The Army is planning a 500% increase in artillery shell production, from 15,000 a month to 70,000, according to Army acquisition chief Doug Bush. CNN, Feb. '23.

Does anybody know what type of powder these shells use, and where it is produced today? Does it compete with the handloaders' market?

I had a handloading buddy who swore the H4350 he used for years came from kegs of it surplused after WWII when the USN demand dropped for their big guns.

Belted magnums?

JK

A little levity.

All NC propellant is produced at St Mark's.

It does indirectly compete with the civilian supply.

Slower burning than the avg hand loader uses. Will interfere more with loaders of 50 BMG. But will hurt all of us if they pay more attention to it and less to commercial market which is likely.

Nope, you're thinking of the old 4831 that was surplused after WWII use in 20mm guns. Bruce Hodgdon started his business by buying and selling many tons of it. When the supply ran out 20+ years later he was forced into having it made fresh, and here we are 50+ years later still using it.

Yep,I still have the steel canister with label on it that was 50 pounds. I think it was 42 cents a pound

Years ago I bought in in paper bags for $3.00 per pound.

I got my start in reloading at the LGS when I was 15 years old, circa 1968. The old curmudgeon put me to work a couple evenings a week at his side line loading bench. SOP was to dip the sized/primed .30-06 case in a big drum of surplus 4831, strike the powder off level at the case mouth with a butter knife, and crunch a cheap 150 grain bullet on top of it. We sold them for around $3/box as I recall. The idea was that you couldn't get enough of that 4831 into an '06 case to get in trouble. Word got around amongst the local hunters that our loads were "powerful and accurate" so there was a steady stream of guys dropping off their empties. (Seems like everybody had at least one .30-06 back then.) The months before deer season kept me pretty busy. Of course I rarely took a paycheck, as it was, because I was constantly in debt to the shop for my own primers, powder, .22 ammo, and gun layaways....

I think we got $1/pound retail for the powder. I weighed out many a pound into paper bags. I can still see those kegs stacked up in the store room, with old Red chain smoking Lucky Strikes a few feet away. It was a different world.

Great story!

Radford Army Ammunition Plant manufactures ammunition and artillery propellants and solid fuel rocket grains. Currently operated by BAE Systems.

Artillery propellants are not just nitrocellulose, they can be double and triple based.

I had a friend whose whole family hunted together, and loaded together. There was granddad, his two sons, and four grandsons. That is how they loaded their 270's, dip a case full of 4831 and seat a 150. Just like gnoahhh and his 30-06 loading. They always filled their tags.

As to the point of the OP, what I would wonder if the increased military demand would impact commercial powder availability through increased demand for the base starting powder recipe ingredients, like cellulose, etc.

I've heard that more than once from similar old timers.


Okie John

In another life. I was checking lot numbers on 20mm TP. I noticed that some of the lot numbers ended with BLC(2) and another time ended with H335. I never thought to check the API or other types.

War is going to impact everything arms related.

Stuff some 220 gr bullets in one and that doesn't hold true. OK for 150, 165, and 172gr though.

I was shooting competition back in the 60's and early 70's. The dip and seat is what I used with 3 cent bullets from DCM. 600 yards I used Sierra 172 GR Match King, but weighed the powder.

I am still using 4831 that I purchased in in 1968 for $1.50 a pound. I bought 3 gallons of it and still have a gallon left. It still smells sweet and shoots good. It was originally used in 20mm ammunition for the WWII Oerlikon antiaircraft gun which was used on hundreds of US Navy ships and small craft.

Interesting responses from all of you. I'd have to give my buddy some schidt for his original story, if he wasn't pushing up daisies already.

Here's another. I grew up in Kansas City and was fortunate to be around Bruce Hodgdon where we shot. He was still getting a lot of demilled powder from .gov at the time. There was a new powder that he was trying to get noticed by the reloading community, so he made it available to some of the local BR shooters. I bought 100 pounds of H 335 from him. At that time they distributed out of their building in Shawnee Mission Kansas so I went across town to pick it up. I pulled up and there sat my powder in 2 cardboard boxes with black trash bags inside. 50 pounds of powder in each, at the earth shattering price of $1 per pound. I shot 25 or 30 pounds of it through the BR rifles and the rest of it at P-dogs. That was the good old days.

I have H-4831 I bought in the early ‘60’s. And it was surplus back then, so I don’t know how old it is. It came in paper bags in a divided cardboard box. Those bags eventually deteriorated; I had to transfer the powder into empty powder bottles, remarked with a magic marker. It smells good, has no brown dust and shoots great.

Google Jeff Bartlett. He sells surplus powders and describes them. I use his 872 in my 26 Nosler. It’s pull down 20 mm cannon powder and performs like H-869, but much cheaper.

So, the notion that 4350 has any relationship with artillery ammo production, probably not feasible, ‘06 ammo, maybe.

DF

Geez, these threads go on and on....

There wasn't any Hodgdon "H4350" until the 1990s, and the original 4350, developed by what was then DuPont as IMR (Improved Military Rifle) was officially introduced for public sale in 1940--though according to Phil Sharpe's classic book Complete Guide to Handloading could be purchased in 1939 by personally appearing at the DuPont factory in Delaware. (Imagine that happening today!) It wasn't developed for anything other than sporting cartridges, but probably led to the original H4831, the somewhat slower-burning 20mm cannon powder Bruce Hodgdon started selling after the war.

I still have some of the original H4831 mil-surp powder, both in paper bags and in a waxed-cardboard canister, and it still works about like it supposedly did when Hodgdon first started selling it. Burned a BUNCH of it over the years, partly because it was widely available when I started handloading a long time ago, and partly because an older gun-writer friend (even older than I am now!) still had about 10 pounds left when he quit handloading in the 1980s--and gave it to me.

But the original mil-surp powder varied somewhat from lot to lot--and unlike today's powders for handloaders, was NOT blended with other lots so the burn-rate would be more consistent. Know this from testing various batches over the decades.

Seems to me that old vintage H-4831 may be slightly slower burning than current H-4831.

DF

It depends on the lot of "original" H4831--and also the particular batch of "new" H4831.

Ran a test of both for the Chapter 10 in GUN GACK II on "Different Batches of the 'Same' Powder."

In my O'Connor .270 M70 Featherweight a 61.0 charge of current H4831SC and the 130-grain Hornady Interlock Spire Point got 3029 fps, and 61.0 of one of my batches of mil-surp H4831 got 3118 fps. This was on the same day, over the same chronograph, with enough time between for the barrel to cool off.

I have GG II, will check it out.

DF

Wasn't the original surplus powder initially called "4350 Data Powder" because you could safely use 4350 data with it? When did they actually start calling it 4831?

If my memory is correct 4831 wasn't the only surplus powder Hodgdon sold. I remember buying 4895 too in the early '60s.

When Hodgdon started selling newly manufactured H4831 I wrote a letter to Hodgdon (the company, not the man) about something on a yellow legal pad page. I received my handwritten reply on the bottom of the same page, and it was signed Bruce Hodgdon. I came across that letter in the recent past so I still have it somewhere.

the only problem i see with the Army increasing ammo production by 500 % is handloaders like myself will see more shortages in what powders we use and probably brass ,primers and bullets too?? so here we go again with higher prices , low inventories of reloading supplies !

It’s been posted several times so the short answer is yes, the basic ingredients of our smokeless powder competes with all kinds of military propellants including rocket propellants.

Enduron powder was preempted by military production, for example.

Ha, read the other day where they are shooting off more ammo in a day than can be produced in 2 1/2 to 3 months. Last estimate was 5-7 years to replenish. Oh and this is why I have 75,000 22 LR hanging around.

I bought a bunch of H335 surplus years ago. Instructions came with it to use 3031 data

I bought my share of surplus 4831. Was sold by the coffee can. Was a 1.00 a can. You had to furnish the can. 1960’s.
Hasbeen

I don't know what it is exactly, but over 50 yrs ago, in Artillery, I helped "burn" thousands of rounds of it, both through "the tube" and burn up the excess after training. To me it looked like Rabbit Pellets you buy at the feeds tore. Big ol' kernels. From 71 to 73, Germany, and from 75-76 (Ft Hood) every Arty round we shot had either a 1944-45 Date on it. God only knows how many they have stockpiled,. So when they crank them out...they must really take advantage of it!!

If the powder companies are sending powder to the military then I'd say it would have to effect civilian powders production and distribution. The factories only have so much equipment and floor space. The ADI plant here in Australia is not overly large and I can't see them producing both military and civilian powders concurrently. Why would they? All production will be going for military ammunition.

Many 'experts' are predicting a war with China and the Ukraine war has depleted the world's ammo supplies. More ammo has to be made and it all needs powder. I can't see governments really caring about home handloaders hobbies when the world is going to sh_t.

I bought another kilo of 2206H and 2208 (H4895 and Varget) but might get some more while I can. I also just bought a new Loop fly rod and two Sage reels so that's my Plan B when all the powder is gone. But realistically, I have enough powder (and other components) to last me for years at my current usage rate.

But my mates don't.