There’s a thread on Hunter’s Campfire forum “Ariz Man killed by Bear”. Sort of a discussion within the discussion is about whether black bear attacks are primarily predatory, that is to eat you, vs primarily to move you out of their area and bite you some while at it. And the flip side being the same question about griz/brown. I’d say most commentators are in no danger of having sufficient data points in their lifetime to make those determinations one way or another. But that never stops expert opinion on the Fire.
That’s where your respected opinion comes in. I’m sure it will be appreciated by most here. Thanks
Too bad JJHack 'aint around to comment on BB...
shootem;
Good evening to you sir, I hope the day was kind to you and this finds you well.
I'm cognizant I'm not Phil and don't mean to do anything here other than recommend a few books on the subject if you or anyone is inclined that way.
With apologies as I've recommended these books previously so will be repeating myself, here's some "light" reading by James Gary Shelton who has passed on now but during his life was considered the preeminent bear attack expert here in BC.
He also developed and taught a bear survival course which became mandatory for some jobs here in forestry and geology.
Here's the first one - The Bear Encounter Survival Guide.
https://www.abebooks.com/9780969809906/Bear-Encounter-Survival-Guide-Shelton-0969809905/plpThe second is - Bear Attacks - the Deadly Truth
https://www.abebooks.com/9780969809913/Bear-Attacks-Deadly-Truth-James-0969809913/plpThe last one he wrote was Bear Attacks 2 - Myth and Reality
https://www.abebooks.com/9780969809920/Bear-Attacks-2-Myth-Reality-0969809921/plpThere is also a bear attack book by Steven Herero which I've read. He was a prof at the University of Alberta I want to say?
As a layman who has zero accreditation in any studies pertaining to bears, I'd say my personal nod goes to the late Mr. Shelton's books, but that's just one little old guy's opinion right?
Oh, I'm a wee bit anti-Amazon so that's why the links are from Abe Books. I've had perfect dealings with them over the years and the books even made it up across the medicine line in a timely manner and in the condition described.
Hope that's useful to someone out there.
All the best.
Dwayne
Thanks Dwayne, ordered all three.
Given the amount of experiences some here think is necessary to draw any
even rudimentary conclusion, no one could possibly be qualified.
Who has been attacked by numerous Black, and Grizzely Bears.
Unprovoked.
And any conclusion would still be largely academic.
Because just like human encounters, every bear encounter is an example of one.
A person, a bear, today, right now!
Doesn't matter what brand of creature one interacts with, you should read it ASAP.
DGAF if it's a house cat, cow, bear or human.
I've been near numerous black bears, but have never had a moment's grief with them. Feral dogs are another story...
But I digress. All the bear I've been near, once becoming aware of me, wanted to retreat, cubs or not. The ones that were unaware of me continued with their endless search for food, and unless hunting them, I left them alone. I've never had one shadow or circle me, which I understand is something to be aware of.
I read years ago, I forget the author, that generally a Black Bear attack is predatory in nature. They do not attack like a Grizzly would if one gets too close to cubs or too near a den.
I say generally because sometimes a particular bear may not have gotten the memo, and I am NOT going to press my luck on an article written years ago. I give them their space and don't interfere with cubs or dens.
Anteloper;
Good evening to you sir, Happy Father's Day if that applies, regardless I still hope the day went well.
You're most welcome on the reading list for sure.
As mentioned I've used Abe Books for years and usually I'm looking for out of print stuff so buy mostly used books from them. So far they've been 100% describing condition.
Paul mentioned stats with fatal bear attacks and for sure they tell part of the problem bear story, but not necessarily all of it or that's my thoughts.
Here in BC we've got a very liberal bear season with a 2 bear a year limit, so sometimes bears that otherwise might end up making the news just make it into the freezer.
One of the two bears that didn't run away like good bears should when asked is resting comfortably in our freezer now in fact, slowly being turned into cat food stew as it was a garbage eater and didn't smell quite right. He wandered through the wrong yard on the very last day of bear season last spring and that as they say, turned into that.
He was a sub adult male which according to the Shelton books are the most likely to commit an offense against us.
Both grizzlies and black bears can be predatory though for sure. We've had them chasing mulies through the yard and a local mule deer mortality study has shown black bears kill more mulie fawns than wolves, coyotes or cougars. That surprised me somehow, but that's a current study so fresh data.
Anyways I hope you enjoy the books.
All the best in the upcoming week.
Dwayne
I suspect--based on knowing Phil pretty well--that he's grown weary of the typical Campfire BS.
Which includes one member who claimed the 9-foot brown bear Phil killed with his 9mm as it was charging Phil and his fishing client was a "juvenile" bear....
I suspect--based on knowing Phil pretty well--that he's grown weary of the typical Campfire BS.
Which includes one member who claimed the 9-foot brown bear Phil killed with his 9mm as it was charging Phil and his fishing client was a "juvenile" bear....
Idiots abound everywhere. Phil says it was a 900 pound bear then it was at least a 900 pound bear
I suspect--based on knowing Phil pretty well--that he's grown weary of the typical Campfire BS.
Which includes one member who claimed the 9-foot brown bear Phil killed with his 9mm as it was charging Phil and his fishing client was a "juvenile" bear....
Idiots abound everywhere. Phil says it was a 900 pound bear then it was at least a 900 pound bear
He’s not one to tolerate fools or facsimiles. Reason I titled this thread to him is because if anyone on the Fire can give real life based opinions on bear it would be him. Mule Deer do you have any idea how many bear he and his family of guides have accounted for? If all the hides were stretched how many football fields would they cover? I admire the man. From his short bits now and then about his jungle adventures in SE Asia and stories comparing such chamberings as the 458 Win to the .500 Gibbs as reacted to by shot browns. How many of you know anyone with enough backup kills on browns to build a reliable data log of cartridge efficacy ? And yeah, if he says the 9mm example was a 9 footer I’d tend to believe him.
I suspect--based on knowing Phil pretty well--that he's grown weary of the typical Campfire BS.
Which includes one member who claimed the 9-foot brown bear Phil killed with his 9mm as it was charging Phil and his fishing client was a "juvenile" bear....
And yet continue to mock the loss of the "good guys". A different place no doubt.
There seems to be enough experts on here with opinions gleaned from reading numerous stories written by experts that adding mine would be superfluous.
Actually, your input would be quite welcome.
I can only go by my (limited) experience and correlate it to what I've read. Sometimes it don't compute.
You're an expert on the subject with much, much more practical experience than I have. I am much more interested in the real world info.
My experience with black bears are that they are a lot easier to intimidate. When our kids were small we had a very remote camp on the Black River, above the Arctic circle and a mile from the Yukon border. Black bears were a constant nuisance and used to sit just inside the timber watching our two children play. Occasionally they would openly threaten us but standing your ground, sometimes threatening them by aggressively walking toward them while maintaining eye contact, always worked. And when the turned to flee an ounce of 7 1/2 bird shot in their rear helped them remember.
One morning my wife and I were sleeping in a small tent at Llaird river hot springs and heard a bear outside. I got up and went out. It was acting aggressive with head low, ears down and circling toward me. I had my M70 .375 and a wrist rocket with a handful of glass marbles so decided to shoot him with that. He was only 5-7 yards away and when I hit him you could tell he was pissed but I took another step toward him and hit him again.
This time he slowly backed off into the timber but continued glaring at me.
Less than a week later we heard a camper at that campground had been killed and partially eaten by a black bear.
I have had numerous similar encounters over the past 44 years with Brown bears as well and while they tend to be a bit more social and less threatening, a few have acted predatory like that black bear , but by maintaining eye contact and standing my ground and slowly backing away I have only been forced to kill one bear not previously wounded by a client.
My experience with black bears are that they are a lot easier to intimidate. When our kids were small we had a very remote camp on the Black River, above the Arctic circle and a mile from the Yukon border. Black bears were a constant nuisance and used to sit just inside the timber watching our two children play. Occasionally they would openly threaten us but standing your ground, sometimes threatening them by aggressively walking toward them while maintaining eye contact, always worked. And when the turned to flee an ounce of 7 1/2 bird shot in their rear helped them remember.
One morning my wife and I were sleeping in a small tent at Llaird river hot springs and heard a bear outside. I got up and went out. It was acting aggressive with head low, ears down and circling toward me. I had my M70 .375 and a wrist rocket with a handful of glass marbles so decided to shoot him with that. He was only 5-7 yards away and when I hit him you could tell he was pissed but I took another step toward him and hit him again.
This time he slowly backed off into the timber but continued glaring at me.
Less than a week later we heard a camper at that campground had been killed and partially eaten by a black bear.
I have had numerous similar encounters over the past 44 years with Brown bears as well and while they tend to be a bit more social and less threatening, a few have acted predatory like that black bear , but by maintaining eye contact and standing my ground and slowly backing away I have only been forced to kill one bear not previously wounded by a client.
I’m not the OP but thank you for sharing - your experiences are truly appreciated by more than you know (as well as the other contributors to the forum - with real world experience)…..I hope you and the others continue to contribute when you can and can also ignore the BS that often surfaces (not all of the time but more often than it should).
PennDog
I'm with PennDog, you are among a few elite resources we are fortunate to have here and I always enjoy your input. Thank you.
Sig
My experience with black bears are that they are a lot easier to intimidate. When our kids were small we had a very remote camp on the Black River, above the Arctic circle and a mile from the Yukon border. Black bears were a constant nuisance and used to sit just inside the timber watching our two children play. Occasionally they would openly threaten us but standing your ground, sometimes threatening them by aggressively walking toward them while maintaining eye contact, always worked. And when the turned to flee an ounce of 7 1/2 bird shot in their rear helped them remember.
One morning my wife and I were sleeping in a small tent at Llaird river hot springs and heard a bear outside. I got up and went out. It was acting aggressive with head low, ears down and circling toward me. I had my M70 .375 and a wrist rocket with a handful of glass marbles so decided to shoot him with that. He was only 5-7 yards away and when I hit him you could tell he was pissed but I took another step toward him and hit him again.
This time he slowly backed off into the timber but continued glaring at me.
Less than a week later we heard a camper at that campground had been killed and partially eaten by a black bear.
I have had numerous similar encounters over the past 44 years with Brown bears as well and while they tend to be a bit more social and less threatening, a few have acted predatory like that black bear , but by maintaining eye contact and standing my ground and slowly backing away I have only been forced to kill one bear not previously wounded by a client.
Thanks for ringing in Phil. I can't imagine staring down a Brown Bear.
That Liard attack was in August of 1997. I remember it well because it occurred not too long after I had visited the springs and had seen a MASSIVE black bear right outside the park entrance.
This is a very good read on that attack.
https://www.readersdigest.ca/culture/rogue-bear-rampage/
Indeed appreciated!
I don’t always express appreciation for responses that are great because I don’t think it adds anything substantial to the thread but I believe most feel that way so the weight of negative nonsense takes on an unrealistic appearance of being the majority.
At my age I am getting to the point where handling an aggressive coyote might prove fatal so the bear stuff is getting somewhat academic but I can’t help being interested.
Very glad you’re still here Phil!
I've guided for black bear for close to 50 years also have a home were bears walk in my back yard I've had one bear encounter that turned deadly.....
Always carry a 44 mag or 45 Colt its like always wearing a hat....one day went to town to get supplies but had a Kimber 45 ACP on my hip sort of like more fire power if I need to deal with a 2 legged predator....well got home a little late and in my rush leaving never changed my pistol from the Kimber to one of my S&W's....
Went to the bait was emptying the buckets in the barrel when a smaller bear came in it never stopped just came running towards me ears back I yelled at it drew the Kimber by that time it was a couple feet away I shot two times the bear stopped dead at my feet....both shots were in the top of its skull just above its eyes....
Many times I seen bears at a bait site some would be seen walking away and just disappear even some would run away like their tail was on fire....never had a bear come running into a bait when it heard the bait barrel being filled....
The bear that was shot was a small 200 lb. male 3 years old and not a lot of fat on him for late- September but it was a slim year with little to no berries and little to no acorns....
Yeah He was Hangry!
Your a Smart Man!!!
HS 58
The wrist rocket is a fun and useful tool and I have used one on everything from rabbits to range cattle, and one time, on a small black bear. I was working for the forest service at the time; maintaining and improving remote campsites. I drove into one seldom used site and found a young bear, maybe a 100 pounder, halfway into a tipped over garbage can (these often contained fish parts which are irresistible to bears). Anyway, he paid no attention as I drove in. I got the wrist rocket out and hit him right in the butt with a 45 caliber lead ball. He hit the bottom of the barrel hard enough to flip it around. It took him a second to get out of the barrel and get his bearings, but when he did, he lost no time getting away. I figured this might have been an educational experience for the bear and it was entertaining for me.
I often met up with black bears in my travels. I started carrying the wrist rocket and a cut down 45/70 behind the seat after an encounter with one which was quite aggressive and would not back down (I retreated into the truck). I never used the 45/70 and only shot the one with the wrist rocket. The aggressive bear was killed by a guy from a nearby logging camp, so I didn't get to try either one on him.
Several years prior to the fellow getting killed at Liard, a geologist went missing in that same general area, I believe. He was believed to have been killed and eaten by a large black bear, which was the only bear in the immediate area. His boots and some other clothing was all that remained. GD
There seems to be enough experts on here with opinions gleaned from reading numerous stories written by experts that adding mine would be superfluous.
Who is this interloper who could be so bold? 🤣
My experience with black bears are that they are a lot easier to intimidate. When our kids were small we had a very remote camp on the Black River, above the Arctic circle and a mile from the Yukon border. Black bears were a constant nuisance and used to sit just inside the timber watching our two children play. Occasionally they would openly threaten us but standing your ground, sometimes threatening them by aggressively walking toward them while maintaining eye contact, always worked. And when the turned to flee an ounce of 7 1/2 bird shot in their rear helped them remember.
One morning my wife and I were sleeping in a small tent at Llaird river hot springs and heard a bear outside. I got up and went out. It was acting aggressive with head low, ears down and circling toward me. I had my M70 .375 and a wrist rocket with a handful of glass marbles so decided to shoot him with that. He was only 5-7 yards away and when I hit him you could tell he was pissed but I took another step toward him and hit him again.
This time he slowly backed off into the timber but continued glaring at me.
Less than a week later we heard a camper at that campground had been killed and partially eaten by a black bear.
I have had numerous similar encounters over the past 44 years with Brown bears as well and while they tend to be a bit more social and less threatening, a few have acted predatory like that black bear , but by maintaining eye contact and standing my ground and slowly backing away I have only been forced to kill one bear not previously wounded by a client.
Have you an opinion regarding the general attitude of inland vs. coastal Grizz/Browns? Seems like there are news articles and/or threads on this site regarding folks getting mauled/killed by Grizz in MT/WY almost every year, sometimes 3-4/yr. I'm wondering if in your opinion the interior bears are more aggressive or is it just that MT/WY has just a plain higher rate of people/bear interactions?
I could also very well be asking the wrong question by relating inland bears to MT/WY bears. My actual grizzly/brown experience doesn't extend any further than Clyde @ the Bismarck ND zoo when I was a kid.
Thanks for that entry 458Win. 900 lbs or 90 lbs, any bear old enough to survive without momma is strong enough and has the tools to tear us limb from limb.
My experience with black bears are that they are a lot easier to intimidate. When our kids were small we had a very remote camp on the Black River, above the Arctic circle and a mile from the Yukon border. Black bears were a constant nuisance and used to sit just inside the timber watching our two children play. Occasionally they would openly threaten us but standing your ground, sometimes threatening them by aggressively walking toward them while maintaining eye contact, always worked. And when the turned to flee an ounce of 7 1/2 bird shot in their rear helped them remember.
One morning my wife and I were sleeping in a small tent at Llaird river hot springs and heard a bear outside. I got up and went out. It was acting aggressive with head low, ears down and circling toward me. I had my M70 .375 and a wrist rocket with a handful of glass marbles so decided to shoot him with that. He was only 5-7 yards away and when I hit him you could tell he was pissed but I took another step toward him and hit him again.
This time he slowly backed off into the timber but continued glaring at me.
Less than a week later we heard a camper at that campground had been killed and partially eaten by a black bear.
I have had numerous similar encounters over the past 44 years with Brown bears as well and while they tend to be a bit more social and less threatening, a few have acted predatory like that black bear , but by maintaining eye contact and standing my ground and slowly backing away I have only been forced to kill one bear not previously wounded by a client.
Have you an opinion regarding the general attitude of inland vs. coastal Grizz/Browns? Seems like there are news articles and/or threads on this site regarding folks getting mauled/killed by Grizz in MT/WY almost every year, sometimes 3-4/yr. I'm wondering if in your opinion the interior bears are more aggressive or is it just that MT/WY has just a plain higher rate of people/bear interactions?
I could also very well be asking the wrong question by relating inland bears to MT/WY bears. My actual grizzly/brown experience doesn't extend any further than Clyde @ the Bismarck ND zoo when I was a kid.
I am convinced that bears that live in densely populated areas where adequate food is available are, on the whole, less aggressive, or less territorial, than bears who are constantly wandering in the search of food.
On a hike up the Fox River (northern Rocky Mountain trench) we saw little bear sign and nearly foundered on huckleberries. I doubt that bears up there were likely to be too aggressive, although I could imagine one craving a little protein; I know I was! Here, in the Kootenays (south in the trench), there are many bears, the berry bushes are often eaten down to the ground, and I think the bears might be a little more inclined to be more brazen. By the way, I have roughly .01% the experience with bears as does Mr. Shoemaker, so take it for what it's worth. GD
I've hiked a couple thousand miles in grizzly habitat, and that and more through black bear ground. The most spooked I've ever been was by a black bear boar, which midday was on a collision course with me on a trail. He wasn't yielding, not one bit. Me and my hiking buddy jumped up and down screaming enough for him to finally lay down his hair, and grudgingly detour just a bit off the trail to pass us.
Griz, even a sow with a grown cub, have always run from me. But it might just be that I've never run into an alpha griz I didn't give notice to, or a starving one.
I've also met the Wyoming game warden that Joe Puckett is modeled after (Joe of the books, not the stupid TV series), and he has spent plenty of time with both bears. The only one he ever had to shoot was a big black bear that had gotten very aggressive in a couple camps. He gave it a full can of bear spray in the face, and it just stared back at him as if saying "is that all you got?" He answered the query with a 300 Win. Mag.
Griz are very tough on each other in the northern Rockies. There is never enough food here for them as they gorge in preparation for a long winter hibernation. Just as they are highly territorial with each other, they are with humans too. If you come across a beta griz, you can fart and make them run. If you come across an alpha griz, you better not act the competitor in any way, intentional or not.
I’ve only seen a handful of black bears while elk hunting in Colorado but the one that really spooked me was one I never saw.
I was elk hunting with a guide north of Pagosa Springs and we were working our way south along a north-south ridge. The slight breeze was from the southwest or our right, 2:00. We were seeing a lot of bear sign and we came to a spot that was really thick with 8-10’ high spruce saplings, so thick we had to push our way through them.
We were about half way through the little thicket and all of a sudden something went crashing off, running through the brush maybe 5 or 10 yards to our left 8:00. I’m sure our eyes were like saucers but after a few minutes of quiet, we eased over to where the sound came from.
As you see often in the mountains, there was a flat spot on the uphill side of a mature spruce that was kinda mashed smooth and sure as shootin’ there were bear claw marks that were left in the moist dirt as it took off running away. The bear had been bedded on that flat spot.
Looking at everything, the bear had waited and listened to us pushing through the young spruces until the southwest wind gave him our scent. Had it decided to come after us there wouldn’t have even been time to say, “oh chit!”
Phil, bless you for putting up with us. I don't claim to know much about bears, although we now get black bears walking thru our yard. (semi-rural area) This was unheard of a few years ago. Human nature, I do observe thou. While on a TOUR BUS thru Denali we came upon a large (I think) Brown Bear sniffing a road grader parked along the road. The Driver demanded we be silent, so we just watched the most self confident creature I've ever seen. Two CAMERA GEEKS on the bus wanted to be let out a short distance away. The driver said the rule was 2 miles. They got out, planning to walk back to photograph the bear.
Phil, bless you for putting up with us. I don't claim to know much about bears, although we now get black bears walking thru our yard. (semi-rural area) This was unheard of a few years ago. Human nature, I do observe thou. While on a TOUR BUS thru Denali we came upon a large (I think) Brown Bear sniffing a road grader parked along the road. The Driver demanded we be silent, so we just watched the most self confident creature I've ever seen. Two CAMERA GEEKS on the bus wanted to be let out a short distance away. The driver said the rule was 2 miles. They got out, planning to walk back to photograph the bear.
That bus tour through Denali NP is a fantastic way for tourists to really see a lot of wildlife in a spectacular setting.
I don't think animals spend much time analyzing their motives. I always imagined that if detailed communication were possible, they'd say. "I did what I did because that's what I do."
Caution, vigilance, and acknowledging that unpredictability trump's expertise is likely a good frame of mind well in the lair's shadow.
Hi folks,
If interested in the topics of bear maulings, the trilogy of books noted above by Dwayne (BC30) by James Shelton are a must-read. And not for the reasons one might expect, like avoidance and tactics.
Rather, Mr Shelton was ahead of his time by 50 years or more on bear management and policy. With our universities having been lost to the post-modernists as far back as perhaps the 1970’s, even if we correct their collectivist ways in the next 10-20 years it will take time to shake the anti-human ethos that has been reflected in our laws now.
Mr Shelton was using the terms “disinformation” and “misinformation” long before the corrupted media of today. His take on policy alone is worth the read.
Good on ya Dwayne for linking Shelton’s work!
Buffy