Got the itch for a .223. Things have changed since I last owned one ~15 years ago. There is a multitude of twists now available to stabilize heavier bullets. I am curious about stabilizing 50-55gr bullets in a 1:8 twist. Is 1:8 too much? Do fragile bullets come apart? or is all good and it opens up some options for heavier 60+gr bullets to shoot longer range? Or, just stick with the old 1:12 and forget the heavier bullets. FWIW: Long shots will be 5-600 yards, typical distances ~300.

You will get a wide range of responses.

My thought is- if you are never going to shoot a 75, or even up to a 95 grain bullet, why get the twist needed for those?

SX and TNT (at least the 50 grain version) most likely will not work in a 1 in 8 if driven full speed. 55 TNT may work. Other varmint HP bullets will be fine in it.

For many years, 1 in 14 was a typical twist rate in 223, and it did well with what it was designed for.

For 40-55 grain bullets, accuracy is generally better in slower twists, but there are exceptions. However, pressures are less and velocities can be higher in slower twists.

I've shot a lot of 55 grain bullets through 1:8 twist barrels and accuracy seems fine. Most of my shooting is with 55-77 grain bullets. If you are interested in mostly shooting 40-55 grain bullets maybe a slower twist barrel would be better, but I've had no problems with the 1:8's.

I have 7, 8, and 9 twist .223's. I find 8 twist to be a pretty good compromise. I usually shoot 55 - 65 grain bullets in all. I don't quite get the accuracy I'd like with 69 grain SMK's in my 9 twist gun, but I'm not ready to say it's the twist, I haven't really worked with those bullets in the rifle so much. I've found no problem at all shooting 55's in my 7 and 8 twist rifles. I've never shot anything lighter in .223.

My current .223, a Browning/Miroku Low Wall, has a 1-12 twist and it suits my sensibilities which hover in the 40-55 grain range. Short 60's do ok in it too, but they only return MOA accuracy when it does 1/2MOA with 40 grain Bergers and 52 grain Matchkings. Just me, and my rifle - we have no venues for looong range shooting so the lighter bullets suit us fine.

A bigger thing to keep in mind is the free bore length of the chamber. For a 7-8 twist set up to the longer bullets, the throat length will be excessively long for best accuracy with the shorter bullets.

And to do a 7-8 twist with a short throat for the shorter bullets is double backwards.

It all depends on what you want the gun to do. If you're not interested in lobbing heavies out there a long way, the 12 twists with about .020 freebore length do a great job.

My 2 cents worth....-Al

Al,

Can you explain the above quote? Long, sleek bullets have an ogive that is closer to the case mouth compared to short, blunt bullets. Long bullets typically require a shorter throat than short bullets. If anything, a rifle throated to long, sleek bullets would necessitate light, blunt bullets to be seated quite deep in the case neck to avoid a jam into the lands.

There is no one answer and I think that is understood. I don't get the reason for fast twist in the 223 as it isn't a long range cartridge and is best suited to the 40-50 grain bullets at modest ranges of 350 yards and under.

I have at least 6 223s and I just shoot 40 grain bullets in them and use it for a varmint cartridge. I do have 2 that are fast twist and I need to shoot 55 grain VMax bullets in them to get any accuracy with them.

The 223 could be the best all around varmint cartridge with the 40 grain bullets at 3600 FPS. This is an easy gun to shoot and is capable of great accuracy and will blow a prairie do into the air quite easily.

I would say that if you want heavier 22 caliber bullets, go to the 22-250 sized cartridges...

It has been my experience that longer bullets require longer throats, not shorter.

Can't agree with you there, but that's just me.

My .223 is a Savage Model 10FP medium heavy barrel with. 1/9” twist. It shoots 5 shots you can cover with a dime at 100 yards with Black Hills 68 grain OTM. That’s about as heavy as I shoot from a .223.

Ron

Of course, the descriptors "shorter" and "longer" are too vague to make any definitive statements. I agree that the shortest bullets made in a given caliber will require a shorter throat than the longest bullets made in that caliber, assuming similar seating depth in the case neck. Let's say that the ideal setup includes two assumptions: first, that the magazine doesn't limit OAL within practical limits. Second, that the ideal seating of the bullet is for the base of the bullet body to be seated just above the shoulder-neck junction of the case. Given two bullets of equal weight, the longer, sleeker bullet will require a faster twist rate and a shorter throat than the short, blunt bullet. If we drop enough weight and length from the short bullet (or change its shape enough), I agree that there is a point at which the longer bullet will require a longer throat than the short bullet.

Generally speaking, it's often the case that for long bullets to fit within magazine constraints, they have to be seated deeply and contact the lands at a relatively short BTO length.

My F-T/R .308 has a 0.170" throat for shooting 200gr Bergers. A PALMA reamer might be around 0.050". If I recall correctly, most chambers will be in the 0.085" range.

What's your cartridge overall length?

Still working on what it will end up at, but 3.050" with a 200.20x.

The reason I ask is that's part of the throating vs bullet equation too. I believe F class requires single loading, right?

For many of my purposes I'm constrained by magazine length. In 308, if I load 175 grain VLD Bergers and 150 grain Sierra Pro Hunters to suit the magazine, then the shorter, lighter Sierras will be closer to the rifling.

F-Class is single loading, per rules. You want to keep those long bullets in the neck above the donut, thus the strange free bores. Your standard rifle chamber might be half the free bore as well. 50 thou shorter for the round, plus 85 thou shorter free-bore.

Whatever the freebore length is, in the example I cited where magazine length is the driver the shorter, lighter Sierra remains closer to the lands.

I wish commercial 308's were throated shorter. Seated to 2.8" I'm jumping 168 gr Match Kings nearly 1/8" in a couple.

Searching around does not turn up many 1:12 .223 Rems anymore. Most everything seems to be 1:8. Guess the long range trend has taken over small bore also.

Since I will never shoot anything above a 55 grain bullet I don’t worry about twist. If I were running turrets an shooting long I might would reconsider.


GreggH

If the California crazyness of non-lead bullets ever happens in your area you may run into some stability issues. I had a 1 in 14 barrel on an older M700 and couldn't stabilize any Barnes but 40gr Varmint Grenades. Rebarreled it to 1 in 8.
This is a pic of 53grTSX fired from about 30ft.

In my current 223 which is a Tikka CTR, it has shot about everything I have put through it real well. Even the old box of Federal 40 BT's shot amazing. It mainly lives off the 77 TMK's but I'd have 0 qualms about buying one and shooting regular old 40-55's through it either if I didn't wanna shoot longer stuff.

Eileen and I have three .223s--though one is the .223 Bushmaster XM15-E2S skinny-barreled carbine I bought in 2008, which has a 5.56 NATO throat and a 1-9 twist barrel. It has grouped bullet from 40-grain Ballistic Tips to various 75-80 grainers well inside an inch at 100 yards.

The other two are a Remington 700 laminated-stock varmint rifle with a heavy 26" barrel, purchased new around 2000. It has the typical 1-14" twis, and when new would put five 50-grain Nosler Ballistic Tips in .25" at 100 yards. Several thousand rounds later it will still put five of just about any factory load with lead-cores bullets up to 60 grains into 3/4 inch, but its standard varmint load uses TAC and any 50-grain plastic tip--which it still groups under 1/2".

The third is a Ruger American Predator with a 1-8 twist, which groups 80+ grain bullets very well--but also groups 50-55 grain bullets under an inch.

Have seen similar results from various other .223s over the years with various twist, but these three are the rifles I know best.

For sure. I did find the 50 grain TTSX will shoot in a 1 in 14" decent. Probably would do best in a 1 in 12 or faster though.
Barnes twist recommendations are usually pretty spot on, and anything slower than what they say is a gamble at best.

And for even more detail, the stability calculator from Berger can be used for most bullets.

I would make a decision how far you want to shoot first, and what you want to shoot at, and go from there. The bullets I like shooting in .223 will not stand up to a fast twist. These are the 45 grain Hornady hornet, 50 grain TNT, and 50 grain SX. Some of the polymer tipped bullets will handle the RPM of a fast twist fine and if they suit you, by all means, go for it. I'll stick with 1-12" or 1-14" if I only have a single .223. I find the whole family of cartridges best inside 250 yards even if they can be stretched further. At 300 and 600 there are much better choices, for example, a .22 Creedmoor or .22-250 AI. In those cases, go with the fast twist and long, high BC bullets. IMHO we've collectively gotten so wrapped around the axle over long range that we've forgotten that there are a lot more short and medium range shots to be taken than there are long range. We're overlooking the workhorse setups that are most practical for most people most of the time in favor of high performance stuff that nobody needs for most of their uses. Like .. hauling gravel in a corvette.

Tom

If you notice most everyone who has tried faster twists prefer them and report the lighter bullets still work fine.

Most of the naysayers are giving opinions mostly based on speculation.

That's a lot of jump, but hey, Matchkings can usually take it. It seems odd to me that many are throated like they are being the round was designed commercially to fit the old short action pre-64 Mod 70s.

Ha! Keep it to ourselves. Keeps the buy outs on stuff we want easier!

I had a 7 twist AR-15 that did "overstabilize" at least one shorter 50gr bullet.

Could have been a flaw in the bore but I did not see any. And I guess that lot of bullets could have been messed up somehow.

But I did experience the bullets rapidly disassembling themselves and spraying shrapnel on my targets.

With 12 and 9 twists, never had issues.

I would prefer the fastest twist I can get that is still practical for whatever I am doing, of course. I have two 9 twist 223s now and no complaints.

What was the 50 that blew up?

Federal hp, bought factory loads cheap for the brass

Thanks MJ.

1-8 should do anything you want to do with ease.

Best piece of logic I’ve seen here in a long time. Solid post T O M.

If you wanted to shoot the longer/heavier bullets with the longer OAL they require... Wouldn't the 224 Valkyrie's shorter case be the better way to go ?... Looks like bolt actions chambered for that cartridge are rarer than hens teeth...

definitely support Kaleb's posting here....very few issues seen with MOST smaller 22 caliber bullets..

I know DON'T try Hornady's SPSX bullets in a fast twist barrel, unless you back off the velocity substantially...

However on a real foggy day, it is kinda of fun to shoot an SPSX at a max velocity out of a 223 or 22.250..
Right out of the barrel you see the bullet come apart, sending shrapnel in all directions...

No one who has ever used a decent fast twist 22, no matter what chambering would ever go back, but the fudd runs deep on the fire, especially if they have no experience with such.

As the OP mentions going out to 500-600yds at times, I’d certainly lean on a 1/8” twist. While a 75gr bullet at 2900fps is not blistering fast, it’s made up a lot of ground against a good 50gr offering by the time you reach 300yds and it excels past that range. The trajectory of a 75 at that velocity also mimics that of many standard big game rounds. Handy for practice.

If you notice most everyone who has tried faster twists prefer them and report the lighter bullets still work fine.

Most of the naysayers are giving opinions mostly based on speculation.[/quote]

I’m a slow twist guy in the 223. My shots are are sub 300 yards, most are far less than that. I I shoot mostly 40 grain at PDs and 50s at coyotes. I have zero interest in lobbing 70 plus grain bullets in a 22 center fire. So I’ll stick to slow twist, you can use whatever twist and bullet length you prefer.

Unless you intend to shoot the extra fragile light bullets, the fast twist
will work for anything. (Should. Guns being female concerning predictability)

Fast twist limits soft/light bullets.
Slow twist limits you to medium weights and/or stubby bullets.
1/9 is a compromise that might let you go down, but still limits the longer ones.

This isn't complicated.
It's mechanics, and everything is a compromise.


Figure out what you want, what you might want.

That
Is
The
Question.

No one else can know the answer.

Once you know what you want it to do, there is no decision to make concerning
twist. It's been pretty determined.

Of course this is a generalization, but I will tell you from experience and 10’s of thousands of rounds through various 223 rifles I can’t agree. I have 2 fast twist firearms, a Sako 85 varmint and a Wilson Combat AR. Neither will shoot 40 or 50 grain bullets worth a darn. For some reason that all changes with a 55 grain VMax. So I can tell you there are 2 fast twist guns that won’t shoot light bullets.

I do shoot a lot of varmints and I will stick to the lighter 40 grain bullets as they produce the desired effect on gophers and prairie dogs that support the success of that combination to 300 yards with ease. A fast twist bullet won’t beat it at that range…

That’s the same darned reason I’ve gotten into them. Pretty good training for using others at an easy to shoot price. Beyond that, they’re just fun.

It's the gas port, as it relates to bullet jacket. Worst offender may be the old Remington PLHP. Have thousands, both 50gr and 55 gr. All my A1 1:12s tear them up, as do all 1:7 A2s. Doesn't matter if the barrel is new or about shot out. My Daewoo K2 does the same, as does a 1:9 Stag. Wouldn't surprise me if Blitz or SX bullets gave similar results, but don't know.

Frequency varies by barrel. Best case is an occasional flyer in an otherwise very nice group.

700 action, 222 twisted 1:12 (with appropriate throat length*), 542 yards, my first shot on this guy. In fairness, the wind picked up a bit in the afternoon so I kept it under 400 then.

If it only would have an 8 twist, it might really be something. Maybe next Christmas...if I'm really good all year????



The 'fire is always good for a chuckle to start the morning.

Good shootin' -Al

* This might be important.

The last four guns I've rebarreled have been with 12" twist.......

Including my 22x47 that I had the reamer reground to zero freebore

Now, Al....don't go gettin' these guys all confused with facts.

Plus, everybody knows you need less freebore for the longer/heavier bullets than for the shorter/lighter ones....'cuz the heavy bullets are more pointy and high speedy/low dragy-ish, right? They're some of those "...modern bullets that aren't affected by the wind", doncha know? That's the best bit of spewage to come across here lately.

Certainly, SAMMI must have stuff all screwed up with the .045 free bore length relative to the .090 long standard for bullets like the Sierra 69's and 77's. And the .110 free bore for the Berger 80's....clearly some designers wet dream. I mean, it's not like there are some of us that actually get out there and do this stuff, right? Backing up a bit, the SAMMI .045 is shockingly close to the .040 I suggested early in in this goat roping. Weird..........

Hope all is well with you, buddy. -Al

"People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid."
- Soren Aabye Kierkegaard (1813-1855)

😳

🤣🤣🤣🤣

👍

Al,

I’m guessing this was directed at me. In my above post, I was asking and wanting to discuss in good faith. I’ve certainly experienced what I described above (many times), so I wanted to get your take, as well.

Not at all, Jordan. More of an observation on the bigger picture of things here.



Jordan, my initial suggestions had nothing to do with magazine length limitations. If the chamber is throated correctly for bullet being used, mag. length is a distant 3rd. on the list of importance.

If, on the other hand, mag. length is the dimension around which everything else has to work, then you make other compromises. Work the problem backward from that. Or do what it takes to correct the mag. length issue so you don't have to compromise on the throat.

I've already gone further on this than I should have. Or will going forward. A smart guy once told me that after about 5 replies to any question here, things start circling the drain.....a pretty accurate observation.

Good shootin' Jordan. -Al

Here’s a screen shot from a post on another forum, it’s a decent guide.




My Tikka 1-10” shoots 50 gr bullets very well but doesn’t like the 75 grainers.

My Tikka Varmint 1-8” shoots 75 gr ELDM like a house on fire.






P

I have a .223 with a 1:9 that shoots 55's to 70 grain bullets well, but my main long range rifle is a 1: 8, and , and I plan on rebarreling another action to 1:7.5.
These are long range TR rifles though , not hunters .
Cat

I have a 1:12 twist Remington 788 223 Rem in a beautiful custom stock that's quite accurate with 62gr bullets and lighter. Just got some 55gr Gamekings that's begging for a range session. Otherwise this is a varmint/coyote gun. I'm not interested in using it on edible game such as deer or hogs. Other chamberings are better for that role. For my purposes I'm happy with 1:12 twist

My mistake, Al. Thanks for the reply.

I completely agree. This is not a new thing we're discussing, but it's something that many haven't thought much about. Within a given weight class, a shorter bullet typically has a shorter-radius ogive that results in a shorter bullet body base-to-ogive length. When comparing bullets in very different weight classes, however, I agree that the shorter bullet certainly requires a shorter throat. 'Stick has posted lots of good photos comparing bullet BTO, but here's a pic illustrating same. The bullets are aligned where the ogive meets the bullet body (ogive reaches 0.224" diameter).

L-to-R, all .224": 40 gr Sierra HP, 50 gr Rem PSP, 55 gr SP, 69 gr Scenar, 69 gr MK, 75 gr ELD-M



Assuming the bullet body should stay at or above the case shoulder/neck junction, when comparing against the 75 ELD, both the 69 Scenar and MK require a longer throat to just contact the lands. When going down in weight significantly, the 55 gr SP and 75 ELD require similar throat lengths, but the 40 HP and 50 SP both need a shorter throat than the 75 ELD.

Hah, wise words and very true.

That’s why fellas like me don’t find much negative to a standard chambered 223 or whatever mostly. I’ll use 40-55 NBT or VMax-ELD up to 75 ELD / 77 TMKs. The plain old 223 chamber works like a champ and a 7/8 twist doesn’t seem to care what’s scooting along it.

Have mentioned this before here and there, but Ruger made a run 1-8 twist .223 Americans some years ago. Around that time a guy (whose name I can't remember) made a mold that formed a plastic magazine extension for the standard RAR .223 magazine. Eventually Darrik Caraway, of Whittaker Guns in Kentucky, bought the mold, and sent me two of the extensions. It was pretty easy to fit one to the factory magazine, and rounds up to 2.5 inches long feed perfectly--which adds about 1/4" to the standard SAAMI OAL.

I wasn't looking for more powder room (which wouldn't make a significant difference in velocity anyway) as much as more flexibility in seating longer bullets for finer accuracy. It works very well, and of course RARs are known for fine accuracy--though not good looks.

Unfortunately, not long afterward the mold locked up, and as far as I know Darrik has never gotten it "unlocked." But I do have another of these extensions, just in case....

I have one of them Predators with the green stock. That rifle shot everything darned well too. I shot a pile of factory thru it back when I got it cause I was stationed on Lejeune and didn’t have much to do other than shoot on the weekends so I bought and tried everything I could. From the 40 grain Federal BTs to the 77 Black Hills stuff I scrounged from the teams ammo now again…. It’s was a hammer. I let my cousin borrow it 5-6 years ago and he hasn’t given it back yet! Great shooting little guns.

John;
Good afternoon, I hope you and Eileen are well and you're getting a bit of a break in the cold as we are today - after the fresh snow this morning of course.

Thanks for the photo of that Ruger American, it looks like it might be the same vintage as the one I picked up back when?

I'd have to look to see when I got mine, but it was one of the first ones with the l:8 twist that came up here.

It had a black stock when I got it and the fore end was the old style floopy type that needs to be really and truly hogged out - with a rasp as you wrote if I'm remembering correctly.



I was able to connect with Darrik and obtain two of the magazine extensions as well, though mine aren't that color - they're a dark grey - but as you noted they do give options for sure.

The chap who invented that extension is "cotis" here on the 'Fire who has a background in making fairly complex machinery if I'm not mistaken.

Thanks again and all the best to you both.

Dwayne

Hi Dwayne,

Thanks, we're doing well--and we did get a break in the supposed "cold trend" that's been predicted for several days now. When I accompanied Lena the Labrador on our daily afternoon hike it was over 40 Fahrenheit--and even better the wind wasn't blowing!

Thanks for jogging my memory about "cotis."

Nice job on the paint! I did have to rasp out the barrel channel on my 1-8 RAR--but that's more the rule than exception, or at least it was until the stocks were stiffened after a few years production. Have owned two 6.5 Creedmoor Predators that didn't need any rasping.

Good hunting,
John

That works for me. I have a Remington 700 with a 1 in 9 twist that prefers the 40 to 60 grain bullets. My 1 in 8 twist with a 223 Wylde chamber prefers the 69 to 75 grain bullets.

Don't understand the problem myself. 40-50 grs in the 222 . 52-77grs in the 223 heavier in the fast twist lighter in the slow twist no brainer. If you don't have the right twist for your bullets buy another gun duh. Damn it just ain't that hard to figure out...mb

It's my understanding that when the M16A2 was being developed it was planned for a 1/9 twist to shoot the 62 grain FMJ bullets. The problem was for the tracers. They were longer but lighter because they were hollow for the phosphorus compound that would light as the powder burned. To be accurate it needed a 1/7 twist to be accurate.

Due to a miss communication all barrels in the M16A2 became 1/7 twists. If it wasn't for that mix up there would be no 1/7 twist barrels or there would be very few of them and they would be highly specialized. This information came directly from a fellow who was involved in the development of the M16A2 while he was active duty Army. As it appears, the 1/7 twist is a really great twist for the shorter (14.5") M4 barrels. I guess you could call it a "happy accident".

I have a 1/12 twist Remington that really shoots the light weight bullets very well but at 60 grains the accuracy starts to fall off. I have not tried a 62 grain bullet in it. I just don't see the logic. Do I wish it was a 1/9 twist ? You bet, but I can make the 52's and 55's work. I have a Ruger American and some AR's for anything heavier than 60 grains. I understand the new Remington's in .223 are now 1/8 twist. I think that is a good choice for an all around rifle. The exceptions would be for the super light and the super heavy bullets.

This has been a great discussion.

kwg

I like where your heads at Bob.

Sheeit with my 700vs I get tighter groups at 50 yds with full profile sideways hits using 68 gr bthps from Hornady than that. You need to use a fresh target more often so it don't make you look like a cheap ass. But it is the dream target for the slow twist whiners congrats...mb

Scott, last year I did just that. My AR's have 1 in 7 to 1 in 9 twists and wanted a bolt gun that could utilize the same ammo if need be so I picked up a slightly used T3X heavy barrel 223 1 in 8 twist. While they are OK in my 5.56 and wylde chambers Sticks lvr and 75gr Hornady bthp load is on the hot side in the std223 chamber but shoots fabulous. In the wind at 300 + yds the difference in drift over std 55 gr bullets is very noticeable. Out here where I live and pd shoot in SD there is almost allways a wind so less wind drift loads are king.. I can have one of my 700vs ready with slow twist whiner bullets for under 300 yds and the T3x for over 300 right next to each other. Pick the right gun as needed. Like I said...mb

Yep, makes sense to me. I’ve just been loading 223/5.56 on my 550 for ARs. Worked great with LVR and 77 TMKs. Once I got the CTR it shoots the same crap pretty well, or well enough to not be in a hurry to change it up yet.



I let a young fella borrow the CTR for a 1000 yard informal shoot they do in town in the winter. I gave him a box of 50 of the loads and said have a blast. His girlfriend got on the gun and punched these three at 1000. He shot 10 for score and put 10 into 5-6” at 1000 and smoked a milk jug of water.

Before he took the gun he said are you sure this will shoot accurately. I was said “kid, the gun will do it”. That’s all he needed to know. Once he had the wind doped he was in there for accuracy and precision of guns costing a bunch more money than what my rig cost.

He went and got his own CTR this past week..

So like you’ve figured, you don’t need a pile of money to get a good gun that’ll do a lot of things right with a little bit of forethought. Plus I know this Tikka will shoot 40 BTs just as well as it does 77’s so while maybe it isn’t perfect it’s good enough for me and my dinking around.

It doesn't bother a lot of guys here to take a perfectly good Rifle and rebarrel it without even having shot it. My money came harder than that so when I rebarrel something it's because it's tired. I also see the utility of using new take off barrels and do when I can. I have in the wings a new 26" ss fluted heavy barrel chambered for 223 R threaded for a 700vs cost me $100 a local guy will put it on when needed. Another 26" ss 7mm mag chambered barrel when it's needed to replace a tired one. Usually if I want something else I don't go the rebarrel route , I'd rather sell one that is still shooting good and take the money to use on a whole new gun .I get a better return on it than spending dollar after dollar for custom triggers, stocks, and pro rebarrels. Getting back the money I have in a gun when I move it on for something else is an important part for me..
So I can see the advantages of the CTR but I'm not gonna convert my hb t3x to get them. I'll just sell it and buy 1 outright. When I need to.
Mb

Very sensible right there. I see things the sort of the same way. A rifle purchase to me is an investment. However, A lot of times I'll buy used, or barely used because the return rate is much better than buying a new rifle. But I do buy new sometimes, when I have to. Speaking of CTR's, I believe that is the last new rifle I purchased about 5 years ago. The second one I have, I bought used for much less than what a new rifle would cost. I can still sell it for more than I paid. That is what makes sense to me. I see a lot of wasted money on brand new rifles, then you have to modify this or that, and it all costs money. Especially if you don't do your own work. In the end, you have 3 times into the rifle than what it is worth. I don't go backwards like that, but to each their own.. Scotty did it right with that CTR for dang sure. I remember the morning he texted me with that picture of the target shot at 1,000 yards. Now that is how you get it done with the little 223 rem and one of the many reasons the faster twist makes more sense. I like the way you and Scotty think on this stuff. However, there are some here (very few), that are stuck in the 1960's and just can't get some of their ideas out of their heads. That's on them though.

Cool info about the A2 kwg. Thanks for sharing. I think the main thing here to take away from the thread is use the appropriate bullet for the rifle you are shooting. It doesn't have to be an argument, like some guys want to make it. I also agree with you that the 1 in 8" is damn near perfect. Couple that to a damn good rifle like a Tikka CTR and you are going to be in hog heaven.

BSA we do think the same I buy more slightly used guns than new ones, I allways let someone else take it in the butt on new gun depreciation. Gotta laugh , I was looking for a 1 in 8 t3x when I found this one, but it didn't look right. There was a 5/16" gap between the barrel and bottom of the barrel channel. Not overly familiar with Tikka but knew the recoil lug was not 1 piece to the barreled action it is in the stock and the groove in the bottom of the action go down over it. I asked the owner if I could take it down to check it out. I put a lot of used guns in their gun vise and check them out cleaning them as well prior to purchase. I'll clean and lube 10 for everyone I buy so it works out for them and they give me the right to do so. A good dealer is worth more than a hundred fugging box stores. Anyway I loosen the guard screws and pulled the barreled action, a guy could see that the recoil lug had been sitting on the bottom of the action but not in the recess. Replaced it correctly and replaced the screws, cut my deal, paid for it, took it home, scoped it and bore sighted it. 10 minutes later one hole groups at 50 yds off the bench on my deck out the back door. Zero'ed with ammo loaded for my other 223 bolt guns 55 gr horns. Moved the turrets after each 3 shot group 3 groups to zero all one hole not all perfectly round but 1 ragged hole. Yep I like Tikka too. Buying them slightly used at a discount is like having your cake and eating it too. The thing is pulling off a satisfactory barrel off one of my 700's for a new one to change twist, or to stainless, weight or length would have cost more than that tikka. Never mind a caliber, magazine, or bolt face change added to that. Yeah I know I'm lucky that I don't live somewhere more highly populated where shelf life of neat stuff isn't measured in nano seconds either...mb

Great post man. I love it! That reminds me of the new looking Tikka CTR that was on the shelf a couple years ago. I should have bought the damn thing. Yes, still kicking myself in the azz over it. It was chambered in 308win. Not my favorite cartridge, by any stretch of the imagination, and I already had 2 CTR's chambered in 6.5 creedmoor. It also had the big gap between the barrel and forend tip. I knew exactly what was wrong with it. I've seen them like that, when guys don't know how to put them back together. That rifle was only $500 and barely used. The same thing happened when I bought my Tikka varmint 22-250 for the same price. I just could not let that one get away at that price!! I knew exactly what was wrong with it. It was a T3 model with the aluminum recoil lug. Replaced that with a stainless lug, glass bedded it quickly and that thing shoots incredibly well. Generally 3 shots into less than an inch at 400 yards. That also goes back to using the correct bullet for the rifle at hand. That damn thing has a 1 in 14" twist barrel. I'm limited, but I know that. I'm not going to put a 77 in it and wonder why it's not performing well. I'm not going to biotch about it too much, just use the appropriate bullet. Yes, to me it would be much more useful if it were a 1 in 8", but I have one of those as well. "It's all good", as they say in my neck of the woods..

Eh BSA life would be a bitch for guys like us dealing with the one gun for everything mentality. Nothing wrong with my imagination when it comes to shooting and what women are for. Guns of course being more interesting and less expensive than the other..mb

Guns are easier to figure out too. ha ha.. I still love me some wimmens though..

There is a fellow on AR15.com that goes by the name Cold Blue. He was part of the M16A2 development program. He was telling us about the decision on the barrel twist. The original design called for a 1/9 twist but there was some discussion about the accuracy of the tracers and they learned the tracer needed a 1/7 twist to be accurate. Anyway, when the barrel makers asked about the barrel twist someone gave the 1/7 number not knowing the team was going with the 1/9 as per the design. The barrels came back from the makers 1/7's.

They liked the results and kept the 1/7 twist for the 62 grain bullets in the M2. It was later determined that the shorter M4's had better long distance accuracy with 1/7 twist at the reduced velocities with the shorter barrels. I gathered from the conversation the heavier bullets came later to make the best of the new fast twist. It appears the Army Marksmanship Unit and the Navy both wanted heavier and more stable bullets. We know the results as the MK-262 made by Black Hills Ammunition.
https://www.shootingtimes.com/edito...ns-black-hills-mk-262-mod-1-review/99098

It also appears that the Army's DMR's (Designated Marksman Rifle) went from the 1/7 chrome moly barrel to stainless 1/8 barrels.

Barrel: The 1:7 twist, 20-inch (510 mm) barrel from the M16A2 and A4 were replaced with a stainless steel Douglas Barrels 1:8 twist, 20-inch barrel, with 12 flutes cut into the barrel to reduce weight. The front sight block was installed with 4 set screws instead of two taper pins. The SDM-R retained the A2-style flash hider.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squad_Designated_Marksman_Rifle

kwg

I got to interview the manager of the M16A2 development project, a USMC Ordnance officer. He mentioned the 7 twist came about because of the tracer rounds in artic environments required the 7. Same officer ran the M24 development effort. Another very interesting conversation.

Chris,

Very interesting!

I forgot to mention in my previous post, which is especially relevant to this: "Eileen and I have three .223s--though one is the .223 Bushmaster XM15-E2S skinny-barreled carbine I bought in 2008, which has a 5.56 NATO throat and a 1-9 twist barrel. It has grouped bullet from 40-grain Ballistic Tips to various 75-80 grainers well inside an inch at 100 yards."

Did considerable experimenting with lighter, shorter bullets in various twist-rate barrels back when I used one of the late Vern Juenke's Bullet Concentricity Comparators for a couple of years. It worked through ultra-sound, which revealed the internal balance of jacketed bullets--and worked very well. In fact, several companies bought one to improve the accuracy of their production bullets.

One thing that became obvious during the period was that lighter, shorter bullets could shoot VERY well in faster-twist barrels IF they were well-balanced, basically meaning they had jackets of very consistent thickness. Which is why the 40-grain Ballistic Tips shot very well in that 1-9 twist barrel, despite the long throat. Saw the same thing in other rifles, including 85-grain Sierra hollow-points that grouped very well in a Lilja-barreled 6.5x55.

Came to the conclusion that when lighter, shorter bullets don't group as well in "too-fast" twists, it's generally due to the bullets not being well-balanced.

Hmmm. Learn something new every day!

If I wanted to shoot a 223 in a LV benchrest rifle (just to buck the PPC monopoly), I would use a 14 twist and throat for 52's. If I was going to build a LR target rifle, I would use a 7.5 twist and throat for 80's. If I was going to build a rifle for general varmint use, I would probably build an 8 twist and load 55's to 75's, depending on what I had on hand.
Bearing surface, in combination with OAL, is the determining factor for throating unless a magazine is involved. Magazine constraints may trump everything else. GD

Magnum Bob- Back around 2005 I bought a CZ-527 American, 12 twist in 223. I shot that gun a lot, and my daughter did too, learning how to shoot well. It always shot pretty good, 1/2 to 3/4 MOA with most loads. After around 5K rounds, a lot of them shot hot and fast, the barrel was getting really tired. I called up James Calhoon since sometimes he has some takeoff CZ barrels.

He had a 9 twist 223 he had just pulled off a brand new rifle, never been shot except factory test targets. He told me headspace generally on the CZ's was pretty close, and odds were good I could just screw the barrel on, check headspace, and would probably be good to go, maybe a minor adjustment. He was right, I screwed that barrel on and headspace was perfect, a hair bit on the tight side, just the way I like it. I threaded the barrel 1/2x28 for a suppressor and went to shooting it. Right out of the box it was shooting groups that I would have been plenty happy with out of a custom. Probably the most accurate, and easiest to load for factory barrel I have ever owned. Sometimes I wish I knew the guy who ditched that barrel without ever shooting it. I would send him some pictures to show him what he let go without ever trying it. The groups were shot with loads from the old barrel, no development at all.

Top targets, the one group on the right was with 50 Blitzkings, the other groups on the left were with 50 VMAX.

Not mine, Longer hunting bullets often do but sleek match bullets often need less throat simply because there is less full diameter bullet shank in front of the case mouth yet the sleek steeply tapered front of the bullet is long and takes up magazine space.

I had these bullets out as samples when I was revising several dimensions for a new reamer a couple days ago. They are lined up where the boat tailed section becomes the full diameter shank section. A black marker indicates where the forward section of the full diameter shank starts it's transition to the ogive. The exact full diameter shank length is noted below...the boat tail length is not included, obviously.

Top: Nosler 70 gr. BTip (.330 shank length)
Ctr: Sierra 90 gr. Game Changer (.400 shank length)
Btm: BIB 104 gr. (.450 shank length)



Clearly, the throat lengths are going be much different (longer) for the longer bullets.

If the magazine is the limiting factor then those bullet tips will be lining up and the black lines will be in different positions. It's a multivariable problem.

Respectfully, mag length restrictions aren't what was questioned....it's throat length. From my post on 3-4:

"If, on the other hand, mag. length is the dimension around which everything else has to work , then you make other compromises. Work the problem backward from that. Or do what it takes to correct the mag. length issue so you don't have to compromise on the throat."

Good shootin' -Al

For a while the 9 twist seemed to dominate over the 12 twist. Now it's the 8 twist that seems to be dominating. I like the 8 twist myself but I have no heart burn with the 9. If it's a gun with a magazine like an AR, I could see where the 9 twist would shine with 62 grain bullets, maybe even some 69 grain bullets. The magazine limiting the length of the bullet and all.

If I were the king and I could make everything to fit in my world I would eliminate the 12 twist and the slowest twist would be a 10. I'm not the king and that's probably a good thing. For those guys shooting the light weight go fasters, the 12 and 14 is right up their alley. Who am I to judge ?? It's a good thing there are plenty of choices.

kwg

I'll throw this into the fray. I cannot vouch for its validity, just something I found and saved from the 'net

Thanks for the visual, Al. As mathman mentioned, it’s a multivariable problem. What really matters is bullet body length, as you’ve described here, but bullet body length is a function not only of bullet weight and overall length, but also bullet shape. Some heavy VLD designs with long boat-tails and long ogives have very short body length, and consequently require short throats if the bottom of the bullet body is seated to the case neck/shoulder junction, assuming magazine length is not a constraint. My illustration above shows how some lighter, shorter bullets may require a longer throat than heavier, longer ones, but I think that’s really only the case with bullet weights that are somewhat similar. As both our images show, very light bullets generally have a shorter body length than much heavier ones, even with very different bullet designs. Bullet weight seems to be the dominant variable, and only if weight is similar do length and shape typically play a significant role in determining bullet body length.

Back to the OP question- I have been shooting the same load of a 53gr HP Sierra flat base, same COAL, in various 223s with twist of 7,8,9, and 12" at 100yd only . Five shot groups. Overall, I'd say this particular load shoots about the same in all these barrels. I'm not seeing much difference even between the 7 and 12" barrels. The 9" twist barrel is a DPMS, and they (Luth) state this is the best all around if you are shooting the 55FMJ AND the 62gr 855/SS109 Greentip bullets. I think the 77gr Sierra is about the longest bullet that will still fit an AR magazine? But the 77gr requires the 8" twist?

Good post. I'd vote for you to be king.. ha ha.. I have 1 in 7", 1 in 8", and 1 in 9" twist barrels on my 223's and they all work very well. Nothing at all wrong with being able to run heavier bullets in the .223 remington. It just extends your optimal range over a slow twist and lighter bullet. Why guys don't see that or realize it and don't want to let go of old notions is beyond me. Here's one with a 1 in 9" barrel I got from one of my buddies:



Here's the first 10 shot group I fired with it, to check to make sure it was going to shoot the 69's:


Then the next 3 shots to check it at 400 yards:


If you guys don't think that can kill a ground squirrel at 600 yards, you may just have some screws loose. And no, you don't need a special chamber for that bullet or load. It is loaded to fit in an AR15 magazine. That load also works great in the bolt actions I've tried it in.. Does it shoot like that all the time? No, not hardly, but most times it will keep them under 2" at 400..:



I've also shot 50 and 53gr Vmax bullets out of it and it shoots sub moa. Not quite as well at 400 yards as the 69 smk, so the faster twist is what I prefer because it shoots the bullets I want to sling way out there much better than a slow twist barrel. The same can be said for my 1 in 8" twist 22-250. There is a reason most manufactures went to the faster twist barrels and some of these old guys need to just face up to the facts and quit trying to make excuses.

Wow, old memories. Yep, that was me who made that machine. Darrik was so busy running the gun shop he never had time for me to train him on the tips and tricks I figured out on the machine and mold.

That was 10 years ago I believe. With the vast improvements in 3D printing machines I would definitely go that route nowadays. When I calculated material cost of the $240k 3DSystems printer we had back then it came out to $33 a part just in material before labor to clean it up! It has come WAY down since then. We have a new 3D Systems printer just put in this year, what a PITA it has been. $300k machine, broken more than running. Seems like the tech is out every 2 or 3 weeks. Its only benefit is running large parts, things like 18” or longer.

We have 3 different FormLabs tabletop 3D printers ($8 to $10k) along a wall at work, they run circles around that massive 3D Systems machine.

Does Ruger even make those style magazines for the RAR anymore? Ones I have seen in photos show AR or AICS type mags hanging out the bottom now.

cotis,

Thanks for the update!

I don't know if Ruger still makes that style of magazine, as I haven't gotten a new American since 2017--but am going to check out their website. (Edited to add I just did check their website, and Ruger does still make the American rotary-style magazine.)

Am down to two Americans, the 1-8 twist .223 where I installed your magazine extension, and a special-run 1-8 .22-250 from Whittaker, from 2017.

I never had as much trouble with the "rotary" magazines as some people had, and in fact the .223's magazine feeds perfectly. What I have noticed is tapered cartridges can sometimes cause trouble--which has happened with the .22-250.

John

There might be a few very light, extremely fragile designs that will come apart in a 1:8 barrel, but most will be fine. And, the 1:8 gives you the ability to stabilize the higher BC bullets, should you want to maximize the .223’s long range capabilities. I would never buy a slow twist barrel in any cartridge capable of long range nowadays. Faster twist just gives you many more options.

John

Great post, particularly about the need for compromise.............& the bigger the range of bullets to be used in a specifc scenario, the more the need for some level of compromise.

Just as a general rule, in many rifles, not 224 caliber, I've often gotten best accuracy with a given bullet with twist that just consistently stabilizes a given bullet..

As for the 223 Rem , 1-8 works fine across the range of bullets that I use at the COAL's I need, well enough, but I don't shoot bullets <52 gr in those guns either.

But if dedicating a rifle to bullets of 55gr & less, a 1-12" is a better choice.

Everything is some level of compromise unless you are dedicating a given gun to a fairly narrow range of tasks.

I think the 223 Rem is maybe a round that requires a little more compromise than some other to cover a really wide range of bullets, especially given the wide range of COAL needed by various guns.

As for the OP's question about shooting 300 yds+, why bother with LW bullets (unless you have a gazillion) when the heavier bullets (60-77 gr) all do far, far better in the wind & kill little stuff just as well?

If you have a gazillion LW bullets, then barrel a rifle dedicated to, & optimized, for them.

JMHO.

MM