Im working up loads and found a load that measures .89. The problem is all three holes are just touching or very close in a lateral or flat line. Whats the best way to tune this group? If I could just move either outsiide bullets inside my group would be very respectable.

Shoot the same load again, and again, and again, … Then report back.

Three shots is meaningless.

Shoot 5 shots at least per group when doing load development. That will tell you more than a single 3 shot group. Then what you are looking for is a round group.

Or 7 shots

Vertical stringing (consistently) is usually indicative that a powder increase is needed.

I'm going to respectfully disagree with that. If you're a hunter, it's the first shot from a cold barrel that counts anyway. The following two confirm that the first was no fluke. More holes after that aren't necessary. I've never taken 5 shots at anything but paper.

Terry Wieland (I think) had an article about shooting multiple 3-shot groups on targets superimposed on top of each other. You end up with a 3-, 6-, 9-, 12-shot mix; however much you think it takes.

Appears to be workable, if not the best for someone who’s just about to turn 71 and with a gammy leg.

Takes a lot of walking…….

You are both right. 3 shot groups are meaningless statistically for load development but once a rifle's accuracy is verified, sighting in for hunting can be accomplished with only 3 shots.

Starting from the start...what are you using for wind indicators?

Good shootin' -Al

Starting from the start...what are you using for wind indicators?

^^^^^This.

Here's another example of a problem with "reading groups," in particular 3-shot groups.

These groups were fired on the same day from a custom 7x57. It was a relatively calm day, but I still used wind-flags--and let the barrel cool down between groups.

They looked like pretty nice 3-shot groups, but then I superimposed each target on an unshot target, and drew a line around the inside of each bullet hole. The resulting 9-shot group is not just considerably larger (due to statistical probability) but the three groups obviously vary somewhat in apparent point-of-impact. A professional statistician I have corresponded with--a rifle loony who's done considerable research on stuff--says he found the center of 3-shot groups varied about .7 inch from group to group at 100 yards.

Now all of this doesn't really mean much to most big game hunters, because big game is by definition large, and some variation in group size (or group point-of-impact) doesn't matter much when the chest vitals of even a pronghorn are the diameter of a volleyball, and the average hunter rarely shoots beyond 300 yards.

But it does illustrate why trying to "read" anything from one 3-shot group doesn't work very well.

So what you get when you impose them is a gun that’s not very accurate. I have noticed that on many occasions one has to move your point of impact a couple clicks to get rezeroed. For hunting it means nothing but for competition it’s a big difference. It’s just shooting variables. Edk

Lol, read this thread. It will make your head spin.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...s/18014723/group-statistics#Post18014723

Natural variance due to shooter...............LOL

MM

This is not about shooting game animals. You may want to re-read the op's first 4 words: "I'm working up loads".. This thread is not about what you do when you have confirmed a load. It's what you do when you have an issue with a load, or rifle presumably. When "working up loads", often times 3 shots does not confirm anything.. The only time I'll really use them is with magnum rifles, then I'll shoot multiple 3 shot groups and then a 5 shot group to confirm that it is trustworthy. Other than that, pee shooters, varmint rifles, precision rifles, and most of my hunting rifles get 5 shot groups for load work up.. Some even 10 shot groups for better confirmation. When it comes to reading groups and you are slinging 3 shots, they better all be touching or be a very nice equilateral triangle. On a "confirmed" load, I'll use 3 shots to check zero and POI at distance, but this is not about what we do with a confirmed load. Another reason 5 shots are better is because you will see if your load is double grouping. Sometimes that means you need to shorten the OAL, or add a little more powder. 3 in 2 out is considered double grouping. Hence the reason I suggested the OP shoot 5 shots per group. This goes without saying as well, but I'm going to say it. I'm assuming the OP's rifle is properly glass bedded and scope mounts loc tited, torqued and rings in perfect alignment. Scope should also be a verified "proven" scope and rifle "proven" it's accurate/precise with another load. Also, when I say accurate, that means that POI does not shift around regardless of how its sitting in the bags, bi-pod, or front rest and we can all assume the rifle is on a nice steady bench and the shooter knows what he is doing. If the shooter is at fault, there is nothing we can do about that.

Exactly.

Except for the fact that a 9-shot group under 2" is very accurate for a typical light big game rifle. Which is what many shooters/hunters don't realize--because as Jim Carmichel once stated, most "pet loads" for hunting rifles are based on a single 3-shot group.

Which is exactly what many of todays hunters do--after ONE half-inch groups, which is what their buddies brag about--and these days consider barely adequate for shooting whitetails out of a box-blind at 200 yards.

Here's another photo, of 100-yard groups shot working up loads with my 6mm PPC benchrest rifle--which with scope weighs right at the 13-pound limit for "heavy" bench rifles. If I recall correctly, these were 4-shot groups, which I prefer to 3-shot when working up loads for anything other than big game rifles. Please note that they still have different POIs:

I like 5 + shot groups for all the reasons stated plus it’s so much easier to determine the center of the group for a final scope adjustment. Those apps that measure group size, like Ballistic X will give you the center of the group and the scope adjustments needed to center the group on the center of what you are aiming at.

JB, didn’t you have a formula, like a 1” 3 shot group will open up to ~ 1.6” with a 5 shot group? 5/3 = 1.6

Mrs. Ponsor's third grade - we had two reading groups: the robins and the bluebirds.

Yeah, partly because that's about what I've noted when firing 3-shot groups with a rifle, then marking the group and shooting another two rounds.

The statistics guy I corresponded with said the long time American Rifleman standard of five, 5-shot groups was pretty darn good for predicting a rifle/load's consistent accuracy--but also that when using modern computer programs he'd found 6-shot groups were a little better.

It all depends on what dependable degree of accuracy somebody desires. Obviously that would be very different for the average deer hunter--or even a traveling hunter who's after elk, or African plains game--than a target or small-varmint shooter.

In which group were you?

I was a proud robin.

What if d-o-g spelled cat?

Whoa…

No matter how well a gun shoots, 5 shot groups will run about 40% larger than a 3 shot group.

Lacking even the most basic windflags, there's no load 'development' being done when you go to the range. Shooters think they've really found something only to end up scratching their head the next time out when their 'pet load' doesn't perform. Then it's rinse and repeat. And on it goes.

Even in relatively decent conditions, a single flag at 100 will get you at least 25% improvement. And often more.

Good shootin' -Al

Well I have to agree. The 2 things I rarely if ever see when people say load development at the range.
Wind flags never
Chronograph is once in a blue moon

I made up some simple 'donor' flags and toss a couple in with my gear whenever I go to the range. If there's someone there that seems to be at a teachable moment I'll put one out for them. Then, with them holding the same POA, I'll tap them on the shoulder when it's time to shoot, per the flag orientation. The results are predictable as are the smiles. The flag is gifted to them and they come up with their own poles.

The only problem is now I'm out of 'donor' flags.

Good shootin' -Al

Al
What kind of flags do you use? I can't imagine I would need them at the range I use... surrounded by trees and I never shoot when the mph is more than 5...

Quite a few people (accomplished smallbore shooters) say, if you are only going to put out 1 flag, put it somewhere between the muzzle and the halfway mark. I know it's counter intuitive, when you factor 'time of flight'...but in real world shooting for score it seems to work better when you can't shoot unlimited sighters.

Here's an old thread that might be useful.
Group shape, does it matter?

I used to put out wind flags, where I lived because it was damn windy in the gorge all the time. Now where I live, it's windy on occasion, but most times it is about 5 mph. A light wind will not mess with a group too much when you have a target set at 100 yards away. I know JB has written some articles on using wind flags, but from what I've seen, the wind has very little affect on modern bullets at short range. As for those that simply rely on a chronograph to give you numbers, well, I've seen that bite guys in the azz too. If you are working up a load, shooting and reading groups, you better bring your A game to the bench. That is the most important factor, besides knowing your rifle is mechanically sound. However, if you want to use Wind flags, they are super simple to make. But I would suggest to work up loads on a fairly calm day, vs shooting in the wind. Use surveyors tape, if you have to. Those are easy to see and move in the wind easily. Plus a roll is easy to keep in the range bag or truck. These days I just staple up my targets in a way that the wind will move the bottom corners of the paper. I use 3 staples. 2 in the top and 1 in the bottom. Its easy to feel which direction the wind is coming from at the bench and then look downrange on target to see if the bottom corner of the paper target is moving as well. In some of my long range shoots, wind flags are not allowed. I love that aspect too, because then you have to use the environment to judge the wind. A lot of guys fail that test, but when you learn to read things like a bush or grass moving downrange, or bullet splash and dust cloud direction, then you are learning real world scenarios that will move a bullet at distance. None of you guys are mentioning head winds and tail winds either, if you really want to get technical, you should delve into that in your free time. Guys don't like my targets, but this group was shot the other day when this thread started. 5 mph wind and it was the best group shot during load development:

NOTE: All groups shot this day, were sub moa.

That was from a new rifle, that I threw into a B&C, glass bedded it and scoped it with a new scope after I checked the rifle with a proven scope. Now to test the New Zeiss V4 conquest and rifle and develop some loads with unfamiliar powder and bullets:

I don't generally like to "develop" loads at 400 yards, but I figured it was too cold and slightly too windy to develop loads that day anyway. So out of curiosity, I flung some at 400 yards. Here is the result of one 3 shot group:


I also had another rifle out that day: My 6.5 Creedmoor Tikka CTR that I just put in a Mcmillan A3 stock. Also working on some loads with the Barnes match burner bullet in this rifle. Both rifles also using StaBall 6.5 powder. All new to me, but I wanted to do some testing. One load did the best at 100 yards:

Then another charge weight looked like crap, but if you lay one target over the other you are still going to have a sub moa (.831") 10 shot group:

There's that evil double grouping I was talking about earlier^^^^^^ (3 in 1 hole and 2 out). Who knows, maybe a wind gust came in from the left side? Still not enough to really concern me. I knew the wind was pretty constant though from left to right.

At 400, I put 3/4 moa adjustment in the scope to shift the POI more to the left, but that was still not quite enough:


So what does this tell me? As I had intended, and written on the targets, I will need to double check a couple loads from each rifle. I want to see how this powder does on a warmer day. Some guys say StaBall 6.5 is pretty temp stable. We will see. As for "reading" groups, I'll fire off some 10 shot groups to see what they are really doing. Once confirmed, you can then shoot your 3 shot groups. At 100 yards, those are pretty boring, but at 400+ yards, they will show you POI shift due to the wind.

Always get a kick out of the armchair statisticians ...... sample size blah blah blah. Who here can tell me how to set up an ANOVA with the variables being powder charge, seating depth, and shoulder bump?

How bout a statistical experiment to identify best brass, powder, or primer for the intended purpose?

I will throw some numbers at you.

If your wind is constant @ 5mph which my testing has shown it never is a 52 grain match bullet leaving the muzzle @ 3400 and wind 0 = no drift. So will assume that shot 1 is at 0 mph
Shot 2 with a 3 mph wind at 3 o’clock = .32” drift from shot1
Shot 3 with a 5 mph wind @ 3 o’clock = .53” drift from shot 1
Shot 4 with 8 mph wind @ 3 o’clock = .85” drift from shot 1
Shot 5 lands somewhere in the 0-8
So possible variance in the group is .85”

Now wind flags, even just surveyors tape on a 3/8” dowel placed at say 50 and 75 yards allows me to pick a condition of either 0, 3, 5 or 8 mph that is most common. Now if you judge it right and shoot the same flag condition it eliminates most of the variance possibilities.

The armchair statistics people are always talkin' about sample size blah blah blah. Regardless of sample size a confidence interval on group size can ALWAYS be calculated. BUEHLER ..... BUEHLER .... BUEHLER.

I thought so.

The real nice thing about a "constant" wind is it will not affect group size. Only group POI. Think about that one..

Yep ... but what universe are you in when wind speed is actually constant?

This may be one of the most useful campfire threads I've seen in years.


Okie John

😳

I will agree with BSA on, is that in 25 years of group, score and BR 50/50 or ARA I have never ever seen a single wind flag used at 50-100 yards. Usually there were so many of them you could barely see the ground out to the target backers. 🤣

One of the instances where flags are VERY useful at 50-100 yards is testing rimfire ammo....

If you want to get started, here's a sketch of the 'donor' flags referenced earlier. Anyone with simple hand tools can make these for under $10 with stuff from Ace Hardware. Old election or advertising signs are perfect for the Corroplast. But it's dirt cheap at Staples or anywhere that makes signs....lots of times they have scrap pieces they'll give you or sell for a couple bucks.

When you start using flags, two of the first myths you'll find dispelled are the 'steady wind' and 'dead calm' myths. There's no such thing as a 'steady wind'. Ever. Period. Ditto for the 'dead calm' stuff. After you shoot for a while over flags, you'll realize that a condition that feels like a 'dead calm' is anything but.

Good shootin' -Al

The flags I use at my local range are these simple triangular shaped ones. I'll either use a piece of sail cloth on the back to better judge wind velocity or a daisy wheel up front if the wind is honkin' pretty good. If the daisy wheel comes off, the weights on the shaft keep the flag balanced on the pin:





At other ranges and depending on the winds forecast for the day, I'll either use the triangles (with or w/o daisy wheel), these really nice double vane flags (with or w/o daisy wheel) or these airfoil flags that don't use a daisy wheel:









Set up over the triangles at this years NBRSA South Dakota State Score tournament:



Shooting over the doubles at 200 at the NBRSA Score Nationals this year at Webster City, Iowa:

Shouldn't it be "ambient wind speed"?

For people that buy into the 'calm wind' Urban Legend, here's something you should look at.

On the first pole is a Dittman 'Windicator'. This is a balanced beam that moves in response to the wind. It doesn't rotate so it's only perfectly accurate at 3:00 and 9:00 wind directions. But even in angled winds, it still responds....so it's all relative. The day I took these pics of my double vanes, it was what most would consider to be a 'dead calm'. If you look at the Windicator, you'll see there's an ever so slight 'push' from the 3:00. But now look at the flags. Only flags 3 and 5 show what the Windicator shows and what I felt. Flags 2&6 show half the value. And 1&4 are completely out of synch with the other four flags.

None of these flags were wrong. Rather, they were showing exactly what was moving around out in very 'dead calm' conditions and over a very short span of distance.

Hope this helps. -Al

That is exactly true. Hard as it is Al I must agree with you.

MD, I agree completely. After many years of being some what neglected my rimfires are going to see more use @ 100 yards. It’s cheap and can’t do anything but help.

For those that don't want to mess with making your own flags, MTM Case-Gard offers a very inexpensive flag and pole setup that's worth looking at. The poles are only 33" tall so depending on the range, you might need to make an extension. I saw one of these yesterday...they're everything that anyone short of a serious competitive shooter would need.

https://mtmcase-gard.com/products/wind-reader-shooting-range-flag

Here's a slow motion video that shows just what's going on in what would appear to be light (< 10-12 mph) conditions. Watching it a few times will show much more than I could describe....mainly how the air moves and progresses across the range. Pay particular attention to the flag nearest the bench as this is indicative of what we'd feel at the bench. I'll guarantee you that if you pressed the trigger in several of those situations even when the wind 'feels' the same at the bench, that bullet is going to park itself North of 1/2" @ 100 yds. from other shots.

Good stuff Al. Thanks for posting reality.

i like the flags that you guys put out , i know of a 1,000 yard bench shooter who only puts out 1 flag at about 25 yards he claims that is the most important flag for him. before you think he is wrong he wins plenty and with a 6BR , he never gets a Dairy Queen either.

I have several buddies that are very competitive 1,000 yd. shooters and rifle builders. Speed is everything in that discipline...they find a condition they like and rip 'em down range as fast as possible before whatever is out there changes too radically. Very, very impressive when it all falls into place. Of course, 'the train wrecks' are spectacular too.

But that's a whole different kettle of fish that what most hunters and shooters looking for a consistent, good performing load need. Which is to simply have some means to avoid shooting when winds across the range are from different directions.

Fortunately, a couple simple flags give us that info. Shooters don't have to be some sort of wind shooting guru to see the benefits, either. Like anything in shooting (and life), covering the basics gets us 90% of the way there.

Good shootin' -Al

Al, I use at present 4 Keeney wind flags. I put those and 4 Grahams up for sale when I quit competition. The Grahams sold fast so I kept the Keeney. They work well for my purpose.
Your video reminds me that I have a video somewhere of my 75 and 90 yard flags both going 180 out from each other at the same time, also have one where the tails lift straight up without moving the vanes or prop. The wind does weird stuff at times.

Thanks. Mule Deer (John Barsness) has tried to educate hunters and shooters for years about using basic wind indicators to help them. John is well respected in the firearms world and I'm sure his efforts have borne more fruit than anyone's in this area.

Wind moves golf balls, arrows, airplanes and satellites. But for some reason, a big percentage of people think that because a bullet is small and fast (relatively) that they are somehow immune to the physical laws of the universe.

Good shootin' -Al

This season, I got a set of 8 Graham flags (4 big vane/4 small vane) and tested over them. So far, I like what I'm seeing.

When Jerry Hensler was developing this 'trot line' flag set up a few years ago, I ran a length of 1/4" coated cable from the firing line to the 100 yard target frames and clipped sail tails on it at 10 foot intervals. It was a decent day for conditions so I sat back, topped off my coffee and watched.

A few lengths of flagging tape placed here and there on the range beats the heck out of no indicators at all.

When I had my place in Dayton, I had 100 yards indoors. I could shoot some really impressive groups. Then go outdoors, with flags. Could never repeat what I did indoors. Sometimes close, but never as good.
Ask anyone who is a pilot if the wind can sudden change....especially when you are in the flair about a foot off the ground..
Charlie

You bet. It need not be complicated to work! -Al

Here is a very basic question. Say I put my wind flags out while shooting at 100 or 200 yards. Then what I do, meaning how do I use the information from the flags to assess the loads I am working up?

The same way I always do, the flags just help minimize the wind effects. If you shoot the same wind condition each shot, the group is valid. 2” is 2” but without the flags that 2” could actually be caused by variance in wind speed and direction at the time the shot breaks.

36” 3/8” dowel sharpened on one end. Punch a hole in the tape, crimp in a 1/4” metal grommet, use a screw to attach tape to the dowel. You now have a 2 buck wind flag that rotates. Got some around here someplace.

Last week a buddy and I were out at the range shooting some 800 and 1,000 targets.
I was shooting my prone rifle ( irons, and sling) in 6mmBR, and he was shooting a braked up 300 mag, a Ruger RPR with a bipod and a brake that looks like it belongs on a Sherman tank.
Wind was not too bad, about 2MOA but gusting, and we both posted some pretty good 10 shot scores.
Two days ago we went out again and on the 800 meter target he had to dial in a full 8 MOA of left windage to get onto the target.
Yesterday, we had close to 5MOA of straight head wind.
It is never the same and very rarely constant at our range.
You can see 2MOA at 200 meters on the flag, and at 500 , 2MOA, and be 2MOA in the opposite direction at 300 meters!
Learning how to decipher a wind call is a never ending story for me ! LOL
Cat

Ok, I am a little dense. Does the grommet drop over the sharpened dowel? What is the screw for

What are the best distances to place wind flags. In front of the bench, target, mid point?

Pointy end helps insertion to the ground. Screw holds the tail on the flat end. If you don’t tighten completely the tail can rotate around the screw.

Usually I set a flag @ 25, 50, 75 then 95. If lazy just 50 and 95 when working @ 100
200 it’s 50, 100, 150 and 190. But also use a bench top flag and BT wind meter @25 ft.

Thank you!

If you want, you can make adjustable stands out of old modified sheet music stands.

There's a half dozen of these here that get used a lot at my local range....picked them up used for about $8 ea. Since our target frames at 200 are higher than the 100 (you shoot over the top of the 100 yd. target frames), I extended the main tube on 3 of them. For the pivot pin, I used a 1/4-20 coupling nut and drilled out one side of the threads until it fit over the shaft and then JB Welded it on. For the pivot pin, it's just a long 1/4-20 bolt with a non threaded area on the shank. Cut the head off, polish it up and you're good to go. Some I've rounded off and some have been left flat. If the flag is balanced, it doesn't make much difference.

Ran into that issue at a couple ranges especially when getting out to 300. So my fix, since the adjustable extensions on Keeney or most others come out of the main stand tube I took a 6–12 foot paint roller extension, cut the threads off square. Drilled that end a little undersize so I could make the final fit tight. Crude but



With Keeney inserted



Which then puts my large Keeney flags up to 13 feet. Very stable once anchored meaning they wouldn’t sway in the wind like some of the more popular and expensive poles going that high




Had the same for Grahams but they went bye bye.

I know how you feel! We had a stiff 12mph fishtailing headwind last Thursday at my 1000 yard Palma practice. Hard to keep up some days...

Pretty salty shooting in those conditions! -Al

Drives a guy batty at times!
Last summer a guy was watching me shoot at 1,000 with my 308.I was doing fairly well with it when he pipes up" You need to hold over about 8" to the left"
WTH??!! I looked up and said " You wanna strap into this rig and SHOW ME how t hold over 8 inches with these irons?" LOL
Cat

If it was easy, everyone would be doing it.

Yup, one of my Mentors ( Paul Reibin) mentioned to me once when we were talking about a crazy wind day.
" Yes Sir, you don't need a crowbar to separate the boys from the girls when the wind starts blowing!" LOL
When guys complain about not being able to shoot well in the wind I simply tell them to wait around a bit, its sure to change!
Cat

A couple years ago I was playing at 600 yards with my 6br. Shooting out of my garage . I shot a group and drove down to check it out. It was about where I expected with the 5 mph cross wind. Looked at my wind sock to shoot another group and kinda scratched my head a little and shot.
I shot the group and went to check. Sure enough in 5 minutes time the wind had switched 90 degrees. Strange stuff happens here in ND. Edk

One old joke suggests that's because Montana blows and Minnesota sucks--and vice versa.

If the wind ever stopped blowing across Southern Alberta and Saskatchewan all the cows would fall over! LOL
Cat

Here, the only thing stopping the wind is a barbed wire fence on the Montana/Wyoming border. And it's got a couple of broken strands. -Al

Old joke, If you don’t like the weather in Nebraska wait 15 minutes and it will change.

Al, thanks for the good information. Wow, now I feel inadequate with my engineer tape and sticks. I think I'll just go over to the Hunter's Campfire sub-forum and tell someone else how much they suck and then feel better about myself.

Damn sorry you feel that way, but question is did your tape and sticks cost 70 to a 110 bucks per?

I was being sarcastic as they suffice to me. I am simply impressed with Al's setup.

I thought hard about not posting this but here it goes.

The primary focus here is for hunting rifle stuff with accuracy sufficient for those needs. Given the group sizes those styles of rifles are capable of, many of the wind induced issues get lost in the overall size of the groups. But that doesn't mean it's not there...it's just harder to see and sort out.

That's why a very accurate rifle is an excellent tool by which to really learn what's going on with the wind.

These four groups were fired on the same day over the span of about 20 minutes. The two top groups are 5 shot groups fired with my 30BR 13.5 lb. NBRSA/IBS legal Heavy Varmint gun. Load was identical for all groups. Bullets were my 117's. POA for all groups was the center dot.

-The top two groups were fired with the flags at 3:00 and with careful attention paid to the wind speed.

-The bottom two groups were fired with the flags at exactly the same position as the top two groups but the wind speed changes were purposely ignored. This is commonly done to see how a load reacts in the wind.

-On the bottom (lt) group, the 'push' was wasn't as dramatic as the wind speeds were starting to slack off....you can you see this as the group forms more to the center, which is to be expected. It's also lower.

Al,

What was the distance at which those targets were shot?

Those were at 100 yds. -Al

So, let's take this to the next step for those that think wind flags are something only high end target rifles need. Or that the only thing I work with is BR rifles...which couldn't be further from the truth. The majority of what I work with is warmed over factory stuff with possibly a good aftermarket barrel and well.done bedding and scope mounting.

This is my Interarms Mini Mark X in 223. The chamber is huge, the throat so long that the bullet doesn't get a sniff of the rifling and the inside of the barrel looks like 5 miles of bad railroad track. But after a lot of work, it will shoot solid 5 shot 1/2" groups with 748 and a Nosler 40 gr. BTip in any sort of reasonable conditions:



This 3 shot target was shot at 100 yds. with that gun and load. Again, the flags angle for each shot was the same but the wind speed was purposely ignored. Winds were somewhat sporty on the bottom end and fairly nautical on the high side. Clearly, the load is solid as there's almost no vertical. The amount of deflection is what any good ballistics program will tell you it should be with the muzzle velocity and the B.C. of the bullet. Clearly, the wind is moving the bullet exactly how much it should:


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Next, let's look at something in between a well tuned BR rig that can shoot big .0's and little .1's and a light barrelled .5" gun.

This is my 22BR built on a Kelbly Atlas 700 foot print action. Chamber is a no neck turn, barrel is a Remington Sendero contour Kreiger. In short, it's an extremely accurate 'dog gun...which is what it was built for. It's a reliable .2" gun for 5 shot groups in any sort of decent conditions.



Both of these were shot on the same day with the same exact load. Again, windflag position was the same for both groups and the speed was purposely ignored for the group testing the L-R 'push'. I gave the scope some vertical clicks to better quarter the black border of the target for the 'push test'. And once again...not surprisingly ...the bullet deflection is exactly what the math says it should be.





Good shootin' -Al

Al,

Excellent illustration of the effect of wind on bullets!

One thing I have noticed for many years is that many--if not most--rifles shooters apparently believe that heavier bullets are deflected less in wind than lighter bullets, regardless of other factors. I mentioned this in an article on .17-caliber rifle cartridges I recently submitted to the Gun Digest annual: Back when the .17 Hornady Magnum Rimfire was first introduced, many local varmint-shooter "theorists" proclaimed that its little bullets would drift "too much" in the wind--certainly more than a .22 Rimfire Magnum's. Which was not true, because the .17's bullets not only started out faster but had higher ballistic coefficients--the two factors that affect wind-drift--than any .22 Magnum ammo.

Was also on a deer/pig hunt in Texas a few years ago with a bunch of other writers. The main purpose was to test a new bolt-action hunting rifle, and the firearms company had brought around a dozen, half chambered in .243 Winchester and the other half in .308 Winchester. We sighted 'em all in on a 100-yard range, which of course didn't have any wind-flags-- and also of course some bullets drifted a little in the mild but gusty breeze. One of us commented on this, and the head guide for the ranch (who was overseeing the sight-in) firmly proclaimed that while .243 bullets drifted in the wind, .308 bullets did not.

The factory loads used in the rifles were from the same manufacturer, the .243s with 100-grain spitzers and the .308s with 150-grain spitzers. The ballistic coefficients AND muzzle velocities were both very close, so drift would be almost identical. But this guy was absolutely certain the 150 .30s wouldn't drift at all, and the 100-grain .243s would....

AL -

Who makes decent 30 cal. Bullets for BR ?

I’ve been using TommE’s for my Creed & soon to be Dasher, but given lead times I need to order some 30’s and he doesn’t make them.

My Bat action is running late…. ARGH… or I’d be building my Dasher already.. all the parts are sitting there - it’s killing me every time I walk by them.

Mike

Thank you, John....appreciate it.

The big case .17's I was using for pelt hunting fox in the early '90's are the very cartridges that caused me to question and dig into the truth of things. What I was seeing on target and in the field just didn't jive with the commonly circulated 'truths' that had just been regurgitated over the years.

Once I figured out that exterior ballistics is really simple (B.C. and velocity), everything got a lot easier. It's unfortunate than many of the 'regurg'd' stuff hasn't had the proverbial stake driven through the heart.

I'm still waiting for those modern bullets (whatever those are) that come with a little slip of paper in the box saying 'Notice: These bullets are exempt from the laws of Quantum Physics'. That the thing that should be the first to consider is the last thing to accept is a peek into the strange world of the human psyche.


Good shootin' -Al

https://bibullets.com/products/

I kind of figured he was using Robinett’s.

But wanted to check

No....I make my own .30s on the 1.00 and .925 J4 jackets. Thats what 'Nyhus 117' means on the targets. Randy is the guy that taught me to make bullets. His bullets remain the Gold Standard. As well, his turning advice is invaluable for those willing to learn. -Al

Hmm….

I saw Nyhus 117 up there on your targets… and should have connected the dots.

So far I haven’t gone the bullet making path, but …

Didn’t say Al, you asked who made a decent 30 cal. Well Randy makes a really decent bullet.

Randy and I are best friends.. if you're doing a 30BR, you should click on this link. There might be a couple familiar names there, too. -Al

https://www.accurateshooter.com/cartridge-guides/30br/

Plus, Randy's are for sale.

deleted

I had the pleasure of talking to Randy a few years ago about some 30BR questions I had. Let me put it this way, I learned more in an hour talking to him than a year of research on the internet . An unbelievable wealth of knowledge!

Did you arrive at your group with powder charge only? I don't care for flat lines with powder charge. A flat line is an indicator of a load that is too hot! It might shoot tight sometimes but will be temperamental. Back it down just a touch until you see a triangle group and than seat the bullet deeper in 3 thou increments until it tightens up to all the bullets touching!

I'm assuming you've repeated the group a number of times?

Trystan

LOL.. that thread is part of the reason I went with a 332 neck vs. 331.. (the shoulder / groove issue)

That and Randy’s thread about how he was modifying and what he recommended on accurate about the 30BR reamers..
That makes the 6th time I’ve read it…. And yeah some names there sound familiar !!

As a side note I had talked to Clay about learning how he made his bullets but life got in the way so I had to put that on the back burner.


BTW - I was also looking into making a more up to date bullet tester like Vern Juenke had made decades ago…
I’m an electrical engineer and have designed such stuff for control system design for assembly lines….
I had gotten as far as working with NDT (non-destructive-testing) sensor makers to see what would be best for the application, but again… life got in the way.

I may follow through with that if I get enough time…. The “bullet doctor” site has some of the prints for making one, but at the end of the day you either use Eddy Current testing, or you use Time Domain Reflection technology…. I was thinking about doing both in on system… The sensors placement is a really bugger depending on the flaw you are looking for - This is what I originally wanted to have a sit down with Clay Spensor on…

Best,
Mike

Here's another example of using wind flags to do load work on a light barrelled hunting gun.

The gun is what I call my 'Leftovers Project'. It's a '74 vintage 700 243W barrelled action that had taken up residence in the back of the gun safe for years. I came into a herky but useable LVSF stock and rehabbed it for the project.



Here's the initial load work with 760. It starts out pretty loose but as the powder charge goes up, you can see the characteristics change. If flags hadn't been used, it would have been easy to just shoot a few at the lower end and quickly come to the wrong conclusion that it didn't like 760. But by using flags, you know that the wind speed/direction component isn't what's driving the 'on target' performance. The powder charge is.

So it becomes relatively easy to just keep going up and let the gun tell you if it likes the powder or not. By 44.5, things were looking up and at 45.0 things really started to settle down. A few days later, I went back out and starting at 44.5, continued up to 46.5, where it started to get loose again. Since this gets used in temps from 20 degrees to 80+ (it was low 50's that day), I backed it down to 45.0 and reverified with four 5 shot groups that averaged .415.



Something else to observe on this is one more Urban Legend that should be killed off. POI/groups do not always move up as the powder charge increases. Barrels shake around in response to the vibration signal of the powder (all are different) and the force inparted to the lands/grooves by the amount of contact surface of that particular bullet. Heavier barrels exhibit less of this due to the fact that the physical weight of the barrel (consider it a lever) is more resistant to movement by those forces.

At 44.5 and continuing on up, the groups did start to climb higher. That's because the muzzle of the barrel is in what's referred to as the 'dwell cycle' of it's eliptical motion caused by the forces we just talked about. At the top and bottom of the dwell cycle, there is a pronounced slowing of muzzle movement as it transitions to the next up or down cycle. The muzzle being in that 'dwell area' is what we're really seeing with a nice load that shoots steady over a range of powder weights. If you're not at the 'dwell', the muzzle is more rapidly moving either up or down.....loads get fussy and inconsistent.

Here's what it looks like...the 'dwell' is the 'node' area:



Wind flags are the single biggest tool for allowing us to not only see what's happening but also understand what we're seeing.

Good shootin' -Al

This is an excellent wind tutorial. It also shows a flag style that would be easy for a DIY to make.

Good shootin' -Al

Nice! I imagine velocity and BC help mitigate the effects that the narrator uncovered since they were using air rifles?

So does a bull barrel significantly tighten the dwell and make the node "larger"?

I have had Smallbore shooters tell me that for every 5 clicks of windage they add or subtract a click of elevation.

While it is not as as apparent with high power bullets as the .22s in the video, you do start to see the effects at 1000 when you have several minutes of wind on the gun. By the time I'm at 7 or 8 minutes with my .308 I'm in danger of losing points out the top or bottom without a correction, of course by that point I am so pre occupied with the flags I'm not very proactive and get caught.

'Morning. To start with, none of this was "uncovered". These effects are well known and have been observed for decades. What this did so well was to show how well the predicted result (exterior ballistics) matched up with the actual result (real shooting). And while the numbers will change based on the exterior ballistics (B.C. and velocity being the primary drivers), the pattern will always remain the same regardless of the cartridge used.

And while some of this has little to do with the shooter/hunter doing load work, it's pretty easy to see the wrong turns and dead ends shooters get sucked into taking...lacking some sort of even the most basic wind indicators.


Barrel mass (weight) and stiffness shorten the amplitude (high/low peaks). This has the effect of extending the dwell time. Interestingly, barrel contour as relates to stiffness is not always what it appears to be.

Good shootin' -Al

Should have said demonstrates rather than uncovers.

I knew what 'ya meant. Just didn't want it misunderstood for anyone else that may be lookin'.

Good shootin' -Al

This thread, with the examples Al provided, has been an example of the educational value that brought me to this forum as a member originally. Advice and knowledge from those that regularly shoot and compete can save the rest of us a lot of frustration and components.

Thanks

I got my wind flags yesterday.

My reason for contributing to this thread was to help shooters and hunters understand and use wind indicators to maximize their results while minimizing time and components being wasted.

Cutting through all the details, there's truly only three things a shooter new to using using 'flags' (generic term) really needs to do:

1. Use at least two at 100 yards. Assuming a flat-ish range, one at 10 yds. and one at 60 yds. works. If the range has odd features (berms, etc), watch how the flags react when you move them around and place them accordingly.

2. When shooting your group, make sure the flags are angled the same for each shot.

3. You need some sort of 'tail' to indicate wind speed. Make sure this is the same for each shot.

And that's it.

If you do these things (#'s 2&3 can actually be condensed together), you'll get 90% of the way there. And you'll be 100% ahead of where you were without using flags.

I'd like to add that wind socks make excellent wind indicators. If you search on ebay under 'Aviation Wind Socks', look for the 80CM/31" ones..... $20 will get you a couple.

Good shootin' -Al

This afternoon at the range i could have used one of those Wyoming wind socks.

Might add Al if using the 10 and 60 set, if you have a spare tripod or adapt a music stand place a Bluetooth omnidirectional wind meter at the 10 then watch the flag and wind speed for awhile. While it won’t show direction it will give a good idea of tail position compared to wind speed. I called it calibrating the tail.

I would add that a piece of flagging tape, tacked to the top of a piece of 1" dowel, works well enough as a wind-flag that it beats the hell out of not using any flags at all. Have tested this quite a bit against more sophisticated flags.

The big problem is getting the dowel to stand up. Have sharpened the "bottom" end and tapped them into the ground on "softer" ranges, but unless the wind's really blowing a piece of thin plywood nailed to the bottom can also work as a stand.

For testing rimfires I use a target with multiple aiming points, and mark each with a number. I shoot at target #1 in X wind condition, target #2 in Y condition, etc. This saves considerable time, and works very well because rimfire barrels don't heat up like centerfires.

Take a North East shooter and put him in the Midwest and there is an adjustment period..

I know, I was one..

😁


Dang it MD you just had to point out the flaw didn’t you. 😁 Just an example of cheap and easy.
Personally I used that as a permanent set on my home range when I had one. Will point out that even some of the fancier expensive poles with spikes on the bottom had issues anchoring in the hard Nebraska clay when you had to extend them over the 100 yard berm when shooting at 200 and a couple of ranges over the 200 berm when shooting at 300. There were time when I would carry a small hammer with me down range to pound em in. Loaned it to others at times.

A couple 1/2" sections of rebar 3 1/2 ft long with flagging tape tied on is what I use. And I do carry a hammer to drive them in the ground......

Stopped in one of the local shops that sell instruments to schools. There was a box full of used music stands for $6.50 each

Might as well have some 'donor' stands to go with the next batch of 'donor' flags.

Good shootin' -Al

...

Well Al, I have some Delrin rod on the way to make some flags and stands but it’s been pushed back till I am done fighting hard carbon fouling in the throat of a Swift. It’s tough stuff.

I believe this is the answer the gentleman was looking for - but the wind flag information is priceless.

Multiple examples to this question are found on pages 8-9.

Good shootin' -Al

I love reading threads like this. They remind me how much I have to learn.