On game performance is what I'm asking about. On paper there is hardly any difference, recoil is about the same. I am talking of partitions and barnes x, factory loads. Use will be alaskan caribou and western elk and someday moose. Should I just see what shoots the best and go with that. Whats been your experience?
Some won't agree, but heavier is always better in my opinion
See what your gun likes best and use that bullet. However for something really big like a moose, I'd personally want the heaviest bullet your rifle shot well.
I tend to agree with Saddlesore. Plus over the years and biggame I've killed (and cut up, myself), I like bigger, heavier boolits that cause less bloodshot than speedy explosive slugs and their hydrostatic effects. 2700fps from a .30/06 shooting 180's is plenty. 2600fps from an '06 propelling 200grainers might not be bad either.
I tend to agree with Saddlesore. Plus over the years and biggame I've killed (and cut up, myself), I like bigger, heavier boolits that cause less bloodshot than speedy explosive slugs and their hydrostatic effects. 2700fps from a .30/06 shooting 180's is plenty. 2600fps from an '06 propelling 200grainers might not be bad either.
Use 180 Nosler Partitions behind a max book load of H4350 and don't look back. This will work on everything from deer to moose and because it is a Partition, it will "open up and terminate". My Remington 700 SPS SS 30-06 groups them at .72 MOA off the bench and the crony says 2810 fps. Never had anything walk away from a 180.
You have plenty of time to work up a load from each weight then use the weight that will match the live weight of your quarry.I like to use 200 grain TSX from my 300WSM (2800 fps)
Handwerk, I load a 180 NP for most stuff. A 165 TSX will do the same and kicks less (IME there's a small but noticeable difference recoil-wise between the two). Still, I mostly prefer 180's in the 30-06.
With dots and a LRF a 180 NP at 2,750 - 2,800 will do anything that needs doing way out...
With dots and a LRF a 180 NP at 2,750 - 2,800 will do anything that needs doing way out...
In the good old days of the last century when I got my first '06 about all we had for factory .30-'06 ammo were 180 grain and 220 grain loads ( ah, pass those Peters Belted shells, please). Then we got the 150 grain factory loads. The 165 grain was not available as a hunting bullet for some years, and only really got going after people started shooting animals with target bullets. I started reloading to get 165 grain loads for my '06.
Of course there have been serious developments in hunting rifle bullets in the last two decades, and you can do things with a .308/165 gr bullet that people would only try with the 180 gr load. Of course you can do it with 150 grain super premiums now too.
In the old days of cup and core bullets you needed weight in the bullet to ensure penetration, now we seemingly have the best of both.
I would shoot both bullets in the rifle and see what works best for you. I have a NULA .30-'06 being built though, and I already have some Nosler Custom Ammo in 165 gr Partition waiting to go hunting.
Although the Nosler Partition is the oldest premium bulet, every time I shoot an animal with one I appreciate the subtlety of the design more.
If you really want to split hairs and have a magic load for other to envy, try the 200 gr NP in your '06.
jim
Of course there have been serious developments in hunting rifle bullets in the last two decades, and you can do things with a .308/165 gr bullet that people would only try with the 180 gr load. Of course you can do it with 150 grain super premiums now too.
In the old days of cup and core bullets you needed weight in the bullet to ensure penetration, now we seemingly have the best of both.
I would shoot both bullets in the rifle and see what works best for you. I have a NULA .30-'06 being built though, and I already have some Nosler Custom Ammo in 165 gr Partition waiting to go hunting.
Although the Nosler Partition is the oldest premium bulet, every time I shoot an animal with one I appreciate the subtlety of the design more.If you really want to split hairs and have a magic load for other to envy, try the 200 gr NP in your '06.
jim
I shoot 168 gr TSX bullets in all my 30 calibre rifles. They include as of today, a Sako Av 300 win mag, a Kimber 308 and a Sako 75 30-06, I haven't found any reason to go to a heavier bullet.
HJ - interested to see you mention the old Peters Belted. It seemed to me like it was a good design that sort of was before its time. Would like to hear what people have to say about it. Best, John
I have a 30-06 and I'm working on the question of the 165/180g right now. A few years ago, there'd have been no question that the answer would have been the traditional, the 180. After reading a bit of JJHACK's extensive experience with the 165, though, I no longer am so sure... The 130g 270 is clearly effective - the 165 in the .30 should have similar effects in a larger diameter.
Jaywalker
Jaywalker
My observation is, as a general rule, bullets with a higher Sd tend to perform more consistently at the terminal end. Of course there can be other considerations. An 06 has to work really hard to acheive 2800fps with a 180gr--and will often be closer to 2700fps. A 165 gr can often get a tad over 2900fps. Take your pick--usually the best choice is the one that shoots best.........
Casey
Casey
I'm generally a "heavy for" guy and the 180 in the '06 is no exception.
I know people use lighter weight bullets up the 200gr. offerings as well and are quite successful year after year, but I've had very good luck with both accuracy and terminal performance with 180gr. pills....specifically..NP's.
I expect that the 165/168 TSX would be a fine combination with the '06, but many elk and deer that I personally have known, will attest to the effectiveness of the 180gr. NP's sent there way out of the 'ole '06.
YMMV....but I'd bet it won't.
I know people use lighter weight bullets up the 200gr. offerings as well and are quite successful year after year, but I've had very good luck with both accuracy and terminal performance with 180gr. pills....specifically..NP's.
I expect that the 165/168 TSX would be a fine combination with the '06, but many elk and deer that I personally have known, will attest to the effectiveness of the 180gr. NP's sent there way out of the 'ole '06.
YMMV....but I'd bet it won't.
My wife and I have shot a lot of game with various "premium" 165-180 grain bullets in the .30-06. I have yet to see a signficant difference. The list of game includes a pile of deer, black bear, elk, caribou, and various plains game species in Africa from 350 pounds up to 700 or so.
I have used 200-grain Nosler Partition a lot in the .30-06 and .300 Magnums, mostly for elk, and except for end-on shots they have always completely penetrated--not always the case with lighter bullets.
But the longer I hunt the less I am beginning to think an exit hole is necessary. Have killed too many animals very quickly with bullets that "only" penetrated to under the hide on the far side, including moose taken with the .270 and 7x57. In fact I have not seen much difference in how the 130 and 150 .270 bullets, and 165 and 180 .30-06 if of the same basic construction.
One of the great mysteries of life: In the past 60 years we have seen the introduction of a great many "premium" bullets that penetrate deeply and reliably. But somehow many of us still insist on heavier bullets and, yes, the same heavyweight cartridges that were found advisable back in the days of mostly mediocre bullets.
John Barsness
I have used 200-grain Nosler Partition a lot in the .30-06 and .300 Magnums, mostly for elk, and except for end-on shots they have always completely penetrated--not always the case with lighter bullets.
But the longer I hunt the less I am beginning to think an exit hole is necessary. Have killed too many animals very quickly with bullets that "only" penetrated to under the hide on the far side, including moose taken with the .270 and 7x57. In fact I have not seen much difference in how the 130 and 150 .270 bullets, and 165 and 180 .30-06 if of the same basic construction.
One of the great mysteries of life: In the past 60 years we have seen the introduction of a great many "premium" bullets that penetrate deeply and reliably. But somehow many of us still insist on heavier bullets and, yes, the same heavyweight cartridges that were found advisable back in the days of mostly mediocre bullets.
John Barsness
I wish I could say I have tons of first hand kill experience, but I do not based on I am an archer mostly and kill more paper with rifles than game, but on paper and in the field I doubt you would see a whole lot of differance out to the normal 300-yards and with NP, AB, IB, X, etc. Most are running 180's around 2750 and 165's around 2850. There is veru little differance in the numbers. I say shoot the one that groups best unless 600+ lb game is your primary target. My uneducated look on it. It is funny how much we all spend so many calories splitting hairs. It sure is fun though!
Funny how a 225 gr bullet in a 35 Whelen is the cat's meow, but a 220 gr in an.06 is not, and they are about both ballistically equivalent. I still insist, if you will, on heavier bullets becasue they still work for me after many years. Sorta of a "If it's not broke, it doesn't need fixed kind of thing"
Why should one buy into the premium bullet hype, if every time they bust a cap, an elk still falls over and doesn't run off any distances when shot at 20 yds to 400.
Why should one buy into the premium bullet hype, if every time they bust a cap, an elk still falls over and doesn't run off any distances when shot at 20 yds to 400.
Alpine-
The S.D. "rule" applies more aptly when you are shooting bullets of similar construction. Here, a 180-gr Nos Part which loses 40% of its mass probably won't out penetrate a 168-gr TSX because it loses little if any significant weight. This is assuming of course similar speeds and hits.
Back when I did my wet, packed newspaper penetration tests with my .340, the 225-gr Nos Part was out-penetrated by the first generation Barnes X of 210 grains and significantly more by the 225-gr Barnes X.
This is not an indictment of the Nos Part but just points out their different construction and how S.D. does not automatically corrolate with greater penetration.
The S.D. "rule" applies more aptly when you are shooting bullets of similar construction. Here, a 180-gr Nos Part which loses 40% of its mass probably won't out penetrate a 168-gr TSX because it loses little if any significant weight. This is assuming of course similar speeds and hits.
Back when I did my wet, packed newspaper penetration tests with my .340, the 225-gr Nos Part was out-penetrated by the first generation Barnes X of 210 grains and significantly more by the 225-gr Barnes X.
This is not an indictment of the Nos Part but just points out their different construction and how S.D. does not automatically corrolate with greater penetration.
A 165 X-type would do plenty. My opinion, is that with the X-type, it is better to use a shorter bullet (hence lighter) at a higher velocity, as I think they might have less tendency to tumble in the animal and come out shank first. The shorter expanded bullet leaves less shank with a bigger head, kind of like a typically mushroomed bullet. On a 180 X-type, the shank is so long that I think the expanded bullet is somewhat unbalanced.
I doubt any animal you shoot could tell whether it was a 180 or a 165 that got it. Back in the days when the 06 was king and Speers #7 manual was fresh off the printers, they stated flatly that the 165 gr bullet was probably the most useful allaround bullet in the 06.
I had been told the same thing by elders that knew, so that's what I shot in the 06. Never had an elk ,deer or antelope complain it wasn't enough bullet. On broadside elk 200 yds or so a hit just behind the shoulders generally means a complete pass thru, a hit in the shoulder will usually be a lump under the hide on the far shoulder, and a purtnear dead on the spot elk.
Never did manage to keep a 165 in a deer, course I never shot one in the hindquarter either.
You have it figured right when you ask about using the bullet that shoots best in your rifle.
I had been told the same thing by elders that knew, so that's what I shot in the 06. Never had an elk ,deer or antelope complain it wasn't enough bullet. On broadside elk 200 yds or so a hit just behind the shoulders generally means a complete pass thru, a hit in the shoulder will usually be a lump under the hide on the far shoulder, and a purtnear dead on the spot elk.
Never did manage to keep a 165 in a deer, course I never shot one in the hindquarter either.
You have it figured right when you ask about using the bullet that shoots best in your rifle.
Originally Posted by goodnews
Alpine-
The S.D. "rule" applies more aptly when you are shooting bullets of similar construction. Here, a 180-gr Nos Part which loses 40% of its mass probably won't out penetrate a 168-gr TSX because it loses little if any significant weight. This is assuming of course similar speeds and hits.
Back when I did my wet, packed newspaper penetration tests with my .340, the 225-gr Nos Part was out-penetrated by the first generation Barnes X of 210 grains and significantly more by the 225-gr Barnes X.
This is not an indictment of the Nos Part but just points out their different construction and how S.D. does not automatically corrolate with greater penetration.
The S.D. "rule" applies more aptly when you are shooting bullets of similar construction. Here, a 180-gr Nos Part which loses 40% of its mass probably won't out penetrate a 168-gr TSX because it loses little if any significant weight. This is assuming of course similar speeds and hits.
Back when I did my wet, packed newspaper penetration tests with my .340, the 225-gr Nos Part was out-penetrated by the first generation Barnes X of 210 grains and significantly more by the 225-gr Barnes X.
This is not an indictment of the Nos Part but just points out their different construction and how S.D. does not automatically corrolate with greater penetration.
Mindful there are no "hard and fast rules", I understand the differences between how a TSX is designed vs a Partition. My experience is that bullets with higher Sd tend to be more consistent in regards to terminal performance on game. There seems to be many factors that occur between ballistic gel and wet or dry newspapers/phonebooks, logs, etc, and when a bullet hits a critter.
Between my own elk, family, friends and guiding, I guesstimate I've witnessed a 100 or so elk killed in the past 40+ years.
Velocity may have a lot to do with it, but higher Sd, driven at reasonable velocities seem to perform more often in a manner I expect. I have seen lower weight/Sd bullets (often being driven at higher velocities) perform in a unexpected manner on the critter.
Most of my personal experience has been with 150, 160, 180gr bullets in 270W, 280Rem/7mmRM, and 30-06/30-06AI. These bullets are ballistic triplets of one another and are normally driven in a fairly narrow velocity range. When I see lighter bullets driven at velocities approaching hyper-velocities, sometimes they produce spectacular kills, sometimes they don't do what one expects.
As has been pointed out by others before, the true test of a bullet is when we're shooting at something up close and personal and as I have expounded on before--that's where one will most likely find his elk.
Sd isn't just about penetration, it appears to me to be also how "straight" the bullet tracks through critter, does it consistently penetrate roughly the same distance each time?--given similar impact velocities; Does it retain weight consistently? (I don't care whether it retains a lot of weight or not--it's the consistency I'm looking at); If does hit bone--was its penetration and weight retention consistent with other similar kills? ;Or if it doesn't hit bone--was it consistent with other shots that didn't hit bone?
Mule Deer has pointed out that penetration has a lot to do with frontal area--the frontal area of a 165gr TSX isn't much different from the frontal area of 180gr Partiton once they are recovered. They differ in how they "mushroom".
I have a container full of bullets I've taken out of my own elk over the years, out of all my Partitions--from 100gr 243's to a bunch of 150gr 270's, to a number of 180gr and 200gr from my 06's and 06AI, they look almost identical. The differences between those recovered bullets are usually the whether the bullet hit bone or not. When I look at my lower wieght bullets--of similar construction--they are not nearly as consistent in appearance or weight retention. That has been my observation when dissecting other hunters elk kills too.
Casey
Originally Posted by alpinecrick
Originally Posted by goodnews
Alpine-
The S.D. "rule" applies more aptly when you are shooting bullets of similar construction. Here, a 180-gr Nos Part which loses 40% of its mass probably won't out penetrate a 168-gr TSX because it loses little if any significant weight. This is assuming of course similar speeds and hits.
Back when I did my wet, packed newspaper penetration tests with my .340, the 225-gr Nos Part was out-penetrated by the first generation Barnes X of 210 grains and significantly more by the 225-gr Barnes X.
This is not an indictment of the Nos Part but just points out their different construction and how S.D. does not automatically corrolate with greater penetration.
The S.D. "rule" applies more aptly when you are shooting bullets of similar construction. Here, a 180-gr Nos Part which loses 40% of its mass probably won't out penetrate a 168-gr TSX because it loses little if any significant weight. This is assuming of course similar speeds and hits.
Back when I did my wet, packed newspaper penetration tests with my .340, the 225-gr Nos Part was out-penetrated by the first generation Barnes X of 210 grains and significantly more by the 225-gr Barnes X.
This is not an indictment of the Nos Part but just points out their different construction and how S.D. does not automatically corrolate with greater penetration.
Mindful there are no "hard and fast rules", I understand the differences between how a TSX is designed vs a Partition. My experience is that bullets with higher Sd tend to be more consistent in regards to terminal performance on game. There seems to be many factors that occur between ballistic gel and wet or dry newspapers/phonebooks, logs, etc, and when a bullet hits a critter.
Between my own elk, family, friends and guiding, I guesstimate I've witnessed a 100 or so elk killed in the past 40+ years.
Velocity may have a lot to do with it, but higher Sd, driven at reasonable velocities seem to perform more often in a manner I expect. I have seen lower weight/Sd bullets (often being driven at higher velocities) perform in a unexpected manner on the critter.
Most of my personal experience has been with 150, 160, 180gr bullets in 270W, 280Rem/7mmRM, and 30-06/30-06AI. These bullets are ballistic triplets of one another and are normally driven in a fairly narrow velocity range. When I see lighter bullets driven at velocities approaching hyper-velocities, sometimes they produce spectacular kills, sometimes they don't do what one expects.
As has been pointed out by others before, the true test of a bullet is when we're shooting at something up close and personal and as I have expounded on before--that's where one will most likely find his elk.
Sd isn't just about penetration, it appears to me to be also how "straight" the bullet tracks through critter, does it consistently penetrate roughly the same distance each time?--given similar impact velocities; Does it retain weight consistently? (I don't care whether it retains a lot of weight or not--it's the consistency I'm looking at); If does hit bone--was its penetration and weight retention consistent with other similar kills? ;Or if it doesn't hit bone--was it consistent with other shots that didn't hit bone?
Mule Deer has pointed out that penetration has a lot to do with frontal area--the frontal area of a 165gr TSX isn't much different from the frontal area of 180gr Partiton once they are recovered. They differ in how they "mushroom".
I have a container full of bullets I've taken out of my own elk over the years, out of all my Partitions--from 100gr 243's to a bunch of 150gr 270's, to a number of 180gr and 200gr from my 06's and 06AI, they look almost identical. The differences between those recovered bullets are usually the whether the bullet hit bone or not. When I look at my lower wieght bullets--of similar construction--they are not nearly as consistent in appearance or weight retention. That has been my observation when dissecting other hunters elk kills too.
Casey
Amen. Preach it, brother.
_
I string along with the 165's.I've used or seen used,the 165 and 180 Partitions on stuff from elk on down;on the elk both the bullets are usually balled up in the off-side hide if they hit shoulder bone or a lot of shoulder muscle.Through the ribs they sometimes exit,depending on distance,velocity,etc.I would expect things like like the X bulets to give even deeper penetration in the 165 gr weight.On deer and black bear size stuff we noticed that it was hard to keep a 165 Partition in the animal;pass-throughs were common.Two other bullets displaying similar characteristics are the 140 and 160 7mm partitions,for some reason.Some will argue with me here but I prefer the somewhat flatter trajectory of the 165's.Started at about 2900 fps and zeroed +3 at 100, they are only about 4" down at 300 yards from my rifle.I have not used 180's in the 30/06 in years.With todays premium bullets in 165,I doubt you will see any difference.I would not hesitate to shoot anything in North America, including moose and griz with a good 165 from a 30/06.
FWIW:
All of what has been said above it good.
My rifle solved this problem for me.
180 NP's were 1.75" groups at 100 and could not realiably hit the 9 inch gong at 285 yards (longest shot availalble at my home range).
150 TSX = 0.50" groups at 100, and 21 hits on the gong out of 21 shots.
The point is that we should not sweat this bullet stuff too much without "talking" to our rifle.
I am gonna see if'n I can get the 168 TSX to shoot, next, if not, I will stay with the 150s.
BMT
All of what has been said above it good.
My rifle solved this problem for me.
180 NP's were 1.75" groups at 100 and could not realiably hit the 9 inch gong at 285 yards (longest shot availalble at my home range).
150 TSX = 0.50" groups at 100, and 21 hits on the gong out of 21 shots.
The point is that we should not sweat this bullet stuff too much without "talking" to our rifle.
I am gonna see if'n I can get the 168 TSX to shoot, next, if not, I will stay with the 150s.
BMT
"talking to our rifle" I like that!
Personally I am from the camp of speak with your rifle and see what it likes, preferably it is a preme bullet and just use one bullet one weight for all comers.
Mark D
Personally I am from the camp of speak with your rifle and see what it likes, preferably it is a preme bullet and just use one bullet one weight for all comers.
Mark D
I would shoot whatever was most accurate, I guess-
That being said, I would prefer a 180gr slug for Elk(Nosler partition
)
That being said, I would prefer a 180gr slug for Elk(Nosler partition
)
BMT - my model 70 really likes to shoot the 168 TSX - I would definitely give it a try. Best, John
Will do. Its hard to walk away from the 150s though. Man-oman, they shoot good.
BMT
BMT
If I had more gumption I'd apply all the amazing knowledge available on this board about the latest lighter weight, premium bullets. But my custom 30-06 shoots the 180 gr. Partition @ 2750 mv so well, and I've been shooting that load for so long it's become second nature, and animals I keep aiming at just keep dying, that I'll just stay with it and keep on hunting.
tho my hats off to all you experimenters....
tho my hats off to all you experimenters....
Originally Posted by Puddle
If I had more gumption I'd apply all the amazing knowledge available on this board about the latest lighter weight, premium bullets. But my custom 30-06 shoots the 180 gr. Partition @ 2750 mv so well, and I've been shooting that load for so long it's become second nature, and animals I keep aiming at just keep dying, that I'll just stay with it and keep on hunting.
tho my hats off to all you experimenters....
tho my hats off to all you experimenters....
And my hat is off to you for staying with what works and not farting around with all the other ballistic gack of the world!Mark D
+1 No critter will ever know the difference.
You like ballistic gack,too... 
Alpine-
Good post! You've obviously had a lot of experience and I agree with you; wasn't intending to teach or preach if you took it up that way.
George
Good post! You've obviously had a lot of experience and I agree with you; wasn't intending to teach or preach if you took it up that way.
George
Dober: looked up "gack" on dictionary.com and got the following definition:
"the sound of a cat coughing up a hairball"
don't even want to ASK what "ballistic gack" might be..
"the sound of a cat coughing up a hairball"
don't even want to ASK what "ballistic gack" might be..
Originally Posted by southtexas
don't even want to ASK what "ballistic gack" might be..
Ballistic Gack is like the sound one one cat puking and nearly as useful
An alternate definition is it's the Sputum that fuels the Campfire.
I was a big 180 grain fan until I tried 165 grainers and found I got all the devastation with less recoil. I now shoot 165 Hornady SP Interloks in all my 30-06's and 308 Win deer rifles.
It's really what you rifle likes the best. I might go back to 180 grain if I got a chance at an elk or a moose, but that's not likely.
It's really what you rifle likes the best. I might go back to 180 grain if I got a chance at an elk or a moose, but that's not likely.
shaman,
If you were to switch to a 150 grain in a stout bullet, such as a Partition or TSX or even a bonded, you'd probably sing the same basic tune. The recoil is lighter and the deer die just as fast, with good penetration to boot.
At least that's what I found when switching from 180s on down the scale over time to where I am now at, which is a 130 grain TSX.
If you were to switch to a 150 grain in a stout bullet, such as a Partition or TSX or even a bonded, you'd probably sing the same basic tune. The recoil is lighter and the deer die just as fast, with good penetration to boot.
At least that's what I found when switching from 180s on down the scale over time to where I am now at, which is a 130 grain TSX.
I think that is what fuels most of the fires around here.
Everybody has a different definition of "big game".
To 95% of us big game is whitetail deer. Most bullets/cartridges from 30/30 on up will do just fine.
For others big game means bigger heavier animals and deer rifles with light weight may or may not cut the mustard depending on lots of variables. I wrote Bob Hagel a letter many years ago and he replied that my 35 Whelen would be Ok for elk with the 225 gr Partition but he would prefer a 250 gr.
He also said if I used my 30-06 for elk he suggested I try the 200 gr Partition because it would outperform the 180 gr.
whelennut
Everybody has a different definition of "big game".
To 95% of us big game is whitetail deer. Most bullets/cartridges from 30/30 on up will do just fine.
For others big game means bigger heavier animals and deer rifles with light weight may or may not cut the mustard depending on lots of variables. I wrote Bob Hagel a letter many years ago and he replied that my 35 Whelen would be Ok for elk with the 225 gr Partition but he would prefer a 250 gr.
He also said if I used my 30-06 for elk he suggested I try the 200 gr Partition because it would outperform the 180 gr.
whelennut
My own experience with the 165 - 180 grain .30-06 bullets was approached from the other direction than most. I used various 150 grain bullets for years (mostly on whitetail deer) and was very pleased......until I began to handload for a particular .30-06 rifle.
This rifle was an oddball in that unlike most I have used, it's most accurate loads were NOT slightly below maximum. In fact, it's very best accuracy came with loads that were borderline rediculous. The hotter I loaded it, the better it shot. I finally settled on a safe, but very hot load that pushed a 150 grain slug at just over 3100 fps....and got groups just over 1/4" at 100 yards.
That's where the trouble began. The same 150 grain slugs that had performed so well at 2800-2900 fps suddenly began to come apart when velosities went above 3000. I faced a choice....either drop the velosity (and lose accuracy) or find another bullet. The sulution, for me, was to go to the 165 grain bullet. At 2900 fps, they performed as well as the old reliable 150's had and gave even better penetration.
Later I tried several 180 grain slugs on heavier game (mostly hogs in the 300-400 pound range, but also the occational elk and one memorable buffalo). At 2800 fps, there was a small, but definite, advantage to the 180's over the 165 grain bullets as far as penetration was concerned when animals over 250 pounds were the target. For a dedicated elk - moose rifle, the 180's would definitely be my choice....while the 165's would be better for lighter game such as deer due to a slightly flatter trajectory.
The "secret" is the velosity range of each bullet.
I will say up front that I am somewhat traditional in my veiws about bullets. I like bullets made with a lead core. I will use, and like, the various "bonded core" bullets for tougher game, but distrust any "gimic" bullet that relies on "magic" construction techniques or exotic materials (the Nosler Partition being the lone exception). I have tried the various "alphabet" bullets made of depleted uranium, titanium, fallen meteor material.....or whatever else that is a non-lead core....and find them to be eratic and unreliable in their performance. Some love the various "XYZ" bullets but, for me, there is no replacement for the old, reliable, dependable lead core slug.
Call me old fashioned, out-of-touch, or whatever, but that's my opinion.
That said......there is a velosity range that seems to be "perfect" for traditional constructed bullets. At 2700-2900 fps they perform wonderfully, but push them any faster and you begin to get erratic expantion and penetration. Sometimes they work.....sometimes not. For a hot-loaded .30-06, the 165 and 180 grain bullets fall into this "perfect" range. Both work well with a slight advantage going to the 180 for "heavy" work. In the .300 Magnums, even the 165 may be too light (too fast) and the 180 or even 200 grain slugs be the best choice.
The secret isn't in a particular bullet weight, but is the "balance" needed to make the bullet do it's best work. That will vary according to the velosity range of each cartridge.
This rifle was an oddball in that unlike most I have used, it's most accurate loads were NOT slightly below maximum. In fact, it's very best accuracy came with loads that were borderline rediculous. The hotter I loaded it, the better it shot. I finally settled on a safe, but very hot load that pushed a 150 grain slug at just over 3100 fps....and got groups just over 1/4" at 100 yards.
That's where the trouble began. The same 150 grain slugs that had performed so well at 2800-2900 fps suddenly began to come apart when velosities went above 3000. I faced a choice....either drop the velosity (and lose accuracy) or find another bullet. The sulution, for me, was to go to the 165 grain bullet. At 2900 fps, they performed as well as the old reliable 150's had and gave even better penetration.
Later I tried several 180 grain slugs on heavier game (mostly hogs in the 300-400 pound range, but also the occational elk and one memorable buffalo). At 2800 fps, there was a small, but definite, advantage to the 180's over the 165 grain bullets as far as penetration was concerned when animals over 250 pounds were the target. For a dedicated elk - moose rifle, the 180's would definitely be my choice....while the 165's would be better for lighter game such as deer due to a slightly flatter trajectory.
The "secret" is the velosity range of each bullet.
I will say up front that I am somewhat traditional in my veiws about bullets. I like bullets made with a lead core. I will use, and like, the various "bonded core" bullets for tougher game, but distrust any "gimic" bullet that relies on "magic" construction techniques or exotic materials (the Nosler Partition being the lone exception). I have tried the various "alphabet" bullets made of depleted uranium, titanium, fallen meteor material.....or whatever else that is a non-lead core....and find them to be eratic and unreliable in their performance. Some love the various "XYZ" bullets but, for me, there is no replacement for the old, reliable, dependable lead core slug.
Call me old fashioned, out-of-touch, or whatever, but that's my opinion.
That said......there is a velosity range that seems to be "perfect" for traditional constructed bullets. At 2700-2900 fps they perform wonderfully, but push them any faster and you begin to get erratic expantion and penetration. Sometimes they work.....sometimes not. For a hot-loaded .30-06, the 165 and 180 grain bullets fall into this "perfect" range. Both work well with a slight advantage going to the 180 for "heavy" work. In the .300 Magnums, even the 165 may be too light (too fast) and the 180 or even 200 grain slugs be the best choice.
The secret isn't in a particular bullet weight, but is the "balance" needed to make the bullet do it's best work. That will vary according to the velosity range of each cartridge.
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any difference between 165 and 180 grainers in 30'06
....... about 15 grains, if my math is right. If it sounds insignificant, it's because it is. Construction matters waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more than 15 grains of weight.
I talk to my 30-06's from time to time. However I let them talk BACK to me and dictate what to use for my elk recipe. The 180 NP's usually win out.
Comparing 165 and 180 grain bullets of the same construction, the 180 grainer will penetrate deeper. Big news flash, eh? When using bullets of 'standard' jacketed lead core construction, I prefer the 180 grainer.
My wife and I both shot deer last year with 165 grain Speer Hot-Cors, both from rifles chambered in 308 Win. Neither exited. Yes, both deer died (ho-hum). In 180 grain weight, this make/model of bullet has never failed to exit deer from any of my 30-06s.
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My wife and I both shot deer last year with 165 grain Speer Hot-Cors, both from rifles chambered in 308 Win. Neither exited. Yes, both deer died (ho-hum). In 180 grain weight, this make/model of bullet has never failed to exit deer from any of my 30-06s.
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