. That is the worst ones. The Redding bushings would not do that for me.

I did fine bushing sizing Lapua brass to .336", but still not as straight as my honed out Forster FL die does it.

I’d suspect it has far more to do with neck tension than runout.

This topic is fascinating with a wide range of views from huntnshoot claiming you can neck size forever without bumping the shoulder back and pete53 claiming you are a fool if you don't Full length size every time.....
I watched the video and was glad to see Lou Murdica on it, haven't shot with him in a year or two.
One thing most don't understand is that most competitors in any shooting discipline use custom actions and shoot hot loads above saami specs. I know from shooting benchrest that you have to full length size because you wouldn't get the case back in the chamber just neck sizing (not even using huntnshoot's methods).
On the other hand I have a few varmint rifles 222,223 and 204 that I use a Lee collet neck sizing die for several shots before setting the shoulder back, no absolutes one way or the other but common sense goes a long way

no matter the method if I was having run out issues the first thing I would do is Google up and study how to square a die..

I don't think you will feel satisfied until you do what you want. Your answer is the correct one. Everyone else is providing what works for them or what they believe is the best. But is it the best for you? You can read all these suggestions, but in the end, it comes down to what fits your situation.

Cheers.

Glad your honed Forster worked out. The one they did for me was a disaster with my Lapua brass, .335" is the max they would hone to for me.

There are certainly as many "correct" answers as there are answerers.

He has asked for opinions, but he has to come to his own correct answer.

good luck with Murphy`s law if you neck size or you use cheap dies !

If you want to find stuff out, you have to do other stuff. This video explains it nicely.

Good shootin' -Al

https://youtube.com/shorts/EYEDD2l0YUw?feature=share

Neck only.

Very good ! I think I'm about done f uckin' around.

I must have missed it, but where do the pressure problems come from when neck sizing instead of FL resizing?

I have dedicated brass for each rifle that I reload for, so the ammo, whether factory or handloaded, is never fired in a different chamber.

The No.1 I have won't accept neck sized cases.
I had a H&R Handi-Rifle that neck sized cases would stick.
Switched both rifles to FL dies. Never had another stuck case.
The No.1, you couldn't chamber a neck sized round.
The Handi would accept a neck sized round, but wouldn't extract the fired case...unless it had been FL resized.

I believe there's a misunderstanding or misinterpretation in this.

That's likely way over pete's pin sized head.

> maybe someday you will understand the correct way to reload ammo with full length resized brass ? with your negative comments feeling tuff behind a keyboard you won`t learn much >> but maybe try to be a little positive you might learn something ? if you want people`s respect act like a man, quit this boyish crap you look very foolish with your posts.

I've culled more big game animals with my reloads than you will in 10 lifetimes. Get a freaking clue.

.002/.003 bump and rock on

Same here.

I do have one AR that I use a Redding body die for the bump and a Lee Collet die for the neck, just for the heck of it, and it works fine. Now that I think about it, I also do a Redding body die / Redding bushing neck die on a tight necked 6 br. No real reason, but it works plenty good enough for me.

I used Lee collet dies for years, but now do the same as Ted.
Noticed to loss in accuracy. I use Redding or Forster does with a Co-Ax press. The problem with Lee.collet dies is that the cases become harder to chamber after a few firings. I prefer 100% functionality.

Lee collet for .243.
Never had problems but got maybe 5 reloads before primer pockets werent as snug as I like.
THAT makes me cull brass ( right or wrong ).

Just hunt, so not concerned w brass life.
Hell i scrapped all my old .243 as I couldnt tell on some how many loadings ( info lost on some boxes ).
Junked em and just started w new batch.

Norma and WW. See which ones start dropping out, in about 5 yrs LOL

Who pulls the expander ball when FLS and then uses the Lee collet die?

The LCD mandrel is not an expander.

Three different rifles, Three different size cases. What could possibly go wrong? A loaded round solidly stuck in a chamber is not a pretty situation.

I see no merit in that procedure.

Me either, but thought I'd ask.

i don`t need to brag about anything ,but if you need or anyone else needs help understanding loading ammo many of us will try to help . good luck,Pete53

I never paid any attention to how straight my rifle handloads were until about a year ago.
After reading posts on here and other researching, maybe a couple PM’s to JB too.
I went ahead and bought a Redding slant gauge. The only bottleneck rifles I load for now are a couple 223’s, couple 308’s, a 30-06, and a 338 win. And the only dies I had for them were RCBS and Hornady. After I received the concentricity gauge I started checking my loaded ammo. Let’s just say I was very surprised at how crooked some of it was, and I checked 100’s and 100’s of them. Some I wound up pulling.
So then I ordered all new Forster FL sizing and seating dies. (I really didn’t want to get into the bushing dies). The new Forster helped loading straight ammo tremendously. But some were still not to my liking. And that I blame on the brass I use, Winchester, Remington, and some Hornady.
I wound up making a tool to straighten the loaded ammo that wasn’t up to par, it worked good for the most part. Any ammo that doesn’t load straight I know is because of the varied brass thickness. JB recommend the RCBS concentricity gauge because it’ll check neck thickness too, but I didn’t listen. I do like the Redding slant gauge though, simple tool. And I have since bought a ball mic, any brass that doesn’t load straight it definitely caused by uneven brass thickness.
Now after reading this thread I went ahead and ordered sets of Lee collet dies. I’ll see how they work on uneven brass. If I had it to do over again I’d probably just buy nothing but Lapua brass. And who knows those RCBS and Hornady dies may have loaded straight ammo with Lapua brass.

Sometimes brass and dies don't work well together, even when both are good on their own. For example, the tightest necked 308 Winchester die in my collection is a Redding FL die. Used in the conventional manner it works very well with WW brass I have which has thin neck walls. It doesn't do as well with thicker brass like Lapua or Federal, even when my ball mic shows the necks to be good. Before anybody asks, yes I have the carbide expander ball and I do lube the inside of the case necks. For best results with thicker brass I need to remove the expander, size without it, install the tapered expander and push the necks over it in a separate operation. Even then the necks are being worked more than is necessary or ideal, though they are pretty straight.

many years ago a very dear friend made some very special concentric gauges for his ammo company he made 3 of them for worked and 1 extra and that went to me . i still use this tool and that taught me the difference in neck sizing and full length brass sizing . shooting competition at 100 - 200 yards also was a huge help , 600 FTR and 1,000 yds. winter money shoots all help , but the biggest help was Jonny Bell answering my questions about guns and reloading while we drove to go fishing or hunting over 20 some years and my Uncle Stan both engineers at Federal Cartridge and some other employees that worked there they all were a great help.

That's why you use a body die to bump shoulders when chambering gets tight. It's a very simple process.....neck size, bump shoulders as necessary. As mentioned before, I have rifle specific brass, and seldom need to bump shoulders at all.

This is excellent information right here!

Redding Body Dies are really versatile and give a lot of options. I've got some that have been converted to bushing dies and some that I've opened the neck area up to size to a specific diameter. They are great for necking down cases as they can get all the way to the neck/shoulder junction if need be.

Lots of ways to skin cats with dies...basic math and some thinkin' gets you most of the way there.

FWIW, this is a standard Redding 243AI full length die that I modified to take a bushing and size all the way to the neck/shoulder junction:









Redding Body Die....converted it to take a bushing to size to .060 ahead of the neck/shoulder junction:



Another bushing conversion....this started life as a Redding small base Body Die:

I feel so lame not having a machine shop of my own.

Yes, that certainly helps. But like most people, I got by for a long time just using what I had to work with and thinking things through.

But there's just no 'magic' in dies. The die mfgrs. have a to make a product that works to size almost anything with that specific chambering....not an enviable position to be in.

90% of the hunters and general reloaders will be well served with quality, off the shelf dies from a reputable manufacturer. Just taking some time and doing some homework before buying anything solves most problems before they start.

The chambers are the wildcard followed by the customers themselves. With so many basic misconceptions, poor setup/adjustments and the resistance of many, many reloaders to actually measure and find out what's going on....it's no wonder that there are 'problems'...either real or perceived. I'm amazed there aren't more issues that there are. Which in reality speaks to how a good a job most die mfgrs do with the dimensions of their products.

Good shootin' -Al

I understand. I have six FL dies for 308 and they all do something a little different.

True but I think it's closer to 99%.

For 2 of the cartridges I load for. Anneal as needed. Wash inside neck w/bore mop and PVC solvent to remove loose fouling, never more. Lee Collet for the neck, Redding bump for the body to achieve 0.0015-0.002 headspace. Trim necks to datum on shoulder so all necks same length. Uniform inside neck chamfer. That's how I do it to serve my needs.

Very likely. -Al

I've noticed this happening myself. ^

If you get less runout using a collet die, that means either your FL die is defective or your technique is wrong. Usually, it is a problem in the way which you set it up. There is absolutely no advantage to neck-sizing and many disadvantages.

your very right but some will not understand , many watched the video but some did not listen to what the one bench shooter said about his findings on pressure problems with neck sized brass that he himself tested in his indoor tunnel pressure testing. i learned this pressure problem with neck sizing brass 30 years ago from engineers and my uncle from Federal Cartridge ammo factory . my all time favorite cartridge dies to use and buy are Whidden bushing dies but these dies are expensive and work excellent , other wise i have many Redding dies ,some Wilson .lower grade dies like RCBS and the rest i really don`t care to use much anymore. neck sizing dies i would never use again you could ruin a favorite rifle or an eye ,finger ,hand or someone else`s health could be hurt and that`s just not with it to me .

Yessir. With threaded dies, a 50 cent rubber washer/'O' ring, a quality flat shell holder and a loosey-goosey sloppy press will fix a lot of problems. -Al

they might wanna also use bacon grease for their neck die brass lube too.

Proper set up and technique trumps all no matter what equipment you use.

Isn’t most runout caused by brass thickness being uneven?

A little experience involving 'set up' that happened last Summer:

A member was having case separations with his Howa Mini Oryx in 6.5 Grendel. He brings 10 cases over to show me....8 were cracked mid way down the case and the other 2 were paper thin with obvious thinning. He tells me that the chamber has "....too much headspace." and he's going to return it. I asked him how much he was pushing the shoulder back and he stammered around before finally saying "Two thousandths".

I had my comparator along since I was setting up dies so I knocked the primers out of the two cases that hadn't separated (yet) and checked them with the comparator. Both were identical.

He had some of his unfired reloads so I checked them next.

His reloads had the shoulders pushed back .022 from what the fired cases measured.

A little 'set up' issue...... -Al

Might also mention that Chapter 27 of "The Big Book of Gun Gack III,"[i][/i] "Rifle Die Design," discusses how various dies differ, how they can be adjusted (including some of the tricks noted here, such as using soft washers), and the advantages of some versus others.

Should also point out that this does NOT resolve the supposed conflict between neck and full-length sizing--but might help a few folks, especially if they already own the book but haven't read the chapter lately.

I tried to stay in the middle ground in my earlier post but this just proves some people just don't get it and it's a waste of time trying to explain

NO, many other factors involved

Yep! But uniform brass makes things easier...mostly by eliminating one variable.

True. Or a couple of variables.

After FL sizing for many years I tried neck sizing to see what advantages it might hold. I experienced problems I never encountered while FL sizing and did not see any improvement in accuracy. So I have returned to FL sizing, this is just my experience and may not be typical of what others experience.

Let me clean up a couple of things.

First off, I'm not going to stand on the Pillar of TrVth and pronounce that adding collet dies to the mix improved my groups. I believe they did, but I also know that I've done a bunch of other things over the past 10 years to improve groups and nothing was done in isolation. Something worked. My groups are better, and I have the astute gentlemen of this august forum to thank for giving me guidance.

Second, I've been reading about FL vs. Neck Sizing for decades. I FL'd for about 20 years before adding my first collet die, and it was based on advice from Herr Mule Deer. I still have my face. I suspect John still has his. Never in all my years of studying the subject, did I hear of anyone come straight out and say that if I neck-sized, I was going to blow up the gun. Were this the case, Lee and the other die makers would have been sued out of business long before I got into reloading.

Neck Sizing was discussed at length in the first book I ever had on reloading. It was the ABCs of Reloading. I had that book a good decade before I dove in. The book is written by C. Rodney James.



Yes, those are hooks. Mister James blew his hands off playing with explosives when he was 15. He finally got the message and turned towards the light. His book lit the way to my 20+ years of safe, fun reloading. I doubt Mister James would have included neck sizing if it were as dangerous as some declare.

Bottom line: If John says neck sizing is cool ( and safe) I'm going for it. Thank you all for the kind advice.

So true! It takes a lot of work to make bad brass shoot. Starting with quality brass (Lapua, etc.) is one of the best investments a hand loader can make.

As an example, I have a Browning B78 that's chambered for a wildcat called the 6MM Jet. Basically, it's a .065 short 243 AI that uses the rimmed 307W as the parent brass. Now, the best 307W brass ever made isn't exactly high quality, uniform stuff. It takes a lot of work to make it shoot and last. Culling losses prior to any work being done run close to 50%. But after inside boring the necks to make them round and straight, outside turning to make them perfect, some unconventional work on the primer pockets/flash holes, serious stress relieving prior to f-forming and very controlled sizing, they shoot well with good case life.

Would have been a lot easier to just reach in a box of Lapua 243 cases and go from there!

Brass is full length sized each firing. The 5 cases used for sighters and foulers have been fired over 20 times each with stout loads....primer pockets are still tight.

Good shootin'. -Al

307W (lt) f-formed 6MM Jet (c) standard 243 AI (rt)

Mule Deer , give us a truthful answer please = do you prefer to full length resize brass or neck size brass for hunting big game animals ? thank you , Pete53

I would like to hear more about this, please. What unconventional work on the primer pockets and flash holes did you do? What is "stress relieving" of brass prior to fire forming?

Also, what culling process did you go through prior to any of this work that gave you a 50 percent cull rate?

Thanks.

Truthful. That’s rich coming from you:

My brass is always appointed to a specific rifle. I do not mix brass or use in multiple rifles. For factory rifles I neck size and shoot them until the get a little snug. I want the brass to fit the chamber. They are then run through a body die to bump the shoulder and annealed at that point. I have one rifle that is a wildcat (25 BR AI) that has a custom die for it. See no need to work brass unnecessarily.
I use only Forster and Redding dies for all of my factory chamberings.

GreggH

Good topic and one thst gets beaten to death. My range friends (1 K) shooters said they FL size each and every time. Said they want the brass to be sitting in the chamber the same way. Funny, because I NK size till I can't and can shoot almost as well (without a custom rifle). I do see their point though.

give it up and try to be a little more positive

This is what I do.

I have multiple bins that identify rifle and number of firings. When I run out of, for example, Red Death 3x I process all the brass in the Red Death 4x bin.




P

Yeah, I generally FL size for big game rifles--but even if I don't, every case/round gets run through the chamber/rifle before I go hunting.

Use neck-sized or partial-sized cases a lot for high volume varmint shooting.

I’m not the bald-faced liar here, Paragraph Pete.

Al, I need someone to convert a SB body die to a bushing die. How hard is it to do that conversion?

oh the rifle is ordered , so does that mean when my 6.5 Creedmoor Fieldcraft rifle gets here you need a picture or wanna buy it ? to be more truthful your posts are very foolish grow up and try to be positive , you make people in the great state of Wisconsin sound dumb with your posts. what are you the little class clown ?

thank you for your comment .i do the same with my big game brass i full length resize or use new brass and check every loaded case rather it has been resized or new brass.
Pete53

I do both! If I have a measured headspace over 2 thou with my brass I never PFLS because I don't need or want a shoulder bump. Once measured headspace is tighter than 2 thou I will bump to maintain 2 thou headspace. Sometimes I fire new brass as many as 3 times before I will bump. Some people seem to believe that there is some vast reason to PFLS other than maintaining headspace which also maintains seating depth distance to the lands. Most reloaders are not in the proper seating depth node to begin with so may or may not reap any reward by PFLS every time



Trystan

Why would anyone PFLS other than to maintain headspace? Maintaining headspace is maintaining consistency? Isn't that the goal?

My 35Rem is an odd one. I've not been able to set my FLS die because the fired cases never need it. Nothing but neck sizing at the moment even after 10 firings (9 reloads). I normally set my FLS die for minimal FL sizing but the cases have never been a tight fit to warrant it. Mild loads I guess. The cases still do stretch of course but it's negligable.

I've necked sized for all of my bolt rifles for years. I only full length size if getting a bit hard to chamber. But some of my brass has been necked sized six or seven times and it's still OK to chamber. My 280 brass has all been neck sized and I don't think I have ever used the FL die in 24 years. I do full length my 7x57, 303B and 9.3x62 cases as they are chambered in my Number 1s.

So much easier to dip the case necks in graphite powder and neck size than apply case lube, size and then wipe it off.

Ditto… Every case I load gets checked in the rifle for chambering before loading and after loading regardless of whether neck sized or FL sized. All my belted magnums for hunting are new cases also checked for chambering before pack up!

Many, many factors contribute to runout. With varying neck thickness, you cannot eliminate ALL runout. Additionally, you may find runout in different places so it is sometimes important to consider if there is runout where the cartridge fits the chamber, or runout where the bullet lies in relation to the cartridge itself. For instance, a cartridge fired from a given chamber should have next to zero runout in the neck taken from the outside circumference of the neck. Once it is sized, there will be runout due to neck thickness variation. Your technique may affect this greatly. Are you using an expander ball? How do you lubricate? Are you using a bushing or a fixed die?

For instance, using a floating bushing may induce slightly more than a fixed die because of tolerance stacking. In my experience it will amount to around 0.001" added after sizing if I am not using an expander ball. However, neck thickness variation is being pushed INWARD such that it will affect the bullet when seating. This may result in actually bullet runout of 0.003". What matters more, a bullet completely centered and straight to the case and chamber or a neck perfectly centering in the chamber? If I run that same piece of sized brass through a pin gauge or expander die, I may change that neck to runout to 0.003" but TIR taken at the ogive may be 0.002".

Which is more advantageous for precision? Well, it depends. Do you have a tight neck chamber? How much clearance does your neck have? Where are you in that case's life? Have you reached the point where the doughnut has expanded and it contacts the chamber's neck at the last portion of the neck that remains un-sized? Where is the shoulder of your case relative to the chamber? If it varies with every shot, how does that affect the seating node of the bullet?

In my experience (which my understanding of is evolving all the time), I've won a few PRS and F-Class matches, it is most advantageous to control as many variables at one time as you can. That means first, using good quality brass. Second, that means you want to do the same thing every single time. If you do those things, runout, within reason, has a minor effect on the rifle's performance. Typically, I don't even bother checking runout on a squared-away setup because even 0.005" TIR won't hurt performance when everything is done right, though its typically a little less than that.

My typical competition loading process is to use Lapua or Alpha brass and to anneal before any sizing takes place and do so every single time. The first firing or two, typically brass still expands and bumping the shoulder back probably isn't helpful but its totally possible that some random cases will expand to do so so the notion of not FL sizing cannot be ignored on a large batch of 100--there may be a few in there that will have difficulty chambering. Sometimes it isn't a bad idea to take a piece of brass and fire it two, even three times until you learn your chamber dimensions to determine how far shoulders should be set back before you do a batch of once-fired brass. Figure out that dimension and use that number with your comparator set. Shoot for 0.002-0.003" of set back. I do use a bushing without an expander ball, because I don't use custom sizing dies and I do not turn necks. For sizing lube, I will use Imperial and only lube the body and outside neck of the brass, I keep it off the shoulder. Following sizing, I use Neo Lube #2 inside the necks for lubrication and run through a separate mandrel die as to not affect concentricity or shoulder set-back as an expander ball being pulled back through the case may. Afterward, I trim, chamfur, and deburr all in one step with a motorized trimmer. These steps are quick, easy, and they produce the same dimension every single time. Consistency adds more for me than constantly varying brass and headspace dimension could ever do; especially considering the drawbacks of neck-only sizing as mentioned in previous posts.

Drop point , yes i bet you never have trouble with your brass and i can see you understand how to build accurate safe ammo , but some of these reloaders just are not going to change their ways . never have used Neo Lube #2 but that sounds like a good ideal , i have always brush the inside of the neck ,i may need to get some of that type of lube. good post,Pete53

Thank you, pete, yes I am quite pleased with Neo Lube #2 if you ever get an urge to try it. Only downside is a bottle is over $20, but it will last a long time.

Drop Point, how are you applying the Neo Lube? I just got a bottle after seeing the results of using it on a video but I haven’t used any yet.

Drop point , is Neolube #2 applied every time ? or applied only once in a while ? i watched video on how to apply already and am going to order some i see a advantage using Neolube . thank you ,Pete53

Neo Lube comes with a brush attached to the cap, so I'll turn the cap upside-down and take a cotton swab and dab it into the brush. Just ran that swab inside the case neck two or three quick turns. It will evaporate and leave a film behind. Its impossible to over or under apply it. I do it just before using the expander mandrel. It also makes seating smooth as butter with very consistent pressures. It does need to be done each time. I originally started wet-tumbling and noticed seating pressures were increased and all over the place. Then I switched to graphite powder in ceramic beads but it was inconsistent. I heard about Neo Lube from Keith on Winning in the Wind, and it really seemed to be the ticket.

Thanks DP, I heard about the Neo Lube on the Bolt Action Reloading YouTube channel. He found it helped with uniform seating pressure, and found it to improve load ES, SD, and accuracy as well.

No problem at all.

drop point , thank you much i will order Neolude #2 , i always thought i had a problem with the inside of a case neck and this should solve the problem. thanks again, Pete53

Now ask him how many varmint rifles he's blown up due to high pressure neck sizing.

On inner case necks, they should never be squeaky clean. Certain tumbling methods and cleaners are particularly bad in that respect.

On fired cases, the powder residue left in the case neck is all they need for seating. If you feel like you have to do something, a quick pass with a nylon brush and you're done.

For lubing the inner necks for sizing when using an expander... lots of stuff works well. You want to reduce the friction as much as possible so the expander doesn't pull the neck out of alignment with case as it passes up through the neck and expands it.

With a standard F.L or N.S. die, the best approach is to not excessively reduce the neck diameter in the first place.

Good shootin' -Al

Al, earlier I had some questions about your post on the 6mm jet brass you made. It may have got lost in the shuffle. If you don't mind:


Thanks!

not sure ? but i thought there was mention he liked and used a 17 Hornet or something similar, so if that`s true i think that case takes 12 grs. of powder , you might wanna think about that a little ????????

drop point , i have now ordered some Neolube #2 after i have watched a couple of videos on how to use Neolube #2 ,i will see a approvement in my handloading using this Neolube #2 . thanks again ,Pete53

You ordered last night, received shipment and have used it in reloading operations this morning?

You rent an apartment next door to a UPS Hub?

I believe he meant "foresee an improvement".

Al, that's been my experience as well.


Some more general comments on this thread:
Have found that bullet run-out matters far more in some circumstances than others. In my 6mm PPC benchrest rifle I've found run-out of more than .001 results in 5-shot groups at 100-200 yards doubling in diameter, but that's with bullets with flat bases (or very minimal boattails), which tend to result in more consistent gas blow-by at the muzzle than "full boattail" bullets--which is of course why short-range bench shooters tend to use flat-based bullets.

Boattails tend to de-stabilize slightly at the muzzle due to powder gas blasting along the rear half of the bullet. But at ranges longer than about 250-300 yards, boattails tend to group better, despite often not tending to group as well at 100-200 yards, because they resist wind-drift better--which is also why bullet run-out isn't as critical at longer ranges. (The effects of wind on group size also grow larger, one reason many hunters think bullets tend to de-stabilize at longer as their velocity drops--when bullets actually become more stable, unless of course they approach subsonic velocities.)

When I acquired my first bullet-runout gauge over 30 years ago, an RCBS Casemaster, the directions suggested that .005 bullet run-out got about as much accuracy as possible out of typical big game rifles, and .003 in varmint rifles. I found this to be generally true, but also depends on the quality of the rifle, brass, bullets, loading techniques--and of course the shooter.

>>> i guess i forgot a word ? > i " will " see an improvement in my hand loading using Neolube #2. > thanks for pointing out my very small mistake i feel so much better now !

>drop point you can see how some on the campfire are critical and foolish , so don`t forget a word ,cross a t ,dot an eye > some of these little boys are always trying to make themselves feel superior by being critical , but the campfire does have some very good people on here too. thanks again,Pete53

I agree. What is the rifle/shooter "system" able to resolve? The same question applies to thrown vs weighed charges.

The first step was checking the necks for thickness variation. Close to 50% showed in excess of .002 with half of those being closer to .003. My normal cutoff is .0015 but I relaxed a bit on these cases as I knew I'd be touching up the necks with the neck turner.

When deburring the flash holes and lightly chamfering the flash hole from the inside, it became apparent that my chamfering tool (it uses an internal collar inside the case neck to pilot it) was only touching about half of the floor of the case. Long story short...the floor of these cases was 'tipped', for lack of a better term. My solution to that was to open the necks with a .338 expander and with the cases in a holder in the mill vise, I went in with a .312 end mill and squared up the 'floor' of the cases. The worse case took .016 to clean it completely so that's what I cut all of them to.

To neck them down to 6, they first went through a 308W seating die, then through a succession of Redding Body Dies: 308W, 7-08, 260 Rem and 243W. I knew what the chamber neck length was from doing a CerroSafe cast and verified the end of the neck wasn't going to 'stack up' against the end of the neck area of the chamber, so I pushed the shoulders back with a standard 243W full length die (that I had shortened .075 based on the chamber cast). I just used a single case at that point and kept pushing the shoulder back in .005 increments until the action would j-u-s-t close with a skosh of resistance and set the die to that point.

They all then went through the shortened 243W full length die, the cases were trimmed to the same length, the necks were expanded over a .241 expander and the inside of the necks were cut with a .242 reamer to make them round and straight. Then they were neck turned with the .241 expander, neck/shoulder area was stress relieved at 450 for 15 seconds, washed in acetone, left to dry. Finally, they were full length sized again with a shortened 243W Type 'S' F.L. Bushing Die.

They were ready to rock at that point. After firing them all the first time to f-form them, the primer pockets were then uniformed.

Target was the first 3 shot group @ 100 yds. when fire forming. The shot at 11:30 is the fouler. I gave the scope two down and two right shot the little three shot 'weather report' .420 group....it actually measures quite a bit bigger than it looks. It shows a 9:00 pick up I missed on the flags. With f-formed cases, 5 shot groups at 100 are well under 1/2". Pretty decent for a falling block rifle with an oddball case, I think.

Hope this helps. -Al

You read things into what you heard, but were never said. The shooter (Lou Murdica, was it?) only said that pressure differences show up when firing neck-sized only brass. Obviously, this would be because of gradual case volume increases with each firing if the case volume is not controlled precisely. He did NOT say you'll experience dangerous pressure. He is saying that if you keep the shoulder in one single place, consistency improves.

I have watched that video a number of times and listened carefully. I think that Cortina means "neck sizing only" is not the way to go. He emphasizes bumping the shoulder back two or three thousandths each time is important. I think he would agree that using a body die to bump the shoulder and then sizing the neck in another step is essentially FL sizing...just not all in one die in one single step.

I'd be very, very surprised if any of those guys are using any off-the-shelf FL die set, and I mean the run of the mill RCBS, Lyman, Hornady, or even Redding or Forster (wouldn't be the first time I was surprised, though). I've never spoken to Cortina so I don't know, but I'll bet he's using a die set custom made and paid a lot more than $100 for them.

you would be surprised how many good bench shooters use a Redding bushing full length sizing die.

I'd be surprised if you really knew a damned thing about it. I've read your posts.

Wow, that was a lot of work. Thanks for the details.

common on up this winter let`s see how well you can shoot against me ? so bring it on or is it all keyboard mouth ? my old rifle is ready. and yes you will be surprised . so bring your neck sized brass up against my full length sized brass. > you were right about one thing his name is Lou Murdica .

You got me shakin in mah boots, yes indeed.

I wouldn't drive around the block to prove anything to you any more than I'd seek out your "expertise" in these fora. No one who knows jackshidt would.

As a competitor in 100-300 sanctioned tournaments (NBRSA and IBS), I can tell you that the main thing a competitor looks for in a die is one that works with his chamber and brass at the pressure ranges he loads to. You need to be aggressive enough with the sizing so you can effortlessly open the bolt after firing a 70,000+ psi load without disturbing the gun in the bags. We beat the dog snot out of cases so F.L. sizing and bumping the shoulders is what you need to do. When the clock is running, the wind flags are dancing around and there's guns going off on both sides of you...no Interweb nonsense or ridiculous Urban Legends surrounding accuracy is going to save you.

So there's more to the equation that non-competitors think there is.

The most commonly used full length bushing die is the Harrell's. They offer a range of die sizes that size in .0005 increments that will accomodate almost any scenario. I have them for my 30BR in #2, #2.5, #3 and #3.5. I also have and use the Redding Type S F.L. Bushing die (which sizes like the Harrels #2 or 2.5). A few others here have been converted from Redding Body Dies into bushing style dies. The stainless Wilson F.L. bushing dies are excellent, too....couple of those here.

Other dies I've seen on the Win-Place-Show are Redding Competition Series sliding chamber dies, Forsters (with tweaks and work) and the mentioned Wilson F.L. bushing dies. There are quite a few using Bullet Central dies and a fair number that use custom dies done with a sizing reamer that works with the chambering reamer.

At this level of competition, you don't see any Lee Collet dies or Lee dies of any sort. I've never seen anyone sizing necks against a fixed dimension mandrel inside the case neck either. The use of a bushing to adjust neck tension is critical to tuning these guns, especially at the chamber pressures we run them at.

The bottom line is: in real Benchrest competition (where people see the results and your name and score/placing is posted) you use a dies that works for your program to combine accuracy, ease of extraction, repeatability and acceptable case life. What one guy does may not be the other guys approach. But both can win and shoot well when their approach is part of the entire combination.

Good shootin' -Al

How did this thread turn into a discussion of what benchresters do? A lot of guys shooting benchrest with 30-06? In a sporter-weight rifle? Using Federal Brass?

Weird sort of pissing match going on here.

Good info, and I appreciate your skills, but I'd much rather be whacking hogs, deer, aoudad, axis, etc than wasting time at any sort of shooting competition.

Since BR shooting was referenced, I posted facts to clear up obvious misconceptions.

No more, no less. And certainly no recommendations for those techniques to be used in hunting rifles.

I sure don't in mine. -Al

I prep brass the same way for most of my hunting rifles as my match rifles. But then I like to ring out the best accuracy possible. I use Redding Type S Bushing dies with Competition Seaters.

They seem to whack animals and steel well. 😁

I think what we really need to understand is how neck sizing is going to cause you to blow up a rifle. I think Ol Pete's probably the only one who understands it but he's not sharing. LOL.

A good definition of what Cortina is referring to as "neck sizing" would be nice. I think it's subtly revealed in the full context of his presentation, key word "subtle." I take it to mean "no body sizing whatsoever at any time."

The most important thing to understand is that most of us are hunters not 1000 benchrest shooters trying to win the world championship. Neck sizing in a rifle with a good barrel will shoot 2" ish groups at 500 yards. If that's not good enouph for hunting distances than you probably better PFLS everytime. Both of the processes work depending on what your doing. If your benchrest shooting PFLS everytime. If your a hunter who is planning a hunt and your going to shoot your critter at 300 yards or less your doing a hell of a lot of extra work if you PFLS everytime to net absolutely NOTHING



Trystan

I neck turn all of my brass. I also bestow a name to every cartridge after I seat a bullet.

There’s Abe, Ben, Cal, Dave…

You have to get serious about this stuff

"Dammit Edmund! Why do you mock me so?"

Well then maybe you can answer these questions. Why would anyone neck size their brass only? What would be their purpose in doing this?

That is sure what it seems like in those videos of his. What he seems to be calling FL sizing sounds a lot like bumping the shoulder a few thousandths and resizing the neck. What a lot of people would call partial full length sizing.

In at least one of those videos of his where he is at some sort of a match and goes around asking people if they neck size, one of the participants seems confused by what he is asking and spells it out , that he bumps the shoulder and resizes the neck.

Or at least that is what I took out of his videos.

Yup. I think I heard him mention explicitly a bump of 0.002" (or maybe it was 0.003"). I think that is what he's really advocating. So, when he says "neck size" I can only take that to mean sizing the neck ONLY. I wish he'd have been a little more clear, then maybe he wouldn't have a bunch of people "pissed off at him."

Definitions matter...and we're a little short of them.

Found this. Start watching at 22 minutes.

Given the first bolded sentence, are you honing the die necks to achieve the second bolded sentence, or some other means? Also, does it matter how many times a case has been fired when it comes to setting up a die for desired shoulder push back? I've always taken measurements using once fired brass. Thank you.

I'll give you an example. I have a 30-06 I use for deer and pigs, and sometimes for plinking steel at the range. The loads I use are mild by modern standards, consider them "Garand appropriate" with 150/155 and 165/168 grain bullets. With such loads in my rifle the brass doesn't iron itself hard into the chamber. The extraction is super easy, and fired cases rechamber easily as well. For this combination I routinely use a Lee collet die to size the brass. It's quick, needs no case lube to apply and remove, and the cases assemble into straight cartridges. Accuracy is very good too.

Excellent. That clarifies things nicely...and confirms what I was saying (or at least what I was TRYING to say ).

When I set my FL die to bump the shoulder .003" that is full length sizing, the full length of the case gets sized.

Can't believe this thread is still going on. Some great info in some of the posts.

One thing I would suggest is that if you insist on neck sizing only, be sure to keep your locking lugs well greased. And don't be too surprised if you eventually end up with clickers even after FL resizing.

This is my definition as well.

People tend to equate "full length sizing" with "sizing to new brass dimensions" or "sizing to SAAMI minimum".

Yeah, I've never understood referring to minimal full length sizing as partial full length sizing.

paithfinder76 ,thanks for posting this video ,nice to hear how the S-Die was invented and know i sure like the S -bushing Full length dies too. would be interesting to ask these gentlemen in this video what bullets they now prefer to use in matches ?

Honing the necks with barrel laps works well but it's a royal PITA. Using a carbide reamer to open the neck to the size wanted works very well.


On a hunting rifle where the bullet is well off the rifling, it will usually (but not always) take a couple firings for the case head-to-datum to settle down. That also depends on the brass hardness, case shoulder angle, etc, etc.

When initially setting up dies for a hunting rig, I use a single case with the bullet hard into the rifling, an upper end load, lightly lube the case and fire it to establish the case head-to-datum for setting up the dies. That's not something everyone is comfortable doing and I get that....just sayin' that it works well.

One thing that can really make life easier is using these die adjustment shims. No more fiddling around and trying to move the lock ring a micro amount to bump the shoulder a bit more or less. These are from .003 to .010 thick and I start by plopping a .006 under the lock ring and adjusting from there. If you need to adjust the shoulder bump a few thou., it easy to just put a thinner or thicker shim on, stack 'em, etc. to accomplish it. The die lock ring stays locked in place.

Once you start using these, it will be one of those 'light bulb moments'.

Was going to add these are almost universally used in the 'B' world. Glad I caught myself...that was a close one.

Hope this helps. -Al

Which for all intents and purposes is impossible. Not only that, but measure a few cases from different manufacturers. They are all different

Yes!

The action wasn't meant to be used as a sizing die...but that's exactly what's happening when cases are hard to chamber due to case sizing issues.

I'm well aware. I have at least ten different manufactures of 308 in my active brass.

That's my definition of "glutton for punishment"

Al, is there any reason these won't work using a Forster Co-Ax?

It does. Thank you.

I don't know who this "anyone" that you refer to is. Another snarky question from another passive-aggressive woman. If you're asking me, then ask me. Didn't anyone ever teach you how to communicate effectively?

The reason why I only neck-size 30-06 brass is because it WORKS for me. It is quick, minimally works the brass, which leads to long, long case life, and I've experienced zero negatives from doing it. Lots of positives, though, like the accuracy I want, and not having to spend a bunch of time dicking with cases.

I noted in my original post that this is specific to 30-06 brass that I keep annealed. It doesn't work for every case I load. This is a thread about 30-06 cases. I made my original post not to preach to Gospel According to HuntnShoot, but to simply state how I DO IT, with positive results. To let the OP know there is at least one guy out there doing things this way with positive, repeatable results for years.

I don't feel the need to get into a pissing match with twats like you. Do what you want, then report the results. That's why we're all here.

You do you. But I see you have changed your answer. Lol.

Yeah? Where have I changed anything?

I read it once and didn’t find it quite as vile as the second time. Maybe it was.

Have a lovely day, Susan.

I've not used them in a Forster CoAx press...not sure how much 'stack' the slot would allow.

I'd take a look at these. A friend uses them on his CoAx and likes 'em a lot.

https://shortactioncustoms.com/product/solo-loc-rings/

Good shootin' -Al

Those look like great accessories, Al. I'll bet they work dandy, too. I've spent quite a bit of time adjusting lock rings on dies for my Co-Ax...if I'd known about these I might have had a lot more time on my hands, enough so that I might have spent that time in the pool hall and ended up in the hoosegow.

And the answer to that is...0.003 inch or maybe 0.0035 inch. Just checked it on my own press.

FWIW.

I used to neck size only using the Redding "S" comp dies/seaters without an expander for nearly 20 years, until I had a friend of mine work up a load for me using plane jane RCBS FL dies/seaters with the same one hole results in my .300 Win. So I gave up on the "looks good on paper/internet" and went down the results route.

Now I only FL size (.002) using Whidden non bushing custom dies.

ps The eponymous "S" in Redding Type S Bushing Dies (Speedy Gonzalez) was also in one of Cortina's videos, who also answered "neck size."

I let the gun in the chamber dictate what it likes. normally that is controlled shoulder bump with a bushing the control the neck size. sometimes at standard non-bushing dies will work just fine, actually most of the time in sammi chambers.

Read through most of this thread and trying to understand how a bullet could be unstable at 100 - 200 yards and then stabilize at 250 - 300...

johnn,

Here's a much longer essay on the subject of boattail bullets that appeared in Handloader magazine. Not all of it is relevant to this discussion, but it explains some stuff that is:

MYTHS AND MISCONCEPTIONS ABOUT
BOATTAIL BULLETS

Among the subjects often arising on the Internet, that 21st-century source of information and myth, involves whether boattail rifle bullets increase barrel erosion compared to flat-based bullets. Some shooters claim they do, because the tapered boattail allows hot powder-gas to slip past the bullet’s base as it enters the rifling. Flat-based bullets form a far firmer gas-seal, especially lead-cored bullets, since they tend to “bump up” a little in diameter when powder gas boots them in the butt.

Many 21st-century shooters claim boattails don’t erode chamber throats any faster than flat-bases, though few cite specific references involving controlled tests. In one heated Internet exchange, three technical books about modern rifle ballistics were cited as “disproving” the boattail myth. It just so happened that I had all three books in my firearms library, and after essentially rereading all three, the only discussions of boattails I found involved their ballistic advantages. Perhaps the folks who cited the books think absence of the erosion issue is proof it doesn’t exist.

I also knew, however, that somewhere in my reading an “authority” mentioned accelerated erosion, so started looking through my several hundred books on rifles. Luckily, it showed up quickly in my two-volume reprint of the monthly “Gun Notes” columns Elmer Keith wrote for Guns & Ammo from 1961-82.
The December 1961 column includes an essay on barrel life. Keith was a member of three Montana or Idaho National Guard rifle teams that competed in the National Matches at Camp Perry, the first two in 1924 and 1925. In fact Keith joined the Montana National Guard partly because the rifle team would be issued both rifles and ammunition from the Bozeman armory, the closest to his family’s ranch. The National Match 1903 Springfield, with an “air-gauged” barrel, was the standard rifle, and in 1924 the then-new National Match ammunition was used. It featured a 179-grain bullet with a 6-degree boattail and Hercules Hi-Vel, an early, hot-burning double-based powder known for being hard on barrels. Team members were allowed to purchase their issued rifles at a discount after the matches, but Keith passed in 1924 and 1925, claiming only 400 shots ruined their barrels for use on the long-range targets.

However, part of the problem was the primer. The early Army priming compounds were at least 40% potassium chlorate, which is hydroscopic, attracting atmospheric moisture. This resulted in rusty bores if not cleaned immediately after firing—and cleaning back then required water (preferably hot) to rinse out the potassium chlorate, and “ammonia dope” a strong ammonia solution to remove copper fouling, which tended to etch bores slightly, like very fine bead-blasting.
Experiments have proven such etching tends to keep hot powder gas in contact with the bore longer, quickly resulting in the cracking of the steel just in front of the chamber often called “alligator skin.” These cracks allow even more hot gas to leak around the bullet, so the primers and cleaning methods tended to shorten barrel life.

“Ammonia dope” was developed due to the extreme fouling resulting from cupronickel bullet jackets, made of a combination of copper and nickel. Cupronickel was used for jackets of many early smokeless-powder rifle bullets because it was hard enough to resist deformation, important both in non-expanding bullets, whether military full-metal-jackets or “solids” for hunting very large big game, and soft-nose bullets for hunting smaller big game.
Initially, cupronickel left relatively little copper-fouling in rifle bores, because most smokeless military and commercial cartridges introduced until 1904 produced muzzle velocities around 2000 fps. In 1904 Mauser replaced the original 227-grain roundnose in the 8x57’s military load with a 154-grain spitzer, bumping the velocity up to around 2800 fps—and cupronickel fouling became more of a problem.

The same basic thing happened with U.S. military cartridges. Cupronickel fouling wasn’t a major problem with the 220-grain .30-40 Krag’s bullet at around 2000 fps, or even when the 1903 Springfield boosted the same bullet to 2200 fps. In 1906, however, the U.S. military followed Mauser’s lead, replacing the 220-grain roundnose with a 150-grain spitzer at 2700 fps. Visible lumps of jacket fouling soon built up in the bore, and proved very difficult to remove.
Eventually this problem was solved by switching to jackets made of gilding metal, a much softer combination of 90% copper and 10% zinc. However, years of experimentation in production methods took place before gilding metal jackets became sufficiently hard to hold up to high pressure, especially important with boattail bullets.

The faster barrel erosion resulting from the first Springfield boattails was in comparison to the 1906 “full metal jacket” spitzers. These actually didn’t have a FMJ, due to the common method of making cup-and-core bullets, swaging a lead core into a cup of jacket material. Soft-nosed bullets are swaged with the core exposed at the front end of the bullet, and flat-based FMJs so the core is exposed at the rear end. Consequently the 150-grain 1906 bullets really “bumped up” in diameter, sealing the bore tightly against powder gas.

In contrast, full metal jacket boattail bullets are swaged with the core inserted in the front end of jacket, and the sharp tip of the spitzer totally closed. As a result, the jacketed rear end prevents them from bumping-up as much as flat-based bullets, especially when compared to exposed-core flat-bases.
Add hot-burning powders, corrosive primers, and strong ammonia cleaning solvents and yes, boattails did result in faster bore erosion—which is noted in more than one reference book on the development of the 1903 Springfield and .30-06 military ammunition.

Eventually non-corrosive primers and gilding-metal jackets helped reduce the erosion problem, but another major step took place in the 1930s, with the development of DuPont IMR4895, partially for the M1 Garand. IMR4895 worked so well the powder remains popular among handloaders today, though it’s now made by General Dynamics Ordnance in Valleyfield, Quebec, using a formula close to the original DuPont powder.

IMR4895 burned both cooler and cleaner than previous .30-06 powders, and became the standard both for military and match ammunition, reducing bore erosion and fouling. In the 1940 National Matches Keith shot on the Idaho National Guard team, and noted, “I found my rifle was still very accurate and still in very good shape, owing to the much cooler powder used in the 1940 National Match loadings.”

He doesn’t mention whether he purchased the rifle or not (by then he owned plenty of other rifles to play with), but began the very next paragraph with: “Modern boattail bullets are much harder on rifle barrels than flat-base bullets, for the very good reason that the pushing gas forms a wedge trying to get past the tapered base of the boattail bullet. It does escape past the boattail, as these bullets do not upset to fill the grooves as quickly as flat-base bullets. In so escaping the gas soon burns out the rifle throat.”

This seems to contradict his 1940 results, which were confirmed by tests made at Frankford Arsenal in 1945-46, indicating the accurate life of a typical .30-06 military barrel when used with boattail ammo ran up to around 5000 rounds. However, once Keith formed an opinion on any subject he tended to stick to it, often despite evidence to the contrary.

This is exactly why he used 300-grain cup-and-core Kynoch bullets in his .333 OKH on his first African safari in 1957—he believed in long, heavy bullets at moderate muzzle velocities, no matter their construction. Despite the steel jackets, the Kynoch soft-noses blew up like varmint bullets, even on coyote-sized Thomson’s gazelles. He finished the safari with Kynoch “solids,” which penetrated well but the small wound channel didn’t kill larger plains game animals very quickly—the reason he concluded that all African animals were “as tough as an old gum boot.” He could have saved himself considerable trouble by using a .30-06 with 180-grain Nosler Partitions, which had been commercially available for a decade.

A more recent essay on boattail erosion was written in 1986 by D.R. Corbin, founder of Corbin Mfg. & Supply, the well-known maker of bullet-swaging dies. He lists several research sources, including Aberdeen Proving Grounds in Maryland and White Sands Missile Range in New Mexico.

Corbin explained boattail barrel erosion with far more detail than Keith: “Since gas pressure acts normal (at 90 degrees) to all surfaces… [this] tends to compress the boattail section of the jacketed bullet inward, peeling it away from the bore and allowing gas to channel its way into the rifling grooves, causing gas cutting of the rifling edges and the edges of the rifling imposed on the bullet. Micro-droplets of melted jacket material can be observed on most boattail bullet jackets along the rifling edges, especially toward the rear of the bullet shank, some large enough to see without a magnifying aid. The flat based bullet tends to compress in length so that the shank is expanded into the rifling, for a superior seal.”

Corbin advocated using a rebated-boattail design, first developed by Lapua in the 1930s, with a definite “step” at the front of the boattail, reducing its diameter slightly. “When the gas reaches the rebated area…it forces the gas to act parallel to the bore rather than at a compressive angle…. Internal pressure from the compressed, angled base area then pushes the lead outward, against the inside of the jacket, which in turn seals against the bore more tightly. The peeling-away of the base from the bore is eliminated.”

The rebated boattail also theoretically eliminates another problem, the burst of powder gas at the muzzle, which exceeds bullet velocity. With a standard boattail bullet, the muzzle gas flows around the outside of the bullet, destabilizing it slightly. This is why short-range benchrest shooters use flat-base bullets: The base deflects the gas to the sides, and the bullet doesn’t wobble as much after leaving the muzzle.

All of this may be why many hunters who rarely shoot groups beyond 100 yards often claim their rifles don’t “like” boattails. However, at ranges beyond 200-300 yards the superior ballistic coefficient of boattails reduces wind-drift, making them more accurate.

To many shooters, rebated boattails would intuitively appear to reduce ballistic coefficient, but Lapua makes 185-grain .308 diameter target bullets in both the rebated D46 and the standard boattail Scenar—and lists both the G1 and G7 ballistic coefficients of the D46 bullet as slightly higher than the Scenar. So does Bryan Litz, in his fine book Ballistic Performance of Rifle Bullets, which in my own range-testing has provided more accurate BC information than supplied by some bullet factories. Yet relatively few rifle bullet manufacturers make rebated boattails.

Berger, Hornady and Sierra and well-known for making both target and hunting boattails, but none offers any rebated models. There are probably several reasons, but the biggie is rebated boattails are more difficult to manufacture, and hence more expensive. One example appears on the website of Graf & Sons, a well-known seller of handloading supplies: A 500-bullet box of Lapua 185-grain .30-caliber D46 bullets lists for $535.99, while 500 of the 185-grain .30 Scenars lists for $469.99, 12% less. In fact, when I looked through my supply of target bullets there were no rebated boattails from any company.

Litz is considered perhaps the preeminent rifle ballistician writing today, partly because he has his own long test-range and ballistic lab in Michigan. He disagrees with some of Corbin’s statements in another of his excellent books, Applied Ballistics for the Long-Range Shooter.

Corbin claims “a typical…boattail has from nine to fifteen degrees (measured from the center-line of the bullet) and is about a caliber long. There is no great difference in the performance of any specific angle or length within this general range.” Litz states: “Tests have shown that the optimal angle for boat-tails is around 7-8 degrees.” This is pretty close to the 9 degrees Townsend Whelen arrived at in tests for the U.S. Army over a century ago.
Interestingly, Litz never mentions the supposed barrel-erosion problems of standard boattails, perhaps because powders, barrel steels and even boattail bullets have improved considerably. One major change in bullets has been the appearance of monolithics, made entirely of copper or gilding metal, such as Barnes X-Bullets. Many monolithics are boattails, but because their rear end is too hard for powder to compress it much (if at all), the gas also can’t “peel” the boattail away from the bore. I suspect the same thing is true with bullets like the Nosler Ballistic Tip, which features a much thicker jacket-base than typical cup-and-core bullets.

One example might be the old Remington 722 in .257 Roberts that my paternal grandmother was given by her second husband in 1953. After she passed away it traveled around the family until 1984, when I acquired it for Eileen after she decided to start hunting.

At that time it had probably been fired less than 300 rounds, since nobody else in the family handloaded, or hunted varmints. I worked up a big game load with 100-grain Nosler Partitions and a varmint load with 75-grain Sierras hollow-points, and the rifle groups both well under an inch. Over the next couple decades we put over 1000 rounds through the .257, and the chamber throat developed some gator hide.

After about 2000 it mostly rested in our safe, but a few years ago I decided to take Grandma B’s .257 pronghorn hunting—and discovered the somewhat worn barrel refused to group 100-grain Partitions very well. Experimentation with other bullets found the rifle now grouped 3 shots with the 100-grain Barnes TTSX and Nosler Ballistic Tip about like the original Partition handloads. Is this due to the “hard” boattail of both bullets? I suspect so.

I also suspect typical cup-and-core boattails still have some effect on bore erosion, but with today’s primers, powders and barrels the effect is so minimal tens of thousands of both boattail and flat-base bullets would have to be fired through dozens of barrels to arrive at any conclusion. Plus, those shooters lucky enough to burn out plenty of barrels have already “voted” by using plenty of plain old boattails, because any difference in barrel life is so small to be inconsequential.

Mule Deer, thats a mouthful...!
Thanks for the reply, I may have learned something.
I have been thinking about reloading as I have a couple of rifles that I believe I could improve accuracy over off the shelf ammo, which in today's world might be wishful thinking.
After reading your comprehensive reply I wonder if I want to breach the handloading rabbit hole.

Barrel life is not of great concern these days as I am at the point there is more in the mirror then in the windshield and am looking forward to wearing schit out.

Boattails and accuracy, still trying to understand how a bullet can stabilize at longer distances. In my mind it strikes me a wobbling bullet will continue wobbling in continuously bigger cycles, maybe shows my lack of knowledge regarding physics.

Boattails and barrel/throat erosion, I can picture what you are saying in regards to pressure on the side of the bullet compared to a "sealed" cup and core, analyzing this minuscule detail is well beyond my pay grade and obviously you have researched this in depth, and shared that without opinion, what is your opinion on the matter?

Krags, the US was slow at figuring out spitzer bullets, and Teddy was pizzed at being outgunned. I wonder how the Krags would have performed if they had loaded 160 G pointy bullets, or for that matter just used 6.5 x 55s.
They were stuck on 30 cal and heavy bullets much to their detriment.

What an informative article! The content is like a doctoral dissertation but it reads like Louis L'Amour Thanks for posting it. I learned a bunch.

All elongated bullets "wobble" slightly as they leave the muzzle, due to the powder gas blasting the base of the bullet--but boattails tend to wobble more than flat-bases for the reason stated in the essay. But if the bullet spin from the rifling is sufficient to stabilize the bullet, the wobble dissipates.

Some shooters call this the bullet going "to sleep." It generally takes longer for boattails to go to sleep than flat-based bullets, due to the powder gas causing more muzzle-exit wobble--but at longer ranges they don't drift as much in the wind, so tend to group better than flat-bases.

MD, all very interesting. thanks

Essay indeed! Thanks for your time JB.

Thanks, but all I had to do was copy and paste the article/chapter!

Which is one reason we started publishing the Gun Gack series of books in 2015: They look more closely at many aspects of rifles, handloading and shooting than the typical Internet forum post, sometimes with more technical details. But apparently many shooters/hunters still prefer shorter Internet "sound bites," mostly because they're free.

But the first GG book is now in its 5th printing, and the 4th (which appeared a month ago) is well on its way to selling out its first printing. This seems to indicate at least some shooters prefer more detailed "essays."